Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 2 Mar 1928

Vol. 22 No. 7

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE. - DUNDALK DISTRICT COURT CLERKSHIP.

Mr. COBURN

In connection with Question 10 on the Order Paper, I wish to state, for the information of the Deputies here, that an examination for the position of Clerk to the Dundalk District Court was held sometime in September, 1927, and after a lapse of a few weeks there were summoned here to Dublin, by the members of the Civil Service Appointments Commission, several of the candidates who sat for that examination. I submit that the natural inference from that fact alone should be that at least one of those candidates should have been selected for the position. There is another very significant fact in connection with this appointment. The Civil Service Appointments Commission did not make known the result of the examination, which was held in September, 1927, until February, 1928, a lapse of exactly six months. What is puzzling the people of Louth at the present moment is why this long delay was necessary in making this appointment. Again, the people of Louth feel that, in accordance with the terms governing this appointment, preference should have been given to those candidates who reside in the locality. They have, naturally, been disappointed on finding that the present occupant of the position hails from Arklow, Co. Wicklow, and I have yet to learn when Arklow became part and parcel of County Louth, according to the terms of the advertisement. Definite information has been given to me that the person appointed is an ex-member of the Civic Guard and, incidentally, I venture to remark that I am not imbued with any animus against members of the Civic Guard obtaining any public appointment. I have a special regard for the members of the Civic Guard in general. It has further been stated to me that while he was a member of the Civic Guard he received an injury which necessitated his retirement from the force. I am not giving this information as being definite, but I am giving it, and I hope the Minister for Justice will be able to say whether it is accurate or otherwise, and, if it is not accurate, I will at once withdraw the accusation.

I felt great satisfaction at the fact that the Civil Service Appointments Commissioners thought fit to make it one of the conditions governing this appointment that candidates should reside in the locality. I felt that from a human point of view. Fathers and mothers who raise boys to the age of twenty and twenty-one naturally do not like them to be compelled to leave the town or village in which they were born to seek a living elsewhere, even in their own country. They like to have them close to them, so that they will be under their ever-watchful eye. Consequently the people of Louth in general, were gratified that condition was inserted in the notice governing the appointment, but, to their consternation, after a lapse of six months they found that the person appointed not only did not comply with the terms governing the appointment, but actually at the time of his appointment resided in Arklow, Co. Wicklow.

It is further stated by several candidates who took part in that examination—I am giving the statement for what it is worth—that the person who occupies the position did not sit for his examination in the same room as the other candidates from County Louth. Several candidates who sat for the examination have twenty-five years' experience of legal work. One candidate in particular, as I mentioned in a supplementary question to the Minister for Justice, took a very high place in the examination for solicitors' apprentices, and I am convinced, as one who has received some sort of education and passed through the Intermediate in all its stages, that it would be an intellectual impossibility for an ex-member of the Civic Guard to obtain higher marks than this particular candidate in that examination. Consequently I ask the Minister for Justice to decide that the person who has been appointed to this position is not permanently appointed, and that he will, in the near future, if he is to restore the confidence of the people of the Saorstát in the equity and impartiality of those who constitute the Civil Service Commission, re-advertise the position of Clerk to the Dundalk District Court.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

The facts of the case, so far as I am concerned, are as follows:—The Civil Service Commissioners carried out the duties which are imposed upon them by statute and sent forward to me the name of the candidate for this position whom they considered to be the most suitable to occupy it. His qualifications are as follows:—He completed a secondary school course and was awarded a prize as the result of a Middle Grade examination. In 1923 he entered the Gárda Síochána and was promoted a sergeant at the end of the year. Subsequently he sat for the superintendent's examination and secured third place. He resigned from the Gárda Síochána owing to the fact that an injury to his knee necessitated the amputation of the lower limb. He now has an artificial limb and can walk fairly well. Since his recovery he has been employed in Wicklow as a teacher of Irish under the Gaelic League. He has excellent knowledge of police duties and court procedure. That is the report I received from the Appointments Commissioners.

Mr. COBURN

Is the in receipt of a pension as a result of his injury?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

So far as I know, he is not.

