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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 23 Jun 1933

Vol. 48 No. 9

Additional Estimate. - Damage to Property (Compensation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1933—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The text of this Bill is precisely the same as that of the withdrawn Damage to Property (Compensation) (Amendment) Bill to which the House gave a Second Reading on 17th May, with certain exceptions. Since the Second Reading of the Bill which has been withdrawn further consideration has been given to an aspect concerning which representations have been made to the Minister for Finance from time to time. As Deputies are aware, the recent Bill only covered the same period as that covered by the existing Damage to Property (Compensation) Acts, namely, from 21st January, 1919, which was the date the First Dáil met, to 12th May, 1923. Apart from the special provision made by these Acts, claims in respect of damage to property are, under the Criminal Injuries Code, determinable by the courts, any compensation awarded being charged on local rates. This was the position as respects damage to property in the period prior to January, 1919. Damage caused by British military or police forces was outside the scope of the Criminal Injuries Acts and in 1916 the British Government felt compelled to set up a special committee to deal extra statutorily with claims for damage done during and after the Rising of 1916. This committee rejected a number of claims on the ground of the applicants' complicity with the Rising, with the result that a number of persons who suffered damage failed to obtain compensation from any official source.

This new paragraph which has been incorporated in the Bill enables such persons now to make a claim for compensation to the Circuit Court, if the damage was caused in one or other of the circumstances detailed in the paragraph, that is to say, while the premises were being defended in arms against the British authorities by any person ordinarily resident therein, or while such person was under arrest or was endeavouring to resist arrest. The paragraph as drawn covers not merely the period immediately subsequent to the Rising of 1916, but the period between the date of the Rising, and the date of the assembly of the First Dáil, because it is felt that a number of other cases may come to light as a consequence of the additional powers which are being asked for, and that arising out of the conscription period similar cases may fall to be dealt with.

In paragraph (b) of Section 2 (1) the words in brackets, "including damage to or destruction of property occasioned by acts of the British military or police authorities acting or purporting to act under martial law" are also new. The object of these words in brackets is to remove a doubt which arose as to whether the paragraph as originally drafted covered damage to property in the Twenty-Six County area in pre-Truce days, where the damage was done by Crown Forces as a matter of military necessity.

In Section 1 of the Bill the word "injury" is defined as having the same meaning as it has in the Act of 1923, that is to say, "any loss, damage or injury in respect of which compensation could be given under the Criminal Injuries Acts." On further consideration, it was felt that a court might possibly hold that the provisions of paragraph (b) of Section 2 (1) as originally drafted applied only to damage which could have been the subject of an award of compensation under the Criminal Injuries Acts, and that damage done by order of the military authorities is outside the scope of those Acts, and therefore outside the scope of the Bill. A few claims in respect of damage sustained in such circumstances have already been received in the Department of Finance, and presumably these claims will be presented to the Circuit Court in due course. Our intention was clearly to make these people eligible for compensation. As the matter does not appear to be free from doubt, the words in brackets have been added to make clear the intention of the Legislature.

In Section 2, sub-section (2), the following words, which appear in brackets in lines 34 and 35, "save as is otherwise provided in any subsequent provision of this Act" are also new. In the debate on the Second Reading of the original Bill, Deputy Esmonde suggested that there was some conflict between Section 2 and the present Section 12, which was Section 10 in the withdrawn Bill. The former, which indicates the classes of claims which may be made the subject of compensation under this Bill, provides that the Bill does not apply to any loss or damage in respect of which compensation has been paid by any Department of State or by the Commissioners of Public Works. On the other hand, Section 12 in the present draft, which deals with recovered property which has been or will be the subject of compensation, provides that that section does, by implication, apply to cases in which a payment of compensation has been made out of public funds. While it is not admitted that there is so obvious a conflict as Deputy Esmonde suggested, it was considered desirable, as the question had been raised, to remove any doubt in the matter. Accordingly, I had already, as in the case of the other alterations made by this Bill, given notice of an amendment which would have that purpose. In sub-section (2) of this section, in lines 37-39, the following words, which are also new, are being inserted, "the Government of the late United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, any local authority." This addition is consequential on and becomes necessary by reason of the insertion of paragraph (a) in Section 2. Its effect is to exclude claims for damage to property in respect of which a payment has already been made by the British Government or by a local authority.

Section 8 of the Bill is an entirely new section. It was at first thought that the general power conferred by Section 66 of the Courts of Justice Act, 1924, to make rules of the Circuit Court would extend to the making of rules of court for the purposes of the Bill. On further consideration, however, it was felt to be safer to take express power to make these rules, as was laid down in Section 19 of the Principal Act. The new section confers this power by definitely applying the provisions of Section 19 of the original Act to this Bill.

