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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 1936

Vol. 64 No. 4

Private Deputies' Business. - Problem of Partition.

I have the honour to move:—

That in the opinion of the Dáil the Government has not given adequate attention to the problem of Partition.

In putting forward this motion for the approval of the House, I have no desire to strain unduly the case against the Government. I realise the immense difficulties of the question. I realise that those difficulties would have actually been increased and not diminished by the adoption of some of the suggestions that have been pressed upon the Government by certain Northern Nationalists and by certain supporters of their own. I realise, moreover, that a Government cannot be expected to go far in advance of public opinion, and that if it attempts to do so it can only fail and probably do more harm than good. I realise that the task of abolishing Partition is by no means a task that can be accomplished by a Government alone. Individuals, organisations all through the country, have to take a part in it if it is to be successfully achieved. Therefore, I am not proposing, as I have said, to strain unduly the case against the Government. But, on the 1st March, 1933, almost immediately after the last general election, we unanimously agreed in this House to the proposition that a reunion of the Irish nation, founded on goodwill, should be the primary object of Government policy and that every other constitutional issue should be subordinated thereto. That was nearly four years ago. Some time in the course of the next year we shall have another general election, and I think it is not unfair or unreasonable to inquire whether the Government have lived up either to the letter or to the spirit of that resolution which they accepted.

Now, I hope that it is not necessary for me in this House to stress the evil of Partition. Partition is, in my view, an evil, not only form our point of view, but from the point of view of all concerned, something that does harm to everybody that is affected by it. The President has told us that when he wants guidance on some issue of national importance he finds the best plan is to look into his heart. I presume that that procedure is open to all the rest of us and, even though he may regard my heart as a some what denationalised and cosmopolitanised organ, I venture to look into it in connection with this matter, and, looking into it, I find this—that while I can and do forgive spoliation, oppression, religious persecution in the past, I can hardly reflect on Partition without a kind of rage, a rage that I have some difficulty in preventing from mastering my reason and my judgment. If I did not think that I had so prevented it, naturally. I should not be taking the liberty of addressing the House, on this problem to-night. But I think anyone is living in a fool's paradise who imagines that the people of this country will ever reconcile themselves to Partition or that good relations between the Irish Free State and Great Britain will ever be possible on the basis of Partition. And some of these admirers of the President across the water who are talking as if we could all kiss and be friends provided that a Republic for 26 Counties were set up in external association with the British Empire, are simply ignorant of the fundamentals of the situation. Partition is vital to the whole question of our relations with Great Britain. Not only is it an evil from our point of view; it is an evil from Great Britain's point of view, because it is obviously of the greatest value and importance to her to secure the friendship of the Free State if she possibly can. Such friendship would be valuable in peace and perhaps even more valuable in case of war. And it is not only an evil from the British point of view, but it is an evil from the Northern Ireland point of view, and not from the point of view of Northern Nationalists alone. The spirit of bigotry and ascendancy is an accursed thing. It degrades and demoralises not only the people who are the victims of it, but those who are actually exercising the ascendancy. I am not sure that in the long run and in the last analysis the case of those who are exercising the ascendancy is not the more pitiable of the two. I hope, then, that I need say no more to emphasise the vital importance of this issue to all concerned.

I may as well put my cards upon the table at once in case anyone should suppose I have some magic formula up my sleeve for resolving this question, and I may say immediately that in my view there is only one way of getting rid of Partition and that is to gain the goodwill of the Northern Unionists. If that sounds like a truism, all I can say is that it is a truism which is neglected in 99 per cent. of the utterances made upon this subject. And if it sounds like telling a man the way to catch a bird is to put salt on its tail, I can only say that later on in my speech I hope to develop the point and to show that the gaining of the goodwill of the Northern Unionists is not necessarily an impossibility.

Before I come to that, I want to deal with certain heresies which seem to me to be blocking the way and confusing the public mind. One of these heresies is that it is impossible for anybody to do anything effective, that we must just let matters drift, that we must trust to justice being done in the long run automatically. I find that theory expounded in a book otherwise brilliant and a book that I would like to see every member of this House reading and still more to see every member of the British Parliament reading, and that is Professor George O'Brien's new book called "The Four Green Fields," which concerns itself with this very problem. There is much that is true and wise and eloquent in that book, but I personally think that his conclusions are altogether too pessimistic, and that the notion that we should adopt a fatalistic attitude to this problem is a wrong notion, because if we leave the question alone I have the greatest fear that the general drift will not be towards the abolition of Partition but, on the contrary, away from it.

The second heresy to which I am referring is that this is not primarily an Irish problem at all, that it is a problem of which the solution lies in the hands of Great Britain, and only of Great Britain, that the British Government could abolish Partition to-morrow if they wanted to and that nobody else can do anything about it. That I regard as a most mischievous fallacy. My view is that, supposing the British Government were to-morrow to withdraw British forces from Northern Ireland, to leave the Northern Unionists to depend upon their own resources, the Northern Unionists would defend themselves and defend the territory they occupy with the same embittered resistance we see being exhibited at the present moment in Madrid. But that is a contingency which it is hardly necessary to consider because no British Government could afford to do anything of the kind. Any British Government that proposed to do such a thing would, in my view, lose the support of almost everybody in Great Britain. It is one thing to say that the British created this problem. They did. If the British had never sent these people over here hundreds of years ago, the problem of partition would not exist. It is another thing to think of these people now merely as invaders and intruders, and it is to shut one's eyes to the fundamental facts of human nature to suppose that, with us professing a desire for separation and the Northern Unionists professing devotion to the Crown and the Commonwealth, a British Government could take the course of handing the Northern Unionists over to us against their will.

