Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 11 May 1928

Vol. 23 No. 12

VOTE 63—WIRELESS BROADCASTING (RESUMED).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a sum not exceeding £18,355 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and other expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting.

Mr. BRISCOE

On this particular Estimate, the financial position can hardly be regarded as satisfactory in the real sense of the word, for the simple reason that this Department depends absolutely on the receipts from the revenue derived in the first instance from licences—those who pay licences to enable them to listen-in— and, on the other hand, from the revenue derived in the shape of the tariff of 33? per cent. on the importation of parts. The favourable position of this particular Department, as it appears in the Estimate, depends therefore absolutely and entirely on the number of users and the amount of supplies or parts imported. It could very easily turn out that in any particular year, even this year that we are estimating for, if there was a cessation of importation of component parts or sets, or if a number of people refused to renew licences, that Department would be a losing Department and its maintenance would fall immediately on the shoulders of the taxpayer.

I have no quarrel at all with the idea of licensing; it is quite desirable that every user should be licensed; and there is no objection as far as I am personally concerned to the collection of the tariff, because it is certainly a luxury and it would be unfair to tax the community generally for the luxury of a section. We must realise, however, that the people who pay for the upkeep of this Department, and on whom the upkeep of it depends, should receive consideration, detailed consideration, when they have complaints to make, or when there is any demand for a change in programmes and so forth. They pay the licence of 10/- and the balance of the money comes out of what is derived from the collection by the Customs. The position, therefore, is that they pay the piper but they are not in a position to call the tune.

The Dublin station, it is agreed, radiates its programme over an area of forty miles from the city and the Cork station over a radious of fifteen miles. Outside of those areas it is very hard for people to get any proper reception. The whole population within those areas is round about 750,000 people.

If you take the 750,000 people in these areas you will find that, in comparison with any other country, small or large, the percentage of people listening-in is very small. There must be some reason for that. In the first instance, I contend that one reason for it is that the programme itself is not made interesting enough. There is a keen demand for more news, ordinary news, market reports, weather reports, and so on. There is also a demand for all kinds of daily reports of events that take place within our own Twenty-six Counties. Recently, Belfast broadcasted the doings of their Show. We never broadcasted either the Spring Show or the Horse Show. These are important events, and they were never broadcasted. Other Deputies have pointed out that the programme requires a little change, and it has also been pointed out that outside of the areas that I have spoken of, it is very hard to get reception.

I would like to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary some hopeful promise that in the immediate future steps will be taken to have either a change made so that people can listen-in throughout the whole of the Twenty-six Counties, or that there is going to be some change in the programmes themselves. I would also like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if he can state if he has any idea as to how much of the fee collected for the licence is retained by the Postal Department itself, and how much is actually credited to the Broadcasting Department. I would also like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what are the sources of foreign news. We sometimes have programmes relayed here. For that reason I would like to know what are the sources of foreign news. I have received certain commuunications in which I have been asked to ask if there are many women employed in this Department who have husbands living, in good positions, and well able to support them. I again ask if the Parliamentary Secretary is in a position to tell us when he hopes to have the service so arranged that there will be a better programme at the disposal of all the citizens of the Saorstát who desire to listen-in.

Mr. SHAW

I would like to say a few words of congratulation to the Parliamentary Secretary and to the Broadcasting Committee for the great improvement that has been made in the broadcasting programmes during the past twelve months. I would like to join with the other Deputies in suggesting that there ought to be more Continental and English programmes relayed, because there are magnificent operas in London, Germany, France and Italy which are certainly very interesting on occasions. I would mention one particular place—that is, Koningsberg, a powerful German station—where the most magnificent music is broadcasted. It is the most magnificent programme that I personally have ever heard. I wish also to say that we would like to hear more of the Gárda Síochána and Army bands, because while I praise Koningsberg and other stations, I do not think the Army Band can be excelled by any band in the world. On several occasions when I was in England I remember certainly that a large number of people there waited specially to listen-in to the music supplied by our Army Band.