Section 10 is also a new section. It arises out of the discovery that in a number of cases where decrees were granted by the Circuit or County Court, under Part II of the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923, notice of appeal was lodged on behalf of the State on the ground, inter alia, that paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of Section 9 of the original Act applied to the application. Deputies will recollect that one of the reasons why it is necessary to bring in this Bill at all is the number of cases where damage to property was suffered and where the aggrieved persons were debarred, under Section 9, from applying for compensation because of certain political associations which they were supposed to have. In some of the cases in which notice of appeal had been given, an agreement was reached out of court under which the applicant agreed to accept a reduced payment in discharge of the decree originally made in his favour, on condition that the appeal would be withdrawn. After a perusal of the files I am inclined to think that in at least some of these cases Section 9 was unduly relied on to force a settlement. This new section proposes to give me power to reopen such cases and, where I consider that course warranted, to pay such further compensation as I may think proper, but not exceeding the amount of the deduction already made from the original decree.

I do not follow that last sentence.

I am to have power to pay such further compensation as I may think proper, but not exceeding the amount of the deduction already made from the original decree. That is to say, I propose to place these people in exactly the same position as that in which others who were not affected by Section 9 were allowed to remain. They can be granted now the amount of the decree originally awarded.

Can the Minister say if the appeals in these cases were on the question of amount?

In many cases they were on all grounds. It is quite clear from the documents I have seen that where the State had reason to believe the decisions of the Circuit Court on matters of fact—that is to say, as to the amount of compensation awarded —would not be reversed, it relied entirely on Section 9 to compel a settlement.

Our desire is to see these people in the same position in which they would have been if Section 9 had not been in the original Act. If a reinstatement condition is attached to the original decree, it will be open under this new section to the Minister to make any further payment he may now authorise conditional on compliance with that or any other condition he sees fit to impose. The necessity for allowing him the alternative is that in some cases it may not be possible now to insist on the fulfilment of the original condition since rebuilding may have been already completed within the amount of the compensation actually paid. I should say that this is the reason why it is proposed to leave the Minister free to impose any condition, but in practice it is not likely that any condition other than a building condition such as out-offices or buildings of that nature would be imposed.

Sub-section (3) of the new section expressly provides that the 10 per cent. addition which was payable under the 1926 Damage to Property Act shall apply and be payable in these cases. This is necessary in order to place the applicant in as good a position as he would have been in had the appeal not been taken. The granting of the additional payments in these cases, in contradistinction to its refusal under Section 9 of the Bill in other cases, is defensible on the ground that in making any payment our predecessors admitted the applicant's legal right to compensation, whereas the persons covered by Section 9 are now, for the first time, being made legally eligible. The 10 per cent. addition has been allowed on the compensation already paid. We propose to allow the balance which would remain to be paid after the people originally compensated had been given the benefit of the new Section 10.

These are the only new provisions in this Bill apart from those which were contained in the Bill which was withdrawn and which already had passed its Second Reading in this House. What I have said in regard to consequential damage and to the impossibility of compensating for billeting and other services of that nature will remain, as far as this Bill is concerned. The amendments have been already before the House for a considerable period, but in essence the principle of the Bill remains exactly the same as the original Bill. I hope the House will give the Bill a formal Second Reading and the amendments can then be discussed on the Committee Stage.

If I am not mistaken this Bill was only circulated this morning.

Yes, but I pointed out that it was the old Bill with——

I know that all right; I have not read it, having only got it this morning, and until now on listening to the Minister's statement I did not know its provisions. I do not like the manner in which it is proposed to deal with Section 9 in cases where the accommodation was found. This Bill is a departure from the Minister's strict practice. The Minister now would have to decide in these cases as to reopening or whether he was satisfied that the original decree should stand. That places the Minister in an anomalous position. I think that claims ought to be the subject of a court decision; these claims ought to come before the court. If the Minister is satisfied that there is a case for appeal then that is another matter. This new departure is open to very great objection. The Minister will realise that after a couple of years and he will come to the conclusion that it would have been much better in those cases of compensation if the claims had come before the courts and were decided there.

There are two sections to which I propose to refer. One is the section dealing with the limitation of time for payment of certain classes of compensation. Now a very great addition is being given to certain people by this measure and there are some cases which may possibly be the cause of hardship by reason of this limitation of time. I am not prepared to deny that 11 years is a long period, but 11 years would be a long period in certain cases while it would be a short period in others. I have in mind one case of compensation where a decree was obtained with the condition of reconstruction and that person will not reconstruct. Possibly his successor in title would be most anxious to reconstruct. Meanwhile the life of one individual stops the house being built. In a second case the people referred to were awarded compensation. Can the Minister say how many cases of compensation have been brought to his notice under this heading? If I am not mistaken there is only one such case. I put it to the Minister: is it worth while for one case to have that provision inserted? It is unlikely that any other cases will occur. If so is the amount considerable? It appears to be disappearing. There is revealed here in one direction generosity and in the other cheeseparing. I think the Bill might be just as well without that particular section.

