Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1925

Vol. 10 No. 8

QUESTIONS ON THE ADJOURNMENT. - DISTRESS IN THE COUNTY CLARE.

Mr. CONNOR HOGAN

I gave notice last evening that I would raise, on the motion for the adjournment, the question of the growing distress in the County Clare, and the prospect of that distress becoming more acute as time goes on. Because of the infrequent sittings of the Dáil, I felt that this was a matter that should be taken in hands at the earliest possible moment. For a number of years conditions in the County Clare have been going from bad to worse. They are largely climatic, political and economic, and they are so inter-related that they have brought about a very serious position indeed in the county. As everyone knows, last year was a very wet season. Over large areas of the county the land became water-logged. That favoured the development of the fluke parasite, with the result that very serious losses have been entailed amongst the live stock of the county, especially amongst yearlings and two year old cattle. The position in West Clare, which is the poorest part of the county, is very bad indeed. All parts of the county have, to a more or less degree, suffered, but, relatively speaking, the conditions in West Clare are worse than in any other part of the county. West Clare is the impoverished district of the county. The holdings all over the county are, on the average, small, but they are unusually small in West Clare. The land there is poor, mostly bog or marsh, and the unfortunate people who reside in that area have the greatest difficulty in eking out a living. Notwithstanding all that, they are compelled, through force of circumstances, to pay the highest possible rates for their land and to receive the poorest possible services. In addition they have to pay the highest possible charges for the necessaries of life, and their means of production are very low. Even at the best of times there is only a small margin between them and starvation, but after the series of disastrous seasons that we have had, their position at the moment is really deplorable. Large numbers of their live stock have died.

Owing to high taxation, especially local taxation, during the last four or five years, for which the present Minister for Finance in his then capacity as Minister for Local Government, is in no small measure to blame, these people are without funds and without ready money to repair the ravages caused by fluke. The question now is, how are we going to serve these wretched people? Various remedies have been suggested. The question of a moratorium has been mooted. That would be a very difficult matter to deal with, involving as it does many problems, and, on the whole, I do not think it would provide a suitable solution. I suggest that we ought to endeavour to get to the root of the difficulty, which is the high rate of taxation that obtains. The local taxation which prevails in this district amounts to something like 15/- in the pound. It is that that is condemning these people to a hopeless and a helpless servitude, and nothing has been done to relieve them from the burden. I appreciate the good intentions of the present Minister for Local Government. It is true that we are getting a little temporary relief through the Relief Rates Act, but despite that a very heavy burden remains on the farmers, and no serious attempt at internal economy has been made. I put it to the Minister for Agriculture and to the Minister for Local Government, who, I am sorry to observe, is not in his place, that these people have lost a great part of their live stock through the fact that they had no capital to enable them to purchase a little concentrated food to keep the animals alive. The question must be faced at once, that these people are no longer able to meet the inflated taxation which is demanded from them. It is true, of course, that if they do not pay, you can put the machinery of the law in force against them, and that you can seize the few old cows they may have. In most cases you will not get any more than 30/- for these beasts. The only thing valuable about them is their hides. If you put these people out of business you condemn them to hopeless and perpetual poverty.

I suggest that this distress should engage not only the serious attention of the members of the Executive Council but also that of the External Ministers concerned, the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Agriculture. It is necessary, I suggest, that the land should be drained. This land is infected with the fluke parasite, and until it is drained the people who own it, even if they had the money, would be running a great risk if they were to put fresh stock on it. In addition to the wet season that we had last year, there has been what we might call a great deal of intensive flooding of the land in that area due to the extraordinarily large number of bridges that were blown down during the last five years. The stones from these bridges were left in the bed of the stream, and in a case where temporary repairs were carried out at Corofin, of which I have experience myself, the County Council employees who were engaged on the temporary structure, instead of removing the stones out of the bed of the river, left them there. I suppose that from 20 to 30 acres of land in the vicinity of that bridge were so badly flooded that it was rendered absolutely unsafe for cattle or sheep to graze on it. I want to put it straight to the Dáil that I am not seeking for charity for these people. As a matter of fact, if I were to put the question right, I would simply say that I was demanding reparation. I repeat that I am not seeking for charity. I do not want anything from the Ministry that would demoralise these people or that would lower their self-respect.