I am going now to sound a note, not quite as congratulatory a note, and that is that I do not know why the Dublin Broadcasting Station is the only broadcasting station in Europe that practically excludes sporting events. You can hear from every country in the world racing results. In Italy, France and England racing results are broadcasted, but it cannot be told here what won at Punchestown or at Fairyhouse. I would not blame the Parliamentary Secretary for that, because I fear he inherited that spirit.

Mr. O'KELLY

Do you want him to broadcast a tip now and then?

Mr. SHAW

Yes, if he can give a good one. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to include those important events that are held in Ireland in the broadcasting programme. I certainly cannot understand why up to this they have not been included. I do not want to say that I would confine it entirely to racing, because I would like to hear football, tennis, golf, and other sports results.

Mr. FAHY

Lectures?

Mr. SHAW

I know that a good many people would. At the present time English football results are broadcasted to the Free State. I would make this appeal here now to the Parliamentary Secretary to include these things in the broadcasting programme for the future. These are matters very interesting to a large number of people.

Mr. MOORE

I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether he has any information as to the number of listeners-in who are following the lectures on languages, such as the lectures on French, Spanish, German, and so on. I do not know that there is a way of finding it out, but it would be interesting to know, since these are obviously very expensive services, and it would be well to know if they are being availed of to any considerable extent. It appears to me that the money devoted to these would be better spent if it were devoted to other educational purposes.

We all know that in regard to political questions and important State questions everybody would be glad to see a better and bigger interest taken in them. It seems to me that the Dublin station is devoting rather less attention to these questions than to others. The number of lectures of an educational kind given are very few. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that it would be worth his while considering whether he could not substitute for the lectures at present given on certain languages, lectures on subjects of more general public interest. I am afraid the lectures given on languages are not being availed of to any extent at all.

Professor THRIFT

There are just a few remarks I wish to make with reference to certain things which were said in the debate last night. It may be of interest to Deputy Morrissey and others to know that local situations affect, in a way which I think is not properly understood, local reception. For example, I could tell the Deputy that I have heard the Dublin station very well on a three-value set at a place distant 100 miles from Dublin. That is probably further than the place where he tried to listen and failed. It is not properly understood, I think, why these local conditions do operate in that way, but probably the surrounding country or the intervening country between the sending station and the receiving set affects the matter considerably. I think that is a difficulty which could be entirely got over by increasing the power of the local station, particularly that part of the difficulty which arises from the reception being interfered with by Morse signals. There is no doubt that one of the difficulties in connection with the Dublin station is the nearness of the common wave-length used for Morse signals. If that difficulty were overcome the habit of broadcasting reception would become a much more popular thing than it is at present throughout the country. The great advantage to my mind, of broadcasting is going to lie, in the future, in this high-power station.

I would have liked if the Parliamentary Secretary had given us some more information as to how the position stands at present with reference to that high-power station. When there is such a station, then we may expect that throughout the country there will be a very great increase in the number of crystal sets at work in receiving the programme from the station, and in sets that are dependent upon a smaller number of valves than Deputy Morrissey's high-power reception set or than the three-valve set that I referred to. I think that the forecasted revenue for the coming year is disappointing, but those who were here at the time will remember that I urged last year that the number of receivers would be very seriously affected by the policy adopted. If the Parliamentary Secretary had given us more information as to how the financing of a high-power station is being affected by the existing import duty on wireless apparatus, I think it would have been a good thing. There can be no possible doubt, as some Deputies have said that the growing popularity of wireless reception is seriously interfered with by those duties. I think the Deputies who have spoken with reference to the programme appreciate that the Minister and his staff are doing their very best to improve its quality, and to provide music which would be generally acceptable to the people of the country. The matter of the Army Band, for instance, has already been up before the Committee. They recommended very strongly in favour of hearing more of the Army Band, and as Deputy Shaw has said, that suggestion was adopted by the Minister and his staff. My personal opinion is that the programme given by 2RN compares exceedingly favourably, considering the newness of the station, with many of the much older stations.

