Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 4

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 32 (GARDA SIOCHANA).

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. O'Higgins)

I beg to move:—

"That a sum, not exceeding £732,899, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to defray the salaries and expenses of the Gárda Síochána [Gárda Síochána (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923.]"

This is an estimate of £1,167,899, the amount required for the year ending 31st March, 1925, to defray the charge for the salaries and expenses of the Gárda Síochána. The Estimate shows an increase of close on £20,000 as compared with last year. The exact figures are £19,960. The principal increases are:—Sub-head (A), which covers salaries, wages and pay, an increase of £25,984; sub-head (B), allowances, an increase of £16,500; sub-head (I), covering incidental expenses, an increase of £2,900; sub-head (K), telegrams and telephones, an increase of £6,000. In certain other sub-heads savings have been effected. For instance, under sub-head (E), covering clothing, there is a saving of £1,950; a saving of £15,000 under sub-head (H), barrack bedding and furniture. That particular saying is rather apparent than real, because it arises from the fact that the charge for furniture is now borne by the Vote of the Office of Public Works. A saving has been effected under (J) of £2,800 for transport.

It might tend to shorten discussion and to give more satisfactory information to Deputies if I went briefly through the various sub-heads under which this Vote is accounted for. Dealing with (A), last year we estimated for the following strength:—161 officers, 907 sergeants, and 4,119 Guards; a total of 5,187.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

This year we are estimating for 151 officers, 950 sergeants and 4,400 guards, making a total of 5,501. In the Bill which is at present before the Seanad the following maximum strength is laid down:—182 officers, 1,200 sergeants and 4,918 guards, a total of 6,300. On the 1st of May of the current year the strength was as follows:—143 officers, 929 sergeants and 4,027 guards, a total of 5,099. A substantial increase in Sub-head A., an increase of £25,984, is caused by the following factors: the increased strength estimated for, which I have just dealt with, and the increments falling due during the current year to all men who joined last year; and these two factors in themselves would account for an increase of £170,900. As against that a saving has been effected by the reduction of the rates of pay of £145,000, which leaves a net increase of £25,900. Last year we estimated for a number which we knew to be below the requirements of the normal strength of the Force, but at the same time we considered that those numbers were the maximum which could be conveniently trained and distributed throughout the country over that year, and consequently we did not estimate for any larger number. The progress in training and the provision of barrack accommodation throughout the country leaves us now in the position where we find it possible to estimate for the current year for an almost normal establishment. On the 1st April, 1923, the number of stations occupied in the country was 257. On the 1st May of the present year the total number of stations occupied was 756, and the distribution of these stations in the provinces was as follows: 236 in Leinster, 275 in Munster, 164 in Connaught, and 81 in Ulster. The number of stations which it is eventually proposed to establish is 837. It may be that in practice we will find that figure somewhat small, and it may be that from time to time, meeting reasonable requests from the inhabitants of particular areas, it will be necessary to establish perhaps anywhere between that figure and a total of 900. That figure, therefore, of 837 stations must be regarded simply as an approximation.

One fact to be kept in mind is that we are dealing with a new Force, and that consequently almost all the officers and men are at low points in their various scales of pay, and the charge for increments will continue to be felt for a number of years to come. The Pay Order reducing the pay of the Guards took effect as from the 1st March last. I do not propose, unless it is raised in a controversial way, to go in any great detail into the factors which rendered that reduction necessary, or certainly very advisable. I think the discussion which has preceded this Vote ought to render any defence of that particular step almost unnecessary.

Mr. JOHNSON

Why?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Because in a time of financial stringency, in a time of undoubted hardship and undoubted poverty amongst great sections of the people, it was not considered advisable to continue to pay the young men of this Force at the rate at which they were paid previous to the 1st March last. There has been a reduction in the pay of the members of the Force. There has also been a reduction in the pay of recruits in training, and I think that reduction was justifiable. There is really no case for paying raw material in training at the same rate as the finished article on duty. Men come up from the country for training in the Depôt. The training may take anything from two to three months, and we have established the principle that during that period of training men shall not be in receipt of the same rate of pay as when the training is completed, and when they are actually on duty.

With regard to the rates of pay, it is not proposed that these rates shall be subject to fluctuation for trifling changes in the cost of living. The new rates are based on a cost of living figure of 85 above pre-war, and they are intended to be applicable while the cost of living varies, from 70 at the lower limit to 100 at the higher limit, above pre-war. Consequently before there would be any reduction by reference to the cost of living, the cost of living figure would need to fall below 70. Recruits during the period of training at the Depôt will be paid at the rate of 50/- weekly. Generally, on this question of pay I would like to make this clear to Deputies, that the rates now fixed for sergeants and Guards represent increases of 145 and 160 per cent. respectively on the amount paid in 1914 to the corresponding ranks in the R.I.C.

Mr. DAVIN

Does the rate of 50/- include mess allowance?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

There is no mess allowance, strictly speaking. The recruits mess themselves. We have prepared a comparison of the cost of the Guards with other police forces in Ireland, and with those in the principal towns in England. The table is prepared on the basis of the annual cost, per head, of the population in the area which is served. The Gárda Síochána works out at 8/5; the Metropolitan Police at 15/7 per head of the population served; the Royal Ulster Constabulary, excluding the Specials, works out at 12/11; the Royal Ulster Constabulary, with the Specials included, at £1 10s. 4d.; the London Metropolitan Police at 19/10; the Liverpool Police at 15/8; and the Manchester Police at 12/7. Taking both police forces together, the Gárda Síochána and the Dublin Metropolitan Police, the rate is 9/5. That comparison would go to show that it can scarcely be contended that there is any waste of public money in the administration of police forces in the Saorstát. I ought to say that the disparity between the cost of the Metropolitan Police per head of the area served and the Gárda Síochana is accounted for by the fact that the Metropolitan Police figures include very heavy charges for pensions, while the other Vote has not yet become liable for any charge of that kind. In recruiting for the Guards, priority is given to application from ex-members of the National Forces who fulfil the required conditions, and by the 8th May 831 ex-members of the National Army had been accepted. That deals in a general way with sub-head (A). Moving to sub-head (B), the increase of £16,500, as compared with the last year, is due again to the greater strength estimated for, and to the filling of vacancies in the higher ranks. The rent allowances for officers are not set out in detail in the printed Estimate. They are at present under revision. The rates which are at present in force are as follows:—Chief superintendents, £80 per annum; superintendents, £60, and inspectors £36.

