With your permission, A Chinn Comhairle, I desire to raise a question as to a circular letter which has been sent to the farmers of the district known as the County Louth Black Scab Scheduled Area. The effect of that circular is that the removal of mangolds, turnips, and cabbage is prevented from within the scheduled area. I do not propose, at this stage, to go into the whole question of black scab in that area. It is sufficient to say that it has existed in the districts known as Carlingford and Greenore since the year 1917. The Order has extended to the whole district, which comprises 20,000 acres, on which were supported, in the year 1922, 3,000 families. My sole purpose in bringing this matter before the House is to have a statement from the Minister for Lands and Agriculture as to his reasons for issuing this circular. I quite appreciate the steps that have been taken in the past by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture in order to prevent this terrible disease from spreading throughout the Free State. Nobody quarrels with that—not even the people affected in this particular area. But, somehow or other, they are under the impression that the circular which has been sent out lately will press unduly upon them, inasmuch as it will prevent them from removing mangolds, turnips, or cabbages from within that area. I do not desire to trespass upon the time of the House unduly, but I await the statement of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, as it is anxiously awaited by the people of the district concerned. I hope it will be possible—perhaps after consultation with the Minister—to arrive at some agreement whereby this circular will be withdrawn, while at the same time safeguarding the interests, not alone of the farmers of that district, but also of the entire farming community of the Free State, which is really the backbone of the State so far as industry is concerned. I am quite prepared to leave it to the Minister for Lands and Agriculture to state the reasons which prompted his Department to send out this circular. There is only one sentence I wish to refer to, and that is the statement that "the alarming spread of black scab disease elsewhere in recent years points to the conclusion that every practical measure should be adopted to prevent its spreading in the Irish Free State." I have underlined the word "elsewhere," for the simple reason that, as far as I know, no fresh outbreaks of black scab have been discovered outside the scheduled area. I want to know what the Minister means by "elsewhere." Is he referring to other districts in the Free State, or is he referring to the spread of the disease in England, where it is pretty general? Because of the spread of the disease there, the farmers in the Cooley area have been able to export their potatoes to England during the past ten or eleven years. That was because black scab prevailed generally throughout England. I should like the Minister to deal specially with the meaning of the word "elsewhere" and to explain what is really intended by the word.
GAELTACHT COMMISSION REPORT. - ADJOURNMENT—RESTRICTIONS IN LOUTH BLACK SCAB AREA.
Nobody will quarrel with the Minister for Lands and Agriculture for taking what steps may be necessary to prevent the spread of black scab. The one big, staple product of these people is potatoes. I am sure I would be correct in saying that that crop represents at least 75 per cent. of their income. They are very gravely dissatisfied—whether rightly so or not I do not know—with the actions of the Department of Agriculture and the methods adopted by it in dealing with black scab. Since the prohibition on the export of potatoes from the scheduled area to other parts of Ireland, free from black scab, which I think was imposed in 1907, up to the other day, potatoes, turnips and other vegetables were allowed to be exported. The people who are growing the potatoes, with many of whom I have spoken, are not clear whether or not the Department think that the disease is spread or carried in the potato itself or in the clay that clings to it when taken from the ground. They reason this way: If the disease is carried in the potato, the Department have insisted that nothing but immune varieties should be set in the scheduled area for the past twenty years or so. The Department's Inspectors go around and if they see a potato growing which is of a non-immune variety, they immediately issue an order to the grower to have that non-immune potato plucked up at once. That would occur in all cases. Only potatoes which will not contract the disease have been allowed to grow in this district for many years. At the same time, other agricultural produce was allowed to be exported, so that people thought that the disease was carried in the potato only. When they thought that it was carried in the potato only and not in cabbage or in the clay that clings to the potato, they pressed for a sale, in a safe way, to public institutions. They pressed for permits to sell potatoes to workhouses, hospitals, the Army and institutions of that kind. They pressed for an alternative market to England, to be provided in this way, for potatoes which are not subject to the disease. In one or two years it happened that potatoes were 4/- and 5/- per cwt. in Dundalk, while the people of Cooley could only get 1/- per cwt. for their products. They thought they should have been allowed permits to sell their potatoes to public institutions. I think it would be better to regularise the export of potatoes, so that the people should have an alternative market to the British market and be able to dispose of their potatoes in a safe way. No matter what police measures the Minister may take, there is no doubt that potatoes are leaving Cooley. There is more danger in this surreptitious method of exporting potatoes to the general farming community than there would be if potatoes of the type that would not get the disease were exported under licence to public institutions. I should like the Minister, if not now at some other time, to give fully the reasons for the methods the Department of Agriculture have taken for the last number of years —since the ban has been put on—in dealing with the black scab disease.
