Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 May 1928

Vol. 23 No. 8

GAELTACHT COMMISSION REPORT. - MOTION BY DEPUTY FAHY—DEBATE RESUMED.

Tairisgint:
"Gurab é tuairim na Dála so nách ndéanfaidh ná rudaí atá molta ar an bpáipéar bán—ar a dtugtar Statement of Government Policy on Recommendations of the (Gaeltacht) Commission — an Ghaeltacht do shábháil, agus nách fuláir don Rialtas scéim chruinn ar a mbeadh moltaí indeunta do cheapadh láithreach agus suim áirithe airgid do leagadh amach chun na moltaí sin do chur i ngníomh gan a thuille moille."— (Proinnsias O Fathaigh).

At the adjournment last night I referred very briefly to the educational recommendations made in the White Paper. I do not know whether the Minister for Education was in the House or not. I shall refer again very briefly to them. One was that the Irish colleges should be confined to the Gaeltacht, for the reason that they will benefit the teachers that go there, and for that reason. I think, will benefit the Gaeltacht. I also referred to school meals and the necessity for applying them before the Compulsory Act is enforced; to the Training College in Galway, and to the advisability of having an Irish library in each National School, and to the objectionable proposal made by the Minister for Finance that the poor pupils in the Preparatory Schools should be clothed. I think it would finish the Preparatory Schools if there is any trace of pauperism or charity about them. It will be better to give scholarships, even if they were only for £10. The Minister for Agriculture, in dealing with this question, admitted that most of the recommendations were merely palliatives, and that it was merely palliative treatment. I also intend to refer to the palliatives mentioned by the Minister for Agriculture. The first is the Housing Grants which are not availed of in the Gaeltacht for the reason that the schemes are not suitable. There should be a reversion to the housing schemes in force under the Congested Districts Board by which grants were made for roofs and additions to ordinary houses. In the island of Bofin, which is in the Gaeltacht, the roofs that were put on by the Congested Districts Board have now gone rotten, and these people cannot avail of the housing grants at present, and I think there should be a reversion to the old system of giving grants for roofs, and for the purpose of making additions. The Claddagh is the only portion of Galway that I would call Gaillimh. A scheme should be started for re-building in the Gaeltacht, and I think this should apply to the Claddagh in Galway City. The urban council or some other body there are getting a grant, and I hear that this body has shown itself to be an anti-Irish body, and is going to use that grant, not in the Gaeltacht, but to beautify other portions of the city for the benefit of the tourist. I presume they will leave the Claddagh as it was, to be visited and seen by the tourists as a sort of native kraal. Ministers come down as well as tourists, and look at the Claddagh from a char-a-banc point of view—a very old traditional place, and that sort of thing, where the traditions of the Gael have remained. But it is a most insanitary spot, and the one place in Galway where buildings should be down. One of the things mentioned was a central depot that should be set up as soon as possible. I attributed the failure of the lace schools at Galway to want of a central depot. The manageresses at places like Carraroe, Rossmuck, Tirconaill and Kerry, find it difficult to travel to get sales for stuff, and at the same time to run small establishments.

I think that when a central depôt is started in Dublin with a manager to look after supplies and sales that these lace and knitting schools will become a paying proposition. There is another point and it is with regard to reafforestation. The Minister for Agriculture tries to have it both ways. He is reported to have said that reafforestation is no good in the Gaeltacht because the land is not suitable, but when he brings in his Forestry Bill he says that he wants land of very little agricultural value for it. The land in the Gaeltacht is suitable for reafforestation and for nothing else. Estates owned by Mr. Benidge. Screen; Mr. Bruce Ismay, and one by Ranji, as well as lands in various other places in the West are well planted. Therefore, I do not see why a scheme of afforestation could not be started in Connemara. It is really the only thing feasible in these places. Carrigeen and kelp are not dealt with very much in this White Paper. Some years ago I got into touch with some firms in New York. The highest price we got for carrigeen was £75 a ton. All it brings in the Gaeltacht is a shilling a stone. It has to undergo certain processes before you get such a big price as £75 a ton. Thirty pounds or forty pounds a ton is about the usual price. I think some steps should be taken by the Government to see that these processes are carried out. Steps should also be taken to see if it would be possible to set up a kelp factory.

There is nothing said about a mineralogical survey. We know that there is limestone in the Gaeltacht. We know that there are lead quarries, marble, granite and limestone quarries in Connemara. We are not induced to believe from this Report that anything is going to be done in the direction of developing these quarries. One thing that is mentioned in connection with migration in this Report is the peat-cutting industry. There is a very extensive area of turf in South Connemara, but it is impossible to get at it except by boat. The piers along the south coast have fallen down. I asked the Minister for Fisheries some time ago if he would consider the advisability of rebuilding some of these piers, especially the one at Knock. If that pier were rebuilt 50 boatmen would get employment, while hundreds of people would be employed in the turf cutting. These of course are what the Minister for Agriculture would call palliatives for the Gaeltacht.

The two most important items in the Gaeltacht Report are shelved completely in the White Paper. One is migration, and the second fisheries. There was a debate here some time ago on the motion to amalgamate the Land Commission with the Department of Fisheries and on putting the Gaeltacht in charge of the Department of Fisheries. I objected to that at the time. I was told by the Minister for Local Government that I was merely putting a red herring on the trail, and that I was not giving any reasons why the Department of Fisheries should not be put in charge of the Gaeltacht. We all know that the Department of Fisheries is the most inefficient Department in this Government.

The Deputy can say all that he wants to say with reference to the Department of Fisheries when the Estimate for that Department comes up, but I think he ought now to deal with the motion before the Dáil.

