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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 10 Jul 1931

Vol. 39 No. 15

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Valuation and Boundary Survey.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £23,231 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Luachála Generálta agus na Suirbhéireachta Teorann fé sna hAchtanna 15 agus 16 Vict., c. 63; 17 Vict., c. 8; 17 Vict., c. 17; 20 agus 21 Vict., c. 45; 22 agus 23 Vict., c. 8; 23 Vict., c. 4; 27 agus 28 Vict., c. 52; 37 agus 38 Vict., c. 70; 61 agus 62 Vict., c. 37; Uimh. 19 de 1923; agus Uimh. 3 de 1927; agus fén Ordú Rialtais Aitiúla (Achtacháin d'Oiriúnú agus do chur i mBaint), 1925; maraon le Luacháil Diúité Estáit (10 Edw. 7, c. 8.)

That a sum not exceeding £23,231 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for the Salaries and Expenses of the General Valuation and Boundary Survey under the Acts 15 and 16 Vict., c. 63: 17 Vict., c. 8; 17 Vict., c. 17; 20 and 21 Vict., c. 45; 22 and 23 Vict., c. 8: 23 Vict., c. 4; 27 and 28 Vict., c. 52: 37 and 38 Vict., c. 70; 61 and 62 Vict., c. 37; No. 19 of 1923 and No. 3 of 1927; and under the Local Government (Application and Adaptation of Enactments) Order, 1925; including Estate Duty Valuation (10 Edw. 7, c. 8).

We do not propose to offer any objection to the passage of this Estimate, but in connection with it there is a matter which was adverted to by the Commission on De-rating, and that is that the valuation of the country is based on Griffith's survey and valuation made almost 100 years ago. I put it to the Minister two or three years ago that a good deal of the unfairness, and a good deal of the complaint which the agricultural community in general have in regard to local rates arose from the fact that these rates were based upon that valuation. I have a feeling for a long time that a revaluation of the country is over-due. The agricultural conditions have changed altogether from what they were in Griffith's time. The whole basis of the value of agricultural land has changed likewise. Nevertheless we continue to proceed upon an old, out-of-date, obsolete, basis, and there cannot be any fair distribution of the burden between the urban and agricultural community, and between various sections of the agricultural community unless a revaluation is made. If we had a sound basic foundation to go upon, I feel certain that a good many of the difficulties which the agricultural community experience at the present time would resolve themselves without any adventitious aid from the national exchequer, because these men would be rated for local purposes according to the real and actual value of the land to them, and not according to the value which it was to their forefathers almost 100 years ago. I should like if the Minister would give some indication as to the view of the Government in the matter.

I should like to say that, while a revaluation of agricultural land might be beneficial in certain areas that were wheat-growing areas when the land was valued, I believe it would not be beneficial so far as many of the areas in the poorer districts are concerned.

As a matter of fact, it would be.

Mr. O'Connell

I have reason to think otherwise. In any case, I want to say as a word of warning that it is very questionable, to say the least, whether it would benefit areas in the Gaeltacht or poorer areas in the West or South.

I should like to point out to Deputy O'Connell that one of the factors taken into consideration by Griffith in making the valuation was proximity to the seaboard, and that was held to increase the value of the land, and it is the poorer districts, the congested districts, which have been unfairly treated on that account. On account of proximity to the seaboard they are supposed to have special advantages so far as natural fertilisers and manures are concerned. Under modern conditions the comparative value of these has considerably depreciated, and I believe that one of the effects of revaluation would be to put those poorer districts upon a fairer basis and relieve the burden upon them.

Mr. O'Connell

I do not profess to have any personal knowledge of the matter, but the statement I have made has been made to me by people who are very well qualified to judge in the matter.

There is a case theoretically for revaluation, because naturally conditions have changed substantially since the time the Griffith valuation was made, and naturally the question has come up for consideration since the change of Government. But it is a very big and a costly job, and would occupy a very considerable period in carrying out. The argument that influenced the Government very much against seriously considering putting it in hands has been this, that agricultural conditions were very much disturbed during the war, and in fact economic conditions generally are in a rather abnormal condition. It is felt that general re-valuation should only be undertaken after there has been some years of as great a degree of agricultural normality as possible.

