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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Mar 1928

Vol. 22 No. 12

SUPPLEMENTARY AND ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES—RESUMED. - VOTE 71—INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL PROPERTY REGISTRATION OFFICE.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £7,082 chun ioctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na hoifige Clárathachta Mhaoine Tionnscail agus Tráchtála. (Uimh, 16 do 1927.)

That a sum not exceeding £7,082 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1928, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Industrial and Commercial Property Registration Office (No. 16 of 1927.)

I am very sorry, but I was unable to hear one single word said by the Minister. I think it is rather a pity that the words of wisdom which come from the Front Benches are so often inaudible. Would it be in order, or would it be too much, to ask that the Minister should speak in such a manner that those who desire to deal with this Vote would have some idea of what he is dealing with? I have not been able to hear a single word, nor, in practice, have we been able to hear, as a rule, even a quarter of the wisdom that comes from the Front Benches in the announcement of the order of business. Until it is repeated by the Chair, as a rule we have no knowledge whatever what business is before the House, in what order it is to be taken, or otherwise. I do think that, having regard to the amount of education upon economic, social, political and other matters which is so freely and voluntarily handed out to us from the Front Bench opposite, the Deputies there might themselves take a little trouble to go to some elementary school of elocution and enable us at least to hear, even if we cannot be expected to understand, their wisdom.

The Minister has now, having completely obscured the issue with his unintelligibility of declaration, obscured himself; he has departed from the House. I think that coming events cast their shadows before them, but I am afraid that it is the intelligibility of the things that they have said, both in relation to this and in relation to other Votes, that will be most effective in removing not merely one Minister but the whole of the Ministers from that Front Bench. We are dealing—I am gradually coming to it——

Hear, hear!

I am very gradually coming to it. We are dealing with a particular Vote which includes patents and industrial property in this State. We have set up what apparently is a very expensive Department; it is going to cost us something like £17,000 a year, as far as I can understand. I can understand that quite clearly, but what we are getting for it is not by any means so clear. Are we getting a Department whose purpose is to maintain the rights of this country in relation to industrial property, or are we just going to carry on the tradition of the Department which gave us that Bill, and which went out of its way, of its own wish, to attack in advance a decision of the court which stated that we had industrial property in patents in this country. In regarding a Vote of this kind you have to regard the history and the mentality of the Department which takes care of it.

Not at all. It enables us to have some respect for the particular Vote and the particular law which we are supposed to fulfil. The purpose of an Industrial Property Act is to see that certain contracts which are entered into by the State with an individual in relation to a new manufacture shall accrue in advantage to that State and, above all, to the residents in that State. We have set up a particular system, which, for a little country of less than three million people, sets upon those who come to apply for a patent in that State a cost out of all proportion to the cost of the same services received from other countries. We have set up a system which compels us to pay to somebody outside the Government for what the Government is supposed to give us more even than we pay the Government. You can get a patent in France and in two or three other countries for the price at which you can apply for a patent in the Free State. You can get a patent for England and for the Free State cheaper than you can get a patent for the Free State alone. That is rather remarkable.

Will the Deputy substantiate that?

If that baby would only be good!

Mr. BYRNE

If the Deputy would only be logical!

He is evidently quite impossible. Some day I shall have to spank that baby.

Mr. BYRNE

That may be more difficult than you anticipate.

All right. He has not got a place to be spanked on. You laid down this extraordinary regulation. that in order to get a patent in the Free State you either have to have a certificate from the British Government that you already have a patent there, or you have to have a certificate from a patent agent that he has gone through the British Register for fifty years and found that there is no such patent recorded. That is the basis of your patent. It is a patent by reference, and a patent by reference only.

Is the Deputy talking about a regulation in the Act?

A regulation contained in the Act?

The Act itself.

The Act itself does not arise for discussion now. The Act is already passed, and we cannot change it in this way.