Paragraphs 64, 65, 66 and 67 in the White Paper refer to the Department of Fisheries and the development of the fishing industry. Three of these paragraphs were referred back for the report of the Technical Commission. From what I saw in the report of the Technical Commission it appears to me that those who produced it were not aware of the conditions in the Gaeltacht. Paragraph 67, which in my opinion was the important one and which dealt with the giving of boats to the fishermen, was completely shelved. I object to the Department of Fisheries being put in charge of the Gaeltacht, not alone for their inefficiency, but because I do not think it is possible for them to co-ordinate all the services and work out the recommendations made in the Report of the Commission. Leaving that out for the moment, I wish to refer to the question of the fisheries. It is not so much what the Department of Fisheries did not do as what they actually did that I have to complain of. Quite recently there was a fishing fleet with quite a number of people fishing from Quilty up to Roundstone and along the Western coast to Mayo and Galway. There was one boat in Quilty, in West Clare, and a boat fishing in Arran. The fishing in these places is now practically dead. Some time ago the boats that these fishermen had were taken up by the Department of Fisheries. The boats were brought into Galway and into Donegal and other places and left there to rot. One place in Donegal to which they were brought is known locally as the "graveyard." In Galway they took up the boats from the fishermen. No matter what the fishermen did with the boats it would have paid the Department much better to have left the boats with them. They are now selling the boats. "The Zulu" was sold for 14/-, the "St. Keelan" for 10/-, the "Mary Joseph" for 15/-, and the "Shamrock" for £13 10s. The Star of the Sea——

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but surely the matters that he is now referring to could be raised more appropriately on the Estimate for the Department of Fisheries. The motion before the House asks the Government to prepare immediately a definite scheme, and that a certain amount of money could be set aside each year. The Deputy should confine himself to that. He can deal with the other matters when the Estimate for the Department of Fisheries comes up.

I thought I would be allowed to discuss the White Paper.

I have no objection to the Deputy discussing the White Paper, but if he starts discussing the Department of Fisheries other Deputies may forget about the White Paper.

The last portion of the White Paper definitely states that this Department is to be put in charge of the Gaeltacht. I want to prove that the Ministry is not able to take charge of its own Department, and I want to give some proofs.

The kernel of this motion is that a certain sum of money should be provided each year.

The kernel of the motion is that the Government has absolutely failed to deal with the Gaeltacht problem, and I think Deputy Tubridy is quite in order and quite right in furnishing proof as to how the Government has failed to deal with the Gaeltacht problem during the last five or six years.

I am suggesting that what has been done or what has not been done by the Department of Fisheries would more appropriately arise in the Estimate for that Department.

I think it might be taken you are not suggesting that Deputy Tubridy is out of order?

I am just mentioning a few little things to prove that this Department is not in any way an ideal one. There is a marine store in Galway owned by one of the Departments of the Government, and in order to keep on to the stuff which they refused to give out to the fishermen they put creosote on the nets and materials they had in the marine store, and the result is that they are rotting, and the stuff they sent to Donegal had to be returned because it was rotten. There is a boat called the Helga. Yesterday we were told about fishing in Iceland. If a boat is found entering the three mile limit with the gears not stored under the deck, a fine of £500 is imposed, with confiscation of the gear, and the skipper is held until the fine is paid. On leaving the bay if the gear is not stored before leaving the three mile limit, a fine of £700 is imposed, and the skipper is held until the fine is paid, and the gear is confiscated. We have a boat in Galway but there is no gun on it or wireless. It never goes out at night. As a matter of fact it has no searchlight, and it is known amongst the foreign trawlers as "The Pouka." These trawlers have a system by which they wireless, and they can easily judge when "The Pouka" is coming along shore with the result that the boat is useless. It cost £9,500 last year, and the suggestion was seriously made to me by some fishermen in Arran that if it would be possible to get the crew of "The Pouka" to leave the boat and stay in the Railway Hotel, Galway, that they could take the boat and deal with the poaching trawlers.

Perhaps the Deputy would come to the motion.

Previously when we were discussing this subject I was told that we had nothing constructive to put up. Some time ago I did suggest that something should be done for the fisheries. I did not leave the matter with the word "something." I put concrete proposals before the House. Nothing has been done, and I do not think anything will be done. There is a man in Galway who owns a boat, and he would go out to fish if there were a bounty given. There is no maji-fishing now in Galway or the West. It would be very easy to induce fishermen to take part in maji-fishing in June. However, I do not think the Fisheries Department is a suitable body to deal with that. The one industry in the Gaeltacht is the one thing that has been shelved. The other is the migration question. I for one found myself in thorough agreement with the Minister for Agriculture when he said, "You must have migration." There are over 80,000 Irish-speaking people in the Gaeltacht in Galway. We cannot leave them there if we are to look at this as a national problem. If we are to keep the language alive and to spread it throughout the country, these people must be migrated, and to undo the work of Cromwell you must have a movement from the West to the East. What are we offered? A few jobs in the Civic Guards, a few positions as teachers, and things like that, and possibly a residential school for the training of nursery maids. The Minister agrees that migration is necessary to solve this problem. He does not say that would solve it. When I come to deal with migration, I find that in the old days five or six reasons were given as to why migration should not take place.

The first reason is rather old, and they are forgetting to use it—that is, that the people were so fond of the rocks and the bogs that they would not leave Connemara or Tirconaill or the South, except for America. Even if they were willing to go we find there is no land for them; that would be the second reason. The third reason is that even if there was land and they would go, they would not be able to work the land. The Minister for Agriculture made the point at a meeting in Galway that the people in the Gaeltacht were not accustomed to work the land, leaving out of consideration that these people do all the spring work and most of the autumn work when they migrate as labourers. The most insidious attack against migration was made by the Minister for Finance when he said that if the people migrated they would have to get police protection. That is a dangerous thing to suggest. I never heard of people in the Gaeltacht looking for police protection. I think that was a peculiar thing for the Minister for Finance to say. It was a sort of incitement to people in other places to stand up against this migration. The fifth reason was that it was too costly, and the Minister for Finance gave us a sixth reason when he said that they would lose their Irish. They lose their Irish in Boston and Chicago. That sort of excuse does not appeal to me or to anybody in the Gaeltacht. It is a pity the Minister for Fisheries is not here, because the reason he gives is that Irish should spread from Dublin instead of from the West.