Mr. COBURN

You are not sure?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

No. Here is a young man who has had training and experience in the work of the courts when in the Guards as Superintendent. In the Guards it was necessary for him to have a good knowledge of procedure in the District Court. He has that knowledge. He is a young man of ability, and he is the man who the Civil Service Commissioners, taking everything into consideration, say was most suited to the position. The Deputy said that this man did not comply with the terms of the advertisement. It was not made compulsory that an applicant for this position should, at the time of the examination, be residing in the country. It said that preference would be given to local persons, that is to say, when other things were equal a local man would be selected. Here the other things were not equal.

Mr. COBURN

In view of the fact that the Minister for Justice is a member of the legal profession, does he contend that a member of the Civic Guard, no matter how long his experience may be, is better qualified for a position of this kind than one who has passed an examination for solicitors' apprentices?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is not that a point of argument?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I would have no hesitation in saying that a person who passed an examination for solicitors' apprentices would, in all human probability, not know the first thing about practice in District Courts.

Mr. COBURN

Or a solicitor's clerk with twenty-five years' experience?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

It would depend on what sort of work he did. Many solicitors' clerks spend their lifetime at conveyancing, and have never been inside a District Court. That, however, is not the question at issue. So far as I am concerned, the Civil Service Commissioners sent on the name of the person to me, and I am perfectly satisfied that he is suitable to fill that position. Accordingly he has been appointed, and I am satisfied that it was the correct thing to do.

Mr. O'HANLON

Would the Minister reply to Deputy Coburn's statement that the candidate who has been successful did not sit at the examination with the other candidates?

Mr. BLYTHE

This examination was not competitive, but qualifying. Out of about 34 candidates 12 passed the qualifying examination. This particular man sat for the qualifying examination in connection with another District Court clerkship and passed it. Consequently he was not required to sit on this occasion and he did not sit.

Mr. O'HANLON

Were the papers set at that examination the same as those set for the other?

Mr. BLYTHE

No. They were of the same standard, but the same set of papers could not be set again.

Mr. COBURN

Why was he not appointed?

Mr. BLYTHE

The previous appointment was one in connection with which he would have to do a good deal of cycling. His name was submitted by the Civil Service Commissioners on a previous occasion, but the late Minister for Justice held that if it were a case where much cycling would not be required he would be quite suitable, but not where there was a good deal of cycling required to be done. He requested the Civil Service Commissioners to reconsider the matter and submit another name. On that occasion the Civil Service Commissioners submitted the name of the man second on the list. For the present appointment the Minister for Justice did not think that the artificial limb was an impediment which would prevent the man being selected. He previously sat at the qualifying examination, which was purely qualifying, and when that was passed the order in which the men passed did not matter. The other qualifications and their age and general experience were taken into account. This man was put at the top of the list, and the Minister saw no reason why he should urge the Civil Service Commissioners to put the name of the second man on the list before him. With reference to the pension, I do not know whether he has one or not, but I presume he has not. If he has a pension it would be suspended during his tenure of the position, so that question does not affect the matter at all. I think Deputy Coburn has laboured under a misapprehension. The Minister for Justice has stated the position, that a preference for local candidates means other things being equal a local candidate would be appointed. I expressed the opinion that when the salary is as high as it is for this position—£375— there should be no preference given to local candidates. That preference should be given only where the salary is much smaller, and where it might be desirable for a man to have another appointment. What was in the advertisement, and no more than that, should be read into it, where men are equal in their ability to do the work preference would be given to the local candidate. The person who received the appointment is highly qualified, and for the second time has been recommended for one of these posts. I thought on the previous occasion it was extremely hard luck that he was turned down after being recommended. Now, where you have a position where there are urban courts, and the difficulty of getting around not so great, I think it would be a crying shame if he was not appointed.

Mr. O'HANLON

A point arising out of that is that the Civil Service Commissioners are not, as we were lead to understand, an independent body. In other words, they can be influenced by the Minister as to whom they recommend for a position.

Mr. BLYTHE

No.

Mr. O'HANLON

This was supposed to be a qualifying examination. When an examination is held by the Civil Service Commissioners the ordinary man, the man in the street, understands it is to be an honest competitive examination, and that the names will be submitted of those who have passed that examination and who got the highest number of marks. Now it has emerged that the Minister can be influenced as to the names to be sent forward.