I think, however, it is important to consider to what extent, if any, the British people and the British Government could assist us in this matter. It is sometimes said that a great deal would be accomplished if they would even stop subsidising the North. The answer to that is, in the first place, that the Northerners would deny that they were being subsidised. The financial arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland are not simple, and it is not easy to say whether in fact the North is being subsidised or not; but let us suppose that, by British action, the Northern Government was reduced to a state of financial collapse, what would be the consequence? Is there any reason to suppose that the result of that would be the entry of the North into a united Ireland? I suggest that quite the contrary would happen, that if for some reason of that nature the Northern Ireland Government were to break down, the result would be that the Northerners would go back, lock, stock and barrel to Westminster and Northern Ireland would simply become a part of England. I think we should, therefore, put out of our minds that anything useful to us can be expected from the British on these lines.

It has been urged by Professor O'Brien that the impotence of the British in this matter is so complete that at no time during the whole of the Home Rule controversy were they really in a position to deliver the goods as regards Northern Ireland. I believe that to be a misconception, and I speak not without some first-hand experience. From 1909 to 1914—in fact, from 1905 to 1914—I took a fairly active part in Home Rule propaganda in Great Britain. I spoke in many debates on the subject, and I spoke on many platforms on the subject, and I was by no means under the impression then, and am by no means under the impression now, that, provided the fear of complete separation could have been got over, there would have been any reluctance on the part of the British electorate as a whole to compel Northern Ireland to accept a Dominion of Ireland, and to play their part in the Dominion of Ireland. The cause of the difficulties that arose during that period was the House of Lords. But for the ability of the House of Lords, under the Parliament Act, to hold up the Home Rule Bill for two years and but for, as it seems to me, the quite unwarranted timidity both of the Liberal Government and, to be frank, of the Irish Nationalist Party on the subject of applying any sort of coercion to the Northern Unionists, I believe that no such physical force movement could have been gathered together as was gathered together during those years and as proved so fatal to the interests of the Home Rule Bill.

It has been said, and with a great deal of truth, that the loyalty of which the Northern Unionists so often boast is a conditional loyalty and that on various occasions they have threatened, if something was done of which they disapproved, to discard that loyalty altogether, but I think that argument is to be received with certain reservations. In point of fact, Catholic Emancipation was passed in spite of such threats, the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland was accomplished in spite of such threats, and Ulster "loyalty," if that is the proper word for it, still continued. I think we may draw the inference from those facts that the Ulstermen are not always prepared for quite such desperate deeds as they profess to be prepared for, and that if the passing of the Home Rule Bill into law could have been accomplished in the ordinary way, and within the ordinary time in which the passing of a measure of capital importance into law used to be accomplished under the British Parliament, the Bill could have been put into force without very much difficulty. The reason I lay stress upon the proposition that the Northern Irish Unionists cannot be guaranteed always to have matters their own way is this—that I do think, given the necessary conditions, the British Government and the British people could exercise a great deal of what I might call moral compulsion on Northern Ireland.

At present they are treated by most of the British politicians and by the British popular Press as heroes. They are constantly being patted on the back and praised for their loyalty, and we can hardly blame them for being willing to accept these assurances at their face value. At the very moment when they were compiling what the late Lord Asquith called "a grammar of anarchy," when they were threatening every sort of treason and rebellion in connection with the Home Rule Bill, they were being assured by men of light and leading in England, by the most prominent front-rank politicians, that they were noble patriots showing a spirit of devotion and attachment to the Crown and Empire. Who can be surprised if, under these circumstances, their die-hard attitude was persisted in? But it is not at all so clear that if the gilt came off the gingerbread and if they ceased to be regarded as heroes in Great Britain, if they began even to be regarded as unreasonable in Great Britain, if they found themselves meeting with a chilly reception in exalted circles—it is, I say, far from clear that in these circumstances their resistance to any sort of accommodation would be as embittered as it has been in other circumstances.

I suggest then, Sir, that while Great Britain has not got the power to solve this problem for us, it has the power to give us some assistance in the matter if we make that assistance possible by establishing the preliminary conditions necessary for it to take effect. But, substantially, this question of curing the evil of Partition is our own job and nobody else's job. If we are to undertake it, the first essential is that we shall be in earnest about it, that we shall really want the reunion of Ireland on a voluntary basis, and not want it in the sense of somebody who has bought a sweep ticket and, having bought that ticket, thinks that his part is done and that he need only sit back and wait for Fortune to smile upon him. We have got to do something more than merely express a wish to see Partition ended. Our desire has got to be an efficient desire. He who wills the end must also will the means. What I want to ask the House to consider is whether we have really faced the facts in that respect, whether we have realised what is involved in the reunion of Ireland, whether we want the reunion of Ireland on that basis, taking with it all that is logically involved in it, and whether we are prepared to do what is necessary in order to work towards that unity. If we are not, it is idle to say that we are in favour of abolishing Partition; we are simply Partitionists ourselves although we are concealing the fact from ourselves.