Rent allowance is not paid to any member of the Force occupying official quarters or for whose family quarters of that kind are available but not occupied. There is an increase in the figure for cycling allowance from £24,000 to £30,000. That increase is accounted for by the fact that every sergeant and guard who is not engaged on clerical duty is obliged to provide himself with a bicycle. We hope, by that means, to secure more frequent patrolling and to reduce the charges for subsistence allowance by lessening the time during which men will be absent from their stations. On that question of subsistence allowance, covered by sub-head (C), I only want to say that subsistence allowance is payable only where absence from a station exceeds 8 hours in the case of sergeants and guards, and 10 hours in the case of officers of higher rank. Then you have travelling expenses £20,000 under sub-head (D). The expenses of conveying prisoners are payable either by the county councils or by the General Prisons' Board, according as the expenses were incurred before or after committal. After committal the Prisons' Board bears the expense.

The figure for clothing is £28,050. Contracts for clothing are made by the Government Contracts' Committee. The system of issuing readymade suits of stock sizes to the Guards was found unsatisfactory, as they had frequently to be altered. It is proposed in future to issue unmade suits, cut in standard sizes, with the necessary trimmings to be made up by the local tailor. Each Guard receives an allowance of 15/- to cover the cost of making up the uniform.

Mr. JOHNSON

Does the Minister find the tailor?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

No; the Guard does that.

Mr. JOHNSON

For 15/-?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes. He is provided with the material, and he gets an allowance of 15/- for the making up of the uniform.

Mr. DAVIN

How much would it cost to make up a suit for the Minister?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I do not know really. I understand that it is not simply a question of issuing the cloth in the piece. The uniform is cut and ready to be sewn together at the seams and is issued in that way to the Guard. The work required from the local tailor is something quite trifling.

Mr. JOHNSON

Are the married men given the allowance, supposing that their wives do the work?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I expect they would get the 15/- in any case. In practice we find that it works out at about 6d. per uniform. In other words, we lose by the change to the extent of 6d. per uniform, but we consider that as a set-off against that, that the men present a smarter appearance. Occasionally, under the old system, you did meet with men who were rather unfortunate in the fit they got, and whose appearance certainly was not improved. Sub-head (F) deals with accoutrements. Owing to the large quantities of supplies taken over from the R.I.C., it is anticipated that the sum of £300 will be sufficient to meet all the requirements for the current year under this head. Then we come to barrack bedding and furniture—£1,000. Furniture, as I have stated, is paid for out of the Vote for the office of Public Works. It is estimated that £1,000 will be required to supply bedding for new stations and to meet deficiencies, but on the other hand a considerable amount of bedding, which is now in use in the Depôt, will be available for country stations when the training of recruits is completed at the Depôt. For fuel, light and water you have a sum of £15,000. Fuel and light allowances are admissible only in respect of the public rooms and offices at stations, and are not payable in respect of the private quarters of the men. The allowance varies according to the size of the station and the time of the year. You have a fixed rate for the summer months, and a somewhat different rate for the winter. Under sub-head (I) you have £5,900 for incidental expenses. The items which go to make up the sub-head are set out in detail in the Estimates themselves. The sum of £12,200 for transport under sub-head (J) contains a provision of £4,000 for the maintenance and running expenses of the headquarters transport. Five cars are reserved for the use of senior officers at head-quarters. The remainder are used for detective work, for the escort and conveyance of prisoners, for the conveyance of stores, etc., and for the carrying out of transfers.

The sum of £8,200 is included for repayable advances to officers of the Guard to enable them to purchase cars for the performance of their duties. There is a system of assisted purchase. Officers get advances, and they repay the money in instalments. The maximum advance is £200 in the case of a chief superintendent, and £130 in the case of a superintendent, subject to those conditions: "Advances are made for the purchase of cars only in those areas where the safety of the cars can be reasonably guaranteed. Each officer to whom an advance is made must enter into a bond to repay within 12 months. The cars are the property of the officers who are responsible for the cost of licensing, registration and garage accommodation."

Now, you have an item of £11,000 for telegrams and telephones, and that shows an increase of £6,000 on last year. It is due to the decision to instal telephones in all stations which are situated in districts already provided with a telephone service. About one-fourth of the existing stations are fitted with telephones. Deputies will remember that from time to time there appeared in the Press accounts of crimes which might more easily have been detected if there were better telephone facilities for the Guards in the areas in which such crimes occurred. One case was the Baltinglass bank robbery, in which Guard Halloran was killed. Under sub-head (L), which deals with the escort and conveyance of children under the Children's Act of 1908, you have an item of £600. The expenses which are chargeable to the Vote under that sub-head are the cost of escort and conveyance of children to certified industrial schools, and the cost of escort and conveyance of children or young persons to and from places of detention, including their removal from such places, and their restoration to the care of parents or guardians, under Section 106 of the Children's Act.

Finally, under sub-head (M), you have a sum of £1,000 for damage and loss. That is to meet the loss of private property of members of the Guard, maliciously destroyed in raids on barracks or in some other way. The sum of £2,000 which was provided for last year for this service was not found adequate, and it is considered necessary to make further provision in the current year for contingencies of that kind.

Mr. ESMONDE

This is not a permanent charge on this Vote?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is to be hoped it will not be a permanent charge. It is to meet the contingencies of members of the Force losing private property through malicious damage, and so on. I have a return here for seven months of the number of indictable offences reported in the Saorstát, exclusive of the Metropolitan area, and the number of cases in which arrests were effected. Taking the seven months from October, 1923, to April last, you have the following figures: October, 545 reported cases, and 228 arrests; November, 492 reported cases, and 201 arrests; December, 554 reported cases, and 253 arrests; January, 558 reported cases, and 291 arrests; February, 517 reported cases, and 244 arrests; March, 374 reported cases, and 141 arrests.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is not that St. Patrick's Day month?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

In April there were 329 reported cases and 120 arrests. In that period of seven months you had altogether 3,369 indictable offences reported, and you had 1,478 arrests. It is gratifying up to a point to note a downward tendency in the number of reported offences and a somewhat upward tendency in the number of arrests made. Generally, Deputies can take it that there is in the Ministry a certain quiet satisfaction as regards the manner in which the Guards are doing their duty. They went out in a very difficult period, and it was natural and reasonable to expect that for some time the reactions of their rawness and inexperience would be rather obvious. As a matter of fact, that side of things has not been so much in evidence at all.