This question of migration, which is dealt with in paragraph 61 of the Report, and is the most important recommendation, is completely shelved in the White Paper. You will never have an Irish-speaking Ireland unless you migrate some of those 80,000 who live in the Irish-speaking portion of Galway to spread the language. You might spread them along the Shannon, or it might be an ideal thing to start a colony outside Dublin. Instead of this the alternative we are given is the scheme I referred to here before—the migration of what they call the Cluas Valley.

And the Maam Valley people.

Nobody knows what they are doing in the Cluas Valley. It is a sort of secret way up in the mountains. It is a swamp led to by one road. It reminds me of Ali Baba and the Forty Robbers, and the pass-word is— mind you, this is a national question, and all parties should take part in the regeneration of the Gaeltacht—"Cumann na nGaedheal."

The Minister for Agriculture has been there, but I have not. One of the reasons given by the Minister against migration to other parts of Ireland is that it would be too costly and that it would cost £700 in each case. What will it cost in the case of each migrant in Cluas?

Mr. HOGAN

Probably nearly as much.

What return will there be? When you spend £700 and give them 25 acres nobody will go there. Experts tell me that it would cost £72 to produce an acre of potatoes, and you could only get £15 for the produce. The Minister may dispute that, as he probably knows more about agriculture than I do. At present the land there is only worth a few pence an acre, as it is unfit for anything except afforestation and turf. It cannot be worked. There are people working in the Cluas Valley and nobody knows what they are doing. I wanted to get information from one prominent member of the Government Party as to what they were going to do in regard to that, and he answered: "Do you think the Government are mad?" That is the impression all around South Connemara about Cluas Valley. Maam Valley is good for sheep, but the people who made money on sheep had plenty of mountain land. I believe that ordinary people would starve there. Some might go to Maam, but no one would go to Cluas. If you want to look at the problem from an economic point of view, and if you want to do something for the Irish language, you can carry out the recommendations in Paragraph 61, but leave out Paragraph 54. I believe unless there is migration and unless the fisheries are developed——

Mr. HOGAN

Would you deal with the point that, for the purpose of migrating these tenants to other parts, you must decide that no one in the country must have more than a £50 valuation holding, and that any land over and above that must be taken for migrants? What is your attitude on that? A lot of local congests will have to forego their claims to land.

I have never said that all the people in the Gaeltacht should be transferred. I believe that there is plenty of room for the migrants to give them 25 acres.

Mr. HOGAN

That is evading it.

You do not believe it. It is incredible to think that you have not room to migrate a colony from the Gaeltacht and give them 25 acres each in Westmeath.

Mr. HOGAN

To migrate 20,000 is the problem.

Leave a few in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. HOGAN

You leave 5,000 after you.

We must ask the Minister to leave enough people there to carry on the traditions of the Gael. There are afforestation, the fisheries, granite, marble, kelp and other industries you can develop, and you will have plenty of room for the remainder of the people to migrate. The plan of migrating them to the mountains is not going to turn out a success and it will simply be a waste of public money. There is very little land to be divided in the Gaeltacht. There is Ardagh Farm and an odd bit of island here and there. If the question is to be looked at from the national point of view, if we are to have the ideals of having this country Irish-speaking, and if we are to do something for the unfortunate people who have to live in the Gaeltacht, make up your minds that money will be required to be spent. Having done so consider the advisability of having a commission or some body that would co-ordinate all the various services, but do not hand over money and authority to a Ministry or Department that will eventually make a bigger mess of the problem than it has already done.

Yesterday evening the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, speaking to this motion, made a characteristically caustic and witty remark that we have the habit of talking in this House about the Gaeltacht as if none of us ever lived there or saw the place, as if it were inhabited by a set of peculiar people, by a different race from ours. I must say that the Minister for Finance, speaking earlier in the debate, rather gave colour to that remark. If I remember aright he said that he would hardly think it worth while to devote much attention to the Gaeltacht if it were not the sanctuary of the language and a repository of the Gaelic tradition. Like Deputy Bryan Cooper I am one of those who got as far as the fifth book of O'Growney on two occasions, but I am unfortunately ignorant of the Irish language in any real sense. If you say to me: "John is going to the fair," I will repeat: "Mary is going to the well." Unless you keep to the book I am afraid I would be unable to continue the conversation. I would not have intervened in this debate unless I had the qualifications of being a member for a Gaeltacht county, and that at one time I was a member of the Congested Districts Board. Moreover, I have lived nearly all my life among the people of the Gaeltacht, and I do not speak of them as a foreign race or a strange or peculiar people. I speak of them, not as one might speak of the ancient Irish elk, for instance, but as kindly neighbours whom I know.

There is a great deal in the resolution proposed by Deputy Fahy with which I can agree. That resolution invites us to say that the Government proposals contained in the White Paper will not save the Gaeltacht, that the Government should produce a definite scheme, and devote a specific sum of money to the problem. So far as the first part of that resolution is concerned, I think it very much depends on the meaning you attach to the phrase, "Save the Gaeltacht." I do not believe it is possible for anybody, either on the Government or Opposition Benches, to produce a complete solution, as the problem is far too tangled and difficult, but, so far as mere wording is concerned, I do not see that there is anything to which one could object in the general statement. Neither the Government's proposals nor any proposals, in my judgment, can completely solve that difficult problem which the economic condition of the Gaeltacht presents. From the other part of the resolution, in so far as it suggests that the Government has not put forward a definite scheme, I would dissent.

The third portion suggests that a specific sum should be available, and that we ought to know how it should be spent. That is an old idea of my own, which I have expressed on several occasions. I have said that I do not believe that there is any direct solution of the problem. I am afraid that I am a little bit of a sceptic so far as the common views about migration and emigration are concerned. I confess frankly that I do not believe in the possibility of a large scheme of migration, and I do not very much believe in the possibility of largely stemming the tide of emigration for two perfectly simple reasons. In the first case, because the people will not go, and in the second case, because the people will go. I do not believe, in spite of what Deputy Tubridy has said, that those who have practical experience of the Gaeltacht, have found, or will find, that any very large proportion of the people in the Gaeltacht are willing to leave the Gaeltacht for any place except America. That is a queer psychological fact which I believe to be true of the Gaeltacht. To America, on the other hand, they will go. It is not by any means, as is sometimes suggested, merely a question of unemployment. Only within the last week or two I had this matter very forcibly brought before my mind by hearing that a young boy who is assured of continuous employment, and who was living with his family, is emigrating. He has an elder brother who is running a successful motoring business. Yet nothing could stop him from going to America. The lure of that country outweighed every other consideration. By all means, let us make the Gaeltacht a more attractive place for young and old to live in, but I think we are only deluding ourselves if we suppose that anything we can do is going, permanently and finally to stop emigration.

