Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jul 1933

Vol. 48 No. 17

Vote 56—Industry and Commerce.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £71,577 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí, agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £71,577 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee, and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The most important change in the provision for this Department is an increase of £7,931, being an increase in respect of administrative expenses in connection with the Trade and Industries branch. Owing to the greatly increased work which has arisen in connection with the Government's policy on the protection of industries, the development of Irish industries, and projects giving employment here, a great deal of extra work has arisen. I think that Deputies will realise from the amount of legislation that has gone through the House, the amount of Orders that have been made regarding tariffs, and the greater complexity of that work, that in connection with the protective policy of the Government alone it is obvious that an additional staff would have been required. An additional staff is also required to deal with many other matters, such as licences, giving information to persons anxious to start industries, and carrying on negotiations with firms which desire to start industries, or to develop their existing industries. All that work has greatly increased and it has been found absolutely necessary to increase the staff in the Trade and Industries branch. One superintending officer, four higher executive officers, nine junior executive officers, and ten clerical officers have been appointed. That accounts for the increase of £7,931 under that head.

In connection with travelling expenses and incidental expenses there is a small casual decrease. Telegrams and telephones show a casual increase of £110. Fees of certifying surgeons is a nominal figure which arises because provision has to be made under the Factories and Workshops Act for certifying surgeons. Sub-heads F. and G. do not call for any special consideration. As to sub-head H. (1)—Grant-in-Aid of the expenditure of the International Labour Organisation, League of Nations—the subscription is increased and a note in the Estimates, on page 56, explains how the contribution which the Saorstát makes to the International Labour Organisation is computed. A certain provision is allocated between the different States and the amount attributable to the Irish Free State is £3,467. There is, however, a loss on the exchange, as the contribution is payable in foreign currency, necessitating an additional payment of £1,645, or a total of £5,112. There is a small increase in travelling and incidental expenses in connection with the travelling expenses to the International Labour Organisation. A small amount is allowed for entertainment purposes and a sum of £70 or £80 has been found to be necessary to pay the travelling and subsistence allowances of each delegate attending.

Sub-head I. makes provision for £4,700 for the Saorstát exhibit at the Chicago World Fair. In last year's Estimate provision for £300 was made out of a total provision made by the Executive of £5,000. This exhibit is being organised under the direction and supervision of the Saorstát Consul at New York, I think, and there is a very good exhibit indeed of Free State industrial products generally. The Executive Council were satisfied that it would be worth while to spend this money, which may look large, but which we found on examination was the least that we would have to spend in order to get a fairly reasonable exhibit. As Deputies are aware, the costs are somewhat higher in the United States in connection with matters of this kind than elsewhere. There is also provision for £3,000 as a grant-in-aid of the Irish National Exhibition, Cork, 1933. When the estimate was framed it was thought that the exhibition would be held and the Government were prepared, and made arrangements accordingly, to give a grant-in-aid of £3,000. We now find that the exhibition is not to be held, so this money will be saved.

In sub-head K. provision is made for the exhibit at the Paris Fair. The Paris Fair is a yearly event and is of great commercial importance and arrangements were accordingly made to have an exhibit of Saorstát manufactured goods. Most countries exhibit their goods at the Paris Annual Fair. The firms who might be interested were circularised in the matter and a certain amount of success was achieved. Not every firm, I must say, responded, but the exhibit will include such goods as Gaeltacht industrial products, biscuits, woollen piece goods, whiskey, hosiery, woollen and knitted goods, linen goods, arts and crafts, poplin and stout. The reservation of space is calculated to cost about £150 and, in addition to that, it will be necessary to provide for the hire of an attendant, for decoration, and for some incidental expenses, details of which are not yet available.

I do not think there is any other matter arising on the expenditure under this Vote as compared with former years. The important difference, as I have pointed out, is the increase in the provision for salaries, wages and allowances, owing to the extra provision of staff which has been found necessary in the Trade and Industries Branch and which could not be avoided in view of the Government policy.