In cases where compensation was awarded in respect of quite a number of items, if I am not mistaken, they were regarded as hotch-potch. There were cases where sums very closely approximating to the value were obtained by decrees of the court, but in other cases very much smaller sums were decreed in compensation because of the lack of information. In a case with which I was in touch there was one article included and it was subsequently discovered that it had been taken out. In other cases very valuable articles were not included, so that in cases where one had a list of items, it was found that very valuable items were not included. Where articles were recovered a round sum was taken as the value of the entire property. Very few people keep an exact description of every article of furniture in the house. I knew one case in which that had been done when people went into a house, but when they were in it a couple of years the list did not bear a close approximation to the value of the articles. I think that, on reflection, the Minister would be very well advised to exclude that section from the Bill.

Has the Minister any idea of what it is going to cost?

Ultimately about £150,000. On the point which Deputy Cosgrave has raised in regard to Section 10, I do not think that we would be justified in doing as he suggests in view of the fact that it was not the practice of the Court of Appeal to reverse the findings of the lower courts on questions of fact, including the assessment of the damage done.

The value of the damage?

Yes, the assessment of the damage done. I do not think it is desirable that we should compel these people now to go to the expense, ten years later, of defending an award made to them by the lower court, an award properly made to them. For that reason, I do not think I can accept the suggestion of Deputy Cosgrave. This is a matter to which I have given a great deal of consideration and I have come to the conclusion that in all the circumstances it would be better to leave the matter as in the Bill, since it is the intention of the Legislature now to put these people on exactly the same footing as other persons injured or aggrieved during the period covered by the Bill. I do not think it would be desirable to inflict on them what would be a hardship—of having to come ten years later to defend their case in the Appeal Court. The number of cases are relatively small, not more than five or six at the outside, and it would be much better to draw a curtain over the whole of that period and put them in the same position as the others.

With regard to section 11, I would be prepared on the Committee Stage to consider an amendment, not to the principle of the section, but relating to the final date upon which compensation might be paid. I think we must stand on the principle in Section 12, which is that, once a person has been compensated for property taken or destroyed, the State, having paid the compensation, becomes entitled to the property. I do not think we can allow anybody to have it both ways. Either they lost the property or they did not lose it. If they were compensated for the loss of the property, in my opinion, they lost title to it. It is not a hardship because it is provided in sub-section (3) that "Where any chattels become the property of the Minister for Finance by virtue of this section, the person who satisfies the said Minister that he would, but for this section, be the owner of such chattels shall be entitled to purchase such chattels from the said Minister at a price equal to the amount of the compensation paid or awarded in respect of the destruction, taking away or loss of such chattels."

Yes, but those things may not be included in the list. It is quite possible they may not. I know of one case in which certain articles were not included at all in the compensation.

Well, then, if they were not included compensation was not paid for them and, therefore, they belong to the owner.

The Minister could claim that the man was compensated in respect of his whole property.

If there was a list of the articles, and these particular articles were not included in the compensation, they would remain the property of the owner. If there was such a list and they were included then I think, it would be a matter of equitable arrangement between the Minister and the person concerned and we certainly would come to an agreement as to what the value of these articles might be. The owner would have an opportunity of re-purchasing the articles from the Minister if he so desired. I do not think the section is a harsh one. I think it is meant to deal with a situation that has arisen and which may possibly arise in the future.

But in ten years there was only one case.

Yes, but the amount of compensation involved in that case was not inconsiderable.

But there was only one case in ten years?

As a matter of fact, there are two cases—at least, two cases —and in one of these a payment has already been made to the Minister for Finance by the owner. So, that particular owner has quite frankly acknowledged his obligation in the matter. We only want to put the original owners of any further property that may be discovered on the same footing as this owner. First of all, the section compels me to approach the original owner before I dispose of the chattels and give him an opportunity to buy them back.

Yes, but in essence the Minister is entering into possession of the property by this Act.

Yes, but I am compelled by this section to give the owner the opportunity to repurchase.

Well, I shall be when it becomes law. I am compelled to offer him an opportunity of buying the chattels back at the price which he thinks they are worth to him and I think, in view of the fact that we have paid for the whole of that——

That is a very nice question.

Well, at any rate, I am taking up the attitude that we have. Otherwise, what did we pay for?

With regard to the case I have mentioned already, I do not suppose there was one other case where there was a schedule in the house of everything, and the reason for that was that there was an anticipation on the part of the owner that they would be burned by people other than those who actually burned them.

What did we pay compensation for?

For bulk in a great many cases.

We bought the title to those articles for the loss or destruction of which the owners were compensated. I think we are justified in including the section in the Bill. We are not aggrieving an owner in any way. If he attaches a sentimental value to these articles we are compelled to give him an opportunity of buying them back.

The Minister mentioned a sum of £150,000. How many claims will that cover?

I could not say.

How did you arrive at £150,000?

The Deputy ought to have made a speech on that subject when it was raised and I could have dealt with it then.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 28th June, 1933
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