When I was speaking last night I referred to a statement by the Minister that allegations that certain documents and certain maps had been removed from the Ordnance Survey after the Treaty were groundless. I can produce evidence that there was a pretty considerable quantity of these materials taken after the Treaty or about the beginning of 1922. Since I was speaking last night I have seen Deputies, who, I regret to say, are not here now, and they state that they have also seen the ship's manifest. This man, MacNamara, said there was an entry in the ledgers of the contractor who was carrying the stuff showing that 108 tons of material were brought down from the Phoenix Park and put on board a ship at the North Wall. The manifest declared what was in that consignment—copper plates, zinc plates, etc. Deputies, who I regret to say are not here now, actually saw the manifest. That is pretty clear evidence that there is ground for belief that these things were shifted. As I said last night, I am not convinced, and I think it will be very hard to convince the House, that the facts were fairly disclosed and that there was no discrimination against people who held a national outlook in favour of those who are persona grata with the British authorities, people who are still belonging to the British reserves, such as the man who replaced MacNamara who was dismissed. I believe there was no reason why he should have been dismissed after 25 years' service, except that he reported that these things were going. The man who replaced him, and who is still in the service, is, I am told, a young fellow who was sent direct from the British Army and promoted when he got the job, to see that the essential documents, those particularly relating to defence, were removed. This man MacNamara was thrown out and got no gratuity. He was about to be arrested on another charge which the Minister is not yet satisfied, apparently, was groundless, because he said that although they could not convict him on it——
In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 24—Ordnance Survey (Resumed).
Mr. Boland
We cannot go into that question now.
Mr. Boland
With all deference, the Minister was allowed to make a statement when this matter was not under discussion.
The Minister did not make any statement in regard to it on this particular occasion. This matter was discussed on several occasions before. I will allow any question that is really connected with the Ordnance Survey, but we cannot deal with the dismissal of any person not dismissed in the last financial year. If we did we could go into the dismissal of every person dismissed for the last three or four years.
Mr. Boland
Can we discuss the policy of the Department with regard to employees?
The Deputy is doing that.
Mr. Boland
I want to say this man was dismissed——
The Deputy cannot go into the question of the dismissal of any person not dismissed last year.
Mr. Boland
Natives of another country are being shifted in here. Members of the British Army are still here, and they have control of a vital Department such as this. I cannot now go into the question of the dismissal of a man a few years ago. I suppose he has got to take what comes to him until an occasion arises such as arose in England quite recently, when a policeman dismissed some years ago was reinstated. When the same thing happens here he will get a chance, if there is any sense of justice. I say that the policy pursued all along the line is that civilian employees were being treated in a much worse manner than the military people who came over here prior to the Treaty. Some of them came over on Saturday, and on Monday were put on the service before it was handed over by the British in order that these people might be eligible under Article 10 of the Treaty. Civilian employees were dismissed because they would not join the Army, and as far as I know they did not get any justice.
I do not know whether I can again refer to the matter of the plates. I think it is of vital importance. The report of the Commission which has been referred to is only an incomplete interim report. If some other report, or if the minutes of the evidence which was given at the Commission are available, I would like to know where they could be found. I inquired in the Library, and I was shown only an interim report. I could not see the minutes of evidence or the final report which was promised in the interim report. I would like to know whether the Minister has got it, or if we could know, as we are entitled to know, if this Department is still a branch of the British Army as it was in the old days.
I hope before the Minister concludes he will deal with the points raised by Deputy Boland. Surely he will let the House know what has become of the report promised in the interim report. The final report was to deal with the more important matters referred to the Committee. As far as we can discover, that final report has not been presented. To my mind there is a general feeling of uneasiness as to the way in which the Ordnance Survey is staffed. I say it is an extraordinary thing that a department which is intimately concerned with the defence affairs of the country should be controlled by the ex-members of the army of another country, an army which has been used against the people of this country and which may possibly, though we hope not, be again used against the people of this country. I think that the most ordinary course of prudence would dictate that as far as this department is concerned, a department which in every country has a very close relation to the defence forces of the country, it should be under the control of people whose allegiance and whose nationality are not equivocal.
Deputy Boland has suggested that a number of maps, documents and papers were taken from the Ordnance Survey over to England in 1922. I hope the Minister has taken steps, or, if he has not, that he will take steps to ascertain whether any maps or documents relating to the Twenty-six counties have been removed in that way. It is very important that we should retain plates and maps of that sort. They are part of our national historical records, and I would be very anxious that if such documents were removed, they should be returned to this country to which they belong.
I would like to ask the Minister if the records of the trigonometrical survey have been all removed. These would be very important for checking work afterwards. They are the fundamental documents on which the whole survey is based.
A Committee was set up in 1925 to inquire into these matters with the late Mr. Sears as Chairman. A letter was sent out on the 31st March, 1925, informing Mr. Sears of the other members of the Committee. They were Professor Purcell, University College, Dublin; Mr. Nicholas O'Dwyer, who is an engineering inspector of the Local Government Department, and Mr. Diarmuid O'Hegarty, Secretary of the Executive Council. The terms of reference to the Committee were as follows:—
"To inquire and report (1) whether the Ordnance Survey has its full complement of plant and equipment.