I say that I do not believe in heroic remedies for the Gaeltacht. What moral do I draw from that? By no means a conclusion of despair, but rather one of hope. I believe that when you approach the problem of the Gaeltacht, you must not despise the day of small things. I think that there is a certain danger in the line taken by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture yesterday. I agree with nine-tenths of his speech. I agreed, as I always do, with the general tenor of his speech, but there were parts of it in which he was a little inclined to minimise what could be done by particular agencies. He was a little inclined to think that because you could not solve the entire problem in any one way, it could not be solved at all because, as he said, fisheries by themselves would only provide for a very small number of people in the Gaeltacht, and that because industries in themselves could only touch the fringe of the problem, you could not solve it. I thought that there was a certain danger in that line of argument, that other people might conclude that these things were not worth attention. I do not believe that to be true at all. In the first place, I believe that, whatever dispute there may be as to the number of people you can bring out of the Gaeltacht from their present congested holdings, and the number of people whose farms you can enlarge in the Gaeltacht, you must always have a sufficiently large number of people in the poorest parts of the Gaeltacht, to make it necessary to bring every possible agency to bear if you intend to improve their condition. By doing that, I believe you can enormously improve it.

My colleague from Tirconaill, Deputy Carney, who never addresses the House without giving it amusement and instruction, defended the people of the Gaeltacht in general, and of Tirconaill in particular, against the charge, which I hope nobody really had made, of being thriftless and lazy. I do not believe anybody who is conversant with the conditions of life in the Gaeltacht could believe either of those things. I do not think that people who are either thriftless or lazy could possibly live on the land there, and the fact that they have managed to live there is plenary proof that they are neither thriftless nor lazy. I can speak for one portion of Donegal, Glen Colmcille, which, with Gortahork, is one of the most purely Irish-speaking districts in the country. I do not always agree with statistics about the percentage of Irish speakers, but I think there is no question that the people there are purely Irish speakers. I know of no district in which you will find, taking the size of the farms, such good farming and such a smiling landscape as in that area. They have combinations of industry there. Their little farms are no better, perhaps worse, than many others of a similar kind in other districts which do not present the same happy appearance. To what, then, do I attribute the fact of their well-being? Partly to their admirable character, but also in part to the fact that they have kept alive in that district a home industry, namely, homespuns. It may mean very little money. The women, up to some time ago, could sell their webs in London. I am sorry to say that the business has become somewhat disorganised. The women have to go to other parts of the country, carrying webs on their backs, and selling at prices far below what they got some years ago. I hope, as a result of the activities of the Minister for Fisheries in that particular area, that we shall see that industry re-organised, but even as it is the amount of money brought into that district by industry has a very considerable effect. One of the matters I want to impress upon the Government is that they should not, because one of those things will not save the Gaeltacht, neglect any one of them. They should not despise any agency which will help. It is quite true that the fisheries on our coasts, compared with the fisheries in other countries, are very small beer.

It is not very many years ago when a fish buyer told me that he had paid at one little pier in Donegal, and by no means one of the most important, in one season £20,000 for herrings. You may say that £20,000 is not an enormous sum in the national economy, but when you remember that the total valuation of the whole union, the lands and houses of the whole union in which that little pier is situated, is exactly £21,000, and when you find that in one little pier that £20,000 worth of fish has passed from the fishermen into the hands of one fish buyer in one season, then you begin to ask may there not be something in the development of that industry as a contribution to this problem; is it not well worth considering? On the other three points I shall not enlarge. That matter has been raised by the Minister for Agriculture, the improvement of stock, to which he has nobly contributed; the improvement of land by afforestation, the planting of shelter belts, drainage and reclamation, in regard to which I was very glad to hear the Minister for Finance promise the aid of that money which he has under his control and which is needed on a considerable scale if that work is to be undertaken successfully.

That brings me to the last word I have to say. As the Minister has said, the kernel undoubtedly of the motion is that the Government should set aside a specific sum for the development of the Gaeltacht. The Minister for Finance has said that he considered that matter sympathetically. I know that he has considered it sympathetically, and it is quite obvious that the Minister for Finance, whatever one's quarrel with him from time to time may be, has his heart in the Gaeltacht, and is perfectly sincere when he says that the development and the preservation of the Gaeltacht is his chief political object. I accept that statement. All I ask the Government is this, to tell us a little more as to their policy. We accept generally their scheme, but I would like to know a little more of the details and exactly the machinery by which they propose to carry out their schemes for the Gaeltacht. I accept their conclusion that there is to be nothing in the nature of the old Congested Districts Board. I accept their conclusion that the matter is to be best discharged by the Ministry of Fisheries. I accept reluctantly the decision of the Minister for Finance against the provision of any specific sum for some of the work. I accept that. But that being so I ask the Government to give us more details than we have had yet, because this matter has been under consideration now for a year. As far as I am concerned I am still somewhat vague as to what is the actual machinery by which the Government proposes to carry on there. I still do not know in relation to finance whether the sums at the disposal of the Ministry of Fisheries and the Ministry of Lands and Agriculture are to be increased for the purpose of giving the Gaeltacht services that are not given elsewhere. I do not know what the conditions are. The Minister for Finance might say exactly what the scale is to be, and whether it is to be a separate department. Again, I do not know whether the Ministry is to be free to spend that money for the purposes of the Gaeltacht without Treasury control, somewhat in the same manner as the old Congested Districts Board. I make these observations in no spirit of hostility to the Minister and certainly in no spirit of hostility towards the Gaeltacht. There has been no spirit of hostility towards the Gaeltacht from any side of the House. I do make these observations in asking that before this debate concludes we may have some more definite and detailed statement of the manner in which the Government's proposals relating to the Gaeltacht are to be carried out.