We often complain, Sir, and with justice, that British statesmen have shown a lack of vision in their dealings with this country. Are we quite sure that that reproach does not apply to us in relation to our dealings with the Northern Unionists? Does not the reproach of lack of vision mean that the statesman you are reproaching has failed to put himself in the place of those whom he desires to conciliate, has failed to try and see difficulties as they see them, has failed to make allowances for the sentiments that he must know them to possess? There has been an occasion in history when real progress was made in establishing co-operation between Northern Protestants and the rest of the population of this island, and that was during the period when Wolfe Tone was founding the society of United Irishmen. It is worth considering for a minute just what Tone did. Tone made friends with, and gained the confidence of, the most enlightened, the most broadminded, the most tolerant men he could find in Northern Ireland. He engaged them in a fight against a corrupt ascendancy, a fight for the liberties of Parliament and the realities of democracy, and he met with unexampled success in eliminating the prejudices that had hitherto prevented the two stocks that inhabited this island from co-operating with each other and that success was interrupted by what? It was interrupted by the outbreak of war between France and England. The first result of that outbreak of war was that those who wished to change the established régime in any way came to be suspected of treason and disloyalty, and in their fear of France and in their eagerness to support their own country in time of war, many men slipped back into acquiesence, at any rate, with the status quo, whereas others, Wolfe Tone among them, slipped forward into open rebellion. Those occurrences broke up, for good and all, the co-operation that had been established.

If we are to win the Northern Unionists to-day, it will not be by fussing after them, with the futility and lack of dignity that a certain number of British politicians and publicists are fussing after us. We have really got to win their confidence. We have got to turn their thoughts away from the worse things that now occupy them towards the better things that might occupy them. We have got to enlist them, just as Tone did, in a fight against something that is worth fighting. We have got to enlist them in a fight against poverty, in a fight against class hatred, in a fight against racial hatred, in a fight against war, in a fight against all the evil things that afflict humanity. In other words, Sir, the way to gain the goodwill of the Northern Unionists is, first of all, to gain the goodwill of the best among them, the broadest-minded among them, all those who are most free from race hatred, and those who realise the evil, as many in the North do realise the evil, of the ascendancy spirit, who realise that it is a deplorable state of things that a third of their own population should be despised and hated by the other two-thirds, and constantly in an attitude of revolt against the State.

I do not believe it is at all impossible, if we take the right measures, if we cultivate the right frame of mind, to gain the confidence of the best among the Northern Unionists, and, having gained their confidence, to give them a chance to extend their influence in the North and to win over others, until in the end we have the confidence of the bulk of the Northern Unionists.

But, Sir, if we are going to embark upon that task, there are certain obstacles that have first to be removed. Now on this matter I ask Deputies to reason things out for themselves. I ask them to believe that I am not trying to force upon them ready-made notions; that I do not approach this matter as one eager to shove, for example, Imperialism down their throats on the excuse of getting rid of Partition. I ask them to judge what I am saying on its merits; to try to exercise the vision that I have suggested is necessary if this problem is to be solved; to try and look at things through the eyes of a reasonable Northern Unionist, of a man who does dislike race hatred, but who wishes to be reassured about our outlook and about our intention. I imagine that if the President was having an interview with such a reasonable Northern Unionist, and if he asked this Northern Unionist why he objected to coming into a union with us, our friend from the North might say: "Well now, Mr. President, first of all we Northerners are generally credited with being materialists, so I suppose you will permit me to deal with economic questions at the start. We are concerned for the future of our shipbuilding industry, and for the future of our linen industry. Just what do you propose with regard to them? In the event of your separating from the British Commonwealth, have you any market to offer us for either one or the other? If not, how are you proposing to find employment for the many thousands of people who depend upon those industries? Again, as regards our agriculture, have you any alternative to the British market to offer us in regard to our agriculture?" I hope, when the President comes to reply to this Motion, he will indicate what reassurance he is in a position to offer to Northern Unionists about such matters as these.

There are, no doubt, some other economic difficulties. We have created certain small industries and certain not so small industries—here in Southern Ireland, which might perhaps be imperilled by competition from the North if the boundary were to be suddenly removed. I personally do not believe that any such obstacle as that could be a fatal obstacle. A way could always be found to do equity as between any industries in our own present area and industries in the Northern area that might conceivably compete with them, but I do think that if we are in earnest about this question of Partition we should bear matters like these in mind; that when we are setting up new enterprises in the Irish Free State we ought to consider whether similar enterprises exist in the North; and we ought on the whole, to prefer setting up industries that would not suffer by competition from the North if Partition were to be abolished.