Taking them in the bulk, they have acquitted themselves remarkably well, showing a steadiness and reliability that would do credit to a much older force. Cases of indiscretion or cases of individual members in any way showing inexperience or want of training, have been very, very few, indeed. We feel these men have definitely established themselves through the country, have won the respect and confidence and good-will of the people, and the amount of friendly co-operation they are receiving from the people is on the increase. People are coming to realise that those men are the servants of the State, are out through the country in the interests of the people who are not criminal, and are out for their protection and the protection of their property and the vindication of their rights.

I would like to see that feeling growing amongst the people, the realisation that these men are their officials and their servants, out simply to uphold the laws which may, from time to time, be made here by the people's representatives. I ask the Dáil to pass this Estimate, and I hope the explanations I have given of the increase may be considered.

Mr. DAVIN

I think that the method adopted by the Minister in introducing the Estimate, giving such a detailed explanation of the various items, is to be highly commended, especially to other Ministers who leave us to draw upon our imaginations as to what is the meaning of the different Votes. As one who has always looked upon it as being very undesirable, even under abnormal conditions, for police work to be done by the military, I welcome— and have on previous occasions welcomed—the extension and the development of the Guards. Speaking from my own knowledge of my own area, and from conversations I have had with people in the constituency, I can say that the character and general conduct of the Guards are to be very highly commended. In two or three cases I have come across complaints, justified, I think, made in regard to prosecutions that have been taken at the instigation of the Guards, especially in cases under the licensing laws.

I can quite understand that when the Guards were first sent out, without that education which under normal conditions they would receive in training, mistakes were likely to be made. I would urge on the Minister, however, in view of the new licensing laws that are now being discussed, and that are likely to be passed in some form or another, that it is very desirable that the Guards in every case should have a proper understanding of the licensing laws as they exist, or whenever they are amended. It is not nice to receive complaints or to see in the Press reports of prosecutions where the Guards have been turned down by the District Justice owing to lack of knowledge of the existing licensing laws. I think that is a matter, in view of the new Bill, that should be looked into and that directions either by the Minister or by the Commissioner should be given for the provision of facilities for more expert training in matters of that kind. I have received on some occasions complaints from individuals in my constituency with regard to robberies and, in one case, with regard to a murder. In cases of that kind the Guards may be blamed for not doing their duty.

In the cases I referred to I went to the parties concerned, whom I knew perfectly well could identify the robbers and could also have given evidence against the murderers in this particular case I have in mind. It was a case of a man who was murdered by people who wanted to rob him. He defended himself and was killed. He was one of the most respectable men in the County of Leix. The parties whom I approached with a view to getting them to give evidence, began to quake and shiver and could not get up their courage to identify the people who were responsible. If complaints are made against the Guards for not bringing to justice people who commit robberies and murders the fault and the responsibility are on the people who can give evidence but who will not. It is only when people have courage to come forward and assist the servants of the Government to punish criminals that these criminals will be taken from the path of the innocent citizens of the country. The Minister referred to allowances for the making of uniforms. I am interested in that matter because he said an allowance of 15/- is to be given to a Guard for the purpose of making a suit. It may be information to Deputy Hewat, who would probably justify items of this kind, that the charge made to me for making a suit, with the cloth supplied, is £3 15s.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think I explained that it is a question not merely of supplying the cloth out of which the suit is made but that the suit cut and ready for stitching is sent to the Guards and the local tailor deals with it.

Mr. DAVIN

I purchased the cloth in a wholesale place, and was charged £3 15s. by an individual for whom Deputy Hewat probably speaks in this House.

Mr. HEWAT

I am sure I do not speak for that particular gentleman.

Mr. DAVIN

The Deputy usually speaks in that way, as representing either the employers or the profiteers. I am not sure if it is necessary to move a reduction of the Vote, but I feel compelled to draw the attention of the Minister, for I hold him responsible, the matter being one of policy, to a condition of affairs which I do not think is creditable and should not be allowed to continue. That is the treatment given to members of the Guards who happen to be disbanded R.I.C. men as against the treatment meted out to resigned members of the R.I.C. and who are now in positions in the Civic Guard. I think that the Minister will agree that there should be the most absolute harmony between these two classes of individuals while in the service of the Guard. I have, as a matter of fact, the names of a number of individuals, but I will give one, as a case in point, of a disbanded R.I.C. man in the service of the Civic Guard who has a pension which is paid by the taxpayers of this country of £433 per annum, and who is in a position in the Guards which brings in £300 per annum, without taking into consideration the question of his pension. I believe it was stated by the late General Collins—I am certain it was, as I have the quotations in my possession— that members of the R.I.C. who resigned, and who could be proved to have resigned, through national sympathies, would get the same treatment as the men who served up to the time of disbandment. I suggest that the treatment meted out to the two classes I speak about is not fair. The resigned R.I.C. men to the number of 100 were compelled to join the Civic Guard. They received no gratuity or no compensation, although in most of these 100 cases the Committee which inquired into them granted a pension. As against that, the disbanded man comes into the Civic Guard carrying with him his full pension, and he is free, I understand, to leave the Force at any time. I contend that it is not fair to deny to the resigned R.I.C. man, whose case has been passed by the Committee and sanctioned by the Ministry of Finance, the receipt of his full pension and give a pension to the disbanded man which he receives under the Treaty, without taking into consideration the service in which he is now employed. I quote one case for the information of the House to show the treatment which is meted out to disbanded men as against the resigned men. If any service has been rendered to this State by one or other of these sections, it has been rendered by the man who resigned and who gave up everything he had, to respond to the call made at the time. I do not want to develop this, as I do not think it right to go too far into the matter, but that distinction should not be made. The Minister for Justice and the Minister for Finance are, however, responsible for this matter, which seems to me to be bad policy on the part of the Ministry.

It was stated at one time in this House—I am not sure whether it was by the Minister for Justice or the Minister for Finance, but it is immaterial—that pensions would not be granted to members of the R.I.C. who resigned for the reasons I have given, if suitable occupation could be found for them. I cannot trace, and I have looked into the matter very closely, any regulations issued by either the Minister for Justice or the Minister for Finance that the Civic Guard was considered a suitable occupation for resigned members of the R.I.C. If it is a suitable occupation, and if disbanded men are in the Civic Guard, as I am sure they are, for the development of the Civic Guard, surely resigned men are entitled to the same consideration and treatment. It is bad for the Force that resigned members of the R.I.C. should be called out in the Depôt Square to be drilled by disbanded men who are receiving pensions, while the resigned men are denied pensions, although it was admitted they were entitled to them. I propose to pursue this matter to the bitter end. I propose to raise it also on the Vote of the Minister for Finance, if satisfaction is not given and if the promises that were made by honourable men are not carried out in the letter and the spirit. I first drew attention to this question simply because I was associated in my school days with three individuals who resigned from the R.I.C. Deputies on this side of the House, including myself, are daily in receipt of communications complaining about the methods adopted by the Ministry of Finance—

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy cannot go into that matter on this Vote.