As one of the signatories to the recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission, I do not care to let this debate pass without endeavouring to put briefly, and, I am sure the Dáil will be glad to hear, very briefly, what my conception is of the action of the Government towards the recommendations that were put before them. The Minister for Agriculture is invariably very clear when he adumbrates policy. He told us last night the economic policy in the Gaeltacht— the Government's economic policy in the Gaeltacht. It practically amounts to eternal agriculture. A précis of his policy might be put something like this: better agricultural produce, increased agricultural produce and delayed industrial activity. That is the policy that the Minister for Agriculture evidently intends to follow. That is the policy he proposes and intends to carry out in the Gaeltacht, and it is just as well perhaps that we should see what was the effect of that consistent agricultural policy carried out in the Gaeltacht before the Ministry of Agriculture took over control of that particular department. It is just as well that we should see during his control and previous to his control what has been effected by that policy. I should like to be fair to the Minister, and if I am misunderstanding him or misquoting him I would be glad to be corrected. He said last night, in reply to Deputy Fahy: "There was a suggestion that industries should be started in his neighbourhood; that was an entirely different matter. It was an attempt to deal with it as a commercial proposition. He did agree that it was an attempt that would possibly succeed, but if they did all these things, how much better off would a man be in ten years?" Later on he asked, "What were the traditional industries of the Gaeltacht which Deputy Fahy said they must get back to? Was it not a fact that those industries were sheep, pigs and cattle? These were the industries that the people there understood, and of which they were capable of making some sort of success."

Evidently this is the idea that nothing should be introduced into the Gaeltacht except agriculture. That we should consistently and strenuously pursue that policy. And we find in looking at the various statistics that are available the effect of this consistent concentration on this agricultural policy during the regime of the Congested Districts Board. We find that for some thirteen years there has been a certain amount of money spent, and spent only on that particular phase of the Gaeltacht problem. We find that in 1909 there was spent £65,000; in 1910, £65,000; in 1913, £132,000 odd; in 1919, £147,000; in 1920, £197,000, and in 1921, £236,000. These are the sums that have been expended by the different governments on this concentrated agricultural policy. What has happened during that period? What has happened to the population of the Gaeltacht while that concentrated agricultural policy was in progress, and nothing else done of an industrial kind to try and relieve the position in the Gaeltacht, nothing done to endeavour to secure occupation for the natural increase in population, nothing except the immigrant ship, nothing except emigration to America?

We find that in the largest area in the Gaeltacht in Ireland (Donegal), in the period during which we have had this manifestation of agricultural policy in the Gaeltacht that the population has been going down. We find that in 1901 the population of the County Donegal was 173,722; in 1925, we find that population had dwindled to 145,296, or a decrease in the population of 28,426. That has happened practically for the same years in which we find this amount of money being extended in concentrated agricultural activities in the Gaeltacht as represented in one section by Tirconaill.

In the County Kerry, another large Gaeltacht, we had in 1901 155,859 people; in 1925, 131,284, a decrease of 24,575. I am sure the Minister will be interested to know what happened in Galway. He told us about shifting people from Lettermullen to the Maam Valley. Deputy Tubridy told us about some other valley that I do not now recollect.

Cluas Valley.

Mr. HOGAN

In 1901 there were 187,645 people; in 1911 there were 177,055, and in 1925 there were 156,770, a decrease between 1901 and 1925 of 30,875. Lest there should be any misunderstanding that I do not consider Clare a Gaeltacht—I do—I will tell you what happened there. In 1901 there were 89,204 people; in 1911 there were 81,785, and in 1925 there were 71,330, a decrease of 10,455 between 1901 and 1925—a very eloquent commentary on the value of the agricultural policy that has been pursued by the C.D. Board, which the Minister for Lands and Agriculture evidently intends to continue according to his statement last night. He told us that this thing has been going on, that the recommendations were being carried out. He told us there were pedigree Galloways in Connemara, but he did not tell us that the result of his policy was also to put genuine Gaels in Boston and New York. He told us there were pedigree pigs in Connemara, but he did not tell us that the flower of the Gaeltacht were fleeing because of the policy which he adumbrates, and which he intends to continue after failure has been exemplified by those who preceded him. He told us we were far removed from the centre of power; he told us we were far removed from what would make industries effective, such as the coal of England. I wonder did the Minister remember that the tax-payer is paying five millions odd for the Shannon scheme?

Not at all. It is borrowed money for the Shannon scheme.

Mr. HOGAN

You do not propose to pay it, then?

We have not adopted that policy yet.

Mr. HOGAN

We will probably have a talk about that on the Minister's Vote.

It is not on the Minister's Vote, either.

Mr. HOGAN

Well, on the Vote for the Minister's Department.

Nor is it on that.

Mr. HOGAN

The Minister is a capable hand at making debating society points, but the Dáil is not a debating society, and he ought to conduct his methods of interruption and speech in accordance with the rules of a deliberative assembly, and not in accordance with the rules of a debating society.

Hear, hear! These are hard facts.

Mr. HOGAN

Whether we are spending five ha'pence or five millions we were told here that we were going to get cheap power because of the harnessing of the River Shannon.

That is quite right.

We will now be told that a different Department deals with that.

Mr. HOGAN

I am glad the Minister thinks so. The Minister for Agriculture evidently forgot it, though, and I hope the Minister for Industry and Commerce will remind him, and when it comes to the consideration of industries for the Gaeltacht it would not be so hard to run an overhead wire to Maam Valley, to Lettermullen, or to Donegal.

It is only to economic districts that that ought to be done as a business proposition.

Is the Minister in order in keeping up his interruptions?