Turning from economic matters, about which it is not necessary to say very much because their importance is so obvious, let us think of other substantial obstacles that stand in the way. The first that immediately suggests itself is republicanism. I cannot help feeling all the sadder about republicanism being an obstacle because I honestly think that republicanism is a sham. I do not say that with any desire to be offensive; I cannot see how you can make it out to be anything except a sham. A republic for 32 counties is obviously impossible. A republic for 26 counties is possible, but the Government have not the smallest intention of declaring it and of facing its economic consequences, and so far as I know practically nobody wants it. The two people in Ireland, I think, who come nearest to wanting it are Professor Tierney and myself, because we think that the moral effect might be so good as to make up for the immediate economic effects. The only other sort of possible republic is a 26 counties republic within the Empire if such a thing is conceivable, and so far as I can see, that kind of republic would satisfy no republican feeling in this country. So far as there is any republican feeling in this country it is based on the idea that the British Empire is immoral, and that we ought not to be tangled up with it in any way, and especially not in its foreign policy or in its wars, and I cannot conceive of any meaning for a republic within the British Empire unless it is a republic that is going to be tangled up in British foreign policy and in British wars. Therefore, as I say, republicanism seems to me to be a sham, and I feel all the sadder that the profession of republicanism—for it seems to me to be nothing more—should be there to constitute an obstacle, as it does, to union with Northern Ireland.

I have often said before in this House, and I think it worth repeating again, that the mere presence in office in the Irish Free State of a non-republican Government is not enough; that as long as there is any substantial Party professing republicanism in this country, whether in power or out of power, we cannot make any real headway towards gaining the goodwill of the North. Therefore, I am not interested in this as a question of turning anybody out of office or anybody else into office. I am interested in it as a matter of what public opinion in the country is, and our task is to lead public opinion in the right direction.

The next obstacle is the obstacle of Gaelicisation. I have always had the greatest reluctance to talk about the Irish language, and for this reason—that I think no part of the national movement during the last quarter of a century has evoked more unselfish idealism than has the revival of the Irish language, and I have the greatest respect for the men who have made it a labour of love to learn the Irish language, and to seek to revive whatever may be revived of Gaelic culture. Therefore, although I believe Gaelicisation to be a profound mistake, I speak about it with the same reluctance as I would speak if I were attacking a man's religion, but I am obliged to speak about it in connection with Partition because there is no shutting our eyes to the fact that the Northern Unionists will not have the Irish language rammed down their throats and they will not come into a union with us if compulsory Irish is to be forced upon them or if they are to be barred from every sort of advancement by reason of their lack of the Irish language. Now, I am in favour of gaining every scrap of culture that we can gain from the Irish language. I am in favour of gathering everything that can be gathered in the way of Irish folklore. I am in favour of enriching our civilisation on that side of it, but I am not in favour of making the Gaelic side monopolise our civilisation. I believe that that plan is founded on a complete misconception. I believe that the man who argues for a Gaelic Ireland is arguing against an Irish Ireland. I know that the notion of Gaelicising the whole of Ireland would have been detestable—was detestable— to Daniel O'Connell; would have been detestable to Wolfe Tone.

Certainly.

Certainly, it would. Search the whole of Wolfe Tone's writings and you will not find one word in favour of reviving the Irish language.

Not against it.

Yes, by inference. By inference, you find a great deal against it, because a man who was so wrapt up in the revival of the Irish nation as Wolfe Tone was, and who sacrificed so much for that ideal, would hardly have refrained from devoting any energy at all to Gaelicising the country unless he had deliberately rejected the idea of Gaelicising the country. The whole of his dealings with the Northern Protestants and with the more reasonable members of the Ascendancy are completely inconsistent with the idea of Gaelicising the country. Equally, I believe that that idea would have been abhorrent to Parnell. In any case, however, even apart from the authority of such men as these, it seems to me to stand out that Gaelicisation and the abolition of Partition are inconsistent ideas. Can we really not adjust our notions of reviving Irish civilisation, so far as it can be revived—can we not adjust those notions in such a way as to make them consistent with the campaign for the unity of Ireland? I think we can, and I am supported in that idea by the testimony of several friends of mine who are among the best Irish scholars in this country, and I speak about this matter with less trepidation than I otherwise should because of my knowledge that my opinions are shared by several of the best Irish scholars in this country who happen to be my friends. It is quite possible to get whatever is of value out of the Irish language without using the Irish language in such a way as to narrow our whole outlook and impoverish our whole civilisation. We have made, in my opinion, the English language our native tongue. It has become for us an instrument of incalculable value for impressing our ideas on the whole world. I believe in the vitality and the energy of the Irish genius. I believe in its power of expansion. I believe in its power of affecting others, and I believe the English language is a most precious instrument for enabling us to do it. I cannot agree that the epic cycles of Cuchullain and Fionn Machumall can ever be any substitute for the riches of literature that you find, say, in the ancient classics or in the English language or the French language. I believe that we are asking too much of the Irish language—more than it is fair to ask of it. The popular argument of the moment is that we can use it as a protection against the assault of undesirable foreign ideas — of Communist ideas, for example. Now, Heaven help us if we have to cower behind the barrier of a language in order to resist the inroad of Communism, or any other "ism." Communism took its birth in Germany and it spread into Russia in spite of the Russian language. It spread into China in spite of the Chinese language. It spread into Mexico and Spain in spite of the Spanish language, and if we did not take other methods to make the soil of this country unfruitful for Communism, it would spread here in spite of the Irish language.