What I am suggesting is that we are suffering from heavy costs on account of a Department which has been set up and which is going to cost £17,000 to produce nothing of value. The patent which you get is not worth the paper it is written on. A patent is a contract between a State and an individual in which, in consideration of that individual divulging for use knowledge which he has of a new manufacture, the State gives him the monopoly of the use of that for a certain period of years. Now, the validity and value and use of that patent depends altogether on the amount of care which is taken by the State in seeing that that thing is in itself new. The British patent agent's inquiry into the British records gives you something which is practically of negligible value. In any developing industry the examination to-day will not include the things which are going through, and when you get your patent it is not worth it.

I have here a series of patents which illustrate very accurately the value of the commercial property which is being given to the community at this high price. Take the case, first, of your patent agent's examination. All that includes is the statement that in a particular patent office there is not a record for fifty years. Anything which was invented fifty-two years ago you can get a patent for, and it is of no value when you have got it. Assume you take the other line, and go through and get a British patent, and you bring it back here and register it and pay your fees in relation to it, what is it worth? Unless it is backed by the patent of some other country, which does make a proper examination, it is not worth the paper it is written on. I have here a patent which was taken out in England through one of the most prominent and most accomplished patent agents there. It has eleven separate claims, two of which are generic, which would make it a master patent. It went through without any difficulty, and is capable of being registered in the Irish Free State. It went to America, and the report of the American Patent Office was that there was not one single claim in it, generic or otherwise, which they would pass. I have here another British patent which, after it had been passed and registered, they discovered was bad. I will take another case of a British patent that I know went through. It had four claims, and it was a very fine patent indeed. The man started manufacturing the goods under it, brought them to England, and a man showed him on his shelves in England actual things for sale, made in America under an American patent, which completely voided and made useless his own.

My objection to spending this £17,000 or so is that we are putting a whole lot of people to a lot of quite unnecessary expense merely to get a patent by reference to, probably, one of the patents in the world. In France they will accept for registration practically anything you give them. They give you a brevet; they mark it "Not guaranteed by the Government." You know what you are getting. In the Free State you are getting a patent which ought to be marked "Not guaranteed by anybody," and in itself of no use to anybody unless it is guaranteed by an American patent. If we had taken the line of saying "Let us have a search through the American Patent Office," then we would probably get something of value. If we had taken the line of saying "Simply let us register this patent. as they do in France and other countries, and then let the man fight for his patent on the value of what is actually contained in the document." we would have done something reasonable and logical. We have done neither one nor the other. We have pretended to set up a patent which simply is not worth anything. That is why I say you have to take into account in this matter the history of this office and find out whether they really did mean to give us any property in our patent, or whether this is purely a revenue department; whether we are simply trying to collect money, and if we are, we could collect it much more cheaply than by setting up a Department which will cost £17,000.

When our courts did declare that we had industrial property in all existing patents in this State, we introduced deliberately an Act to upset in advance any further decision of the courts which would uphold that decision. When I came to look up that Act, typical of quite a whole lot of rubbish which has been poured through this House, as through a funnel, in the name of laws, I find that this actual law which was introduced to upset that did not exist. It had never been reduced even to written form. It simply consisted of its short title. I have been through the thing, looking for it. I may be wrong. I tried to find it in the House, but I am informed that it was purely and simply a bogey man, put up to tell the courts which said we had industrial property in this country that we were not going to have the black flag of piracy raised by the courts or anybody else. That is the meaning of it; that is the mentality.

The Deputy must come to this Estimate. Up to the present he has been criticising. as far as I can gather, the Industrial and Commercial Property Act. Nothing else. He must come to the Estimate, without criticising that Act or any other Act. The question at issue is this sum of money for this particular office, not the Act, or the question of patents in general.