Mr. DAVIN

However, for other reasons, I can congratulate the Minister. I have failed to receive any kind of consideration for the complaints I have made, and the only method that was left to me was to raise the matter in the Dáil, where I feel I am entitled to some consideration.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

There is one matter that I particularly want to draw attention to on this Sub-head A, which I presume is now under discussion. Before doing so I would like to say we all have heard from various parts of the country of the doings of the Gárda Síochána, and we know that the praise that has been given to that body, specially in the circumstances, by the Minister for Justice is a praise that has been more than well deserved. The body has created in an abnormally short time a measure of trust and a measure of confidence in the people. It is a remarkable fact that this young Force, established under such painful circumstances, and under such difficult conditions, should so quickly have been able to put themselves into the position that the Minister can say here truly, and say to the knowledge of Deputies who are familiar with the conditions in the country, that this body is receiving the friendly co-operation of the people practically in every part of the country. That has been a credit that has been earned by the members of the Force themselves, both by those who have been in command, and not particularly by those who have been in command, but by the rank and file who have associated themselves with the people, and in carrying out their duties have shown a very considerable sense of discretion, coupled with discipline. I would like to join, in expressing my own personal appreciation, with the Minister who has chosen this occasion, in giving his introduction to this Vote, in according a praise that has been so highly earned.

The matter that I wanted to draw particular attention to on the first detail, "Salaries, Wages and Pay," was in regard to the Commissioner. The Commissioner, as we know, owing to troubles that have occurred in connection with the Army was moved over, and has been acting as General Inspecting Officer in the Army. I had rather expected that the Minister would have taken the opportunity to let us know how he stood in relation to the Civic Guard, and when he was likely to return to that work. I do not think that it is conducive to the discipline of this excellent body, and I do not think that it is conducive to the best interests of the State that the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána should be taken over for so long a time, while still being looked to by the Gárda Síochána as their Chief. I do not know what uniform he wears, but I presume he is wearing the uniform of the Army, and wearing the uniform of the Army in executing his work, if he is still executing his work, as I understand he is, in connection with the Gárda Síochána. I think that is not a good thing for either Force. The Minister himself, in moving this Vote, communicated that it had been judged desirable by him—a very courageous decision and a wise decision that has justified itself—to keep this Force as an unarmed Force.

I am bold to say but for that decision he would not have been able to have stood up in this Dáil and claimed that the Force was receiving the friendly co-operation of the people. I think that that friendly co-operation has been exercised very largely, because, for the first time, they have seen a Force that is in the true sense a police force, an unarmed force, depending upon the co-operation of the citizens for its effectiveness. That having been achieved in the way in which it has been achieved, I think it undesirable that the head of that Force should, while continuing to be the head of the Force, and looked to as the head of the Force, at the same time be the head of the Army. I think that will be appreciated, and I am sure it is the desire of the Minister that an anomaly of that kind should be ended at the earliest possible moment. I think this is the only time that we will have the opportunity of raising this matter. The Minister would, I think, be wise if he stated, now that the peculiar circumstances that called for the transference of the Commissioner to the special duty that he was called upon to exercise in the Army are ended, and we hope they have finally ended—in any case they have considerably mended— that occasion would be taken advantage of to call the Commissioner back to the Civic Guard and let the Commissioner of the Civic Guard be the Commissioner of the Civic Guard, not wearing military uniform and exercising military duties, so as to end the anomaly that has been created. If trouble should ever arise—we hope it will not—it should be remembered that it is not the best thing to do to call upon the Chief of one Force to become the Chief of another Force, while still maintaining his original position. I would like the Minister to state when that position is to be ended, and I would urge upon him that it be ended at the very earliest possible moment.

Major COOPER

I want to raise a question and I am not absolutely certain whether it should come up on this Vote or on the Vote for the Ministry of Justice. I refer to the failure to apprehend the perpetrators of the outrage at Cobh. I think that as the Gárda are responsible for the prevention of crime and the arrest of offenders outside the Metropolitan area, it probably should come up on this Vote. But if the Minister would prefer me not to raise it on this Vote and to leave it over until the Vote of his Ministry comes on, I will comply. Has the Minister any objection to my going on?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

None whatever.

Major COOPER

The outrage at Cobh did a very grievous injury to Ireland. Looking at it merely from the material point of view, it has cost us large sums for compensation, and it has inflicted enormous harm on our credit. Looking at it from the spiritual point of view, the harm is far deeper, and it is thrown in our faces by the enemies of Ireland. They throw that deed in our faces, and also the fact that the men who did it—the murderers—are still free and have not been arrested. I do not want to make anything in the nature of a party point or petty point against the Minister or the Gárda on this matter. We realise here some of the difficulties that attended them in dealing with this matter—the difficulties of apprehending criminals in a remote and wild district which they knew intimately and where some sections of the population, owing either to intimidation or to a mistaken sense of what they believed to be patriotism, were on their side. But the world does not know that, and I think it would be well if on this occasion the Minister could make some statement explaining why his hopes that these criminals would be arrested have not been fulfilled. I think everybody has felt a sense of deep responsibility in this matter and has not wished to press the Minister. But now it is more than three months since the thing happened. It is more than three months since the reward was offered. It is more than six weeks since the names of the men who were alleged to have committed the crime were published. Yet nothing has been done. Until those criminals are arrested and have been convicted in fair trial, there is a blot on the escutcheon of Ireland, and I know the Minister is as anxious as I am, or as any Deputy is, that that blot should be wiped out.

I leave that question in the hope that the Minister will say something about it, to associate myself with all that has been said in praise of the general conduct of the Gárda. For a young force they have done most amazingly well. They are smart, they are courteous, they appear to be efficient. The only criticism I have heard of them is that in one or two places they are not quite sure of themselves and are a little slow to act. That is a fault that time and experience will mend and in a policeman it is a better fault than excessive zeal. The only thing I am a little afraid of is that the Minister has placed a somewhat embarrassing burden on them by the regulation he spoke of, that every member of the Gárda must possess a bicycle. A bicycle is an excellent thing to pursue a criminal on and to apprehend him. But if you proceed to take the criminal to the barracks with one hand and to take the bicycle with the other if the criminal is at all fractious you will find yourself in a difficulty. I agree that there should be a bicycle or two bicycles in each barrack, but cycling, without a certain amount of foot patrol work, would be a mistake. Otherwise I think nobody in the Saorstát has anything but praise for the Gárda. They are already making their tradition. They have already, unfortunately begun a Roll of Honour, and we may be confident I think, from their past conduct, that the men who come into the Force in future will live up to the standard set by the men who died doing their duty. If I were asked to define the general conduct or attitude of the public to the Gárda throughout the Saorstát I would say: "Well the little children get on with them very well."

