VOTE NO. 41.—GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE.

MINISTER for DEFENCE (Mr. Fitzgerald)

I move:—

"Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh. thar £7,278 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig Ard-Chlárathóra na mBeireataisí, etc. (7 agus 8 Vict., c. 81, a. 54; 26 Vict., c. 11, a. 9; 26 agus 27 Vict., c. 52, a. 11, agus c. 90, a. 20; 42 agus 43 Vict., c. 70; agus 43 agus 44 Vict., c. 13)."

"That a sum not xceeding £7,278 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the salaries and expenses of the office of the Registrar-General of Births, etc. (7 and 8 Vict., c. 81, s. 54; 26 Vict., c. 11, s. 9; 26 and 27 Vict., c. 52, s. 11, and c. 90, s. 20; 42 and 43 Vict., c. 70; and 43 and 44 Vict., c. 13)."

MINISTER for LOCAL GOVERNMENT and PUBLIC HEALTH (General Mulcahy)

This Estimate calls for very little comment. The detailed annual Report is published well up to date. I would like to say with regard to that Report that it contains very valuable information. To the general question of our vital statistics, in the form in which they are being presented, I am getting the Department to give consideration. In connection with the work of our county medical officers, and the advice they are able to give us with regard to vital statistics in the form in which they ought to be presented in future, we hope to have the matter improved so that these vital statistics will be presented in future in the most complete and up-to-date form.

Mr. GOOD

Can the Minister say when the results in connection with the 1926 census will be available?

General MULCAHY

The Minister for Industry and Commerce will be able to answer that.

Mr. G. BOLAND

I would like to say a few words about the registration of births owing to what came under my personal notice. I think the system that exists in Dublin of the Registrar only attending at certain hours for the registration of births could be improved. There should be some office attached to the General Register Office at which people could call during ordinary business hours, say, from 10 a.m. to 5 p,m,, for the registration of births. I was interested myself, and I had to wait on several occasions until vaccination cases had been dealt with. I think there should be some such arrangement in a big city like Dublin, so that people could drop in during the day and register births without having to wait one or two hours to do so. I suggest to the Minister that he should consider that matter.

Mr. HOLT

I should like to ask the Minister for information concerning the cost of birth certificates. Prior to the change of the unions into county homes the public got certificates at a cost of 3/7. Since then people going to America, who require certificates for emigration purposes, have to pay 5/1. I do not know of any law that enables the Department to charge that fee.

Why it is necessary to charge applicants 5/1 now as against 3/7 a couple of years ago, I do not know. This matter was before the Public Accounts Committee, and it could not get the information. We were told that it should be brought before the Dáil and that the Minister would tell us why it was necessary to charge the additional sum. The Chairman said: "If the charge is regarded as unfair or excessive, I think it is a matter that will have to be raised in the Dáil. It was discussed here last year." I would like to have some information on that point. Another thing that suggests itself in connection with this Vote is with regard to the inspectorate. I do not see any Vote charged with the work of an inspector. Formerly there was an inspector, and I do not know whether it is the intention of the Department to appoint a new inspector in place of the man who went out. If it is necessary to appoint an inspector for this work, and I expect that it is, I would suggest that the work be undertaken by the inspectors of the Local Government Department, and so save the expense of appointing a whole-time inspector.

Mr. CORRY

I wish to comment on the heading: "Fees and Expenses of Superintendent Registrars and of District Registrars of Births, Marriages and Deaths." As regards that, I notice that the usual practice of the Department is to appoint the secretaries of the local boards of health as district registrars of births, marriages and deaths. That has happened in Cork County. Where you have, as at present, a secretary to a board of health which comprises six old rural districts, who is also secretary to a board of assistance, comprising six old rural districts, and who is superintendent registrar of births, marriages and deaths for these rural districts as well, it means in practice that this position is farmed out by the man who is supposed to collect these registration fees for these rural districts, but who appoints somebody else at £100 or £150 a year to do the work. I think that that should be made a separate position altogether. No matter what brain power a man has, I do not think one man can cover all these positions, and I consider it is an outrageous thing at present to have a man drawing £600 or £700 from a position like this, and then farming it out for £100 or £150. That is what it amounts to. I think something should be done with regard to that.

Mr. O'KELLY

I note in the Estimate that the number of officials of this Department has been reduced. I presume that the work has been reduced also. A certain amount of statistical work that used to be done by this Department has been transferred elsewhere. That is probably one of the reasons for this reduction. Anyhow, that is a policy that we would like to express our approval of. There are one or two items on which I would like some information. There is an Assistant Registrar-General. No salary was put down for that office in last year's Estimate, and there is £850 for it this year. I do not know whether that is a new appointment or whether he is now the actual head of the Department, as I understand that the secretary of the Local Government Department is the official head. I take it that this Assistant Registrar-General, who was probably appointed in the last year, is now the active head of the Department. I presume that the intention is to continue that appointment, and not to fill the position of Registrar-General. I notice that there is no salary for the secretary this year, and that there was £850 in last year's Estimate. I would like to know if it is intended to fill that position. Is it merely being left temporarily vacant, or is it the intention later to fill it? If so I would like to know whether it is really thought that there is a necessity for such an appointment. I note, too. in the last Appropriation Accounts published that the sum realised showed a remarkable increase over the amount estimated for Appropriations-in-Aid. In the Appropriation Accounts, 1926-27, £8,000 was estimated for that year and £14,500, roughly, was realised. The major part, if not the whole of that amount, I take it, was for certificates mainly for those going to America. It is a sad way to have to realise revenue. Of course the Department is not responsible for that. I notice in the Estimate for this year that £10,000 is down as the amount that will possibly be realised. That again seems to be a large sum. Of course the Department is not responsible for it, but it brings before our minds in another form the awful condition of the country when it is able to realise a sum like that out of certificates for those who are leaving the country. It should bring forcibly before the minds of everybody in this assembly the necessity for doing everything that is practicable by the promotion of industrial efforts to try to reduce the revenue under that head.

