I move:—
"That the Dáil is of opinion that the Tariff Commission, as at present constituted, is unsuitable for dealing expeditiously with applications received for the imposition of tariffs and should be replaced by a Commission, consisting of five members who should have a knowledge of agricultural and industrial conditions (of whom one should be a qualified accountant), appointed by the Executive Council with the approval of the Dáil, and to hold office for a stated period;
"That the Commission, thus constituted, should have power to investigate the conditions existing in any industry in regard to its need for Protection against foreign competition and should make recommendations to the Executive Council as to how the benefits derived from the measure of protection afforded to any trade can be shared by the consumers;
"That for the purposes of its inquiries the Commission should be empowered to enforce the attendances of witnesses and to examine them on oath;
"That the Commission report to the Executive Council, which shall publish such reports within three months of their presentation if so requested by the Commission."
Deputies will note that the motion deals purely with the machinery by which the applications for tariffs are to be examined. The motion presumes that the question as to whether or not the State policy should be one of Free Trade or Protection has been already decided and that it is a question now of getting the most efficient machinery possible in order to have an adequate examination of applications and speedy presentation of reports. It is our opinion that the existing machinery, the machinery of the existing Tariff Commission, is not suitable, that the method of its composition and the powers entrusted to it by the Act are such as to restrict its speedy working and that it cannot deal adequately with the situation that exists in this country. There is, I think, throughout the manufacturing classes generally no confidence in it. There is an impression, a general feeling, that it is a waste of time and a waste of money for any association of manufacturers to prepare a case for submission to that tribunal. Its members personally are no doubt qualified to hold the position and are capable, but in consequence of the restrictions imposed upon them they are practically powerless. It has been in existence now, I think, for over a year and a half, and it has to date produced two reports with a promise of a third within this Session. In view of the situation which exists in this country, we think that fact itself is sufficient to condemn the Tribunal. It is sufficient at any rate to show that there is something radically wrong with its composition. It is our opinion, of course, that it was not established to facilitate the imposition of tariffs, that the purpose of its establishment was mainly political. It was intended to give people the impression that the Executive Council had the matter of protection of our industries under consideration and were anxious to facilitate it. But the Commission on which they decided, in its working at any rate, has impeded rather than facilitated the imposition of tariffs. It is our opinion that this was not meant to be serious. We have a statement on record, I think, by the Minister for Finance, that if the number of applications was increased the members of the Commission would be put on whole-time—that is, would be put in a position to give all their attention to the work of the Commission. That statement I submit is not sufficient, because the number of applications will not increase while there is a feeling in existence—as there undoubtedly is at present—that it is a waste of time for manufacturers to prepare a case for submission to that body.
I should like to submit, and I think it is easy enough to prove, that there is a practical need for expedition in the matter of protection of our industries. We have a net adverse trade balance every year amounting to several million pounds which represents a loss of capital to the nation and which means that the vitality left to ensure revival in the country is gradually diminishing. In addition, there is widespread unemployment. It is impossible to get accurate statistics as to how widespread it is, but every Deputy knows from his own experience in his constituency that unemployment is very grave indeed. In connection with that it is well to note that in addition to the loss of material capital consequent on the adverse trade balance, there is a serious loss of what one might call mental capital as well owing to the exportation of our skilled workers. These are men that cannot be replaced. It will take many years to substitute other workers for them. They are going in consequence of the lack of employment at home, and unless we take some steps immediately to ensure that efficient machinery will be set up to protect our industries, then the loss which the nation will suffer will be irreparable in a generation at any rate.