I am criticising it on the ground that we are setting up a new extravagant department of State: that we are going to spend £17,000 in doing nothing of any particular value as far as patents are concerned. When we come to discuss this as a whole Estimate we will go into the other details, but there is no more dust in the sunbeam than in the rest of the room. So far as patent legislation is concerned and the Department is concerned and the Industrial Property Act is concerned this £17,000 spent upon it is simply waste of money. If it is going to be used purely and simply as a means of collecting revenue well and good. But let us say so, and let us put up a cheap department for collecting money; but do not let us continue the farce of pretending to set up anything in the form of an industrial property department, because we have not done anything of the kind.

Now that we have listened to the oration of Demosthenes, and have had an oration telling us how we are to prepare to deliver our speeches in this House, and now that the big gun from Cork has thrown off all its shells, I shall endeavour to apply the test of commonsense to the problem before us. We are asked to pass an estimate of £7,082, as I see it on the Paper. The Deputy referred to a sum of £17,000. He is just as accurate in that statement as he is in the other statements he made to the House. He held up here, for our edification, the conditions of the various patent systems that are in operation in other countries, and one of those systems to which he referred to was the French system. He told us what could be done in France, and he compared what we were doing in Ireland to what was being done in France, to the disadvantage of the former as pure waste of time and money. I know perfectly well I am in order in answering arguments put forward by Deputies in this House, but my own commonsense tells me that that argument has very little to do with the particular estimate—a matter to which the Ceann Comhairle has called attention.

The Chair does not admit the principle that when one Deputy is out of order another may follow him equally out of order. I do not admit that principle. I would prefer that the debate should be confined to the Estimate.

Mr. BYRNE

I venture to lay before the House one or two details of the French system just so much eulogised by Deputy Flinn. Under the French system you are given first a stamp of receipt of specification, but it leaves the question of prior application to be afterwards determined. In one word, all that is done by the French system is merely official sanction given with regard to the date of registration, and nothing more. And that is all that comes of all the talk and eloquence and noise and thunder that we heard from Deputy Flinn. I think it would be in the interests of the constituents he represents that he should apply commonsense, and a little courtesy as well as commonsense, when dealing with problems of this kind.

May I now come to another statement he made as to the cost of specifications in the Free State and the huge sums that he said we have to pay for these. I find that on an application accompanied by a provisional specification the huge sum of fifteen shillings has to be paid. On filling up the complete specification the sum of £2 5s has to be paid. On application for the result of the search in the various sections £1, and on the sealing of the patent another £1. These are the gigantic sums that have to be spent in the Saorstát upon the patents.

Will the Deputy give way to me for a moment?

Mr. BYRNE

Not for one second. I am pointing out, dealing with this question purely as a financial estimate, that under this Act very substantial benefits will accrue to the inventor in the Free State. I may point out that it protects Irish genius and Irish inventive skill. It will protect the Irish trade marks, which were very inefficiently protected. In dealing with that matter very briefly, I may say baby and all as I am in the eyes Deputy Flinn, that one pound of experience is worth a ton of oratory such as we have listened to, and the experience that I can give is practical experience. I shall, as a business man, take an article that is coming into this country for many years. I do not know whether the Deputy is a business man or not, but from the way he talks it appears to me that he is not. Hitherto articles could come in here ostensibly bearing Irish trade marks that were absolutely of foreign origin. This Act effectively puts an end to that system of duping people into buying as Irish goods that were not made in Ireland. For many years, in my own particular business, I have sold a shovel branded with a shamrock. I have had people coming into my shop demanding Irish shamrock shovels, and I have had specifications from various councils throughout the country demanding Irish shamrock shovels. And although, from time to time, I recommended Irish goods and pointed out that this particular shovel was made in Birmingham and not in the Saorstát, it has still been looked for, because the shamrock brand was on it. Has the Deputy any cross-Channel experience in these matters? Does he realise the piracy that has gone on for years in the selling of goods as Irish which were not Irish? Does he know that if he wants "a Jameson" in England it is impossible to get it unless he sees the label. The Deputy talks about babies, but I never met a greater baby than the Deputy. He has not yet cut his eye-teeth as far as patents are concerned.