Mr. GOULDING

I happen to come from a part of the country where reception from the Dublin station comes through very clearly and easily. I do not know whether that is due to the geographical situation of the country or not, but we have no difficulty in getting Dublin. The only difficulty that we experience is in getting the Hamburg station, which possibly is on a greater wave-length than that of Dublin. I believe I must not make any appeal about taxation. but if I might make this suggestion, I think it would be a good idea to make the import duty easier on the people of the country, particularly on those who assemble their own sets. I have no objection to the tax being kept on the completed instrument, but I think those who desire to assemble their own sets should be encouraged to do so. One way of doing that would be to make the import duty easier on them. The number of wireless users that we have at present is rather small. I think that if the people got a better chance of assembling cheap sets you would have a greatly increased number of wireless users, and therefore increased revenue from wireless taxation. It would also be the means of giving people in the country, who at present have no an opportunity of doing so.

With reference to the programme, I am afraid I must differ with the views expressed by some of my fellow-Deputies who spoke last night in favour of jazz music. I think the Deputy who spoke did not mean actual jazz music. As far as I am concerned, I would be sorry to see relayed the sort of jazz stuff given out from London. It is not music at all. It is simply noise. If the people are anxious to have dance music relayed from the Dublin station, then I suggest that the place to go for it is to Germany. We get much better dance music and light music generally from the German stations than we do from Daventry. I hope that we are not going to be afflicted in the future with more of that class of music that sometimes the Daventry station sends out. I am not saying that the Daventry station does not send out good music. It does. It broadcasts splendid music, but unfortunately they have to cater in England for dancing crowds, and the result is that sometimes we are afflicted with a share of that class of stuff.

With reference to the question of having a high-power station, one great fault with the Dublin station at present is this: that occasionally, whatever the cause, the reception is spoiled by a peculiar whistle that comes through. The effect of it is that one is impelled to shut off the station immediately. I do not know the cause of it, but if it could be checked it would add considerably to the pleasure of those of us who listen-in. I think that the educational side of the programme is fairly well done, and I join with Deputy Moore in asking that more in the way of lectures on subjects in which the people of the country are interested might be provided.

Mr. S.T. O'KELLY

Wireless is not a subject that interests me very specially, but, in common with everybody else, I have quite a number of friends who take a keen interest in it. Possibly because most of my friends are people with Irish-Ireland ideas, I hear a good deal of their criticism of the programmes broadcasted from the Dublin station. I must say that generally they seem to be well pleased with the programme given by the Dublin broadcasting station, so far as it affects Irish-Ireland. As nobody else has mentioned the matter, I would like the Parliamentary Secretary, or whoever is in charge, to know that there does seem to be fair satisfaction generally with the programme broadcasted from the Dublin station so far as that particular aspect of it is concerned. I know nothing about the technicalities of broadcasting, but I have heard people in and around Dublin complain of the frequent difficulty they experience in getting the Dublin programme at certain parts of the day. That is a matter that I know nothing about, but I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary or the committee in charge have had complaints of that kind brought to their notice, and are probably looking into them.

There is a matter which was brought to my notice a month ago in reference to the breaking of a contract that had been entered into by the committee or director, or whoever is in charge, with a person who used to contribute frequently to the station. I refer to a lady, probably well-known to wireless people, and well-known generally in Irish-Ireland circles—Mrs. John Brennan. She came to me some months ago and complained that a contract made with her had been broken because of a letter, undoubtedly of a political nature, which she contributed to the Press criticising some matter; I do not know exactly what it was. I do not know whether the letter had a party bias or not, but in that letter she criticised something that had been done or said, and as a result, I think in twenty-four hours, she was dismissed from the broadcasting station, and her contract broken. The director, I understand, expressed his regret, and said these were his instructions and he had to carry them out.