Mr. HOGAN

The Minister is always in order. Well, passing from the economic policy, or the want of an economic policy, an attempt has been made by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture to tell us that we are not to indulge in any form of industrial activity—that we are to do nothing beyond agriculture and that there is nothing to be got but the emigrant ship for the sons and daughters of those in the Gaeltacht. Coming to the administration side, which was what I mainly had in mind when I got up, I find the intentions of the Government, according to statements made here on the Front Benches with reference to a measure that passed through the Dáil a little while ago, and especially according to the White Paper are:—

...the Government have decided to entrust the administration of State schemes in the Congested Districts, which correspond generally with the necessitous portions of the Gaeltacht, to one Parliamentary head, to whose care will be allotted the relevant aspects of the various State improvement schemes which have a special importance for these areas, viz.: Land settlement and migration, drainage, fisheries, rural industries, etc., and whose duty it will be, furthermore, to keep in constant touch with all Departments of State to ensure that the requirements of these districts will be specially provided for in the designing and carrying out of other schemes applicable to the State as a whole.

I find at the tail-end of the statement of Government policy:—

The Land Commission has been transferred to the Minister for Fisheries, who will act as the coordinating authority for Gaeltacht services in the future. The Minister will make the necessary arrangements to keep in close touch with those other aspects of Governmental activity....

That means that the Minister for Fisheries is to see that all the recommendations in this White Paper, as far as one can gather, are to be carried out by the Minister for Fisheries. He is to see that we are to have Irish-speaking Civic Guards in the Gaeltacht. He is to see that Irish-speaking post office officials are to be appointed in the Gaeltacht, and he is to see that pension officers who are capable of interrogating old age pensioners are appointed in the Gaeltacht. He is also to see that the many and various services in which the Government indulges in every part of the country are carried on by people with a sufficient knowledge of the language to carry them on through the medium of Irish. I wonder will it happen, and does the Government itself really think that it is going to happen? Does it really suggest that the Minister for Fisheries, overburdened as he is with the many activities of this Department at present, with the varied and many activities in which it indulges, is going to have time to look after the Post Office, the Civic Guards, the schools, the Excise, Old Age Pensions Section, the offices of the Local Government, etc.? Is it suggested that this Department is going to see that all of these people are to be Irish speakers, and that they are going to carry out even the poor recommendations of the Government themselves?

Including the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. HOGAN

This is not the Gaeltacht, unfortunately. It is the Galltacht. I would like to point out that it is a physical impossibility for that Department to put it into effect. I will just give a few instances of my experience as a member of the Gaeltacht Commission. I remember dropping into a wayside Civic Guard station. There were two of us. There was an old lady scrubbing the hall, and as she was rather in my way I said, "Bail a Dhia ort,""Cad atá tú ag déanamh annso?" or something like that. Oh, said she, "Beannacht leat." I am not quite sure yet whether it was a polite invitation to me to get out, whether she was handing me my hat and coat, or whether she was actually speaking the couple of words of Irish she knew. And this was in the Gaeltacht. I went inside and I said a few words of Irish to a constable. He looked me up and down. He did not know Irish. I am not saying this now as a joke against the Civic Guard. There are Irish speakers in the Civic Guard and I do not intend to make any point against them, but I am endeavouring to point out what will happen if there is not more close contact with whoever is put in charge of this mission to the Gaeltacht, because it is a mission. The constable looked at me in surprise. I asked him something else in Irish and he said to me, "What do you want?" He emphasised "want." I said, "I want an Irish-speaking Civic Guard." He said, "You had better go in to the sergeant." I went in to the sergeant, and he was discoursing a beefsteak inside. I spoke to him in Irish. He said, "What do you want?"

A DEPUTY

Poteen.

Mr. HOGAN

No, I did not want poteen. But this was in the Gaeltacht. I said, "If I continued speaking Irish to you, what would you do?" He said, "I would eject you from the room." That is the position in the Gaeltacht. If a man had a grievance, if he were assaulted, and if he made a request for protection in Irish to the Civic Guards, he would be put out of the room. That is not a fabrication. It is an incident that actually happened.

I put it to those of the Ministry who are anxious to see that Irish should be put in its proper place in this State— and there are some in the Ministry who I believe are anxious that Irish should get a proper show in the administration of this State—will the Minister for Fisheries be able to see that things like that do not happen? Will the Minister be able to see that an English-speaking pensions officer does not visit Tirconaill? An old lady in one of the districts we visited told us that an officer cross-questioned her about her Irish, about her age and about her position, in English, and that, although she could catch a word here and there, she was not able to follow him. Will the Minister be able to tell us that these things will not occur? It is ridiculous, it is absurd, it is toying with the problem. The suggestion that we put forward, that a special Department be set up, with a watching brief, so to speak, to see that all these Departments carried out the recommendations of the Government, carried out our recommendations, is the one way in which the Government can concentrate upon the Gaeltacht, and in seeing that the Departments of State, instead of becoming denationalising centres in the Gaeltacht, will become nationalising centres. The Government do not seem anxious to do that. They seem anxious to continue their economic policy, the slipshod policy that at present exists. If they do they may succeed in driving thousands more from the Gaeltacht. Thousands are leaving at present.

The other day a train was one-and-a-half hours late at Ennis, because of the stops it had to make to pick up boys and girls who were leaving the country between the place where it started in Galway and Ennis. Is the policy that is driving these people away to be continued or are the Government going to force people into the Gaeltacht who are Irish-speaking, and to see that the public administration is carried on in the spirit and the language of the people in the Gaeltacht? The policy of the Government is absurd. It is not an attempt to solve the problem, and the Government know that there is no sincerity behind it.