The Deputy is talking like a powerful baby.

Under this Act we have one very important thing. You must have money to work this particular office, and for that expenditure we get one very important thing in return, which I suggest is worth the whole of the amount involved. It will prevent the exploitation of foreign patents for the benefit of non-nationals in this country. I suggest to the high-sounding, oratorical Deputy on the other side that that fact is worth the money alone. A monopoly will be given to Irish brains, and we will have the prevention of abuses such as the registration of dud patents with the object of commercial exploitation. The Deputy talks so learnedly of all these things that one feels reluctant to get up and reply. We are living in one of the most progressive ages through which the human race has ever passed. In these days one single invention could, perhaps, revolutionise the whole future of this country. There is a case for patent rights in America with regard to various things involving the motor car industry, and the sum involved is one hundred thousand millions, yet we are told in this House that this extravagant Estimate of £7,000 is beyond all human comprehension and should be rejected.

I suggest that the Deputy should go back to school. It is for £17,000.

It is for £7,282. I suggest that the Deputy ought to read the figures again. His interrup tions are characterised by want of knowledge. Let us put the plain question that matters, so far as this Estimate is concerned. Is this a paying proposition to the Free State? Are the people getting good value for their money, or are all the allegations of Deputy Flinn true? It is estimated on the credit side of this Vote that we will have incomings to the amount of £27,500. That money, even if Deputy Flinn is correct and even if we have to expend a sum of £17,000, although the figure before the House is only £7,000, will give a return of cent. per cent. If the Deputy whose high-sounding phrases almost bored us to death could apply his common sense to this matter he would be more careful in his statements and would not put forward senseless and ridiculous arguments fit only for a baby's school.

When Deputy Flinn puts on the motley, as he generally does, one can expect anything. Out of the flow of oratory to which we have listened we have only got one simple fact, the fact that the Deputy did not want to pay £1 for registration of a patent.

Ten pounds.

That is at the back of the whole thing. That is the whole cause of the Deputy's oratory. The Deputy does not want to pay a single pound for the registration of a patent.

Is not the Deputy entitled to correct that statement? Deputy Flinn contradicted it and said "ten pounds."

The general idea under which the House is now working is that Deputies in Opposition can say what they like, as often as they like, but other people must not be allowed to speak without interruption. If Deputies in Opposition would consider that the question is not concerning the rights of the individuals who now constitute the Government, but of Governments in general, they will, perhaps, realise that Governments in this House will always claim certain rights.

The Minister is making what is tantamount to a charge against the Deputy.

The Deputy has made a statement with which the Minister does not agree. We would not, in fact, be here at all unless we all made statements with which others did not agree.

We only hear from Deputy MacEntee puerilities, the juvenility of which should shame his years. Deputy Flinn talked about intelligibility and elocution. I do not profess to be a student of elocution like Deputy Flinn, but I have not had anything made intelligible to me by the Deputy with regard to this estimate. There is a certain amount involved under the Act, which was passed through this House when the Deputy was fighting on the hills, and when his principles would not allow him to come into this House. It is a pity that we had not the benefit of his elocution when the Bill was going through. It is now an Act. We established an office under that Act and we are giving a patent which is a commercial property, and the mere fact that the Deputy says it is not carries no weight with me. When Deputy Byrne asked Deputy Flinn to substantiate his statement by facts the Deputy slipped away from facts and we have had none given. We have had a statement of the Deputy's views. We have it alleged that a patent granted in England was regarded by the United States as being no good. In that regard it may be said that a patent granted in France might be regarded here as no good. There is a difference in connection with such matters. Some countries give patents of little commercial value and charge very little for them. France is one of such countries. Deputy Byrne has corrected Deputy Flinn and given him sound information about patents which probably the Deputy did not know before.