Who makes that claim with regard to language?

I have seen it made in many speeches.

Well, I regret that I cannot quote any particular speech, but I should be surprised if there are not many Deputies in this House who can recollect seeing speeches reported in the papers where it was urged that an extra argument of great power had been found for making Irish the spoken and the written tongue in this country, and that that was to preserve us against the danger of Communism and other pagan ideas from foreign countries.

I repeat, Sir, that I have absolutely no hostility to the Gaelic revival. On the contrary, I have the greatest admiration for those who devoted their labours to it and for those who devoted so much self-sacrificing idealism to it, but I do insist that if we are serious about this question of Partition, we must examine just how far we can afford to go in the matter of Gaelicisation. I do suggest that, in proceeding upon the lines that many of the enthusiasts wish to proceed, we are not only setting out on a road that must end in the impoverishment of our own education and of our own minds, but that we are also setting up a quite unnecessary barrier to reunion with the North. What, then, is the fundamental character of this problem of reunion? I suggest that, fundamentally, it is a racial problem. It has been suggested that there is no great difference of race between the North and the South, and I have no objection to admitting that, if you took a member of the Northern Ireland Parliament and took a specimen of his blood and analysed it for racial strains, you might find that the result differed very little from an analysis of the blood of a member of this House.

That is not the point, however. The racial problem must be considered to exist where one section of the community feels itself to be distinct from the rest, where it has a different historical bias, a different outlook, different loyalties, different traditions, and it is, of course, exacerbated when you have a difference of religion that keeps alive the difference of racial feeling. I have always held that this problem is not a religious problem, it is a racial problem and we ought to overcome racial feelings of that kind by ceasing to be racial ourselves. In other words, not to be wedded to a narrow uniformity, but to be willing to harbour the idea of an Ireland rich in diversities; not to be shocked at the notion—as some people would be shocked at the notion—that if Partition were to be abolished to-morrow we would have 45 new members of the Dáil from Northern Ireland and 30 of them would be from what has hitherto been known as the Ascendancy Party and would be devoted supporters of the connection with Great Britain. They would be different from us in their outlook on many subjects; if we were going to have them here in order to trample on them and to insult them we would be far better without them. There is not the slightest advantage in having a solid and embittered minority in our community. If we really care about Partition, we should want to have these people here in spite of and even because of their differences from ourselves and we should delight in seeing the State enriched by that difference in racial outlook and character.

The argument that one puts forward in this matter is extremely similar to what one was used in putting forward years ago to the British about Home Rule. One used to ask, has not the British Empire got that width that it can harbour any differences? May not the Irish nation develop on Irish lines? Is the British Empire so poor and so intolerant a thing that it cannot tolerate that sort of diversity? And I put forward that sort of argument here and now to the people who are putting barriers in the march of this nation. I claim that the people who are really putting barriers in the march of this nation are the people who follow policies that are inconsistent with a union with the North; people who cannot bear the idea of taking the Northern Unionists in on equal terms and creating an Ireland one and indivisible that has as much room for their ideas as it has for our ideas.

I have said, and I do most sincerely believe that if this problem is going to be solved other parts of the community besides the Government must take their share in solving it. I think it is for the Government to give a lead. I think that putting the Government's record at its very best it cannot be said that it has given any sort of lead during the past four years in directing and moulding public opinion towards the abolition of Partition. But others must do their share as well as the Government. I noticed the other day that the President addressed a body of the old I.R.A. It appears to me that on this matter the old I.R.A. could do a great deal. I decline to believe that the old I.R.A. are fairly represented by the utterances of their principal spokesmen. Although I did not support the Sinn Féin movement and do not believe that the Sinn Féin movement was, on balance, of benefit to this country, even so I cannot imagine the old I.R.A. to be as selfish, tyrannical and greedy as would appear from the utterances of some of their principal spokesmen. The President lately suggested that they should turn their efforts towards the learning of the Irish language and the spreading of the Irish language. I think that was trying them rather high. After all, the Irish language is a very difficult language to learn. I think my suggestion is a better one. It is something they can do more easily and something that would be of greater value—that is that they should devote themselves to spreading the principles of toleration and goodwill throughout the country, and that they should try not to antagonise Northern Unionists, but to make friends with them and to win their confidence.

We cannot overcome the barrier of Partition if we allow ourselves to be pessimistic about it. Realists we must be but faint-hearted, no, and I honestly believe that there is no reason to be faint-hearted. Greater difficulties than this have been overcome by other nations in the past and these difficulties can be overcome by us. It is necessary that if we are to overcome them we should have an abundance of faith, hope and charity —the sort of faith that moves mountains, the sort of hope that never degenerates either into despair or presumption and the sort of charity that is embodied in the least regarded of Christian commandments —"Little children, love one another."