Under this Order, which was issued in 1928, the same procedure is adopted in regard to mangolds, turnips and cabbage as had been adopted in previous Orders in regard to potatoes. Black scab has been in existence for a long time in this area. I think there is only one other area in the Free State where you have the same state of affairs. In that respect we are in a very much more fortunate position than any other country. We are in a very much more fortunate position than Northern Ireland or Great Britain. In Great Britain, as Deputy Coburn has pointed out, black scab is fairly general. In Northern Ireland the position in regard to black scab is very much worse than it is in the Saorstát. That, of course, is due to the fact that potatoes were grown more intensively in Northern Ireland than they were here. But, whatever the reason, our position is very much more satisfactory here. This is a highly contagious disease.
In answer to Deputy Aiken's question, it is established beyond doubt that the disease can be carried not only by potatoes, which are susceptible, but also by the soil attaching to immune potatoes or to mangolds or turnips or cabbage—provided the disease is in the soil. They have, for many years, grown none but immune varieties in the Cooley district, but comparatively recently it was verified that black scab still remained in the soil. I was put a question by Deputy Aiken some time ago as to when the last case of black scab was discovered in Cooley. I forget the answer I gave. The Deputy may remember it.
The Minister said "last year."
Mr. HOGAN
The disease was then actually discovered in potatoes, notwithstanding the fact that the potatoes grown there were of immune varieties. It is almost impossible to get a variety which is absolutely pure, which will not occasionally develop some sort of throw-back, the technical term for which is "sport." That is a throw-back which has not the qualities of the product as it exists at the present moment. That is common to all varieties. Mangolds and turnips throw back as well— turnips especially. They all throw back some sort of "sport" or "cross," which loses the particular characteristics of the normal plant at the moment. In a case like this, the immune varieties occasionally throw out a cross potato, which is susceptible. You have occasionally examples of such potatoes even amongst immune varieties. Last year, "sports" were discovered which were found to be affected with black scab. There is no doubt that black scab is in the soil still and will affect potatoes. I am quite satisfied as to that. Some of the farmers up there may doubt the statement I am going to make, but I think there is no doubt about it—that the soil will carry the contagion and will affect susceptible varieties in other districts if they are brought in contact with it.
That is the problem in connection with the Cooley area, which is easily the best potato-growing district in Ireland. The facts are there. It is not such a hardship as it looks on the face of it to prohibit the export of potatoes from Cooley district to districts in the rest of the Saorstát. Their main trade is and will remain with England, because they grow a sort of potato which is not valued very much in this country but for which there is a very big market in England. If they were exporting their potatoes freely to Dundalk, the prices would be very different in Dundalk, and would compare closely with the prices they get in England. I have no doubt that would be so. If there was a free market from Cooley to Dundalk, I doubt if the price would be as good as it is in England.
There are farmers in a very small way in Cooley who would be delighted to bring their potatoes to Dundalk market. At the present time they have to amass them and bring them in bulk to Bush Station.
Mr. HOGAN
I have no doubt of that, but any advantages that would accrue from bringing them to Dundalk would not be widespread. Their main export trade is to England. They do essentially an export trade, and when we confine the export trade to England or to places outside the Free State, there is undoubtedly hardship, but it is not nearly as great as might otherwise accrue. It would be quite out of the question to allow potatoes to be removed out of the Cooley district to the rest of the Saorstát, and it would be a wanton act. The Saorstát is practically free from black scab. With the exception, I think, of Donegal and this area, it is free of black scab, which is quite the worst disease that could affect potatoes. The potato crop is a very important crop in this country. It would be a wanton act to allow the potatoes to be removed from this area in view of the fact that, though the potatoes may be immune, the sports of the potatoes would carry the disease and the soil would carry it. To do that would be asking for the same situation that exists in Northern Ireland and in England at present. It would be particularly bad, and particularly careless to allow that because for the last three or four years the potato trade of this country has been developing very quickly. In that connection, I might say that people who talk a lot about wheat and other crops do not seem to give the same attention to the potato crop. For some reason, into which I do not propose to enter, potatoes have been grown in this country for a long time, and they seem to have been very successful. They seem to suit the soil and climate of the country. There has been a big development in the export trade of potatoes— not so much of ware potatoes as of seed potatoes—to England in recent years, and we are reaching a point where the potatoes of the Saorstát are getting quite a reputation for seed. The export heretofore was almost entirely from Northern Ireland, but we are reaching a stage now in our export trade when it would be absolutely wanton to allow potatoes out of this district.