Well, he did not give it to the House before. He said that a British patent could not be accepted at its full value in the United States. To say that a patent granted in the Irish Free State would not be accepted in the United States, and that it would not be of commercial value is not true. We may, indeed, go the length, as they do in some countries, of giving a guarantee that if such patent were upset there would be compensation paid. We do not propose to do that. We set up an office, we have staffed it, and there will be revenue obtained from citizens to whom we gave a good commercial property of a specific type. Has there been the slightest evidence from Deputy Flinn as to what value this office does give? Has anybody been made the wiser by all that has been said here by Deputy Flinn about this estimate? Why are we discussing this matter on an estimate for setting up an office which was established by law and which I was bound to establish by the law as passed by this House? The office has been established. A Comptroller has been appointed. His salary, and the salaries of the different officials, who are considered necessary for running the office are set out. I am asking for money to pay them. The office is running according to law. The Bill dealing with this intricate and complicated subject was withdrawn after its introduction in order to get better views upon it. It was reintroduced later, and it took almost eighteen months to pass. It was subject to a special examination by a Select Committee of both Houses, and we had on that Committee people of much more legal ability and much more skill in worldly matters than is possessed by Deputy Flinn.

They have decided that a patent given under this Act was a valuable property and worth the money we set out to get by way of fees. If Deputy Flinn wishes to make out that the office is not doing its duty, he must make it on the basis that it is not doing the duty appointed to it under the Act. If he says such duties under the Act are useless and of no benefit to the public, let him bring forward a motion for the amendment of the Act, and when he does so let him substantiate his case by facts and not by mere statements by way of debate. Another matter has been brought forward and which, though not as important as other matters, I might be allowed to deal with, as it gives a completely wrong impression to the House about a Bill that only advanced as far as the Second Reading. Deputy Flinn said that Mr. Justice Meredith gave a decision establishing industrial and commercial property in this country. The effect of the judgment was that the particular patent could not be held valid in this country. inasmuch as that was contrary to all the views previously held, and inasmuch as it was the view that ran through the whole of the Patents Act, a Bill was introduced so that if that judgment went through it should be accepted, but we would establish by law from that date a new situation which we believed to be the old situation. The Bill was not proceeded with, for the action, which was an interlocutory one, was not proceeded with, and there was no necessity to go further. This Act re-established the position that everyone believed had been here and that everyone desired to have here. The Deputy made a completely wrong statement with regard to the judgment.

I did not.

He also said the Department had gone out of its way to attack in advance a judgment of the court. The fact is that the day the Bill was introduced the judgment was before the House. How then could it be said to be attacked in advance? It was before the House when legislation was introduced and there was no attack in advance on the judgment.

Was there an appeal?

No. It was an interlocutory motion. The judgment was clear and precise, and there was no attack on it. There was a recognition of it in a speech made by the late Minister for Justice. The judges had their say, and that had to be recognised as the law for the time being, but we had to establish a law for the future, and it is the duty of this House to establish law for the future. I am asking the House not to vote £17,000, as Deputy Corry seems to imagine, nor even the £17,000 Deputy Flinn managed to bring into this estimate, but a sum of £7,000, against which we have revenue amounting to £27,000. If in a normal year I found the expense of the office was only going to be twice £7,000, and the revenue in a normal year twice £27,000, I would immediately set about reducing the fees. If the office was bringing in £27,000, and the expenditure only £7,000 in a half year, obviously the fees would be too high. A considerable number of trade mark and patent applications were registered here pending the passing of this Act. The first six months were spent in clearing off arrears and collecting money due for registration of patents here from those who wished to have their patents given force and effect in the Saorstát. It is not certain that the revenue will be £27,000. It is impossible to estimate accurately what it will be. It may be £27,000, or it might easily be under £27,000. I do not regard the Deputy's admission or negation as worth anything for this reason, that the statement given here puts down £15,000 as given for trade marks. There has been recently, and even since the estimate was printed, a rush for applications for trade marks, and that £15,000 could easily be doubled as a correct estimate of the moneys likely to be received before the end of this year. It looks as if the trade mark is likely to be more remunerative, whereas the patents side will likely fall. It is possible that the estimate of revenue originally put down with regard to the half year may be realised. Even in a normal half year, if that is the case, there would be a case for reducing the fees. At the moment fees are being charged on property which is being given, and it is good property and worth the consideration asked for it.