"(2) Whether the Survey is in all respects, but particularly in regard to levelling, carried out on proper lines, and whether the maps issued by the Ordnance Survey represent correctly the results of the Survey."
The letter contained this paragraph:
"For your information I am to state that the circumstances leading to the appointment of the Committee suggest that among other things to which the evidence is likely to draw attention will be questions as to what survey plates, maps, machinery, equipment, etc., have been destroyed or removed from Dublin to Southampton or elsewhere outside Saorstát Eireann since 31st December, 1919; for what purpose and by whose authority the destruction or removal was effected; whether the efficiency of the survey has been impaired thereby, and what plates, maps, machinery, equipment, etc., have been returned to Dublin during the period in question."
The Committee reported on everything within the terms of reference, and the only thing that remained over for the final report suggested was the first question of the survey on the geodetic levelling, and some question in regard to the adequacy of the trigonometrical data. All the points raised were dealt with in the report. The Committee reported that so far as Captain MacNamara was concerned, his statements were altogether misleading and absurd and made with the deliberate intention of misleading, that he had been guilty of wild and reckless statements, and had given publicity to many of these unfounded allegations in the Press. Having considered the report of the Committee the Government were satisfied that the allegations which had been made were unfounded. They were satisfied that Captain MacNamara had been guilty of serious misconduct, so that he could not be retained in the public service, and he was discharged. I have not had time to read the report again since last night, and I am not going into it paragraph by paragraph. The matter has been up here on various occasions. The position is that the Committee, on which there were two engineers, a member of the Dáil and an outside person, found that all this matter raised by Captain MacNamara was a mare's nest. They got a most unfavourable impression of Captain MacNamara himself. Consequently I am not prepared to attach any weight to the letters which this gentleman continues to write.
The Minister has not got the final report.
The Deputy might wait until I come to that matter. The only question that remained over was the question that arose in the course of the investigations. I do not know what a geodetic survey is, but at any rate consultation with the Committee revealed that to go into the matter would be a very big business, as it had arisen only incidentally in the course of the inquiry. The members of the Committee did not think it was necessary. It was agreed that any further investigations along that line would be either postponed indefinitely or would not be undertaken, and that the question of the geodetic survey had nothing whatever to do with the allegations which Captain MacNamara had made and which led to the first inquiry. The final report would not have dealt with that.
Would the Minister deny that 108 tons of material were shifted to England, in view of the fact that the ship's manifest declared that, that it was entered on the contractor's ledgers, and that Deputies saw the manifest?
I have not had an opportunity of looking at the report since last night, and I do not want to rely too much on my memory. What I do say is, that all these allegations were fully inquired into by a competent Committee, they were dismissed, and that the man who made them had been then guilty of misleading and absurd statements. He made statements with the deliberate intention of deceiving, and so on.
Captain MacNamara made definite charges. One was that a fundamental plate had been cut up. No. 2, that large sections of fundamental trigonometrical data had been taken away. There were two or three charges of which these are samples. It is very easy to find out whether these charges are groundless or not, and the question is whether the Minister will give us a definite contradiction in any way to this charge and say that no plates were taken away and destroyed, and that we have here all the geometrical records and the trigonometrical data, so that in future any survey can be checked. That will ease our mind.
I cannot give details until I see this report, but these charges were made, and the Committee found that they were baseless and untrue. I did not inquire personally into the matter, but I accepted the finding of the Committee, and I am satisfied.
Mr. Boland
Referring to that report to which Deputy de Valera referred, I saw it recently. They were to deal with trigonometrical data. There was the word "geodetic." I think it has something to do with the defence maps of this country, which are most important.
That has nothing to do with the records or the question of whether the system of survey that had been adopted in the beginning, and acted on, was giving the best results. It had not anything to do with the point which Deputy Boland had in mind.
May I ask if steps have been taken to see whether we have a complete copy of those maps and data? The Committee reported that with the exception of some of the data all the plates, equipment and everything required for the full working of the survey was there. The Committee found that these charges were absolutely baseless.
Would the Minister make further inquiries into the ship's manifest of the materials which were taken away? There are members of this House who have seen that manifest.
If a copy of that ship's manifest will be sent to me by anyone who has it, I will see if anything is required. I will look again at the report of the Committee. I have not it here before me. I cannot say from memory that every point the Deputy has raised was actually considered by the Committee. If there were anything not considered by the Committee I am quite ready to have it considered. I am not going to open the matter, because from all I looked at I was satisfied that Captain MacNamara was entirely unreliable, and no importance could be attached to anything he said. Unless it comes from somebody else I will not consider it.
When the Minister read the report of the Committee in connection with the allegations of Captain MacNamara did it say that all the allegations were wrong, or some of them?
The Deputy can read the report himself. I cannot remember it.
Would it be a fact that the only reliable man you had was dismissed?
No.
Suppose I put down a question covering the charges with respect to the data, will the Minister have an investigation made so that we can get an answer?
Yes.