The real question is how best to maintain the public solvency on which the stability of both county and national administration depend. You can do a great deal by the provision of state rules, but you cannot do everything. But I would suggest if it was possible to adopt some means of liming the land, which is a radical cure for those large areas. Then get the county council to clean the beds of the rivers, blocked up with the debris from the broken and destroyed bridges. If you do that you will do something. In addition to that, compel the local councils to reduce expenditure, and, if needs be, take statutory authority by which they cannot exceed a certain estimate for the coming 12 months. You will then have done something, perhaps only a little, but, at all events, something to prevent people from falling not alone into absolute despair, but into actual destitution.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. Hogan)

The county of Clare is not in a good condition, but the same applies to most other counties in Ireland. The country as a whole is not as prosperous as it was three or four years ago. On the other hand, Clare is better than some of the counties, though it is worse than others. It is better, for instance, than the counties within the congested districts. There is not the same poverty in Clare as in Donegal, Leitrim, Cavan, parts of Monaghan, Roscommon, the Connemara portions of Galway, Kerry, or parts of West Cork. That is the plain fact. It is a comparative matter. The potatoes have not failed in Clare, except in small proportions.

Mr. CONNOR HOGAN

In the district I mentioned there has been a considerable failure.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

There has been failure in parts of the rural districts—Corofin, Ballyvaughan, and Ennistymon, and that is hardly West Clare. In West Clare there has been a certain failure. But the turf has been saved fairly well in Clare as a whole, and very much better than in 75 per cent. of the other counties in Ireland. The standard of living in Clare is of a sort that is far higher than in the counties I have mentioned. Everyone concentrates upon his own particular area. But it is a comparative matter, and it is necessary to remember that to get a true perspective. The Deputy suggests that the rates are high and that the County Councils, for instance, do not work properly in respect of the bridges. He complained that there are stones lying in the rivers, and he talks about draining and liming the land. You could go through a lot of those questions, but leaving the rates out of the question for the moment these projects and propositions that he put forward and which he said the Government should take in hands, cannot be undertaken without more money and more taxation. It will be interesting to hear what the Deputy will have to say on the Budget upon those matters. He suggested a relief scheme, but it is due to the country to be told by others than those sitting on the Government benches that relief means more taxation and more money. It is due to the country to be told that by people besides those belonging to the Cumann na nGaedheal party and those on the Government benches. In saying that I do not suggest for a moment that something should not be done; but in regard to the provisions he suggested, such as liming and drainage, he will admit that liming is not relief——

Mr. JOHNSON

Quicklime is.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

No; I believe not. You are generally dead when the quicklime is put in. Liming is not relief, and the same applies to drainage. Besides. drainage cannot be done in a hurry. It would take five, six, or seven years to make a real inroad into the drainage problem; so when he suggests that Clare or any other part of the country should be drained as a palliative for immediate distress the Deputy makes a suggestion which leads nowhere. The question of drainage is a very big thing in this country; it will take a lot of money, which probably will have to be borrowed.

Now with regard to rates, the Deputy has told us that a real grievance in Clare is that the rates are very high. He comes here to the Dáil and actually tells the Government that the rates in Clare are too high. If the rates in Clare are too high, whose fault is it? Some people will say we have not had elections recently. They are entitled to any point they can make on that score, but nevertheless the people of Clare elected the representatives on the county council and apparently have not the real interests of the people of Clare at heart.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

Selected, not elected.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

That is the people's look-out—the people who elected them. We will see what will happen at the next election. I am sure there is going to be a tremendous revolution in the Clare County Council. All the Government has to do is to make arrangements for the elections, and then nobody but representatives of the people will get into the County Council of Clare, and when they do they will remove all the grievances of which the Deputy so rightly complains. Now these are the facts: the county council strikes high rates. Every county council in Ireland, we are told, is doing something in a most shameful fashion. In Clare the county council employees will not remove the stones from the bed of the streams. In a case of this kind would not the farmers stretch a point and remove those stones themselves?

Mr. CONNOR HOGAN

What about the road workers?

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Yes, and the road workers. It is the duty of the county council to do it, but if the obstruction caused by these stones is resulting in so much distress as the Deputy says, I suggest that a few farmers should join up together and remove these stones from the bed of the river. On the question of drainage we have nearly reached a point which should gladden the heart of Deputy Johnson, who looks to a system of State socialism. Everything is to be done by the State. Every drain is to be cleared by the State, and everyone is to preach that doctrine.

Mr. JOHNSON

Except Deputy Johnson.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

I do not except Deputy Johnson. He started on those lines, but being a wise man he allowed the other man to go ahead. That is the position we are coming to. The Government must do everything. Ninety-five per cent. of the persons making that claim know that it is not a business one. If the Government do half what they are being asked to do they must make available larger revenue and therefore increase taxation. Then this money will be spent more wastefully than it would be under private enterprise. The Deputy is a member of the county council, and he can ventilate that in Clare.