If people's political opinions are to be suppressed in that fashion, and their employment taken from them merely because they have the courage to express opinions not accepted by those in authority, and for no other reason, I think that is something we ought not to stand for. I do not know exactly what the political opinions of this lady are. I have an idea her opinions are not exactly the same as mine, but I know she has for a number of years given good service to the cause which eventuated to my regret in the setting up of this Free State. She gave good service in the very early days of that movement. If she holds views which are not acceptable at headquarters, surely the expression of them ought not to mean she is to be deprived of a living in Ireland? She is a widow with at least one child. I understand that broadcasting, and the writing of occasional articles to the Press, were her only means of living. It was, I think, harsh treatment that she should be deprived, because of a letter to the Press, of her means of existence. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give consideration to the matter.

PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTER for POSTS and TELEGRAPHS (Mr. Heffernan)

Deputy Morrissey, and some other Deputies, made complaints in regard to the difficulty of reception in certain parts of the country, but other Deputies have made statements which show the difficulties in the matter of reception. I think Deputy Little last night made a complaint as to difficulties of reception in Waterford, but Deputy Goulding has said that the reception was quite good in Waterford. Reception is a difficult science. Broadcasting is more or less an infant science, and it is not in any way exact or complete. There are unknown factors which even the most advanced engineers and persons interested are unable to explain. One of these is the question of reception. We find, as I think Deputy Thrift pointed out, that sometimes you will get an excellent reception of Dublin at a considerable distance from the station, say, 100 miles, whereas much nearer you may get no reception at all. That may be due to geographical or climatic influences, but we cannot tell at the moment. That aspect of the case has received, and is constantly receiving, the attention of our engineering staff. If we think that by increasing our power we could make any change in our system of sending out broadcasting waves, we will do it.

Deputy Briscoe raised several points in connection with the whole Vote. He wanted some information with regard to the finances of wireless broadcasting. Generally the situation is that broadcasting must be a self-supporting concern, that is, the cost of the whole scheme must be paid by the receipts from the wireless duty and from the licence duty. The receipts from the two duties combined since the establishment of the broadcasting station have slightly exceeded the expenditure, the excess from the time of the establishment of the wireless broadcasting station being £8,975. I think Deputy Briscoe, and other Deputies, raised the point as to whether it is advisable to continue the import duty on wireless parts as a means of revenue for the maintenance of the broadcasting station. That is not a matter for me, but for the Minister for Finance. We are only concerned with seeing that sufficient money is secured, so that wireless broadcasting will not be a burden on the State. Opinions differ greatly on the matter. Opinions have been put forward from certain quarters that if the import duties were taken off the receipts from the wireless licences as regards the cheaper crystal sets would increase, so that the loss in the import duty would be made up. That is a matter of opinion. I think it is hardly likely that such would be the result. The greater number of wireless receiving sets are around Dublin and Cork in close proximity to the stations. They are mainly of the cheaper kind— crystal sets. Even with the import duty they are still comparatively cheap. I hardly think it likely that the use of the crystal sets is being impeded to any considerable extent by the increased cost owing to the import duty. However, as I have pointed out, it is not a matter directly for me, but for the Minister for Finance.

Professor THRIFT

Would the Parliamentary Secretary prefer a steady increase in income of £10,000 a year to £30,000 down?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

It is a matter of opinion as to whether the increase would take place or not. It is open to discussion as a matter of policy at a future date. Our present policy is to continue the import duty. Deputy Briscoe referred to the question of news. The supplying of news to the public through broadcasting is receiving a considerable amount of attention by our Department and by the Advisory Committee. There are considerable difficulties to overcome, the principal one being the expense of providing anything like an adequate news service. If it is to be run exclusively by a staff of our own Department that will involve us in considerable expense. The only other means of obtaining news is through the existing news supplying agencies. At present we have on our staff only one news collector, and it is impossible for him to keep in touch with the most up-to-date news. The question of news broadcasting is receiving consideration at the moment, and our future policy in regard to that matter may change. Deputy Briscoe asked for some information in reference to the getting of foreign news. Generally speaking, our foreign news is received from the radio stations. Our newsman takes it off the wireless of the different foreign radio stations.

Mr. BRISCOE

Is there any charge for that news?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

No.