I rise to support the motion in the name of Deputy Fahy. It is about my eight attempt to get a hearing, and so many have spoken on the question that I feel that it would be very hard to make one's self interesting at this stage. Anyhow, there are a few things that I would like to make some remarks about. I understand that the Gaeltacht Commission which was set up over three years ago to inquire into the condition of affairs in the West of Ireland and the other Gaelic-speaking districts was established specially to look after the wants of the people in those districts and to try and stem emigration, from which the nation has been suffering for such a long period. Also to encourage and foster the native language as much as possible and to try and restore it to its former position in the nation. I feel that the worst possible set-back that the Gaelic language could receive or did receive in our time it received yesterday in this House. The Minister for Finance made what I would call a very plausible speech in connection with the Gaeltacht motion which is before the House, but, unfortunately, on the same day, he had to vote on an issue which meant the filling of a position in this House which we hold should be filled by a Gaelic speaker. He had a choice, if he wished to take it, but he did not do so. He did not take the steps necessary to secure that we could have a Gaelic speaker in the Chair as Leas-Cheann Comhairle. That, I hold, is a terrible precedent to have set in this country—the twenty-six counties. I think I might add Ireland. I think it is the most serious set-back that the Language movement has got in our time, or that it is likely to get. I do not see what heavier stroke it could get.

Some time ago, I understand from the public Press, the Minister for Defence in the United States was inclined to boast that he had secured concessions for Irish emigrants, that he had secured the means by which the quota would be raised, so as to favour emigration from Ireland. That under the conditions that were existing might be all right, but I would very much rather that he would pay attention to the establishment of ways and means of securing that those people would be kept at home.

We, of the Fianna Fáil Party, hold that the present Ministry have had a good many years to experiment in that direction, and that it is time that they should either have found means towards that end or clear out. We hold that they have not found the means. Three of the Ministers have spoken and none of them has given us any indication that they have anything at the back of their minds that will deliver us from the trouble from which we are suffering. The President, according to the public Press, suggested that those emigrants were wealthy enough to take a trip or tour to the United States to see their friends. That kind of thing, of course, is all very well for himself and his Party, but the Gaeltacht, that has suffered for years, is still suffering, and I am afraid it will continue to suffer unless the advice of the Fianna Fáil Party is taken. It is all very well for the opposite party to have advertisements of that kind, but the nation suffers in the meantime.

Some time ago the Minister for Agriculture stood up here and, after giving what I considered some very sensible advice on industries, he uttered a sentence which I think was not creditable to him, and I will give some of the reasons why I think it was not creditable. He said he never listened to so many heresies in such a short time. I would ask him is it heresy to take a man from a 210 acre farm in Kerry and give him in Kildare 247 acres of the best land and in addition give him 310 acres of a grazing farm? That would be 550 acres altogether. I think there is some room there for criticising the heresies that he applied to us. Also I would like to know is this a heresy, or what does it mean? It was admitted yesterday, in answer to a question put by Deputy Boland, that the Ministry had charge of a farm for which they paid a man for the past three or four years £400 a year and gave him back the farm every year for £100. There we hold is a waste of £300 yearly on one farm of land. What kind of heresy is that? I do not think it is a sensible business anyway. There is an old saying about pulling a man's leg. A good deal has been said here about the Maam Valley; a good deal more could be said. I would say that the man who would walk across some of the land in the Maam Valley and pull his legs after him would be very fortunate. In parts of the Maam Valley, if he traversed it, he would be very fortunate if he did not pull the mountain down on him. In some places the valley is only a mile wide and, on each side, there are mountains 2,000 feet high. Parts of it are nothing but hills with swamps in the middle. Thousands of acres of the land are valued at less than 4d. an acre. I forget at what price the best of it is valued, but it is only a few shillings anyway, and this is one of the big schemes we have heard a lot about. I heard one Deputy boasting the other day that the Government was doing a lot and instanced the Maam Valley.

Notwithstanding all that has been said for the last couple of days about unemployment and industries, perhaps a little more could be said. Down in the West we have places like Achill, where there are about 6,000 inhabitants, and about 2,000 of them are migratory labourers. We have not had any expenditure of money there, either from the recent free grant or any other grant. We had it mentioned here yesterday that about £20,000 was expended in the Dublin district. The Dublin district largely manufactures the goods that we buy from them in the West. We provide them with employment, but we do not get a third of what the city of Dublin gets in the way of grants. Besides, the so-called dole is administered up here, but we know very little about it in the Western districts, and especially in the Gaeltacht. I know that there are a lot of people who do not agree with paying people for being idle. There are a lot of industries that could be carried on, and carried on profitably, and if the money that is spent on these doles were added to other moneys much useful work could be found. It would be a more sensible way of relieving unemployment and of assisting the Gaeltacht and keeping the people at home, instead of their being forced to migrate to England or to go to America. It is all very well to talk about the dole being a necessary asset, but I may say that there are a lot of valuable works that could be opened up, both here and in the West, if money were spent in giving employment instead of being paid to able-bodied men for being idle, because that is really what it amounts to.

I would also say that a mineral survey should be made at least throughout the Gaeltacht. I know that there are a lot of mineral deposits along the Western coast that could easily be worked. For instance, there is a slate quarry at Killery Bay, close to one of the best harbours in the West, which could be very profitably worked in connection with the present housing problem. It would not be a foolish thing, I hold, to develop such a quarry. I understand that that vein of slate runs from Killery Harbour through Aughagower to Westport, and its development would be useful and necessary for the nation.

I think it is in directions of that kind that we have to look for development. That they eventually would be of profit to the nation is beyond all doubt. Down in Achill there are copper-mines and other mines. The copper mines had been worked previously. They are on the seashore, and, I believe, could be profitably worked again for the reason that there will be no transport difficulties. So far as afforestation is concerned, we have in Mayo about 30 square miles of mountain land which, I hold, could be very easily secured by the Government.

Remember this land is 30 miles square, which runs into hundreds of thousands of acres. A similar area practically is available in Galway, and up to the present nothing whatever has been done for the development of afforestation in Mayo, and very little has been done in Galway, if anything at all. I trust when the Minister is looking into the matter of afforestation development in the future, he will not neglect those districts which afford such room for work in that respect.

So far as fisheries are concerned, a good deal has been said, and I believe a good deal more could be said upon that matter. In the first place, if we are to have any aspiration for the development of fisheries, boat building, which is a very important industry, should be encouraged. After all, if we want fish it is our business to develop that industry, and there is room for the development of it. The proof of that is that we are importing £292,000 worth of fish annually. It ought to afford great encouragement to the development of this industry that we have such a market as that. We find in the present undeveloped market we have an outlet for about £300,000 on fish. I hold there is nothing very discouraging in that, and it should be gone on with at the earliest possible moment.