Mr. CONNOR HOGAN

I am not.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

There are a good many ways of ventilating that in Clare. At the next election you should put in men who will administer local taxation as it should be administered, but it is absurd to come here and blame the former Minister for Local Government. The country is on trial at the present moment not only in regard to its fitness for self-government but in regard to its fitness for local government. That is the cold fact. The abuses mentioned by Deputy Hogan are common in those counties, but it is not the business of the Government to send down their representatives to run the local councils. Where they do that it is an admission of the fact that those councils are not able to do their business.

The Deputy may get up and ask questions with regard to the fluke. It is a serious matter for the farmers not only in this country, but in England, Scotland and Wales. It can be cured as easily as influenza by a medicine known as Extract of Male Fern. The difficulty is to get that medicine with the active principle in it. You can get consignments of medicine which will cure because the active principle is there, but other consignments will not do because the active principle is not in them. Experts tell me that the explanation is that the stalk has to be collected at a special time. We realise here that spraying land is a large proposition for men who considered they had enough to do to spray their potatoes. The Department of Agriculture endeavoured to get large quantities of this medicine three months ago and to test it. No one knew last year that fluke would be as bad as it is, and the normal supply of this medicine is small. We tested the consignments we got. Some were all right and some all wrong. Finally we got considerable quantities of that medicine from France, and it is on sale by a firm here at the rate of 3d. per sheep or 5d. per beast. Every consignment that goes out is tested and it will cure fluke unless the animal is on its last legs or unless the liver is so haemorrhaged that nothing will cure it. So far as I know, all farmers are taking advantage of this medicine. I agree with the Deputy that before that scheme could be put into operation a large number of sheep and cattle died, and that is due to the fact that not only had they contracted fluke but they were in bad condition owing to the bad season. I am not going into the question of poverty or bad farming. In some cases probably it was one, and in some cases it was the other. That terrible epidemic might become worse but the medicine is available to the people at 3d. per sheep or 4d. or 5d. per bullock, and if it is not availed of it is not our fault. Clare wants lime and so does Kerry, and we have been experimenting on this question of lime. Lime is no good to a farmer unless he gets it at £1 a ton. Basic slag is at a price which makes it as available as lime would be if got at the price we suggest, namely £1 per ton. Lime for counties like Kerry, with rough, heathery land, is needed badly for tillage and reclamation. It is not so badly needed in Clare. Lime at £2 a ton is no good to the farmer. We turned our attention to ground lime. It was a success in England and America, but no use to us. English limestone is soft and Irish limestone is hard, and the machine that will be effective in England with regard to chalk is not effective with regard to Irish limestone. I have come to the conclusion that it will be difficult to get a machine to turn out ground limestone at a price to make it as available as burned lime. Our experiments have shown that there is not much success in that direction.

Mr. GOREY

I think the Minister has missed the main point the Deputy was making, that is, that a considerable number of the farmers in Clare and Kerry have lost a considerable percentage of calves. Those people made a point of feeding their calves well, and yet the calves have died of fluke. They have died during the wet season. I think what the Deputy wants to draw attention to is what can be done for the people who have suffered those losses. Personally I see nothing facing them but absolute ruin. That is the position we want to consider.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

That is a point which I do not think the Deputy raised, but it is a relevant one. I did not say that those cattle died of hunger. What I did say is that some of them died because of fluke, and were not well fed. Others died of fluke simply, and others died of "T.B." All those reasons were connected with the bad season, shortage of fodder and so on. A considerable number of animals died because farmers did not treat them as they should. Undoubtedly, in Clare, as in Galway and everywhere else, there are a certain number of farmers who did not feed their stock rightly.

As to the people whose stock has died, I will not pretend to solve the problem of what could be done for them at the moment. There is nothing like stating the position accurately. It is not accurate to give the impression that very large numbers of cattle died. They did not. Considerable numbers of cattle died in districts of Clare and North Roscommon. Very large numbers of sheep died in a limited district in County Galway, but, taking the country as a whole, I doubt if five per cent. of the sheep died from fluke. Certainly, I would not say that one per cent. of the cattle of the country died. Of course it is very little consolation for the man who had 25 or 30 ewes that died, to know that no sheep in the rest of the country died. That man is ruined. Supposing it was possible that something could be done, is it not almost impossible to find out accurately where the sheep died? Let Deputies envisage that problem for themselves and find out the number that died from this particular disease. It is not right that we should subsidise inefficiency and laziness. There is some of that there. To envisage that problem you must find out whether the sheep or cattle died from this particular disease. It would be necessary to know when you dealt with that problem how many you paid who were not entitled to the money and how many you left out who were entitled to it. There are difficulties there that everyone must realise.