Mr. BRISCOE

Would not the Parliamentary Secretary consider it propaganda rather than news if he gets it free?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

It is a matter of opinion. I suppose it is the best he can do, but I am not much in touch with the foreign news. I presume the official responsible endeavours to get the latest news.

Mr. GOOD

Is that news not copyright?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

No. Certain news is—newspaper news is copyright.

Mr. G. BOLAND

Propaganda is free.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Deputy Shaw and others raised the question of the programmes. I would again point out the difficulty of giving programmes agreeable to everybody. Deputy Mullins wants jazz; Deputy Goulding objects to jazz. Deputy Briscoe wants one form of programme; Deputy Thrift another. It is impossible to get general agreement on the form of programme which is most desirable. Personally I am satisfied that our programmes in the circumstances are good, and that those directly responsible ought to be congratulated on the programmes which they are broadcasting in somewhat difficult circumstances. Our main difficulty is the question of finance. We are endeavouring, with very limited finances, with a comparatively small amount spent on programmes, to compete with other institutions, such as the British Broadcasting Corporation, which has an enormous fund at its disposal. In the circumstances, I am satisfied that we are doing very well. Occasionally, of course, items creep in which are not good, but they are the exception. In addition, we are giving a stimulus to local talent.

I think it was Deputy Shaw referred to the advisability of relaying from other stations. There are certain objections to extending that too far. The first objection is the cost. We have to pay a considerable amount for these relays. In addition, if we follow that policy too far it will have the effect of shutting out local talent instead of encouraging it. By means of employing local artistes we have developed local talent considerably. We have developed several small repertory companies, which are putting on material that is fairly good and is improving from day to day. From a musical point of view, I think we have reason to congratulate ourselves that our musical director has been responsible for providing very interesting programmes. We have broadcast several interesting operatic items. We have had two or three symphony concerts which were very creditable indeed, and generally acceptable to the public. The other night we had a very interesting broadcast under the direction of our musical director of an oratorio — Haydn's "Creation"— which was generally regarded as being very well done. It is part of our policy to encourage and develop local talent, and we have done so to a considerable extent. As to Deputy Thrift's suggestion with regard to the Army Band and the Civic Guard Band, our policy is to still further increase the number of broadcasts by these bands, and arrangements have been made for them.

Deputy Shaw raised the rather debatable question of the broadcasting of sporting news. I think his reference was principally to racing results. Our policy so far has been not to broadcast racing results. It was considered undesirable to do so. Since I have become responsible for the broadcasting station this question has not come up for consideration. It is a matter which may have to be reconsidered, but it will have to be reconsidered from the point of view of public opinion. We will have to get some idea of what public opinion generally is on the matter. In regard to other sporting events, Deputy Shaw's information is not perhaps up to date. We have consistently broadcast the results of other local sporting events. We have in fact been the pioneers in the broadcasting of certain sporting events and of running commentaries on such events as football matches. For a considerable time we have been broadcasting descriptions of Gaelic matches, Rugby matches, and other interesting sporting events. I think it is generally accepted that some of these broadcasts have been commendable and that, in particular, those of Gaelic matches have been very well done indeed. Certain broadcasts of other sporting events have been fairly well done and on occasions they have been well done. In that regard I believe we were ahead of the B.B.C. We gave the lead.

As far as I could gather. Deputy Moore's reference was to the desirability of broadcasting certain matters of general public interest. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we have a policy in that regard. In that matter also we gave a lead to the B.B.C. by broadcasting matters which might be regarded as controversial to a certain extent. We broadcast a very interesting debate on "Free Trade and Protection" some time ago from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce in which Deputy Lemass took part. If broadcasting is to be made interesting that is a policy we must continue and extend, but with considerable reservations and care. There are certain forms of controversial matter which would probably be considered undesirable, but if we can get hold of interesting controversies in which leading public men take part it is part of our future policy to see that such items are given to the public. Deputy Moore also raised the question of language lessons. That is also a matter upon which opinions will differ. Considerable pressure was brought upon us to broadcast language lessons and we are gradually extending our policy in that respect. At present we broadcast lessons in Irish, French, German, and Spanish. It is impossible by any method of statistical information to say what number of persons is actually making use of these lessons. Probably they are not availed of by the majority of listeners. Deputies are aware, however, that these lessons are broadcast at a time when the majority of people are not free to listen, and the actual time taken up is not very great.