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

There are just two small points in connection with this Vote that I would like to have an explanation on. One is the question of Pension. Pension deductions appear on page 96 of the Estimate. I understand that there is a 2½ per cent. deduction made from the salary, or wages, of the Gárda for the purpose of a pension fund. That amount is estimated for this current year to be £24,781. Last year it was £24,000. I want to know whether this sum of £25,000 this year and £24,000 last year has been set aside and paid into a particular fund. I am speaking with a certain knowledge of an analogous case—the case of the teachers, who contribute 4 per cent. of their salaries for pension purposes. That sum is paid by the Education Department into a State Fund, from which the pensions of the teachers are afterwards provided. I do not see any such provision for the Gárda except it is shown in some other portion of these Estimates. As it appears here, it is simply a deduction and nothing more. I take it that it is the intention of the Department that this £24,000 should be used as the nucleus of a fund for providing pensions later on for the Gárda. I am not quite sure whether any pension scheme has yet been devised. I take it it is the intention of the Minister to devise a suitable pension scheme for the Gárda. They are young still. None of them is coming up to pensionable age, and none of them has pensionable service, but now is the time to make the provision. The matter touched on very briefly by Deputy Cooper reminds me about making an inquiry as to whether any provision is made in the case of men who are injured or who are killed in the execution of their duty. Is there any provision made for compensation in their case? There was a particular case I was interested in which was known very well to members of the Dáil. That was the case of Guard O'Halloran, killed at Baltinglass in the execution of his duty. He was a native of Gort, and was one of my constituents. I understand that application was made by his mother for some compensation, but that the Department was not in a position to award any compensation. I would like to know what is the position exactly in such cases, and also what provision, if any, is made in this Estimate for meeting even such necessary things as the funeral expenses in such cases. I have been looking over the Estimate casually and I have not been able to discover any such provision. I think it is only right and reasonable that such provision should be made. I should like to ask whether the Minister has had any complaints on that head as to the non-provision of such necessary expenses as I referred to.

Mr. ESMONDE

It strikes me that the Minister himself cannot escape from a very considerable share of the praise which all sections of the Dáil give most willingly with reference to the outstanding success of the establishment and working of the Gárda Síochána, as he has been mainly responsible for the success of what has been one of the outstanding accomplishments of the present administration. There is another matter which I would like to raise. That is, the present inadequate provision for the health and comfort of the Gárda. We have here in this Vote under sub-head (H) a sum of £15,000 for fuel, light and water. I know of stations where there is really no necessity to pay for water, as it not only comes in through the broken windows and roofs, but it also comes up through the floor. In these places, where, as the Minister said, the Gárda have already established themselves and have won the confidence of the people, the fact that they are not adequately provided for is looked upon as a local grievance by the people of the district. I would urge upon the Minister that he should exert all possible influence upon the other Departments concerned, such as the Office of Public Works, to see that, as soon as possible, they should get the Gárda permanently and adequately housed, particularly in the winter. In very many parts of the country it was not at all pleasant for the Gárda during the last winter.

There is another point which has often been mentioned, but how far rumour is true one cannot say; that is, whether the present personnel of the Board of Promotion is such as to inspire confidence in the Force. There have been rumours that there was not confidence in the personnel of that Board, and we would be glad to receive an assurance from the Minister that these rumours are not well founded.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

I am afraid the Minister will not believe me when I say that the appreciative references made to his presentation of this Estimate are very well deserved. However, I mean it. There are a few points in the Estimate which I would like to make reference to. The first is the method by which the Gárda acquire premises. I will give an instance to illustrate what I mean. In a town I know of, where the Gárda were stationed, they were housed for a considerable period. Then a house put up for auction was bought in the open market for £500 by a young man recently married. Within a week or fortnight the Gárda came along and took possession of the house, and this young couple had to go and seek accommodation elsewhere. That is clearly a grievance. I think there ought to be some other means adopted besides this reckless commandeering, shall I say, of premises required by the inhabitants of a district. I wish to emphasise what has been said by Deputy Davin regarding the exceptional treatment of the disbanded R.I.C. men as opposed to that given to resigned and dismissed R.I.C. men in the Gárda. I think that is one of the most glaring cases of bad policy evident in the management of the Force. It is peculiar that the men who risked everything to make the Gárda Force possible find themselves in inferior positions, and get inferior treatment to the men who did everything in their power to make the Gárda impossible. I think there is no member, either of the Government or of the Dáil, who would think that that should be allowed to continue. Deputy Davin and I have much evidence that that is existing at present, and I would like the Minister to go into it very minutely to see that it is not allowed to continue. There is one item under "Incidental Expenses" in sub-head (I), "Advertising." I should like to know what that is.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I wish to join in the approval that has been given to the wonderful capabilities, good conduct and capacity of the Gárda Síochana. As one living in the country I have had an opportunity of being in touch with them from time to time. Considering the circumstances in which they were raised, and the youth of a great number of them, those who are responsible for their training have every reason to congratulate themselves. At the same time, I would like to make a few criticisms which may be of use to the Minister, or those responsible for their training. I would say that the tendency of the Gárda is to be a little bit too anxious to pay attention to petty crimes. They devote what, in my opinion, is too much attention to detecting the smaller and minor crimes taking place in towns, and to over-emphasising the value of the detection and punishment in such cases. On that account they do not devote a sufficient amount of time to the detection of the larger crimes which take place outside of the towns, and which are very much more difficult of detection. In short, I would say that the people in the country would like to see the Gárda oftener out in the country districts, and to hear a little less of their activities in connection with minor crimes in the towns, such as absence of lights on cars, small children playing football on the streets, etc.