The Minister has been of great assistance to those who cannot read. To those of us who can, and whose interest in this Estimate is to hear from the Minister what his Department has been doing for the development of Irish industry and commerce during the last 12 months, he has not been of very much assistance; in fact, he has been of no assistance. He speaks of the additional cost of the Trade and Industries Branch. The estimated expenditure on wages and salaries last year was £92,569, and the increased estimated expenditure in the Trade and Industries Branch this year over the expenditure last year is £10,600 odd. That is, the expenditure in that branch alone of his Department has gone up by one-ninth of the total expenditure on salaries and wages in his Department last year, and we have not heard one single word about what these officials are doing. We are told about the exhibit in Chicago. We are told that an exhibit is going to be made there of Free State industrial products generally. We are not told that, when Irish artists were invited to send forward specimens of their paintings, the portrait of Arthur Griffith was submitted in response to that invitation and was turned down by the Minister's Department as not being a suitable subject to send in the art section to the Chicago Exhibition, because the subject of that portrait, who was one of the founders of the Free State, was not persona grata with the present Government. We are told about some of these minor matters which, as I say, we could read about ourselves. Even when the Minister does touch on the Chicago exhibit he keeps back very interesting and very important information. While to-day he is boasting of Free State industrial products, the portrait painted by an eminent Irish artist of one of the men most responsible for the setting up of this State which is to have an exhibit at Chicago is not considered suitable to include in the art section of the Chicago Exhibition, because the person is not persona grata with the present Government.

However, we are concerned here, in the discussion of the Estimate, with the Minister's Department and what it is doing. While we had, in dealing with the Budget, a most exalted and enthusiastic description by the Minister for Industry and Commerce of what was happening in the country with regard to the development of industry and all that was going to happen, we now find, when it comes down to a critical discussion in Committee of this House on the Estimate for the Department, that the same silence has fallen over the Department of Industry and Commerce as fell so remarkably over the Department of Agriculture when the Minister for Agriculture came to introduce his Estimate here.

The Minister for Agriculture is now visiting different parts of the country explaining that he sympathises with the farmers and that he knows they are in a bad condition. Are we to understand that Irish industry is in a bad condition too? The Minister for Industry and Commerce, when dealing with the Financial Resolution in the main Budget debate on 11th May last said, as reported in column 920 of the Official Reports——

I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy. I take it we will go on until 7 o'clock if the Deputy is willing. It will facilitate us if we kept on at least until 7 o'clock.

If the House is willing to continue.

The understanding was that No. 9—Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds Bill—would be taken at 6.30, and the Industrial Credit Bill at 7.30, but speaking for myself, if it is convenient to continue this discussion until 7 o'clock, I have no objection to make.

If that is done I should like to know what time the Industrial Credit Bill will be taken.

At 8 o'clock.

I understood the arrangement was that at 6.30 this discussion would come to an end, and the Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds Bill would come on.

It will come on in half an hour.

Do I understand that No. 9 will be taken at 7 o'clock and No. 10 at 8 o'clock?

That is really what the House has agreed to. This discussion is to continue until 7 o'clock. Is that the arrangement?

And then we take the Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds Bill.

When we had the budgetary discussion here the Minister for Industry and Commerce made the following statement (column 920 of the Official Debates of the 11th May, 1933):—

"The fact is that despite world depression, despite the peculiar circumstances of the economic war we have made more progress, industrially, nationally and economically, during the past 12 months than was made in the previous 50 years. Deputies who controvert that statement have got to produce facts and have got to produce figures. They must examine the records."

I can understand the silence of the Minister for Education in dealing with this Estimate in the absence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, if he also was not at that time rather enthusiastic about the general development here. In spite of the serious conditions generally throughout the world he said in column 887 of the Official Debates that we "had not failed in regard to the provision of purchasing power for the people and were not failing in our endeavours to provide them with a better standard of living." The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that if we are to controvert his rather remarkable and enthusiastic statement that we have made more industrial progress during the last 12 months than this country had made for the last 50 years we should consult his figures. The House knows how often and how strongly Deputies have pleaded here for a look at some of the information contained in the Minister's records. We have been anxious to see what the records of development here are.