Mr. BLYTHE

No. The Minister appoints on the recommendation of the Civil Service Commissioners. If Deputy O'Hanlon had been longer in the Dáil he would remember there was a discussion here with reference to an appointment in a wireless station. A name was recommended to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, but he refused to make the appointment. The Civil Service Commissioners were not prepared to make a second recommendation, for they did not see the Minister had any reason for refusing to make the appointment. The position remained vacant for over a year. The matter was the subject of debate here. The Minister could get no other name, and finally he had to fill the position by appointing the person recommended by the Civil Service Commissioners. With regard to the previous appointment, for which Molloy applied and was recommended, the late Minister for Justice declined to make the appointment recommended by the Civil Service Commissioners, and he stated to them his reason for doing so—that the man was unable to do the work owing to the difficulties he would have in cycling in connection with his work, as he suffered from the disadvantage of having an artificial limb, and he asked that another recommendation should be made to him. The Civil Service Commissioners considered the Minister's objection to the appointment, and they thought in that case, unlike the case of the Postmaster-General, the Minister had reason in his objection, and they submitted a second name to him. That is all that happened. It was within the discretion of the Civil Service Commissioners to submit another name or not as they chose. When they saw reason in the Minister's argument they agreed to submit a second name. It would be open to them if they choose to select two names instead of one. On at least one occasion I had two names submitted to me for an appointment by the Civil Service Commissioners, as they regarded the men nearly equal and they put them in the order of preference. I took the first recommended, but as two were submitted I could have appointed either. As far as that was concerned, no influence was exercised on the Civil Service Commissioners. With regard to the question of a qualifying or competitive examination, if an examination is competitive the person who gets most marks must be appointed.

Mr. COBURN

Has the particular person in this case received most marks because he had been a member of the Civic Guards?

Mr. BLYTHE

Will the Deputy realise in that case it was not a competitive examination but a qualifying one, the qualifying point being 50 per cent. of the marks, and it did not matter how many more marks a person got than that?

The examination was solely a qualifying examination and the appointment was by means of selection. There are many cases in which you have appointments by selection without any examination at all. Probably if you had only a couple of candidates here they would not go to the trouble of having a qualifying examination but would test their educational efficiency in some other way. But the qualifying examination was resorted to. Therefore, the whole thing was absolutely normal, regular and above board and such that nobody has any proper grounds for cavilling about it.

Mr. O'HANLON

Arising out of what the Minister has said, it is clear to me that the gentleman appointed in this case was marked down by the Civil Service Commissioners for the first available position that suited his physical incapacity.

Mr. BLYTHE

No. The Deputy is quite wrong in that.

Mr. O'HANLON

Why did they issue an advertisement bringing men up from the County Louth to stand an examination for a position which a man was already marked down for?

Mr. BLYTHE

The Deputy is entirely wrong. He should not work up these suspicions without some good grounds. The Civil Service Commissioners did not select the candidates themselves. They appointed a Selection Board. The Selection Board for different appointmens is differently constituted, and this man came up again before a different Selection Board and was recommended first to the Civil Service Commissioners.

Mr. O'HANLON

At a different examination.

Mr. BLYTHE

It was not a question of examination; it was selection by the Selection Board. The examination was merely a qualifying one to enable a man to go before the Selection Board. Deputy O'Hanlon is speaking of things that have no existence at all.

Mr. COBURN

I asked the Minister for Justice if he thinks it fair for the members of the Civil Service Appointments Commission to bring up to Dublin six or seven candidates to sit for a qualifying examination thereby putting them to unnecessary expense, when as a matter of fact the appointment was made.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I beg your pardon. There was no such statement.

Mr. COBURN

What was the necessity——

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

If the Deputy asks a question he might at least allow me to reply. What happened was that the Civil Service Commissioners decided that amongst the persons who had passed the qualifying examination he was the best suited for the post. They decided that this particular candidate was better suited than any other candidate.

Mr. O'HANLON

Owing to his physical defects?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

No; the only weakness he had——

Mr. COBURN

To save a pension to the State. Was not that it?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

As far as I know he had no pension. The leg was the only weakness in the man's candidature.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy Coburn and Deputy O'Hanlon are upholding the tradition that has been established with regard to adjournment debates, namely, that Ministers will not be allowed to reply, and upon that I think we may adjourn.

The House adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 3 o'clock on Wednesday, March 7th, 1928.