Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 20

BUSINESS OF THE DAIL—HOURS OF SITTING.

The PRESIDENT

I move:—

Go dtí an t-athló chun Sos an tSamhraidh go suidhfidh an Dáil Dé Luain; ná beidh ach gnó Rialtais ar Riar Oibre an Luain, agus go dtógfar Ordú an lae, chun an Dáil do chur ar athló, ar 10.30 p.m. an tráth is déanaí dhe.

That until the adjournment for the Summer Recess the Dáil sit on Mondays; that the Order Paper on Mondays be confined to Ministerial business, and that the Order of the day for the adjournment of the Dáil be taken not later than 10.30 p.m.

This is one of a series of resolutions which would be operative until the adjournment for the Summer Recess. After careful consideration we have come to the conclusion that it is a great tax on the time of members to attend here during the month of July, and by this alteration in the hours and in the days of sitting it is hoped that we will be able to get away early in July. It imposes a very considerable tax on the time of members up to that period, but there is a general expression of opinion amongst members that a little more time devoted to the business and an earlier adjournment is more satisfactory than a lesser number of hours and a longer period of sitting. I think, although there are some who may not, perhaps, be taken as wholeheartedly in favour of the change, that they have been generous enough to give way to those who have very considerable demands upon their time during this season. I think that while it may not give the utmost satisfaction to everybody, the proposed new arrangement will give the greatest possible meed of satisfaction all round, and will enable the Dáil to devote just as much time to the consideration of the business as if there had been no alteration. I move accordingly.

Mr. GOREY

I only object to the motion dealing with the extended sitting on Fridays.

Major COOPER

I would suggest to the President that he should approach Ministers with a view to curtailing some of their statements. We had a time-table before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges prepared by the President which allowed six hours to one block of four Votes. On one of these Votes the Minister in charge spoke for nearly one and a half hours. If a Minister in charge takes one and a half hours on one Vote it will be very hard, however keen we may be to limit discussion, to cut it down so as to keep to the President's time-table. I think I am right in saying that Deputies do want to adjourn at the beginning of July and that they are prepared to make certain sacrifices by foregoing time for criticism which they would otherwise enjoy, but I think that such a self-denying ordinance must not be expected from Deputies alone. It should, I think, apply to Ministers as well as to everybody else.

The PRESIDENT

I find myself in a very considerable difficulty with regard to that. On one occasion, in connection with the discussion of the Estimates, the Minister in charge was invited to make a statement expounding his policy. Now, in view of a certain species of activity which has evidenced itself principally amongst the Press—I do not think anybody else takes any notice of it except Press people—Ministers have thought it well to devote more time to the preparation of a statement of their case as a justification for the sums that are in the Estimates than would otherwise happen. In the case of one Minister at least an inquiry which he felt called upon to make certainly put a tax on the time of the House, but at any rate it disposed of the flippancies, inaccuracies, and exaggerations which occurred in the Press recently. To that extent I find myself in a difficulty, because it would look as if one side were allowed an innings and then when the time for the return match came it was not to be played.

Major COOPER

May I suggest to the President that he should either read the statements Ministers are going to make and revise his time-table in view of that, or that his Parliamentary Secretary or himself should sub-edit these statements. It is not always necessary for Ministers to go into such detail. A Minister might easily make a statement lasting from twenty to twenty-five minutes that would cover the general activities of his Department. If further details were required the Minister could deal with these when he came to reply in winding up the debate. In that way we could economise on the time-table.

The PRESIDENT

I undertake personally to see each Minister, and to impress upon them the necessity of curtailing their statements in order to escape being cast into exterior darkness.

Mr. JOHNSON

Perhaps the President would also bear in mind that a minute statement of the activities of each section of a Department is by no means the same thing as a declaration of policy.

Motion put and agreed to.

The PRESIDENT

I move:

Go dtí an t-athló chun Sos an tSamhraidh, agus in ainneoin éinní atá in Ordú na Dála den 10adh Deire Fomhair, 1923, go suidhfidh an Dáil níos déanaí ná 4 p.m. Dé hAoine, agus ar na laetheanta san go dtógfar Ordú an lae, chun an Dáil do chur ar ath-ló, ar 8.30 p.m. an tráth is déanaí dhe.

That until the adjournment for the Summer Recess, and notwithstanding anything contained in the Order of the Dáil of the 10th October, 1923, the Dáil sit later than 4 p.m. on Fridays, and that on those days the Order of the day for the adjournment of the Dáil be taken not later than 8.30 p.m.