May I ask what is the cost of the patent agent's certificate when a patent does not appear in the British Registry within the last fifty years?

I cannot say. I believe it is in the regulations.

The Minister does not know that, and I do know it. It is the business of his Department to know it before putting it into an Act. It is twice the amount.

It is cheaper and not as high.

I know what it costs, as I paid it. It costs twice as much as the other cost of getting a patent in the Free State or England, and the cost of getting a search in the American Registry, which is infinitely more valuable, is no more. I am asking for figures before this additional charge is imposed upon anyone who wants a patent in this country, a charge which does not go to the Free State, and which is twice as much as the Free State gets. I call that lunacy.

I am not prepared to argue with the Deputy's figures. I know that the figures are at my disposal, and I could reveal them after a search. but these things do not arise on this Estimate.

They arise out of your case against Deputy Flinn.

They do not. If Deputy Aiken understood anything about patents he would understand that. That is merely backing a colleague who has erred in his statements. I am allowed to charge certain fees set in the Act. and I am allowed to set out other fees under the regulations. As long as I have that power I can charge fees and establish regulations. They do not come under this Estimate, and as they cannot be raised under it I am not prepared to argue them.

Would the Minister not think it fair to the House, when asking for a Vote for his Department, that he should state what service the Department is giving, and what charges people must pay for that service?

I am prepared, when a case is made that they are exorbitant, or that they are not enough, to justify the charges, but I am not prepared to come with my memory burdened with all these figures regarding the different stages of applications.

Is not the Minister responsible to the House for the administration of his Department? Is not the question of the fees charged by that Department an administrative one. and are we not entitled on the Estimates to discuss the administration of the Department. including the fees?

I have not said it is not allowable.

Would the Minister not think it fair that the voting of this money should be postponed until he comes here armed with the fullest facts and figures and gives them to the House to enable Deputies to arrive at a fair decision? The Minister charged Deputy Flinn with saying that it required £10 to secure a patent in the Free State, and the Minister said it only required £1. One of these statements must be right. Why not postpone the matter until the Minister is prepared to give the information about the working of his Department?

It is clearly impossible to get this matter threshed out when Deputy Aiken attributes to me what Deputy Flinn said, and to Deputy Flinn what I said.

I do not want the Minister to withdraw anything he said in relation to myself, but I do want him to clear up the point. He has said that I only used myself purely as a vehicle in the matter, that "Deputy Flinn's objection is that he does not want to pay £1 for an Irish patent." That was said two or three times, and it gives the House the idea that one could get in some way an Irish patent for £1. I do not want to go into that to any great extent, because we are coming back to it. The regulation is that to get a patent in the Free State you have got to do two of three things. You have got to apply to the Department of Industry and Commerce, and you have to make a provisional application, and then your final application. You pay the fees which Deputy Byrne knows about. One is fifteen shillings. They are slightly lower than the British figures.

Considerably lower.

And in addition, in order to make that patent of any validity and get it sealed, you have to do one of two other things; you have got to pay the whole of the charges up to the acceptance of the final specification in the British Patent Office. Now, the cheapest you can do that for is slightly more than the cost of taking out a Free State patent. Therefore it has got to cost you twice as much, but you have no alternative. You can go and get a British patent agent to go through the files and provide a Ministry of Trade and Commerce certificate that the subject matter which you are claiming is not included in the British file for fifty years. To get that from a competent professional man whose verdict it would be commercially wise to rely upon will cost twice as much as the cost in the Irish Free State for the patent. There is one other matter on which I would like to say a word by way of explanation, because I do not believe the Minister wants to misrepresent it. I have here a document dated December, 1924, which says:

Know ye, therefore, that we, of our especial grace, certain knowledge, and mere motion do by these presents, for us, our heirs and successors, give and grant unto the said our especial license, full power, sole privilege, and authority, that the said patentee by himself, his agents, or licensees, and no others, may at all times hereafter during the term of years herein mentioned, make, use, exercise, and vend the said invention within our United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and Isle of Man....