In the motion there is a suggestion made for the formation of a Commission of a different kind. It is suggested that the Commission should consist of five members appointed by the Executive Council with the approval of the Dáil. I should like to point out that it is not our view that Civil Servants should not be on the Commission. But Civil Servants are men who throughout their lives have lived in a sheltered occupation and have no practical experience of the storm and stress of industrial life. It is, therefore, important that there should be on the Commission not merely Civil Servants, but men with a practical knowledge of industrial and agricultural conditions which would make them useful members of that body. It is very important indeed that men with practical experience of agriculture should be on the Commission, because despite certain statements which have been made in this House, it is the agricultural community which is most urgently in need of protection at present and it is really most urgent in its demand for it.
The size of the Commission is not important. We suggest five members and we think that a reasonable number. It is important that they should be in a position to give their undivided attention to the work of the Commission. It is important that they should be approved of by the Dáil, even though they will be nominated by the Executive Council. The suggestion that they should be nominated by the Executive Council is to ensure that there would be some uniformity of policy among its members—that the Commission would not be just a debating society at which free traders and protectionists would argue out their differences. In that connection there is the example of the United States Tariff Commission which consists of six members appointed by the President and subject to the approval of the Senate. The normal term of office is twelve years, but at the end of each two years a member automatically retires and a new appointment is made. There should undoubtedly be a set period of fairly considerable duration for which members would be appointed, to ensure that to some extent, at any rate, they would be in a judicial capacity and free from political influence.
The important sections of the motion, however, deal with the powers of the Commission. They should have power to investigate conditions existing in any industry in regard to its need for protection. The existing body has power to consider only such cases where applications are made by those manufacturing or proposing to manufacture the articles sought to be protected. We have practical experience that there is a number of industries in which those engaged in them are convinced that if they are to be developed in this country protection is needed, but who will not themselves take the initiative in demanding protection, because they fear, as a result of the operation of a protectionist policy, foreign combines would come in here to capture the home market and put them out of business. They are, therefore, in the dilemma that although they know protection is the best thing for their industries, it would probably, under existing conditions, be the worst thing possible for themselves. We, of course, have definite views on that matter. We think that as we build up our protectionist wall brick by brick we should also take effective measures to ensure that Irish industries would remain, if not under the control of Irish capital, at least controlled by capital that would be under Irish control.
There are other industries in which the powers of the Commission to investigate the circumstances in any trade would be most important. We have the example of the railways. The railway company a few years ago manufactured by far the greater portion of its rolling stock and its other requirements in its works at Inchicore. To-day figures can be produced to prove that it is importing many articles which could be manufactured more cheaply at its own works. The question of the control of the railways, of course, would be out of order in this debate, but it would be well to point out that there is one particular case in which there is no conceivable likelihood of an application for a tariff being submitted to the Tribunal, and yet a case in which it is essential that some protectionist policy should be embarked upon. The railway company, for example, purchased from America plant for the construction of axle boxes—the newest machinery of the kind on the market—erected it in its works, brought over experts to train the workers in the operation of the plant, and then, when the plant had been erected and the workers trained, let it go to rust, and is, as we read in the Press, only a few weeks ago, advertising for tenders for the supply of axle boxes from abroad.
There is the agricultural industry. It is difficult to get agriculturists organised in order to submit a considered case to any tribunal. The existing organisations which pretend to serve the interests of the farmers are, of course, merely graziers' organisations, and in no sense representative of the agricultural community at all. We consider that the Commission should have power to examine the conditions existing in all phases of agricultural work and, if necessary recommend to the Dáil that a protectionist policy should be embarked upon.
We also consider that the Tariff Commission should have power to make recommendations to the Executive Council to ensure that the benefits derived by sets of traders as a result of the imposition of tariffs should be passed on, to some extent, to the consumers of the articles sold. We consider effective machinery to ensure that should not be difficult to establish. The report of the Food Prices Tribunal shows that in certain articles of food, at any rate, there is profiteering of a very extravagant nature going on at the present moment. We believe, for example, that if the association of manufacturers or traders, for the purpose of price-fixing, was declared illegal and that free internal competition was permitted to hold sway, a lot of that profiteering could be prevented.