The markets are undeveloped and, of course, it is a very difficult thing to develop markets if you cannot secure supplies. Until we have developed our fish markets, we cannot hope to secure contracts from the various large institutions throughout the country that would be the key to the situation. You cannot hope to secure contracts from these institutions without insuring that you have the best possible sources of supply, and in my opinion that means that in tackling this fishery problem you must secure that you have deep-sea fishing to begin with. Then, when the in-shore fishing cannot be carried on in rough weather, this fishing could be almost constantly carried on, thereby securing a more regular supply of fish, or at least, as constant as that carried out by the foreigners who send in their fish and capture our markets.

I notice by the Estimates that there is provided this year £3,000 less than was provided for the development of the fishing industry of last year. The sum provided has been falling for some years past. It is lower this year than it has been for the past five or six years, anyway. That is not very encouraging. For the years 1925-26 and 1926-27 the two years for which the figures of expenditure are available. I find that there is an average of £26,500 unexpended by the Ministry of Fisheries. We had to complain quite recently that the supply of money for this Department was meagre.

The Deputy is very clearly discussing the Estimates for the Ministry of Fisheries. I have given him very fair scope, but he is going right into the Estimates now. The Estimates for the Ministry of Fisheries can be discussed later on.

The resolution is definitely dealing with neglect by the Government, and Deputy Kilroy is simply emphasising the absolute neglect of the Government to take the effective steps in their hands to deal with the problem.

The resolution expresses dissatisfaction with the White Paper.

The resolution does not express dissastisfaction with what the Government has done. I shall translate it into English for the benefit of Deputies in order to call attention to what we are discussing. The resolution says that the statement of Government policy embodied in the White Paper will not save the Gaeltacht, and it invites the Government to prepare a definite scheme embodying practical recommendations and to allocate a specified sum of money for putting into operation without further delay such recommendations. In other words, it puts up this question of a specified sum of money and how it should be spent. I have listened to Deputy Kilroy with what I consider to be great patience. What he is doing now is going into the Estimate for the Department of Fisheries, which will arise later on, and which is not relevant to this motion. The motion does not raise the question of the neglect by the Government of the Gaeltacht.

PROINNSIAS O hAODHAGAIN

"Na rudaí atá molta ar an bPáipéar Bán." Sin iad na rudaí atá déanta ag an Rialtas ar feadh na sé mblian seo thart.

Ní hiad. "Na rudaí atá molta ar an bPáipéar Bán."

The recommendations in the White Paper are the schemes suggested, and include some things which have been done. What is raised here is the question of how you are going to deal with the particular problem, not the question of how the Government has dealt with the problem—if we assume that the Gaeltacht Commission was the beginning of something.

With all due respect to the Chair, I hold that I am showing the unsatisfactory way in which the business is being dealt with and the reasons why there ought to be a change, and if I mention the Estimates, I hold I am quite within my rights—I mean that is my opinion. Of course, if you, sir, rule it out of order, it is another matter.

My position is that the Chair has heard the Deputy so seldom—in fact it is the first time I personally ever heard him— that I am prepared for myself to give him every liberty I possibly can give him, but when he handles the Estimates literally and physically and reads them out, he is going too far.

This motion is not going to finish to-night. We have given the best part of an hour and a half to it now, and according to my recollection more time has been absorbed by Deputies opposite than by Deputies in other parts of the House. What I want to know now is, are we going to arrive at some accommodation with reference to this? We have given five and a quarter hours yesterday to it, and an hour and a quarter today. At least two Ministers wish to address the Dáil on the subject before it finishes. The Bill which we postponed until this motion would be considered is due for consideration early next week. I am prepared to give one hour and a half to it to-morrow, but it must be finished to-morrow, as I can give no more time. If it goes beyond to-morrow it must take its place on the Paper for Private Deputies' time. It is not a very creditable performance having regard to the length of time taken up with it.

Ní aontuighim leis sin.

Could we have an idea of how many Deputies desire to speak from the opposite side?

Triúr no mar sin. How long is it expected the two Ministers will take?

If they took half an hour each, we would still, I think, have devoted less time to the motion from this side than from the other. I am prepared to admit that Deputies opposite have not much experience of the Dáil, but those who have will admit that the time given has been very generous. We have given five and a quarter hours, one hour and a quarter, and another hour and a half, which makes eight and a half. Considering quite a number of the other items which we are about to discuss, such as the Ministry of Fisheries and Land Commission Bill, that is a considerable amount of time for it.

We will be satisfied if we get half the time you suggest for to-morrow.

There are other parties in the House and half the time is unreasonable.

Considering that the motion came from our side, and that it is in respect of one of the big national problems, I think you ought to be satisfied with our offer.

We have, fortunately or unfortunately, just a little more responsibility than the Deputy for it.

It is because we feel you have not acted up to it, that we are talking.

The Deputy wants to muzzle us when we want to explain that we have.

We have taken nearly seven hours in this matter, and of these the supporters of the motion have taken about two-thirds and those against the motion about one-third. The Labour Party had two speakers, who occupied forty-three minutes. I need say no more, that is the position of the debate.

Do any other members of the Labour Party wish to speak on this motion?

Mr. O'CONNELL

No.

I take it that Deputy Kilroy has concluded his speech?

I am not quite sure. How many other Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party wish to speak? I shall ask the two Ministers to endeavour to curtail their remarks to half the time to-morrow and Deputies opposite can divide the remainder.

Deputy Coburn has a motion in connection with black scab which he wants to raise on the adjournment.

It is as important as the Gaeltacht.

Before we come to that, I wish to know if the Gaeltacht motion is to be taken as the first motion to-morrow.

It will be put down for half-past twelve to-morrow. It will mean that Private Members' time must be taken for the purpose of this particular private motion.

Debate adjourned accordingly.
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