I second the motion. Although many months have passed since the motion was put on the Order Paper, I think that the present is, perhaps, a more opportune time to discuss it than last spring. The present Session of the Dáil will, in all probability, be called upon to make the most important decisions since the establishment of the Irish Free State in regard to the future of Ireland. The decision which we may make here later this Session will decide, certainly for our time, and probably for generations, whether the unity of Ireland can be brought about in a reasonable time, or whether Partition may last for all time. It is, therefore, of importance that Deputies and those they represent should consider the position of the Dáil and of the Government of the Irish Free State towards the people and the Government of Northern Ireland. The Partition of this country began in hostility, and there is great danger of its being continued, after the disappearance of hostility, because of indifference, or more likely negligence. I wish to draw the attention of the Government to the need for keeping this problem always before them, not merely when they deal specifically with it, but when they deal with any other problem in regard to the Irish Free State. I think this House and the people it represents are unanimous in one thing, and perhaps in one thing only, and that is the desire to have the Partition of Ireland ended as soon as possible. I am sure there is no Deputy who would think of offering an opinion to the contrary, or who could even point to one whom he represents who would express a contrary opinion. I think that is the unanimous opinion of the people and of the Parliament of the Irish Free State. While it is not easy to speak with confidence, I think there are many people in Northern Ireland who, while they do not express that opinion openly, deep down in their hearts wish to see Partition ended, people who look with hope for such an attitude on the part of the Irish Free State as would induce them to join their fortunes in Ireland as a whole. It is not easy to speak with confidence as to how far that feeling exists in Northern Ireland, but I believe it is more than is realised. In reading the report of the proceedings of the recent Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis, one was struck by the fact that the two main objects of that Party, as far as one could judge from the outside, were the unity of Ireland and the independence of Ireland. These are aims in which I think most of us, probably all of us, join, though we may have some slightly different views as to their meaning. There are obstacles to unity, but there are few, if any, obstacles to independence, though we might not all agree as to what is meant by the word "independence"; whether it means independence in fact and in reality, or something in name. In dealing with these two demands, which were put forward by members of his Party, the President pledged himself and his Government to do everything in their power to solve them. One member of his Party, Mr. MacDevitt, from County Donegal, remarked that it was going to be more difficult to achieve the country's unity than its independence. I suggest that the independence of Ireland can never be achieved without unity being first achieved; and that the nominal independence of a part of this country, prior to the establishment of unity, would render unity impossible for the future. I wish to press upon the House and on the Government that of the two aims unity is by far the more important. I do not want to get into a controversy on that. Many people believe that we have at present independence in all or almost all essentials. The independence of a fragment of the country is something to be looked upon with horror by good Irishmen, as making permanent Partition inevitable. The President made many wise remarks during the course of the debate. He stated that Partition could not be abolished by unilateral action, that the abolition of Partition must be by bilateral action. I do not think that the President went on to ask who was the second party to bilateral action.

Deputy MacDermot spoke of the position of Great Britain towards this country. I should like to confine myself to consideration of the affairs of the people in Ireland because I believe that if this country desired to end Partition and to establish unity, no English statesman, no English politician, and probably no Englishman would raise a voice against the two parts of the country joining as one nation. In my view, the second party to be considered in this question is Northern Ireland. I do not think the President or many of his followers would suggest that unity could be brought about at present by force. Therefore, it must be brought about, if at all, by consent.

I should like to remind the House of one fact which is very often overlooked, and that is that the Irish Free State is Ireland, that Ireland is the Irish Free State, that it does not consist of 26 counties but of 32 counties. Nothing in our legislation has altered the clause which forms part of our Constitution and of the Treaty with the United Kingdom, that Ireland shall be known as the Irish Free State. It is true that later legislation limited the powers of the Government of the Irish Free State to certain areas, and that the powers of this Parliament are not at present exercisable in certain excluded areas, but that exclusion does not take away from the fact that Ireland is the Irish Free State, and is so identified as a geographical area. While the powers of this Parliament are not exercisable in the other area, that is a conditional and provisional arrangement, and should not be looked upon, as it is often looked upon in legislation passed in this House, in debate, in conversation and in the Press, as if it established two countries. If the Boundary Commission had reported, the boundary to be established would not have been between the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland, but "between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland."

We have no power in the excluded area, but when the Government and the President speak for Ireland they should consider the opinions of the inhabitants of that other area as a guide for their policy, as far as they can, and, to the same extent as they consider the opinions of the minority of the people under this Government. When the leader of a Party becomes head of a Government he is responsible to speak for all sections, and is no longer merely the leader of a Party. I believe the President has frequently recognised that he is responsible, not merely to those whose votes put him into the position he occupies, but to all the citizens. I have no doubt the President does consider the wishes of the minority in any national policy, but I suggest to him that he and the members of his Government have a responsibility not only to his own supporters in the South, as well as to those who did not join in sending them into their present positions, but that they have a responsibility also to those who by this unfortunate provision of the Constitution are not at present authorised to take any part in returning members to this Parliament. They have, and the President particularly, a moral responsibility in any national policy to consider those not represented here as part of the entire population of Ireland. Deputy MacDermot spoke of the President consulting his own heart. One can always consult one's own heart as to what a national policy would be. The only hope for the abolition of Partition is consent and if there is consent there must be conciliation, there must be persuasion, there must even be compromise. We should not be shy of that word "compromise." None of us can expect to get everything in this world even in matters of principle, and no business could be carried on for a week without compromise. Speaking many years ago, the President said that if a man drove a cow to the fair he did not expect to get the full price he would ask. I suggest that he should keep that in mind when dealing with this question, and, though he cannot be expected to go the whole way with minorities, he should at any rate be ready to meet them part of the way, and follow the good advice he gave the country 15 years ago.