It would have been, for instance, obviously absurd to have carried out revaluation, say, in 1920 or 1921. Everything that would have been done then would soon have been very much more out of date than the Griffith valuation is even at the present time. And while, of course, things are not so very abnormal as they were, say, in 1920, nevertheless it is felt that some time should be allowed to elapse after reaching normal conditions before we would undertake this enormous task. I am speaking from memory now, but I think the Estimate made, after some little consideration by the Government, was that revaluation would cost three-quarters of a million, and would occupy eight or nine years or some period like that. The undertaking of a task like that is very big and should only be entered upon when it is felt with reasonable certainty that the result would be something that would have validity for a good period after the work is carried out.

It is very difficult for anyone to say how revaluation would affect the various areas. There are areas where one can say with reasonable certainty the valuation would be reduced. It is possible that some of the areas that Deputy O'Connell has in mind would have their valuation increased. On the other hand I think there are areas on the seaboard, where possibly what Deputy MacEntee said is right, that the allowance for having seaweed was greater than would be made now.

I am speaking personally when I say I met cases where the valuation is rather high on the sea coast as compared with land one mile or half a mile inland. I do not think that whatever revaluation would do it would go any distance towards solving the difficulties of the agricultural community. I think most probably what you would find as a result of revaluation would be that one patch had its valuation reduced by 25 per cent. and another patch had its valuation increased by 25 per cent. I am speaking relatively. Probably the whole nominal valuation would be substantially increased. But coming to relative figures, you would only have perhaps a decrease of 25 per cent., or it may be that on some of the wheat lands which were very highly valued the decrease would be a little larger and would give some relief to individuals, but it would not have a great effect on the whole agricultural position. Rates are important, but they are not so all-important as to cause a relatively minor change in the rating burden to be a solution of the difficulties of the agricultural community.

Perhaps the Minister would adopt the less expensive and less troublesome way of de-rating.

There are arguments against that.

There are one or two things that Deputy O'Connell and the Minister left out of consideration entirely. The readjustment between the urban and agricultural areas would be in favour of the agricultural areas as a whole in consequence of the revaluation. That is a very important factor, particularly for seaport towns, towns which are the ports of entry for a considerable portion of foreign produce. The valuations on premises in those towns, occupied by a number of importers, would be considerably increased, and under that head alone there would be a readjustment in favour of the agricultural population. With regard to the cost of the undertaking, the Minister has put the figure at three-quarters of a million. The House has to remember that that sum would be almost entirely expended in paying wages to young engineers, in particular to civil engineers, who have no opening in this country at present and are compelled to go abroad, as well as in paying wages to assistants, skilled and unskilled. A large part of the labour in this connection would be unskilled labour which can be trained with comparative ease.

At the moment we have a large section of our population unemployed, but here is work which, I believe, could be usefully undertaken at a cost, as the Minister says, of three-quarters of a million. Virtually the whole of it would be spent in salaries and wages, in salaries to engineers who cannot find work here at present, and in wages to the more luckless element of the community, unskilled labourers who cannot get abroad and are compelled to starve at home. That is one important feature in connection with this matter. The Minister advanced another reason for not going forward with this, that the Government were waiting until stable conditions had been created. In the twenty-six counties agriculture has been reduced to one dull level of depression. I do not think the Minister is going, in the next five or six years, or possibly in twenty years, if his policy is pursued, to find that there is going to be any great improvement. There is, as I have said, the one dull level of depression in agriculture in every part of the State. That is going to continue as long as the Minister remains in office, and as he is probably, according to himself, looking forward to a continuance of the term of a Cumann na nGaedheal——

The Deputy, without any right, is attempting to conclude the debate. The Minister is supposed to conclude.

I will leave it at that.

Vote put and agreed to.
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