Mr. BRISCOE

If the Parliamentary Secretary thinks the language lessons are not followed with the same amount of interest as other items, I should like to correct him. They are followed with great interest by many people, but I have received many complaints to the effect that greater stress is being laid on the grammar than on the language itself— in other words, the people broadcasting the lessons seem to think the grammar comes first and the language afterwards.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

That is a matter of method. It is difficult to say what is interesting in broadcasting languages. Generally speaking, we are not taking up too much time with these lessons. Fifteen minutes daily is not a great deal of time to take up. Deputy Thrift referred to the difficulties experienced owing to the interference of Morse code signals. That is a difficulty experienced by all broadcasting stations and it is being got over. At a recent international conference held in Washington, an arrangement was made whereby the present system of Morse signalling from ships is going to be gradually changed. The present system is what is known as the common system, and an arrangement is being made by which ships will have to use a continuous wave system and, I understand, the continuous wave system will not interfere in the same way as the system of common wave does.

Some Deputies raised a question of our future policy with regard to a high-power station and our general development policy. At the moment it is not possible for me to give a general indication of our policy. We find on examination that the common opinion held up to the present that all we had to do was to establish one high-power station to cover practically the whole country, and to make broadcasting available to crystal users, is not at present quite practicable. There are difficulties in the way of obtaining a suitable wave length, and there are other difficulties. The whole question of the future development of broadcasting is receiving attention at the moment and, undoubtedly, a policy will be devised in the immediate future that will have to be brought before the Dáil, because the development of broadcasting will necessarily mean the capitalising of the expansion, and that will have to be dealt with by the Dáil.

One advantage which has accrued to us undoubtedly from the delay that has taken place in the extension is the continual advance made in the technique of broadcasting. It is quite possible that if we had started on a definite and expensive scheme some years ago, it would be obsolete now. and the State would be involved in considerable expense in bringing it up to date. With the advance made in broadcasting in recent times, there is no doubt that whatever system we adopt finally, so as to place broadcasting within the reach of practically every crystal user, will be found to be the most up-to-date that can be had.

Mr. BRISCOE

Could the Parliamentary Secretary state whether we may expect this high-power station in the immediate future and without any long delay?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I cannot state whether we will have it in the immediate future, but the Dáil may expect in the comparatively near future an announcement as to our general policy of broadcasting development.

Mr. BRISCOE

Has the Department under consideration or in contemplation the amount of money that is to be spent on the high-power station?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The Department has every possible aspect of the question under consideration. As I said already, the Deputy and the Dáil may expect sometime in the future, I cannot state the exact time, an announcement of general policy on broadcasting in this country.

Mr. LITTLE

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could give us some idea as to what is the real difficulty about getting the high-power station?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

There are several difficulties, technical and otherwise. One of the main difficulties at the moment is the wave length. The band of wave lengths available for use is practically taken up. We are controlled in this matter by the international agreement, and at the present moment, unless we pirate a wave length already in use by some other high station in Europe, we cannot start to broadcast from a high-power station on a long wave length. There have been experiments with regard to short wave lengths from high-power stations, but they are not complete, and it is doubtful if it is feasible.

Mr. GOOD

Will the Parliamentary Secretary say if the Advisory Committee has considered that important problem of the centralising of the station?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

It is being considered by my Department. It is not a matter that has been considered by the Advisory Committee, and I think it is hardly a matter for that Committee. They are mainly a Committee to deal with the programme.

Mr. GOOD

It is a very important matter from the point of view of principle, and also the expense of carrying on the station.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The Deputy may rest assured that before any definite steps are taken with regard to future policy the Dáil will have an opportunity of examining the matter in all its aspects.