There is one question in connection with the Gárda Síochána that I would like to ask the Minister. I have been informed—I do not know if it is correct —that no deduction is made from the salaries of any of the members for income tax. I think it is not right if that is the case, particularly as far as it applies to the senior officers. I think it is only right that they should be expected to pay income tax like the ordinary citizens and civil servants. I would like to support Deputy Hogan regarding his complaints as to the taking over of houses. I have a good deal of sympathy with the Gárda in this regard, on account of the bad and insanitary houses they had to occupy in certain places, but I think it hardly justifies the Ministry in allowing them to cause great inconvenience to people by taking over their houses. I have been in communication with the Minister in regard to one particular case. where I think the action taken was hardly justifiable. In this case they have taken over the residence of the manager of a local co-operative creamery. This residence was built by the local cooperators and is within the walls of the creamery. Owing to a dispute which took place with the former manager, the house was temporarily unoccupied. Recently the manager of the creamery received notice that the Gárda were going to go into occupation. The Gárda should have been aware that the new manager, who had formerly been the assistant manager, was about to go into occupation. I think it is most undesirable that a residence of this kind should be taken over, because in the working of a creamery it is desirable that a manager should live close to the creamery. As a result of the commandeering of these premises the manager will have to live half a mile or a mile away. Apart from everything else, I think the very fact that it has been built as the result of co-operation makes it undesirable. This house is not the property of one man; it is in the ownership of hundreds of members of a co-operative creamery. Further, I might mention in connection with that that the company with which the creamery was insured has now refused to continue its policy unless the committee absolve it from all responsibility with regard to incendiarism. That is, the company, apparently, considers that in the occupation of the Gárda it is much more likely to be burned or injured than when it was in the occupation of the creamery manager. I would also like to support Deputy Davin in what he has said regarding the resigned and dismissed R.I.C. I understand that there are considerable grievances in regard to their positions in the Gárda Síochána.

I think it is only right that these men should be placed in a position not worse than the position of those who have been disbanded. They should at least be in as good a position, and I say they should be in a better position, and I believe that the Government has not kept its word of honour in regard to these men. I have heard—I am not quite sure about this, but I think my information is correct—that a resigned R.I.C. man who joins the Gárda Síochána does not get the advantage of his years of service in the R.I.C., or of the time which elapsed between his resignation and his joining the Gárda Síochána, as regards pension rights, that is, that he only gets the pension rights of a newly joined recruit. If that is so, I maintain that it is not right. Resigned R.I.C. men should at least get the benefit of the years they spent in the R.I.C., and also the period between when they resigned from the R.I.C. and when they got employment in the Gárda Síochána. I am very strong on this matter, because I believe firmly that it is much more desirable that men who have resigned positions and who are eligible for pensions should, if possible, be offered alternative employment which would give them salaries better than a pension would be, and give them useful employment, rather than to place them as a charge on the country. There is one other matter to which I would like to call the attention of the Minister. I notice in the Estimates that the salary paid to the editor of the official newspaper of the Gárda is £320 a year. I am not quite sure that that is a genuine charge that should be borne by the Exchequer. I rather think that the upkeep of the official newspaper of the Gárda might reasonably be borne by the Gárda themselves.

Mr. WOLFE

There is a matter in connection with one of the duties of the Gárda Síochána which I would like to call the Minister's attention to. He was kind enough some time ago, in answer to a question of mine, to say that he would bear the matter in mind. It is the regulation of and the issuing of rules for the carrying of guns, and for game licences generally. I think that regulations are very badly needed, that in many parts of the country there are still a very large number of people who have not any licences. This matter comes under the Gárda Síochána. It is a very important matter, and I think that there is a great loss of revenue and a considerable leakage. I am sure it would be advisable, and it would pay the Government well, if the Minister issued fresh regulations, as I understood him to say some time ago that he would, and if the Gárda Síochána were given orders to pay strict attention to the question of licences of people who are carrying guns.

Mr. JOHNSON

I want to support Deputy Cooper in his references to the failure of the police authorities to make any arrests in connection with the Cobh murder. The matter is perhaps more difficult to account for by virtue of the action of the Minister in publishing certain names, which seemed to indicate that the Government had positive proof of complicity. Now, when there is such an assurance as to warrant the Government in publishing names, one would think that it would have been quite within reach of accomplishment to arrest such persons. I wonder whether the Minister is now as confident as he was when he published these names that he had good grounds for such publication.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister says yes. Again I say it is more difficult to account for than ever that after so long a time no arrests have been made, although persons are so confidently alleged by the Minister to be the guilty persons. It is not believed by the people in the county or the city of Cork. The matter was raised by the Minister of the reductions in pay which took place in March, and the Minister justified that by referring to the previous discussion and the state of the national finances. I do not want to enter into any very long discussion upon the method that the Government has adopted of spending the public money to justify the reduction in the pay of men who are doing the kind of service which the Minister and the Dáil generally have praised, which, in the main, is spent in the country, and the same Ministry which will justify the payment of excessive sums for land purchase, of interest on borrowed money, and the like, and justify both on the ground of the state of national finances. But the real complaint that I would make in regard to the reduction in the pay of the Gárda is not that they are now receiving too little or that they were receiving sufficient, but the manner in which this action is accomplished. The method is to issue advertisements and call for recruits for this Force. You publicly avow a certain rate of pay and you get several thousand men to join on those terms. Then, although you have set up, or allowed to be formed, an association of the men to discuss terms and conditions of service and to make complaints, a sort of spoon-fed union, there is no sort of consultation or conference or discussion with the men concerned before you issue an order for the reduction of pay.

That, I say, is in effect a breach of faith and a breach of contract, and it is that method in respect of the Gárda, as in respect to other associations of men, that will cause discontent and dissatisfaction and make men lose faith in their Government. The point raised by Deputy O'Connell regarding the deduction for pensions is not very far removed from this point that I am making. There have been three years' deductions from pay for a pensions fund. It is important, I think, that we should know that the actual money has been set aside as a pensions fund. Otherwise the men concerned may be told in five years that the example that is set in regard to pay is followed and that the Government has decided that "this is no longer to be available, that they have already used it and that it is not now a fund which belongs to you. We have deducted this from your pay, but it is to be called a reduction of pay and not a pensions fund." I say we should have some assurance that there is set aside as a pensions fund these sums of money which have been deducted for two years and some months, and make sure that these sums are really set aside and that a pension scheme, if not yet definitely decided upon, is being prepared and will be prepared in consultation with the representatives of the men affected, and that the matter of the pensions which the Minister, I think, has power to regulate, will be laid before the Dáil at not too distant a time. We should have an assurance that the money is, as a matter of fact, set aside and will be available when the time for calling upon it arises.