General MULCAHY

I appreciate the suggestion made by Deputy Boland with regard to the possibility of providing greater facilities for birth registration in the City of Dublin, and I will have the matter examined. There may be difficulties in that matter. The dispensary medical officer is the registration officer, and whether arrangements could be made to withdraw from him the small income which he is entitled to for the registration of births, is a matter that will require some investigation. However, I will have it gone into. With regard to the staff referred to by Deputy O'Kelly, the Secretary of the Department is the Registrar-General, and the Assistant Registrar-General is an officer who was transferred to the General Register Office on the superannuation of the late Registrar-General. It is not intended to fill the position of Registrar-General, nor is it the intention to fill the position of Secretary, Generally, on the question of re-organisation and of the economic use of the staff, a considerable amount has been done in the Local Government Department as a whole, and if it is possible to do anything more, the fact that nearly all the branches of the Department have been accommodated now in the Custom House—it has not been possible yet to bring the General Register Office there, but it will—will mean a possible field for economy, at any rate in some of the smaller offices. I would not like to suggest that we would be able to do without the inspector whom Deputy Holt spoke of, because on account of the variety and the very great amount of work that has to be done in the Local Government Department I would like to have a further examination on the situation before I would state even that we had enough of an inspectorial staff. But the matter is being kept very much in mind. The increased charge in respect of certificates provided from the General Register Office is a fee of 1/6, charged for correspondence. It seemed reasonable that where facilities were being provided for the issue of these certificates to people on application through the post, they should be called upon to bear the expense of correspondence generally, and the fee which is charged at present means that there is a search fee of 1/-, a correspondence fee of 1/6, and a certified copy and stamp for 2/7. We provide facilities for people, and I think it is only reasonable that they should pay for them.

In reply to Deputy Corry, when the old rural district areas were done away with the work of the superintendent registrar was transferred to the secretary of the board of health, and it was both an economy in money and an economy in organisation. I do not think that the Deputy ought to take a particular instance in which there are, perhaps, special circumstances going back into history, and make the case on that that the present arrangement by which the duties of superintendent registrar are vested in the secretary of the county board of health is not an economical one. I believe that it is both economic and efficient.

Mr. CORRY

What I was getting at was the idea that one man would find it a physical impossibility to look after the duties of secretary of a board of health, which comprised six old rural districts, and secretary of a board of assistance, which comprised six rural districts, and combine with that the position of superintendent registrar. I think it is a physical impossibility for one man to do it. It only means that the post is being farmed out and a profit made on it. It would be better to appoint one man and let him do the job at a fair salary.

General MULCAHY

The Deputy is speaking of one particular case. If, as a general rule, it is found that that method is not efficient and economic we can deal with the matter and the system can be changed; but the policy of the Department is, instead of having a large number of officials throughout the country, each paid a small sum for each particular class of work, to associate the classes of work which can be regarded as kindred, put them into the hands of a capable officer and pay him a whole-time salary. I think there is much to commend that policy.

Mr. CORRY

Can the Minister say what salary is paid to the Superintendent Registrars in the North Cork, West Cork, and South Cork Boards of Health? If he can, we will then see if it is a fair salary.

General MULCAHY

I could not.

Mr. GOOD

I would draw the attention of the Minister to the necessity of further centralising and reducing Departments. He mentioned in the case of the Registrar-General's Department that there is a desire to economise. If he turns to the Vote he will find that work that should be done under this Department is done under another Department. I would draw his attention to the fact that the Statistics Branch, which you would expect to find under the Department of the Registrar-General, is under the Department of Industry and Commerce, and that the preparation of the Census, which the Registrar-General will have to administer when completed, has been carried out under the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. It appears to me, on the face of it, and I am sure it is not necessary to mention it here, that we have a number of Departments that ought to be centralised. There is here distinct evidence of similar work, statistical work, being spread over two Departments instead of being centralised in one. I am not sure that all these Departments should not go into the Department of Industry and Commerce. This, to my mind, is one of the cases of outstanding evidence which we have had in connection with the inquiry into Estimates of duplication of Departments which ought to be done away with. I suggest to the Ministry or to the Committee which is supposed to be considering economy, that there is here something in which economy could be effected.

General MULCAHY

In reply to Deputy Good, I would mention that to a certain extent, in so far as statistics are concerned, we are simply building up the foundations on which our statistics will be developed. The growth of the Statistical Department has been in a particular way. The head of that Department graduated, I think, from the Department of Agriculture, and, therefore, the atmosphere in regard to agricultural statistics is, no doubt, secure there. The Department are now working on the Census of Production and the general effect of the Census, but I would not like to commit myself to agreeing that the general vital statistics should be transferred as a complete responsibility, to the Statistical Department until the Department of Public Health has thoroughly reviewed the whole work of public health from the point of view of vital statistics, their collection, and their ordering. The position of the Statistical Department is not altogether lost sight of by us, and we are in the closest possible touch with it, and no doubt in time, further centralisation of statistical work will come. At present, however, I would not like to express an opinion as to whether vital statistics should be transferred to that Department or not.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 11 May 1928