When we consider the Government of this State, and the conduct of this State since its establishment about 15 years ago, we may ask ourselves what has the State done to attract Northern Ireland to join with us, and ask ourselves, on the other hand, what has the State done to deter Northern Ireland from joining with us. In one great respect the State has made a great achievement, which should, and I am sure does, attract the people of Northern Ireland. The Government and people of the Irish Free State, quite regardless of party, have shown their capacity to give every citizen fair play and equality in the eyes of the State. The leaders of the minority churches have recognised that frankly and repeatedly. They have recognised not only the fairness of the successive Governments here, but their generosity particularly in the matter of education. This was not I believe a mere matter of set policy with either the present Government or its predecessors. I think it was something far better: It was the natural expression of the attitude of the people of the country towards minorities; it was the natural expression of tolerance which is characteristic of the people of Ireland. The atmosphere created and the attitude maintained during those years have allayed many apprehensions which I believe were honestly felt by members of the minority in the South of Ireland, and while not sharing those apprehensions myself, I believe that they were honestly felt. I believe, too, that they have diminished and are diminishing the apprehensions felt in Northern Ireland. That is, I say, a very great achievement by this State, and one that it has every right to be proud of.

In other matters the State has not been so fortunate in its attitude towards Northern Ireland. Deputy MacDermot has dwelt at some length on these matters, and, therefore, I do not intend to take up the time of the House in emphasising the matters already referred to by him. After what he has said it is not necessary that I should say much by way of drawing attention to them because the facts are clear and the argument is obvious. It is quite clear that the attitude of Northern Ireland in the main, and until recently almost unanimously, was different from the attitude of many in the South as regards the future relations of Ireland to the British Commonwealth of Nations. When I say until recently in Northern Ireland, I am thinking of the fact that while the former minority in Northern Ireland was always Nationalist in outlook it was not definitely, at any rate until recently, declaredly Republican. It has taken that tendency lately, and personally I deplore it. There is no need to emphasise it. We know that Northern Ireland looks, for reasons to which Deputy MacDermot has referred, to the Commonwealth as the political system in which it wishes to play its part. Kin, sentiment, various loyalties, and commercial interests play their part in that. I do not suggest that anybody in Northern Ireland has smaller views of the political independence of the country than anybody in the South, for, however they may differ in opinions, most people of Northern Ireland are sturdy in maintaining their personal independence. Because of their outlook towards the Commonwealth, however, they are deterred by an attitude with which they do not sympathise, in that the outlook of our Government seems to them to be one of a life outside that Commonwealth.

Again, our economic policy here, expressed in the so-called self-sufficiency, is one which is not likely to attract the hard-headed business men of Northern Ireland, and most of the people there are hard-headed, whether business men or farmers. Self-sufficiency is not likely to attract them. Through it they see the loss of their over-seas market for their manufactures as well as for the sale of their agricultural produce. Other changes have been made here in recent times which I think also roused apprehensions in Northern Ireland. To anyone there who contemplated a union with the South, the abolition of the Second Chamber here, I think, caused a revulsion in Northern Ireland. They felt, wrongly probably—many here at any rate will say wrongly, and I do not wish to quarrel with them—that it suggested an approach to something like a dictatorship. I am not suggesting that in reality that is so, but that is the idea it created in their minds, and where you wish to attract people you have to consider not only the facts but what they may think to be the facts.

It would be a fair retort for members of the Government to make to Deputy MacDermot and myself, and to others who speak on this motion, to ask what steps we suggest they should take to put an end to Partition. Like Deputy MacDermot, I have no advice to offer the Government as to taking any precise steps, but what I do plead with them is to maintain an attitude which will be attractive rather than repellent to Northern Ireland: to consider the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland as having an effect in guiding their policy in a particular direction rather than in driving them in the opposite direction. I do not believe that unity can come at once. Neither the times nor the tempers of the people are ripe for it, but I think what is of all importance to the future of the country, North and South, is that the road to unity should not be blocked or closed. It can only be kept open by maintaining an atmosphere which will be attractive and friendly to Northern Ireland and by bearing that in mind on every matter on which the Government has to decide.

I would say to the President in conclusion that even when he does not agree with certain views put to him that these views are entitled to respect and that even prejudices, however gross these prejudices may appear to be, are entitled to consideration. I do not suggest that he should subordinate what he believed to be the policy of the majority of the country, North or South, to what he believed to be the opinion of the minority, but I do suggest that in framing a policy for the country he should give due weight to the views and even the prejudices of those in the North. The Government have it in their power to make it possible for unity to be restored. They also have it in their power to destroy all hope of unity in our time or probably for generations.

Before the President replies to this debate I want to say one or two things in connection with the motion on the paper moved by Deputy MacDermot. Candidly, I am disappointed with the speech of the mover of the motion, because if we take the phraseology of the motion itself, it seems to me that the mover, Deputy MacDermot, more or less strayed off the path into the history of Partition, though he did eventually, near the end, come to one or two suggestions as to how it might be undone. The motion reads: "That in the opinion of the Dáil the Government has not given adequate attention to the problem of Partition." I do not think Deputy MacDermot devoted as much of his speech as he might have to that particular matter. I want to say, too, that he took some rather peculiar episodes in the history of Northern Ireland in order to try and vindicate some of the arguments that he adduced here.