That is December, 1924, and that patent has fourteen years to run. It is the subject matter of the British patent that was submitted in the form and through an American patent agent, an accomplished and properly qualified man—the subject matter of a patent which had eleven claims, two of which were generic, every one of which was passed by the British Office. The whole of that subject matter was submitted to the American Patent Office, and their answer is as follows:—

All the claims are further rejected on the Hammond patent on the ground of an existing patent.

They rejected them on about five other grounds. I do know something about the commercial value of the patent, and I know that any patent rejected in America on the ground of the Hammond patent is not worth the paper it is written on as a commercial proposition. That patent here which has been rejected as of no value—and I know from actual experience from trying to use it that it has no commercial value—can be registered in the Free State so long as I am prepared either to pay the charges in the Free State and more than that to the British Government to register it or to pay twice as much to a British patent agent to tell me it does not exist in the records for fifty years. The Minister says I am not prepared to pay £1. I say to him that he ought to know within the terms of his own Act that I am compelled to pay not merely £1 or £3 in order to get that patent but that I have to pay more than I paid to the British Government or to pay twice as much as I pay to him to the British patent agent before he will allow me to register my patent.

I stated, and I state again, that the Deputy's trouble and the Deputy's annoyance arises out of the demand made on him by my Department for £1 for a process in regard to an application for a patent. From that I do not move. Twenty shillings was all that was in dispute.

The question is, was it rightly or wrongly asked?

I wonder if the Deputy considered himself in a position to argue the point, whether it was or not? Does he know anything about the regulations that were issued under the Act, or is that just a meaningless observation?

Is the Minister in order in imputing base motives to a Deputy?

I simply submit this: I do not know the exact circumstances under which this £1 was demanded. I ask you to answer whether that £1 was rightly or wrongly demanded.

What is Deputy Lemass's point of order?

The Minister has insinuated that because there was a dispute between his Department and Deputy Flinn over £1 Deputy Flinn is opposing this Vote. I say that that is a suggestion that should not be made. We must presume at any rate that the Deputy is acting on behalf of his constituents, and certainly in this matter he has the support of his Party.

And he himself is one of his constituents. With regard to the reading of that document, I do not know what the effect of that was intended to be, except to give the idea to the House that there was an appreciation on the other side that the Deputy had some affiliation, native or otherwise, with the Isle of Man. Outside that I do not know what the effect of the recital of that particular screed was intended to have. The fees that are charged and the fees that will continue to be charged do not arise on this Estimate. Certain fees are laid down in the Act. Certain regulations are established with regard to fees. These are published. Deputy Aiken could have taken the trouble to burden himself with them for this debate. The Deputy can read the Act; he can possibly understand it, and he could have come in here and argued with regard to that.

The Minister should have burdened his mind with them before he contradicted something that he did not know about.

I have contradicted it. I think the Deputy does not know where he is, and the Deputy behind him might have instructed him on the point. As far as the general regulations and fees are concerned they do not arise on this Vote. They cannot arise. If people want them changed there is a method of having a discussion on the advisability of changing them. There is a method of having such a discussion, but it is certainly not on this Estimate. This Estimate is for a body set up in accordance with an Act passed by the House. The matters that should arise on that are: Are the salaries insufficient or sufficient? Is the office overstaffed or understaffed? And so on. I do not see how we can proceed to argue what the Act has laid down. If the office is doing things it should not do it could be queried on them, but nobody has made an allegation that the office is doing anything that is contrary to what the Act orders the office to do, and there is no allegation that it has been over-zealous in its duties.