The Minister has made various promises on different occasions. He promised us on the 26th April a return of employment which he "intended to submit to the House at the earliest possible moment. That was when he was asked for information with regard to the employment in tariffed industries in respect of which a record had been kept half-yearly up to the 1st September, 1931, and the compilation of which was discontinued by the Minister. He promised it would be issued in respect of the period to the 1st March last. At any rate he promised us a return of Employment, which he "intended to submit to the House at the earliest possible moment." He promised us again on the 5th April last that he was issuing a Directory of Manufacturers, and that that would contain all the information which, judging from the attitude which he took, he thought proper to have in the hands of Deputies with regard to the development of Irish industry here. He also promised us an analysis of the types of persons that were regarded as unemployed in the weekly record of unemployment figures, and he promised that the figures for the 16th January would be analysed. He told us he had been analysing them. On the 27th April last he told us that the result of that analysis was of definite interest, and that he would endeavour to make it available. We have had no report of unemployment, except the reply to a Parliamentary question yesterday can be considered to be some kind of a report. We have heard nothing at all from the Minister as to the position of the Directory of Manufacturers, and the Acting Minister told us yesterday that he did not intend to publish for the information of this House an analysis of the unemployment figures to 16th January last.

Now we come to the position as disclosed in the figures quoted by the Minister yesterday. In reply to a Parliamentary Question he gave figures as to the total number of persons employed in a certain number of industries, tariffs on which had been imposed by the previous administration, tobacco, boots and shoes etc., numbering, say, 19 in all. When we come to look at those figures a rather remarkable state of affairs is disclosed. Deputies will remember that on the 13th January, I think it was, the Minister for Industry and Commerce made a pre-election statement giving information as to the number of new factories that have been set up in this country since the Fianna Fáil Government came into office. Among the many factories set up he told us there were seven new furniture factories. I endeavoured to find out some information with regard to those furniture factories, the amount of capital invested in them, whom they belonged to, where they were, the number of persons employed and the wages paid. I was told that I could not get any information about them. We were afterwards told by the Minister that the new factories were all located in the City of Dublin. The Minister told us yesterday that the total number of persons employed in the furniture industry on the 1st March, 1933, was 1,400. The last issued information from the Department of Industry and Commerce placed in the library shows that on the 1st September, 1931, 18 months before that date, there were 1,545 persons employed. Whereas the Minister for Industry and Commerce tells this House that seven new furniture factories were set up in Dublin prior to 13th January, and since the Fianna Fáil Government came into office, although he will not tell us anything more about them, we now learn that the number of persons employed in the furniture making industry in this country has decreased by 145 persons in the 18 months ended 1st March.

If a factory is burned down, are the Government to blame?

At any rate I am talking of the 1st March. If there is anything in the point that a dislocation of industry has taken place as a result of a fire, we should like to hear from the Minister if the seven new factories have been burned down, and if the 145 persons who have become disemployed since September, 1931, were employed in the old factories. At any rate we should like some information on the furniture industry, when we take into consideration that a further £10,000 is being spent on the administration of the Trade and Industries section of the Minister's Department.

Among the new factories that were announced to have been established in the Minister's statement of the 13th January, new factories set up after the Fianna Fáil Government had come into office, there were two new factories for the manufacture of brushes and brooms. Nevertheless, when we turn to the information provided yesterday as to the number of persons employed in the brush-making industry on the 1st March this year, and compare it with the number of persons employed on the 1st September, 1931, the last date for which the Minister permits us to get information, we find that the number of persons employed in the brush-making industry has gone down by 20 —from 351 to 331—in spite of the fact that two new factories have been set up in the meantime. Both the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce were challenging from a very high and toploftical understanding of things some of the statements made from these benches during the Budget debates on the question of tobacco manufacture in this country. I pointed out that in the 12 months ended December last the total amount of unmanufactured tobacco brought into this country was down by one-third. That was for last year, as against the year before. And I suggest that the assertion of the Minister for Education that the standard of living in this country was being maintained is untrue if the consumption of tobacco was to be taken as a test for that standard. The high financial understanding would, of course, scorn that idea.