If I were to follow Deputy MacDermot, I am afraid I would have to cut very severely across some of his arguments. He went back to the days of Wolfe Tone and then talked about O'Connell and about Parnell. He talked about these people as if the men of these days were linked up with this big problem of Partition. Before I go any further I should like to say that there is no Deputy in this House, indeed there is nobody in Ireland I should say, who recognises or appreciates more than I do the importance of this big matter of Partition and its remedy. There is nobody who would be more sorry to do or say anything that would make the final solution of this problem, which is really the crux of Irish politics, any more difficult or in any way harder.

Deputy MacDermot talked about his interest in the Home Rule movement and he waved aside the argument which many people have been using, that this was a British-manufactured problem. He said it was not. He said that we alone have the solution of Partition in our hands. I deny that. I believe that this is a British manufactured problem. I believe that the opposition to the unity of this country is inspired by and comes from one place, and one place alone, and that is the headquarters of the British Government. If Deputy MacDermot had been in this country in 1914, when the big crisis was on with regard to Home Rule and the talk of Partition was most intense—this may perhaps convert Deputy MacDermot from the idea that we alone can solve this problem—he could have read in the Press at that time a letter from Mr. Lloyd George to the late Lord Carson. I distinctly remember that letter and so does anybody who was interested in Irish politics at the time. The letter stated: "We must see to it that, whether Ulster wills it or not, Ulster must never be allowed to merge with the rest of Ireland."

That is a totally inaccurate quotation.

In reading the motion itself, I never thought that the Deputy in moving it would have taken this line of argument. I may not be able to lay my hands on that letter but I will try, and I will submit it to Deputy MacDermot for his satisfaction. That letter was written and sent by Mr. Lloyd George to the late Lord Carson, and I remember it very distinctly because of the postscript attached to it: "Show this letter to Craig." That was the British contribution to the unity of Ireland.

Deputy MacDermot tells us to-night that we alone can and must solve this problem. I am afraid not. In 1912, when Partition was first mooted, it was only to be applicable to four counties. In 1914, just before the outbreak of the big war—Deputy MacDermot did not refer to it or to the Buckingham Palace Conference—it was increased from four to six counties. Because of the Party to which Deputy MacDermot then belonged, I assume he will have a vivid recollection of the fatal conference in St. Mary's Hall, Belfast, in 1916, when at a rigged convention a majority was got in order that it might appear to the world that the majority of the people in Northern Ireland acquiesced in the crime of Partition. Then we come to 1921. We all know that the Treaty itself had something to do with the present position.

I do not wish to say anything by way of recrimination, but I do say that, just as there is no question in Ireland to-day about which there is so much unanimity of opinion, there is no question, or hardly ever has been a question in Irish politics, about which there has been so much bungling and so much mismanagement as the question of the partition of our country. Then we come from 1921 to more recent times. We had in 1925—this is not recrimination—the Ultimate Financial Settlement and six of our counties handed over, in so far as it was possible that they might be handed over, to the British for all time. To come to more recent days even, we have had speeches delivered in the English House of Commons—and Deputy MacDermot avoided referring to this—in connection with the economic war, saying that the big political question of Partition must be considered before there could be any settlement even of this matter of economics at all. Then Deputy MacDermot tells the House that we alone are capable of a solution of this problem.

I have often wondered how it is that the proposition is always put up to the people who have thought on national lines, who still think on national lines, who still believe that this country is worth something, that there must be a compromise, and a compromise always coming from them. I do not think that there ever was a people who went further in the line of fair play and tolerance than the native Irish. I am speaking now with the utmost conviction, and I say that at no period, as far as I know, was anybody persecuted on account of race or religion by them. I never knew of that and I hope that will always be the case. I hope things will always go on in that way, because I, for one, would hate that that should ever occur in this country. Nevertheless, it is always that section of the community, the old Gaelic section, if you like, the native Irish section, if you like, who are asked to go with hat in hand to make offers of compromise. In order to satisfy what? Judging from the speeches that you hear delivered in this House, one would think that there was nothing in the Six Counties area but one homogeneous unit, called Unionism. That is not the case at all. Eliminate the City of Belfast out of the reckoning, and the entire hinterland of that city is fifty-fifty as regards population.

When you come down to more detail, I wonder does Deputy MacDermot, when talking about compromise and the rest, recognise that in the City of Belfast itself there are as many, and half as many again, people of nationalist opinion as the whole population of the City of Cork in the portion of that city which is called West Belfast? The people there have a national outlook; they have national aspirations and always had. Then we are told that the people of Southern Ireland must come along in a spirit of compromise, that they must forget all the old historic landmarks, that they must forget national fights in the past, that they must sacrifice everything, and go hat in hand to people who boast openly in their Parliament that it is a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people, and put a hallmark of sectarianism on what should be a fair and just Legislature.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Thursday, November 19th, at 3 p.m.

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