Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 May 1935

Vol. 56 No. 15

Supplementary Estimate. - Vote No. 1—Governor-General's Establishment.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,330 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Teaghlachas an tSeanascail (Uimh 14 de 1923).

That a sum not exceeding £1,330 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Governor-General's Establishment (No. 14 of 1923).

The Vote represents a decrease of £246 on last year. The decrease is due to economies which have been secured in the Governor-General's Secretariat.

Mr. MacDermot

I cannot see any reason why the Dáil should accept this Estimate. The Governor-General receives a salary of £2,000 a year out of the Central Fund. That appears to me to remunerate him amply for the duties he performs and to cover all reasonable expenses. Those duties have been reduced to a very modest limit indeed, and are of a kind that could be performed by a junior clerk. Even such a formal matter as the representation of his Majesty the King on the occasion of the reception of new diplomatic representatives from foreign countries has been undertaken by the President of the Executive Council, and the Governor-General has been, to that extent, relieved. I can see no excuse for proposing that, in addition to the more than adequate salary of £2,000 a year, the Dáil should accept an Estimate amounting to a further £2,000 for alleged necessary expenses. I frankly confess that I do not regard the present occupant of the post of Governor-General as having been happily selected. I have expressed the view before, and I have no hesitation in expressing it again, that it would be much more valuable——

An Ceann Comhairle

Neither the functions of the Governor-General nor the selection of the person to occupy that office arises on this Vote, which deals only with the establishment of the Governor-General.

Mr. MacDermot

Bowing to your ruling, I shall say nothing as to whether a more suitable type of Governor-General could have been secured than the one we actually have, but I am entitled to point out that, in proportion to the duties which the present Governor-General is asked to perform, the establishment which the Government is requesting us to provide for him is nothing short of grotesque. I defy anybody to suggest a reason why the Governor-General should be provided, at the public expense, with a private secretary, a chaplain, a motor car, an official residence and the wherewithal to keep up the official residence, in view of the fact that out of the Central Fund he has a salary of £2,000 a year. I think that, in the condition in which the country is, with the type of Budget that we have before us and with the necessity that we are under of imposing taxes on the foodstuffs of the poorest of the poor, there can be no excuse for asking the House to accept this Estimate. I submit that the country is receiving and is likely to receive no sort of value for the Estimate which the Government is attempting to push through this House.

General Mulcahy

If it is necessary to provide this expensive establishment for the Governor-General, I should like to know what work the Governor-General proposes to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

That question does not arise on the Estimate.

Mr. MacDermot

What work do the private secretary and the chaplain do?

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputies wish to raise the question of the status of the Governor-General—I am not suggesting that they should—it might be possible to do so on the next Vote.

General Mulcahy

We are asked on this Vote to provide the money for keeping up an establishment around a particular person in the State. That person is a man who fought in 1916. We had a national commemoration of 1916 on Easter Sunday last. Am I in order in asking why the Governor-General was not present at that ceremony?

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not in order. The duties and functions of the Governor-General may not be debated on this Vote.

General Mulcahy

Do the actions of the Governor-General arise on this Vote?

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. MacDermot

Do the functions of the chaplain and chauffeur arise on this Vote?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might debate whether these officers are necessary.

General Mulcahy

Do the actions of the private secretary arise on this Vote?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should indicate to the Chair the item in the Vote which he proposes to discuss.

General Mulcahy

I propose to discuss the amount of money provided for the private secretary. I should like to know whether any of the secretary's time in recent months was taken up in correspondence with the President arising out of an invitation to attend the Easter Week ceremony, whether public money was used in refusing to attend a ceremony of that particular kind, and whether any of the moneys used were expended in explaining that the Governor-General did not intend to go to that ceremony because of the Fianna Fáil flag day to be held on Easter Sunday, turning what was supposed to be a national commemoration into a Party matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must realise that he has come back to the point which he was prevented from discussing.

General Mulcahy

I am sorry, but it is certainly a mysterious Vote. I should like to know whether any of the money in this Vote is intended for the purpose of providing perpetual night around the Governor-General's establishment?

Mr. Belton

Could the House be informed how the Governor-General spends £40 on telephone messages. I have two telephones and they do not cost me that.

Mr. Donnelly

You are not a Governor-General.

Mr. Belton

Thank God, I am not.

The President

I sympathise to a considerable extent with the view of Deputies who think that, under present conditions, we can hardly defend the request to the Dáil to pass this Vote, but I would point out to them that there is an article in the Constitution which, until removed—if Deputies on the opposite side assist, I do not see any reason why it should not be removed——

General Mulcahy

That has nothing to do with the establishment.