Mr. VAUGHAN

I would like to ask the Minister if he would state the number of disbanded R.I.C. men who have been taken into the Gárda Síochána and if they are still drawing their pension under the Treaty and also their pay from whatever positions they hold in the Gárda. I would like to know if they are inspectors, superintendents or commissioners, and if he will give their names?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Neither Deputy Davin nor any other Deputy who raised this question of resigned R.I.C. versus disbanded R.I.C., in what I can only regard as a thoroughly mischievous manner ever broached that topic to me personally. It is raised here on the Estimates. Deputies ought, before doing a thing like that, to try to form some kind of appreciation of its possible reactions, and try to realise how undesirable it is to stir up a spirit of dissension as between one class of men and another, both being members of a disciplined organisation such as the Gárda is. A little contact with me on the matter could very easily have disposed of things that were said here to-day. There is no R.I.C. pensioner in the Gárda drawing the pension, an that is a basic misunderstanding which seems to underlie the references of every Deputy who spoke on that matter. There is in the Gárda no R.I.C. pensioner whose pension has not been suspended. No man draws pay as a member of the Gárda and a pension as an R.I.C. pensioner at the same time. Resigned members of the R.I.C. who have been accepted in the Gárda Síochána were recommended by the Committee of Inquiry which was set up under my Department, and these men will have their compensation assessed by the Minister for Finance. There will be no discrimination against them simply because they are in the Gárda Síochána. The only point is that the pension, as in the case of the other men, will be suspended while they are serving in the Gárda. As it has been referred to—and I very much dislike myself referring to this matter at all, or referring to one class of men and another class of men—from the day they went into the Gárda Síochána they are simply members of the Gárda Síochána, and they are neither ex-R.I.C., or disbanded men, or resigned men, or anything else. As the matter has been referred to, I think it is not safe or right or proper simply to take it as a general assumption that the men who remained on in the R.I.C. until such time as that Force was disbanded, were, from the national point of view, any less worthy than the others who quitted it at an earlier stage, the fact being that in particular cases, which I could mention, the reverse is very much the case. Deputies ought to realise that these are not matters that can be thrashed out here or that individual cases can be gone into. I want to stress this, that no Deputy who got up here in a light-hearted, irresponsible way to-day and talked about this matter ever talked to me about it. As regards Income Tax, it is paid by all members of the Force, officers and men, on the same basis as any other salaried public official. Pension deductions are not set aside, and there is no special fund. When the permanent Act, which is at present before the Seanad, is passed, a scheme for the Force will be inaugurated similar to that at present enjoyed by the Metropolitan Police.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

I would like to ask the Minister whether the fund will be credited with the sums which have been stopped from the pay of the Gárda?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

There is no fund at the moment.

Mr. O'CONNELL

But when the fund is set up, will it be credited with the sums which are being stopped from the pay of the Gárda? What I would like to know is, are they paying into a pension fund or are they not?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

There is, as I say, no fund at the moment. When the permanent Act is passed, a pensions fund for the Force will be inaugurated similar to that at present enjoyed by the D.M.P. Pensions will be paid out of voted moneys, irrespective of the amount of deductions. The source from which police pensions will be paid is not any special fund. The pensions will be paid out of voted moneys, as is the practice at present for the D.M.P. and the Civil Service.

Pending such a pension scheme, the Minister for Finance has, as a matter of practice, given ad hoc sanction in suitable cases for grants such as would be made under a pension scheme. For instance, if men resign or die, refunds of pension deductions are given as a matter of course. As regards Guards killed in the course of their duty, the Minister for Finance sanctions payments similar to what would be paid under the D.M.P. Pension Order. In other words, in the case of Guards killed on duty the relatives receive the same treatment as would relatives of the D.M.P., relatives of police in Northern Ireland, and relatives of police in England.

Mr. JOHNSON

On that point, can the Minister say if there is any difficulty in regard to the immediate provision of funds for burial? One hopes that this would not have to be used frequently. Is there any provision whereby funeral expenses of a Guard killed in the execution of his duty can be paid without having to call upon Guards to provide such a fund?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The sub-head dealing with incidental expenses would cover that. Funeral expenses of the Guards who have been killed on duty have been paid out of public funds. The point has been raised that special provision should be made for that. I do not want to assume. or to appear to assume, that police will be killed in the discharge of their duty in this country.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

I hope that anything I said would not lead the Minister to conclude that I indicated special provisions should be made for that purpose. I just asked if there was any provision made.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

There is, under the sub-head dealing with Incidental Expenses.

Mr. JOHNSON

Perhaps a little further explanation is needed. A complaint has, in fact, been made that there was no such money and that the Guards had been called upon to provide the money.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I know of no case where a member of the Force killed on duty had not his funeral expenses paid out of public monies, and paid immediately without any delay or without any necessity for application. Deputy Esmonde made some reference to the personnel of the Board of Promotion. He said there were rumours. The rumours in that case did not reach me. If they had, I would have had some consultation with the Commissioner as to whether there was any basis or any real justification for them. There will be many rumours that Deputies ought not to take too seriously, or ought not to mention in the Dáil without some little independent inquiry as to whether there is anything behind them.

Mr. JOHNSON

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Deputy Heffernan speaks of steps taken for the acquisition of premises. That would more properly have been dealt with under the Board of Works Vote. Of course it is a natural mistake for the Deputy to have made. The Guards do not acquire premises, but the Commissioners of Public Works acquire premises for the accommodation of the Guards. The Deputy mentioned a special case. I do not know whether there is much to be gained by entering into a controversy on the subject of special cases. As a fact, I have gone with some care into the special case which Deputy Heffernan mentions, and, like a great many other special cases mentioned here, it is not a case of simply an overwhelming array of facts and merits on one side, and an overwhelming array of wrong and injustice and plunder on the other side. It is just one of those doubtful cases.

There is an empty house. It has been empty for many a long month. The Guards are seen inspecting or looking over it, or a superintendent from headquarters is seen looking over it. Immediately people get busy, and the rumour spreads that such and such a thing is going to happen. To give an appearance of genuineness to the thing, a camp bed or a sofa is put in and a man walks into and about the house a couple of times a day. Then he is in occupation to keep out the enemy. I do agree with the Deputy that it is not a good thing that the house of any private individual, even a creamery manager, should have to be taken over for the accommodation of the Guards. But there again you come up against it that you have public requirements needing to be satisfied. There are times when public requirements are so great and overwhelming that they have to cut across individual rights.

