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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1929

Vol. 30 No. 8

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 37—Circuit Court.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £34,635 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Liúntaisí agus Costaisí Oifigeacha Cúirte Cuarda agus Udarásanna Clárathachta Aitiúla áirithe agus chun costaisí Ath-fhéachainte Liostaí Vótálaithe agus Coisteoirí (54 & 55 Vict., c. 66, Alt. 7; Uimh. 10 de 1924, Alt. 45; Uimh. 27 de 1926, Alt. 66; agus Uimh. 15 de 1928, Alt. 9).

That a sum not exceeding £34,635 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries, Allowances and Expenses of Circuit Court Officers, and certain Local Registering Authorities and the expense of Revision of Voters and Jurors Lists (54 & 55 Vict., c. 66., Sec. 7; No. 10 of 1924, Sec. 45; No. 27 of 1926, Sec. 66; and No. 15 of 1928, Sec. 9).

We are here asking for a gross sum of £73,000, less £14,000 Appropriations-in-Aid—that is, a net sum of £59,000 to cover all the expenses of carrying on the office business of the Circuit Court and certain other expenses (such as the judges' travelling expenses) which are really connected with the judges rather than with the offices, but which, not being charged on the Central Fund, must be provided here. As regards the salary list, the first item is the remuneration of the county registrars. Under the Court Officers Act, 1926, the office of Clerk of the Crown and Peace was abolished and the new office of county registrar substituted therefor. The difference between these two officers is that the county registrar is a civil servant who must retire when he reaches a certain age (70); he is paid a fixed salary and he surrenders to the Exchequer all fees received by him, whereas the Clerk of the Crown and Peace held office for life and received, in addition to his salary, certain fees in connection mainly with electoral work. Of the former Clerks of the Crown and Peace all but six or seven voluntarily declined re-employment as county registrars, and of those who accepted such employment two have since retired and one has been dismissed, so that the great majority of the county registrars are new appointees, and their salaries are considerably lower than the salaries paid to their predecessors. After the salaries of the county registrars the next most serious item in the Estimate is the salaries of their staffs. Prior to the Court Officers Act, 1926, these staffs were the private employees of the Clerk of the Crown and Peace, who made his own bargain with them and could increase or decrease the staff, or their salaries, and engage and dismiss men at pleasure.

The State paid to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace a clerical allowance towards the cost of staff, but this allowance was not intended to and did not, in fact, cover the entire cost of staff, nor was the State interested in seeing how the clerical allowance was distributed amongst the staff. Since the Court Officers Act came into operation in September, 1926, the State has assumed direct liability for the salaries of these staffs the salaries paid by the State being the same as were formerly paid—that is, the State ascertained the actual salary formerly paid to each man, whether it came from clerical allowance or from fees, or out of the Clerk of the Crown and Peace's own pocket, and the total amount was fixed provisionally as the man's salary. Here and there were cases where it appeared the clerks were grossly underpaid, and in these cases the salaries were brought up and made a reasonable and decent living wage. The result is, of course, that the cost to the State of these clerks has risen considerably, firstly, because the clerical allowance formerly paid by the State was not sufficient to pay the salaries actually paid by the Clerk of the Crown and Peace, and, secondly, because the salaries so paid were sometimes so inadequate that we obtained the consent of the Minister for Finance for their increase. As against this increase we have benefited in most counties by the reduction in the salary of the head of the office and by the surrender to the Exchequer of the fees formerly retained by the Clerk of the Crown and Peace.

The cost to the State under the old regime of the entire office system of the County Court was about £63,000, a figure somewhat in excess of what is now being asked for, and it must be remembered, in this connection, that the present Circuit Court has taken over a considerable amount of business formerly transacted in the High Court, and that the item of £3,270 for stenography, to use a most horrible, modern word which I loathe, is an entirely new charge not incurred under the former system. The only other very large figure in the Estimate is that at A.3 on page 132. Summons-servers are paid a retaining fee of £20 a year, and there are necessarily a great many of them —about 500. In the same item Deputies will observe that court messengers are mentioned. Most court messengers are the private employees of the under-sheriff, and draw no salary from the State, but there are two classes of court messengers who do receive salaries from the State. When a court messenger happens to be also a summons-server he is paid an additional retaining fee of £20. These cases are comparatively few (20 altogether) and the arrangement is merely a continuation of one which was in operation under the old regime; and, secondly, in three counties where the under-sheriff has died or retired, and where in consequence the county registrar is now responsible for the execution of court orders, we are now employing and paying out of State funds whole-time court messengers. The counties so affected are Waterford, Wexford and Offaly. The rate of pay is £3 a week (without "bonus"). We anticipate an income of £750 in this connection. In sub-head F. we anticipate an income of £11,500 by the surrender of fees paid to County Registrars in connection with the preparation and revision of Jurors' Lists and the register of voters.