The Commission, of course, should report to the Executive. There may be cases in which there would be need for secrecy to prevent facts and information concerning our industries from getting into the hands of foreign competitors in a form that would be of advantage to them. But there should be a definite time limit within which the Executive should declare its policy with regard to the Commission's recommendations. We suggest that within three months of their presentation the reports should be published by the Executive if so requested by the Commission. The Commission, being in possession of all the facts, would know whether the publication of the Report was in the best national interest or not.
There is an amendment to the motion tabled by Deputy O'Connell to which I would like to refer briefly. The points of similarity between the amendment and the motion are much more numerous than the points of difference. In the amendment it is suggested that the present Commission should be continued, with the exception that the members of it would be free to devote their whole time to the work. There are three members of the present Commission, and the three are civil servants. I think a very strong case could be made out against having a Commission exclusively of civil servants. There should undoubtedly be on it men with a practical knowledge of industrial and agricultural conditions which is essential for the proper consideration of the subject. There is no reason why civil servants with particular qualifications should not be members of the Commission.
There is no mention in the amendment of ensuring that the benefits resulting from the imposition of tariffs shall be passed on to the consumers. The recommendation regarding the appointment of the Commission to investigate the conditions in any industry is practically the same, and in the majority of other matters the amendment is the same. There is, however, in the amendment, Section 3, which states that the Commission should report "On the safeguards required or desirable to ensure a satisfactory standard of working conditions for employees in any industry to which assistance or protection may be given." I am not at all sure that it is advisable to impose that duty upon the Tariff Commission. The Commission may not be the most suitable body to decide the safeguards required. There is in that section the suggestion that the Government has a responsibility for ensuring satisfactory working conditions only in the case of protected industries. We hold that it is the duty of the Government to ensure that satisfactory working conditions should prevail in every industry operating in the State and not merely in those protected. That is a matter of very minor importance in view of the fact that it is not directly related to the motion. Comparing the motion and the amendment, I am still of opinion that the motion is preferable, and I would ask the Dáil to pass it in preference to the amendment.
In conclusion I would like to emphasise that there is very great need for expedition in this matter. It is essential that we should decide on some definite policy for industrial and agricultural reconstruction and put it into operation in the very near future. We cannot afford to let the policy of drift continue much longer. There are some people no doubt who think that the evils that exist here are due to the fact that there are a million too many people in the country. We do not. We believe Ireland can be made a self contained until, providing all the necessities of living in adequate quantities for the people residing in the Island at the moment and probably for a much larger number. The policy of this Party with reference to the control of economic matters in the State has already been defined here. We consider that the entire economic policy of the country should be decided on by a national economic council such as exists in Germany and France and such as is suggested by one of the big English parties for that nation. I notice it has also been suggested by Professor Johnston in an addendum to the Food Prices Report. The Tariff Commission would of course be merely a unit of that economic council. But pending the establishment of an economic council we think that the existing machinery should be improved as far as possible to ensure that it will be effective. We submit it is not effective at present and that instead it is quite the reverse acting as a brake upon progress and as such it should be scrapped. The whole case for a proper Tariff Commission does, of course, presume the necessity for a Tariff Commission. We are prepared to adapt the existing machinery in so far as it is possible to ensure that it will be effective. Although we perhaps should not be taken as saying that in our view a separate Tariff Commission is the most effective way of dealing with these matters, we think that the existing machinery could be made in part effective. Of course no machinery by itself will achieve anything unless it is supplied with the driving force of a will to achieve things, and that driving force must be supplied by the Executive Council. If the Executive Council has no policy, is divided in its policy, or is indifferent as to its policy on this matter, then the machinery will remain motionless no matter how perfect it may be. Until we get a definite national policy decided on in favour of industrial and agricultural protection and an Executive in office prepared to enforce that policy, it is useless to hope for results. At the same time, we think the opportunity should be availed of to ensure that effective machinery will be there when such an Executive comes into office.