The President

It has. The last line says: "and suitable provision shall be made out of those funds for the maintenance of his official residence and establishment."

Mr. MacDermot

What is "suitable"?

The President

That is the question. When we were in Opposition, and when the statutory salary was being accepted by the then occupant of the office of Governor-General, there was a further provision—this was in the year 1931-32, before we came into office—which brought the total amount to £25,655. We used to complain that that provision was quite unnecessary. We have reduced that expenditure considerably. The expenditure proposed now is only one-sixth of what was provided then. If Deputies on the opposite side think that we are still making unnecessary provision, I should like them to argue that question. Our attitude is that we have reduced the provision to the absolute minimum whilst the office exists, and that, if there is to be any further diminution, the proper thing to do is to abolish the office altogether. As I was about to say when interrupted a few moments ago, if Deputies on the opposite benches assist, I think we might be able to arrange that in the coming year we would not have this Vote at all.

Mr. MacDermot

How is that?

The President

If I could get any indication from Deputies on the opposite benches that their heart is behind their statements, I might come to the Dáil and explain it in full. But I am afraid that the criticism we are getting from the opposite benches on this matter is not too sincere, and that, if those who are criticising the amount we are providing were over here, they would be moving a Vote, as in 1931-32, which would mean altogether an expenditure of six times the amount we are proposing. Again I throw out the challenge that if they want to eliminate this Vote altogether, they should indicate their desire now to see the office abolished. This is a very appropriate time to do it.

Mr. MacDermot

May I intervene for one moment? I would like to make it plain that the attitude of the Opposition, in case there should be any ambiguity, is not that we are in favour of the abolition of the post of the King's representative in this country, but that we are in favour of reducing the financial provision for that representative to a figure that is more in proportion to the duties which he is allowed to perform under the present Government.

The President

I thought there was not a great deal of sincerity about the criticism with regard to the amount provided. Now we see exactly what we have. The point is this, that unless the Governor-General performs functions other than he does, and which it is the policy of the present Government he should not perform, and, I think also the desire of the people of the country that he should not perform—that unless that is completely changed and we are to go back to the position of having something like a Viceroy—the Opposition will not vote for what would be regarded as suitable provision in the Estimate.

Mr. MacDermot

Have we not something like a Viceroy at present?

An Ceann Comhairle

Not for discussion on this Vote.

The President

I do not know. I would like to hear the Deputy expanding that statement and indicating exactly what he means.

Mr. MacDermot

We have a Viceroy, translated into Gaelic.

The President

I do not know. I would not pretend to be so proficient in the language as to be able to say exactly whether that word represents the same idea in Irish that "Viceroy" represents in English. My own belief is that it does not. The point is, we have reduced this Vote to the minimum that we can reduce it while leaving the position stand. The next step to reduction would be to abolish the office altogether. If any Deputies on the opposite side wish to assist us in that, I would be very glad to hear from them. Deputy MacDermot indicates something quite different.

Mr. Morrissey

Can the President not do it without our assistance?

The President

I think I shall have to.

Mr. MacDermot

When?

The President

I should like very much to get your assistance in the doing of it, to share the merit. We would not like to be selfish in matters of this sort and to have all the credit of doing these things. Deputies on the opposite benches might like to participate. However, from what Deputy MacDermot said they have shown no desire to do so. I do not like to say any more at the moment, than that I hope the present Government will be in office when the next Estimate like this comes round again. I expect it will be in office. I expect the policy which we have adopted will continue to receive the support of the majority of the people, and if it does, I do not think we will be moving this Estimate. I agree with Deputies on the opposite benches that, in present circumstances —although the Constitution as it stands makes it necessary—you can hardly make a case, or give any good reason for a continuance of the Vote. For this year it is necessary, and I support it.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 44; Níl, 23.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Cleary, Mícheál.
• Concannon, Helena.
• Cooney, Eamonn.
• Crowley, Timothy.
• Daly, Denis.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Donnelly, Eamon.
• Dowdall, Thomas P.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Gibbons, Seán.
• Goulding, John.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Kehoe, Patrick.
• Kelly, James Patrick.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Kissane, Eamonn.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Maguire, Conor Alexander.
• Moane, Edward.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
• O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
• O'Dowd, Patrick.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Pearse, Margaret Mary.
• Rice, Edward.
• Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Martin.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Níl

• Belton, Patrick.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Bourke, Séamus.
• Burke, James Michael.
• Coburn, James.
• Curran, Richard.
• MacDermot, Frank.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Morrisroe, James.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• Desmond, William.
• Dolan, James Nicholas.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Keating, John.
• O'Mahony, The.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Redmond, Bridget Mary.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Rowlette, Robert James.

Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Little and Smi th; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.

Question declared carried.