I was rather glad to hear the commendation from Deputy O'Kelly as to the Irish part of our programme. We recognise that as broadcasting is a Government function in this country we have certain obligations, and that, in addition to providing amusement and entertainment, we have also the obligations of providing a programme in accordance with the national traditions of the country, and we have endeavoured as far as possible, consonant with the maintenance of general popularity of our programmes, to place the Irish-Ireland part of our programme in the forefront. I think it is generally regarded as good, and that the Irish-Ireland items are in themselves as good if not better items than the other items. I think I have now examined all the points raised. The only other thing I want to say in conclusion is that I desire to express a word of appreciation of the Advisory Committee. We have had an Advisory Committee in existence almost since the inception of broadcasting. We have seen fit in recent times to increase that Committee. The members of the Committee have been very helpful and they have been self-sacrificing in giving their time. Their advice as to the programme and other matters has been very useful to the broadcasting station, and I think it right that I should express appreciation of the voluntary work done by the members of the Committee.

Mr. BRISCOE

The Parliamentary Secretary has referred to the Advisory Committee. Will he tell us, while he is throwing bouquets to this Committee, how many meetings this Advisory Board has held, and how many of these were meetings where business was discussed?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I am not able to tell the Deputy how many meetings were held. I do not know. There have been no meetings of a formal kind, but meetings for the purpose of transacting business.

Mr. BRISCOE

It would not be correct, then, to say that it was only at the last meeting that this Advisory Board was in the position to put down a notice of motion for changes which it had recommended but were not made before?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

That is not so. The Board is always in the position to discuss any matters in connection with the programme of broadcasting in all its aspects. It has been very useful. None of its meetings was formal. They were always meetings dealing with business.

Mr. S.T. O'KELLY

Has the Parliamentary Secretary any information to give us about the lady who broadcasts under the name of John Brennan?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I believe the services of the lady who broadcasts under the name of "John Brennan" were discontinued some time ago. I am not aware of the exact reasons for the discontinuance, but if she will send in an application for re-employment I will have the matter considered.

Mr. CORRY

I would like to know why the salary of the shorthand-typist in Cork which was £67 last year is only £62 this year. What is the cause of the reduction?

Mr. G. BOLAND

The cost of living bonus.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Economy.

Mr. CORRY

Economy on 24/- a week; and £260 of an addition to another person with £1,700.

Mr. GOOD

In connection with the question that I raised of centralising the station, would the Parliamentary Secretary inform the House whether he has power to employ a European engineer to advise his Department on policy, because I feel that the longer this question remains unsettled the greater will be the difficulty of getting what he mentioned as a wave-length. The problem is difficulty now, but the longer it remains in abeyance the more will come in on the wave-lengths, and the fewer wave-lengths will be available. As the question is one of considerable importance from my point of view it might be advisable if the Parliamentary Secretary could say if his Department would consult some of the more up-to-date countries, and if there are funds at his disposal for that purpose. I would like to know if the Department has decided to adopt a policy of that kind, and whether it has the necessary funds.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

In regard to the allocation of wave-lengths there is no danger that we will lose the possibility of getting a suitable wave-length. The matter of wave-lengths is now controlled by an International Conference, and practically all countries, with the exception of Russia, are members of the International Conference. It is not possible under existing conditions for any country, except Russia, to jump in and take a wave-length which has not been already allotted. As a matter of fact I believe that practically all available are being used. The question of outside advice is one that might be considered, and it might be a method that we might have to avail of before coming to a decision as to future developments. We have very capable engineering officers in charge. One of our leading engineering officers was at the Conference held in Washington last year, and took advantage of the opportunity when there to get in touch with wireless broadcasting developments in the United States. I need not point out that in no country in the world could better information be got than in the United States, where there is not only a great number of wireless broadcasting systems and a great variety of systems, but where they are most up-to-date in every respect. I think we are not lacking any information, but, in any case, if it is thought advisable we would have no hesitation in consulting foreign experts.

Mr. GOOD

You have funds at your disposal for that purpose?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I cannot answer that. I suppose we have.

Question put and agreed to.