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but when I introduced this question I did not want to discuss the question of the export of potatoes; what I wanted to discuss was the movement of mangolds, turnips and cabbage out of the area. I should like the Minister, too, to explain the meaning he attaches to the word "elsewhere," when used in connection with "the alarming spread of black scab disease."
Mr. HOGAN
I was coming to the question of mangolds, turnips and cabbage. We considered the position. The disease can be carried in the soil. If we had been quite logical, we would have made an Order in the beginning prohibiting the export of mangolds, turnips and cabbage, as well as potatoes. The Order would not have meant much extra hardship because potatoes are the main export. People rarely sell mangolds, turnips and cabbage. On the other hand, there is a small market for mangolds in Dundalk. People buy mangolds there, but it is a comparatively small market in comparison with the export of potatoes. These vegetables have too much water to make it feasible to take transport costs out of the total price. They are mainly used by the farmers. I know there are cases in which they are sold.
At the beginning, if we had been quite logical we would have made an Order in connection with mangolds, turnips and cabbage, as well as potatoes, but at that time it was not established definitely, I think, that the clay-attaching to the roots of a tuber of that sort would carry the disease. That is established now, and when that was taken in conjunction with the fact that, for the last two years especially, the export trade of potatoes had developed considerably, we came to the conclusion that the time had come definitely when we should eliminate this rather considerable risk by preventing the removal of mangolds, turnips and cabbage out of the area. The amount of mangolds, turnips and cabbage removed for sale as a cash crop is extremely small. We think that at a time when we are trying to develop a very much bigger area for potato-growing, the export trade having developed largely because of our immunity from black scab, we would be neglecting an obvious precaution if we did not bring in that Order at this stage. As regards "elsewhere," that does not mean Saorstát Eireann. We have succeeded pretty well in controlling the disease in Saorstát Eireann. It is confined to Cooley and Donegal, and even there to a few areas. It is in order that we should confine it to them that we brought in this Order. If we let mangolds and turnips, with soil attaching to them which might carry the infection, be removed, we would be asking for trouble.
They have been removable for eleven years and there has been no specific case of black scab. My argument is that the removal of mangolds, turnips and cabbage has been going on since 1917 and that the Minister is unable to give any instance of black scab having occured as a result.
Mr. HOGAN
That is a point against me, but, on the other hand, it is proved absolutely that soil attaching to these vegetables can carry the disease. I admit it is not likely that soil would get in contact with other soils, but you can bring a pitcher too often to the water. It is probably because other countries neglected to take this type of precaution in time that the disease spread so rapidly in them. There are other reasons, of course. It was a much easier job for us, because we have not such a big area of potatoes, but the fact that other countries neglected to take these precautions in time was one of the factors which brought about the spread of the disease elsewhere. We allow sugar beet out of this area, but if we do, we make a special arrangement with the Carlow factory. The sugar beet from this area goes to one place and to one place only. The establishment is a very big one, they have a big staff and efficient arrangements. We make a special arrangement with the Carlow factory to deal in a special way with the soil attaching to beet from Cooley and Dundalk areas.
Since when?
Mr. HOGAN
Since they grew beet first.
That is only a few years ago.
Mr. HOGAN
Two years ago.
How can the Minister explain the action of the Department in allowing potatoes to be railed from Bush and Bellurgan to Dublin for reexport to England?
Mr. HOGAN
I should want specific notice of that question, because if it is done officially, special arrangements are made. Deputy Aiken asked why we should not allow the potatoes to be sold to public institutions. I do not think that would satisfy anybody. The amount of potatoes that institutions would be likely to consume would be very small. A fair number of institutions grow their own potatoes. Compared with the danger involved, that would not be worth doing. It would not affect the position of the people concerned. It is reasonable enough to allow sugar beet to be sent to one factory, but it would be hardly worth while to allow a very small proportion of your total output of potatoes to go to ten or fifteen institutions, controlled by ten or fifteen different interests. It would be ten or fifteen times as hard to supervise the disposal of the potatoes in these institutions as to control the output of sugar beet sent to the Carlow factory. It would be of very little advantage either. While I admit that the Cooley people are suffering a distinct hardship because their land is so suitable to the crop, I do not see any way out of it.
Would the Minister be prepared to receive a deputation from the farmers resident in the Cooley area to discuss the whole question?
Mr. HOGAN
I should be prepared to receive a deputation, but I should like to have a detailed statement beforehand of the points that are to be discussed. There is no use in having a discussion for discussion's sake. It can lead to nothing.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until Friday at 10.30 a.m.