This motion fixes the hour of the adjournment of the Dáil on Fridays at 8.30. As I said in my opening statement, these three resolutions do not commend themselves to all parties. There are objections to all three, but there has been a general acceptance of the principle involved in the three of them. I would appeal to Deputy Gorey to modify his objection to the extension of the hour on Friday in view of the advance that has been made in order to make it possible to get all three motions accepted. It really means only three and a half hours extra on Friday, because if one were to take in the time for questions on Fridays as a rule during the earlier portion of the Session, they occupy half-an-hour. That has been taken off, so that the advantage derived by this arrangement would be four hours, and four hours for five weeks would be twenty hours, or almost a week. While the Deputy would sacrifice a portion of one day it will be seen that the advantage derived is practically a week owing to the earlier adjournment, so that I would appeal to Deputy Gorey not to press his objection to this.

Mr. GOREY

Unfortunately I cannot see eye to eye with the President on this. It does not matter much to Deputies resident in Dublin whether we adjourn at 4 p.m. or 8.30 p.m. With these Deputies it is only a question of getting to their homes a little later. It is different with Deputies who have business in the country that needs sometimes as much, if not more, attention than the business of Deputies resident in Dublin. The week-end is the only time they have any opportunity of attending to their own business. If this resolution is passed Deputies would have to go home on Saturday and return on Monday morning. You can have too much of a good thing, and this is too much of a good thing. I, for one, will leave the Dáil on Fridays and catch my train at 5 o'clock no matter what is the business in the Dáil.

The PRESIDENT

If other Deputies are in the same position the only thing to do would be to put on business at that time in which they are not interested.

Mr. GOREY

If the Dáil desires to meet every day, or say on Wednesday or Thursday, at 12 or 1 or 2 o'clock, it would be much more reasonable from the point of view of country Deputies than the proposal in the motion which would make it impossible for Deputies to pay any attention to their own business.

The PRESIDENT

The Deputy may see by to-day's Order Paper that the Committee of Public Accounts held a meeting at 11 o'clock in Room No. 2. That committee sits every day in the week, and if there were an early sitting of the Dáil, as suggested by the Deputy, it would mean that the Committee would not be able to do its work and would have to come back at the end of the adjournment to deal with that particular business. This is a case in which it is hoped to crowd into five weeks business which should really occupy up to eight or nine weeks, and not limiting the time spent on any particular item. It is hoped by concentration to achieve the same purpose as would be obtained if we were to sit until the 1st August.

Mr. GOREY

Whatever may be the object in adjourning on 7th or 8th July I have already made the case that the only time we can get away from Dublin after the 8.30 p.m. adjournment on Friday would be at an early hour on Saturday, and on our return we would have to leave by an early train on Monday, with the result that we would have only Sunday at home in our own places. We are not in the same position as Deputies resident in Dublin, who have their mornings to attend to their business. We do not know during our absence from home what is happening until we return to our own places—although some Deputies may think we have no business to attend to. We cannot agree to this suggestion. If Deputies think it is necessary the business of the Dáil should be carried out after 4 o'clock, and I think there are some Deputies on the Government benches who have the same mind as I have in this matter, then it must be done without us.

Mr. COLE

May I suggest that we should start half an hour earlier each day and sit on Friday until 6 o'clock instead of 8.30?

Mr. GOREY

Six o'clock would not suit either.

Mr. BAXTER

I do not agree with the point of view that the business of the Dáil is of such a character that it could be gone on with in the absence of some Deputies. I do not think any Deputy who conscientiously wants to do his part can feel that he should be absent from the House while certain Estimates are under discussion. Every Estimate is of particular interest to every Deputy. This is really a matter of arranging the programme so as to enable us to be present when the Dáil is in session, rather than to permit business to be managed in such a way as to have on at a particular time matters that some Deputies may feel are of no particular interest to them. I want to protest against being asked to crush all this work into such a short space of time, especially in view of the adjournments that have taken place since the opening of the session. In some weeks there were two or three days that the Dáil did not meet, and there were also some weeks that it did not meet. I think it is not fair to ask the House to agree with the request made now. It is undoubtedly a considerable strain on Deputies at present. Some Deputies will find it very difficult to attend on Mondays unless they remain over for the week-end. If they attend here on Mondays it is only reasonable that they should be allowed to leave for home on Friday evening. Members of the Farmers' Party want to see the work that has been done on their farms during the week. The pro-in pursuance of that understanding I would be reasonable if we met on other days at 2 instead of 3 o'clock.

The PRESIDENT

I would like Deputies to understand that I am not exactly a free agent in this matter. I had an understanding with a Committee of the House that was, I understood, representative of all Parties, and in pursuance of that understanding I put down these motions. If I am asked to agree of my own motion to make any change in the proposals I can only say that I cannot do so. I could certainly not do so without seeing the same Committee again.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think it would be well for me to say that the Committee on Procedure was, as the President pointed out, representative of all sections. It agreed to the proposals which the President has put forward with a view to endeavouring to curtail the length of this part of the Session. Earlier meetings were suggested, but it was pointed out to, and accepted by, the Committee, that there was very little time for Committees to meet in the morning, do the necessary work, and then meet again at 2 or 2.30 o'clock. It was considered that 3 o'clock was a reasonable hour to meet if Committees were to sit in the morning until 1 or 1.30. There was a sort of suggestion that on Fridays business which was not considered contentious might be discussed, but there was no bond to that effect. I must say that it gives me a great deal of pleasure to realise that Deputies have become convinced of the importance of being at all times present when the House is sitting. It has not been the practice in the past for Deputies to be so assiduous in their attendance, and I am very glad to hear the views expressed by the representatives of the Farmers' Party, that they desire to be present at all times.