I want to call attention again to the unsatisfactory arrangements for the holding of Circuit Courts in Cork County. This matter was before the House previously, and it would probably have been the subject of investigation if the Rules of the Circuit Court had been adopted. Owing, however, to what happened the matter is still in abeyance. I would like to have the Minister's assurance that he is prepared, when a suitable opportunity arises, to remedy the state of affairs that exists there. The Circuit Court in Cork is generally held in the city, with the exception of courts occasionally held in Skibbereen, Clonakilty and Bantry. In Bandon the building in which the old County Court sat has been reconstructed and is in every way suitable for a Circuit Court. It is not merely on the question of accommodation that this matter arises but owing to the hardships which exist, because of the failure of the authorities to provide courts there. Attention has been called time and again to the hardships inflicted on jurors by having to travel to Cork City. That fact was demonstrated, I think, to the satisfaction of the judge who sat some time ago. It is certainly a hardship that men who are asked to act as jurors have to go to Cork City which in some cases is 48 miles distance, while a suitable building for a Circuit Court is available in the district. The Minister has stated previously, and he will probably again say that the Circuit Courts are responsible for a largely increased jurisdiction as compared with the old County Courts and that they can hardly be compared with them. The failure to provide suitable arrangements in this portion of the county and also in East Cork is a hardship on the people concerned. I raise the matter again in the hope that the Minister will give some indication regarding his policy in this matter, or are we to assume that the whole matter may be regarded as closed and that the wishes of the people have been entirely disregarded by the Minister responsible?

I would also draw attention to the conditions existing in Mayo. People have to travel from Ballinlough to Castlebar to attend courts which were previously held in Claremorris and Ballinrobe. I hope that the Minister will arrange to have courts held in these districts again.

Could the Minister say how far the congestion, about which we had to complain some years ago in Dublin, in the Circuit Court business has been cleared off, and whether all arrears have been dealt with?

Dealing with Deputy Good's point first. I may say that there was a considerable amount of arrears of business in Dublin, but there are two, and occasionally three, judges engaged in clearing off the business. At present there are three judges working, and though the business is not cleared off it is being considerably reduced.

Could the Minister state the number of cases in arrears?

The Deputy would have to put a question to me upon that matter, because that is really a question as to whether it would be necessary to appoint more judges. My own view is that the three judges who are now working will be able to clear off the remaining business. One of the assistant Circuit Judges, who is unattached, was, unfortunately, ill and a deputy had to be appointed. In regard to what Deputy Nally said about Mayo, and Deputy Murphy about Cork, I should point out that that is not a matter under my control. The question of deciding the places where sittings of the Circuit Court are to take place is settled by the Rule-making Committee. It is no use asking what my policy on the matter is, as my policy does not affect the matter.

Surely the Minister must agree that on a Vote for the Circuit Court a matter affecting the Circuit Court can properly be raised?

I hardly think so in this matter. What the Deputy is doing is suggesting that the Rule-making Committee should fix the places for the sittings of the Circuit Court. The Deputy and Deputy Nally stated that the Rule-making Committee had acted unwisely in not allocating more sittings to certain districts. The Rule-making Committee do not come under this Vote. I do not appoint the sittings of the Circuit Court or arrange where they are to take place. As I say, it is the Rule-making Committee that decides where in each county the Circuit Judge shall sit.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he has observed lately a tendency amongst District Justices to send a great many cases to Dublin for trial which could be dealt with locally?

Deputy Murphy is now on a different line of country. The Deputy apparently has criminal cases in his mind. These are sent on for trial by a District Justice and, if sent to a Circuit Court, will be tried there, except on the application of the Attorney-General or on the application of the prisoner they are sent to the Criminal Court.

Could the Minister give any indication when the Rule-making Committee will deal with this matter?

The Committee prepared, and went to an enormous amount of trouble in preparing, a set of rules which I thought were very good, but the Joint Committee of the Dáil and Seanad did not agree. The rules were laid on the Table of the House and it was contended that they were too elaborate and should be withdrawn. They were withdrawn. I have asked the Rule-making Committee to draft another set of rules and they are doing so. When these rules have been drafted they will in due course be laid on the Tables of both Houses.

Will the Minister give us an opportunity of making representations to the Committee?

When the rules are laid on the Table the Deputy can point out that they are not suitable. I think the Deputy said that the Circuit Court was not sitting in more than two or three places in Cork. My recollection is that there is a considerable number of places.

I am talking of West Cork.

I am referring to Cork county generally.

The Minister stated that when the rules are laid on the Table the Deputy might make suggestions, but have they not to be adopted in globo when submitted?

There has been a considerable amount of discussion on that point and there is a variety of opinion, but my remarks hold good, namely, that the Deputy can have the rules rejected in toto if he likes.

I do not think that the Deputy desires that.

Motion put and agreed to.
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