I would like to ask the Minister a question.

Deputy Flinn has very skilfully succeeded in introducing into this matter a thing which he was told beforehand was out of order. We are debating a matter that does not concern this Estimate at all. On account of this particular remark about the £1, which was not very clear, I allowed the Deputy to make what I thought was going to be a personal explanation, which developed into another argument. We cannot get any further on the question of the Act on this Estimate. The whole matter of the Act and the regulations made under it do not come under this Vote at all. It is really for the expenses of the office which must be set up under the Act.

Deputy FLINN rose.

If Deputy Flinn's question is merely a question I will allow it, but I will not allow any more debate on it.

I am simply going to ask a question for information, if the Minister will have the courtesy to answer. It is a matter entirely for the Minister. Is it or is it not a fact that in order to get a patent in the Free State one has, at present, either to go to the stage of the acceptance of the final specification in the British Patent Office, or to get the certificate of a patent agent that the subject matter of that patent is not covered within 50 years on the British records?

That is not a complete statement of the law. The law is to be found in a particular Act, the Industrial and Commercial Property Act of 1927. In other words, I say that what the Deputy has stated is not so.

He has asked a question.

And my answer is "no."

That is all I want.

Might I ask the Minister if he will tell us the cost from the first presentation of the provisional specification to the final payment for the specification?

That is in the Act.

The Minister does not know the answer.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 81; Níl, 49.

  • William P. Aird.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • Richard Anthony.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Ernest Blythe.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Michael Brennan.
  • Henry Broderick.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • Alfred Byrne.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Edmund Carey.
  • Archie J. Cassidy.
  • John James Cole.
  • Mrs. Margt. Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Hugh Colohan.
  • Martin Conlan.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • Richard Corish.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • James Crowley.
  • John Daly.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Peter de Loughrey.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • Edmund John Duggan.
  • James Dwyer.
  • Barry M. Egan.
  • James Everett.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • John Good.
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • Alexander Haslett.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • Michael Joseph Hennessy.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Patrick Hogan (Galway).
  • Richard Holohan.
  • Michael Jordan.
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Myles Keogh.
  • Hugh Alexander Law.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Joseph W. Mongan.
  • Daniel Morrissey.
  • Richard Mulcahy.
  • James E. Murphy.
  • Timothy Joseph Murphy.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin Michael Nally.
  • Richard O'Connell.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Timothy Joseph O'Donovan.
  • John F. O'Hanlon.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • Gearoid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • William Archer Redmond.
  • Patrick Reynolds.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • Michael Tierney.
  • Daniel Vaughan.
  • John White.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.
  • Jasper Travers Wolfe.

Níl

  • Frank Aiken.
  • Denis Allen.
  • Neal Blaney.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Patrick Boland.
  • Seán Brady.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Frank Carney.
  • Frank Carty.
  • Michael Clery.
  • James Colbert.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Martin John Corry.
  • Fred. Hugh Crowley.
  • Tadhg Crowley.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Hugo Flinn.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Seán French.
  • Patrick J. Gorry.
  • John Goulding.
  • Seán Hayes.
  • Samuel Holt.
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • Stephen Jordan.
  • William R. Kent.
  • James Joseph Killane.
  • Mark Killilea.
  • Michael Kilroy.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Ben Maguire.
  • Thomas McEllistrim.
  • Seán MacEntee.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Thomas Mullins.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Seán T. O'Kelly.
  • William O'Leary.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas O'Reilly.
  • Patrick J. Ruttledge.
  • James Ryan.
  • Timothy Sheehy (Tipperary).
  • Patrick Smith.
  • John Tubridy.
  • Richard Walsh.
  • Francis C. Ward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
Motion declared carried.
Barr
Roinn