We look at the imports of unmanufactured tobacco for the first five months of that year, and whereas the imports of unmanufactured tobacco last year had gone down by one-third, the total amount of unmanufactured tobacco imported in the first five months of this year was only one-third of what was imported in the first five months of last year. In the first five months of last year 5,105,000 lbs. of unmanufactured tobacco was imported as against 1,600,000 lbs. of unmanufactured tobacco this year. The Minister will argue that it is all nonsense to suggest that that shows a lowering of the standard of living in the future or that it implies that there was to be less employment. The figures quoted to the House showed that there were 86 fewer persons employed in the first six months of this year as compared with the number who had been employed in the six months ending September last year.

Let us now take as examples furniture, brushes and tobacco. In spite of the fact that in the Minister's opinion we have had more progress industrially in the last twelve months than in the previous 50 years, this is the position as far as these few industries are concerned:—As far as the total items quoted to us in reply to a question I put down yesterday, the position was that the total number of additional persons given employment in 18 months was 1,689 persons. If the Minister will look back over the record of figures of which this is a continuation he will see that in six months from the 1st March, 1929, to 1st September, 1929, there had been 2,427 additional persons put into employment. So that for one of a rather important list of industries—a list of industries tariffed under a previous administration—there is a record surpassing the record of the last 50 years. The record for the last 18 months falls below one particular six months of the previous administration.

It was argued on the Budget statement that the fact that we were not getting in as much revenue from Customs was a very important fact, but that it was a splendid index to the growth of industry in this country. But when we turn to some of the items in respect of which we have a drop in revenue and Customs, if we expect from the Minister's statement an increase in industry here we are disappointed. For the 12 months ending December last the value of imports of men's and boys' suits fell from £207,000 to £154,000, that is a decrease of £53,000. That is to say, the value of the import fell by one-fourth.

When we turn to the first six months of this year we find that the value of imports is very much down as compared with the value of imports last year. The value of imports in the first five months of last year was £88,175, and the value of imports in the first five months of this year was £26,092. That is a fall of over £62,000. The imports had fallen by more than two-thirds. If the Minister will look at the figures he has published as to the average output of workers in the different industries he will see a drop of £62,000 in these imports. That would represent if the work were taken on here, an increase in employment of about 1,200 persons. But when we turn to the Minister's figures to see what additional persons have been employed, we find that whereas on the 1st September, 1931, there were 3,858 persons employed in the making of men's clothing, there was a reduction of 490 persons in these figures by the 1st March, 1933. The number of persons employed has fallen to 3,368. So that as to the £62,000 of a drop in imports in the first five months of this year, not only was not that found to mean an increase in employment in the number of persons making men's and boys' clothing, but actually there was a decrease compared with the number employed in the previous period. That decrease amounted to 490 persons. We now turn to the furniture business in the same way. In the first five months of last year the value of furniture imported into the country was £41,350. The imports into this country in the first five months this year amounted to £17,711, so that there is actually a drop there of over £23,000. I have already quoted the figures to show that there has been a drop in the number of persons employed in the furniture industry, so that the drop in the import of furniture is not met by an increase in employment given here this year. If we are using less tobacco and therefore giving less employment in the tobacco manufacture, we are using less clothing as far as men and boys are concerned, and we are using less furniture.

How does the Deputy know we are using less furniture?

When the Minister comes to deal with that I will be prepared to listen to him with the greatest care, at the greatest length, and with the greatest patience. I will listen to anything the Minister may have to say that will interpret these figures with regard to the reduction in the number of persons employed in the manufacture of tobacco.

What about the tobacco in bond?

The Minister has all the figures for the tobacco in bond. The Minister has had plenty of warning that all these figures would be dealt with. We will listen to what he has to say about these figures. He has taken an interest in the matter; the Minister for Industry and Commerce has taken an interest in the matter, and the Minister for Finance has taken an interest in the matter. May we hope now that when again, in our ignorance apparently, we bring the facts of the situation before the Minister and his colleagues, they will say something on this subject, so that our anxieties may be relieved by having something said about industry and commerce, if nothing can be said about agriculture?