You may want to build a railway and some stubborn old man along the desirable route says: "You cannot have my land; you cannot run your line through my land, and as I hold a considerable amount you will have to take your railway some other way." It is then we have to come to the Dáil, and you must steamroll him by legislation. There was a situation when 837 odd stations had to be established through the country, and it was desirable that the distribution of the Force should take place in the shortest space of time. The public interest dominated the situation and there was no alternative but to come to the Dáil and to say that in the last resort we must have compulsory powers of acquisition. The number of cases in which these powers were used was extremely limited; but the fact that we had the powers was of very practical value and importance in negotiations. It speeded up things.

Special cases have been raised from time to time by Deputies with me, and I have tried to give every possible consideration to them. The principle is clear, that if the requirements of a particular area indicate that a station should be established there, and established without any unnecessary delay, then we must in the last resort use those powers which the Dáil gave us. No doubt it is a question of angles and of a sense of proportion. Whether it is more important that the creamery manager should be left in free and unmolested possession, or that a Guards' station should be established in the district, is one which the Deputy and myself might quite naturally hold different opinions about.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Might I be permitted to explain. A Guards' station has been established there for over a year, as far as I know. The other information which the Minister has is not quite accurate, according to my knowledge of it. It is close to being accurate, but it is not quite accurate.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is close to being accurate. I did not make a bad shot at it impromptu. In any case, that matter could not be settled here, and Deputies could not hope to get from either Deputy Heffernan or myself sufficient accurate information on it to enable them to adjudicate.

Deputy Cooper and Deputy Johnson have referred to the failure to apprehend those who are believed to have been guilty of the crime at Cobh three months ago. They will, of course, accept it readily from me that their regret on that subject is not greater or any keener than mine. It is unfortunate that in matters of this kind one cannot go into details. One cannot say, "We did this and we did that, and it did not come off, and we hope to do such another thing." I know that Deputies and private citizens find it disappointing to get the reply week after week, and even month after month, that there has not been success. It is a national disgrace that such a crime should occur at all, and it is a very genuine and a very keen national disappointment that there has been, up to the present, a failure on the part of the police authorities to make the desired arrests. I do not know whether Deputies would expect me to say what steps have been taken or what steps are being taken. The area, as has been stated, is a wild one, in more senses than one, and it is true and disappointing that in that area there is a good deal of blind, misguided hostility to the policy which prevents the successful detection of crime and the successful apprehension of criminals. Somewhat the same story was reported from one particular area in Kerry, where men who had been guilty of the murder of Sergeant Woods many months ago, were known to be in hiding to the knowledge of very many of the inhabitants. These things are, unfortunately, true and we can only hope that time and the responsibility of self-government will work a change and bring a more mellow and more mature outlook among the people, and that the negative attitude towards justice and the administration of justice will disappear. There is, of course, the explanation that that situation has its roots in the past in the history of the country, and certain features that have been developed through a condition of things which prevailed here in the past, will not disappear in a week, a month, or a year, and may not entirely disappear until a new generation grows up in a different atmosphere and with a different outlook, and assumes an adult responsibility for the affairs of the country. I could, in private in my Department, go into some details with the Deputies who are particularly concerned. We are all deeply concerned, but if Deputies were anxious to be personally satisfied that nothing had been left undone, I would ask them to see me on this matter in my own Department, and I could go into the reports and soforth with them. I agree that the delay is a grievous disappointment. I believe myself, and from some cases that have happened Deputies may perhaps believe, that the arm of the law is getting longer and is getting stronger.

I think that these men will ultimately be arrested and will ultimately be brought to account, or, at any rate, to trial for the crime with regard to which suspicion lies heavily upon them. Men were placed on trial some weeks ago for the murder of a District Inspector in Clonakilty after the Truce in 1921 or early in 1922. The case was dismissed owing to insufficient evidence, but at any rate the fact that men were brought to trial for that offence, an offence committed so long back as that, ought to show that there is no complaisance, no equanimity, in the administration either in the Ministry or at the headquarters of the Gárda, and there is no feeling that there is a statutory limitation with regard to heinous crimes of that kind. I am not sure whether I have covered all the more important points raised in the debate.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

What about the return of the Commissioner?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

That is a matter upon which I am not in a position to make a definite declaration. The Commissioner has had a spell of very hard work, and my own personal view is that before he returns fully to duty, as Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána, he ought to take a month's leave, or more. I would hope to see him return to that duty exclusively in the very near future.

Mr. HEWAT

Before the discussion closes altogether, I would like to say that I have examined these accounts with a naturally critical eye with a view to criticising them as far as possible. The reason for my not having done so before is, I would like to admit, that I have not found anything in the accounts which I could really criticise with any effect so far as the figures are concerned, but I do think also that as a representative of a section of the people I should not let this Estimate pass without expressing what I think is the opinion of men like myself in the community, of the sense of obligation that we feel, and must feel, towards this Force and to express a recognition of the extraordinarily good work that has been done in connection with the reorganisation and development of this Force in very difficult circumstances and over a comparatively short time. I think it is remarkable that a new Force of its dimensions, entering into the atmosphere that was prevalent over the country at the time, have been able to adjust themselves to the new conditions and to do such effective work in such a comparatively short time. In surveying the situation as we find it to-day, I think it is not out of place for me to say that the progress that has been made in connection with the establishment of law and order throughout the country has been very great and has enabled many of us to look to the future with a great deal more confidence than not very long ago we could have done. As far as the accounts are concerned, at the present time at all events, I think we must recognise that the force is not being extravagantly administered, and as we find the Estimates to-day, there are no serious grounds for criticism.

Mr. DAVIN

As a personal explanation, I desire to say that I regret that I was called out by a previous appointment to meet a deputation. I am sorry that I missed the answer made by the Minister for Justice, but I understand he referred to the complaint made by me as being brought forward in a mischievous manner. I want to say that the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Finance have been acting jointly in regard to the action I complain about. I am in a position to state that a deputation from the organisation that looks after the interests of the resigned R.I.C. men have been on several occasions to the Ministry of Finance. I have a written statement in support of everything I have stated, and I certainly say, in spite of what the Minister for Justice says, that this matter was not brought forward by me in a mischievous manner. A deputation waited on me. I asked them to put in writing what they stated, and they did so.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Also on a point of explanation, I wish to say that I had not the slightest intention of doing anything mischievous. I did not make any comparisons between the treatment of the disbanded and the resigned and dismissed men of the R.I.C. I had not the slightest intention of saying anything that would stir up trouble or cause mischief.

Question put, and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 6.45 p.m., and resumed at 7.20 p.m., An Ceann Comhairle in the Chair.