Mr. BAXTER

I think they give as much attendance as any one else.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am not putting one against the other in this matter. The observations that came from members of the Farmers' representatives do not accord with the practice hitherto, and I think the Committee had a right to assume that business could be found which would not compel the attendance of Deputies belonging to the Farmers' Party on Friday night, especially those who desired to go away. As a matter of fact, I think it has not been unusual to find that even on Friday afternoon business has been found which was not of particular interest to the Farmers' Party or to any other Party. However, if a new view of their responsibilities and duties has come upon any Deputies I think it is to be commended, and I would say that the proposal for meeting on Friday evenings might well, after a week or two, be found unnecessary. It may be found that the time table can be altered somewhat, in view of the celerity with which the business is passing through, unless, of course, we get an announcement of the kind we had yesterday from one Minister, that a new Bill that had not hitherto been under consideration was to be brought forward, and passed before the adjournment. I think I am right in saying that there was no reference hitherteo of the extension of the Trade Loans Acts.

Mr. BLYTHE

For continuing it.

The PRESIDENT

I had it in mind, but I did not like to shock the meeting.

Mr. JOHNSON

Although it may be a small Bill it might lead to a lot of contention.

Dr. HENNESSY

If the hours for transacting the business are to be reconsidered, as a medical man, I hope they will not be prolonged. A suggestion has been made that the Dáil should meet at 12 o'clock and sit until 10.30 p.m. I believe it is both physically and intellectually impossible for Deputies to undergo that strain. It may be said that the hygienic arrangements of this House are the last word of their kind. All I can say about the atmosphere of this House is that at times it is most depressing and vitiating. How much the rhetoric of Deputies contributes to that vitiation I do not know, but when I look at the wan faces of Ministers, who come here after doing a hard morning's work and stick it out until 10.30 at night, I must say that my sympathies are with them.

Major COOPER

Does Deputy Hennessy know that there are a number of Deputies sitting on Committees who start work at 11 a.m. and go on until 10.30 p.m., and would he attribute a wan face to me?

Mr. GOREY

I would like the President to agree on this matter with us. We have accepted the Monday sitting without question. We are prepared to go as far as anybody else in reason, but there is a point beyond which we cannot go. Everybody knows that there is important business to be done in the country which has to be attended to. Agricultural work is work that must be given attention at the proper time. What is not done in spring cannot be done in summer or autumn. I was pleased to hear Deputy Hennessy express so much sympathy for the Ministers with their wan faces. Probably that is due to the fact that they are the only faces he happens to see. There are other Deputies here with their backs towards the Deputy who deserve just as much sympathy.

Dr. HENNESSY

I should not care to say that Deputy Gorey has a wan face.

Mr. GOREY

Deputy Hennessy hinted at one sensible course. We could agree among ourselves—those of us who stand up on almost every occasion —to curtail our contributions to the debates. We might be able to save a week in that way. Some of us, including myself, very often talk for the mere sake of talking. If we could curb that tendency, we might be able to get along with the business more quickly. Reference has been made particularly to members on these benches regarding attendance here. Deputy Johnson spoke as if he were speaking of the Deputies on those benches. He certainly looked at those benches when he was speaking.

The PRESIDENT

He was admiring them.

Mr. GOREY

I think the attendance of Deputies on these benches has been as good as the attendance of any of the Deputies of any other Party in the House. Time after time we have sat here from 3 o'clock until 10.30. I admit that Deputy Johnson has been also a close sitter. The reason I was not here yesterday—I may say that I think my attendance will compare with that of Deputy Johnson or anybody else—was that I was attending to other important public business. I had to attend a meeting of the directors of the Waterford Meat Factory. To come back to business, I would ask the President to have unanimous agreement on the question of a 4 o'clock sitting on Fridays. We cannot sit an hour later than that. The 5 o'clock train is the only train we can get for the South. Even if an adverse vote be given on this question, we would have to get that train. I think the President should meet us in a generous way and agree to our suggestion.

Major COOPER

Might I suggest to the President that he postpone the change of hours on Friday for a fortnight until he is in a position to see how business will stand? The President may be in a position to continue the normal arrangement for the next two Fridays and, if found necessary then, Deputy Gorey might be agreeable to extending the hour.

The PRESIDENT

I am prepared to do that. With the permission of the House I will withdraw motion No. 2 for the present.

Motion No. 2, by leave, withdrawn.