There are other matters that we would like the Minister to explain. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, when speaking in the discussion on the Budget on the 11th May, went through a regular gamut of industries and talked about them in the most glowing terms. He said: "Take the confectionery industry. Employment in it has been doubled. The output has been more than doubled, and it is still increasing." Then he rather wavers a bit. He said: "Progress has not yet stopped in that industry," and he picks up courage and says: "One new factory of considerable magnitude is being built, and there are more to come." In the confectionery industry employment has been doubled and the output more than doubled. When we come to take the Minister's figures we find that on the 1st September, 1931, there are 5,096 persons employed in that industry, and on the 1st March, 1933, there are 5,247. In an industry that employs more than 5,000 persons there was an addition of 151 in 18 months.

The Minister spoke on the 11th May.

Yes, and the Minister, when he was speaking on the 11th May, which was about two months and two weeks after the 1st March, the date to which these figures referred, two months and two weeks after figures were disclosed to the Minister indicating that in an industry which employed 5,096 persons on the 1st September, 1931, 151 additional persons had been put into employment, was able to say that employment in the industry had doubled and the output had more than doubled. When the Minister is dealing with the position as regards tobacco, an industry in which we are interested in this country, I will be glad if he will deal also with sugar confectionery, as he seems to know something about it and to have something to explain as to what is behind these figures.

In the hosiery industry the Minister said we had more than doubled production and many substantial orders for foreign markets were received. The figures quoted yesterday show a definite improvement. I would like to know how an increase of one-third in the numbers employed in that industry has had the effect of doubling the production. I spoke of the position as regards men's clothing and the Minister spoke of the position as regards women's clothing. On the 11th May he said: "I have not yet referred to women's garments of all kinds, an industry which was practically nonexistent 12 months ago, but which is at the present time employing several thousand hands." Yesterday the Minister for Education said that information in regard to the numbers employed is not available. I do not know what we can make out of the statements made by the Minister to the effect that several thousand hands are employed. We are told in other circumstances that progress has been greater and more rapid than it was in this country for the last 50 years.

There is something definitely at variance between the statements that are being made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and others. We had occasion previously to point out the discrepancy between the number of new factories as quoted by the President and the number of new factories as quoted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The President addressed the country generally on this subject the other day at Kilkenny. He told the people, particularly those responsible for the administration of our towns, that he was not satisfied that people with capital are taking sufficient advantage of the opportunity to extend and to establish industries. He carried it further when addressing the electors of the City of Dublin. The Minister's Party in some of their literature advised the citizens generally in this fashion. One pamphlet states: "Dublin is Ireland's premier industrial city." It is the city which is able to establish seven new furniture factories, while bringing about a reduction in the number of persons employed on furniture-making by 145. At any rate, it is our premier industrial city and the Minister's Party points out that in other cities and towns Fianna Fáil councillors and mayors work in cooperation with the Department of State in offering facilities and advantages to industrialists to erect and extend factories. Already, the circular says, many firms which might have erected factories in Dublin have been induced to go elsewhere because the local authorities in other centres were more alive to the possibilities of the present position.

In what way does this relate to the functions of the Minister for Industry and Commerce?

It is annoying.

Not a bit annoying.

The Minister for Education, when he speaks on the subject of industrial development, says that the general policy of the Government is to build up the industries in our towns and villages as fast as ever they can. I have endeavoured to find out from the Minister for Local Government, in order to help the development of industries, what powers local authorities have so as to give assistance to people building up industries. I have not been able to find that out from the Minister. If the Minister for Industry and Commerce is able to tell us in what way local authorities can assist the development of industries throughout the country we will be very glad to hear it and so will local authorities, too. I am dealing now with the President's complaint, that they are not receiving help from capitalists in building up industries of this country. I move to report progress.

That half-hour was not so very illuminating.

Not nearly as illuminating as the fire which caught the plans of the factories in the wastepaper basket.

Progress reported.
Barr
Roinn