Committee on Finance. - Vote 64—Wireless Broadcasting. – Dáil Éireann (8th Dáil) – Thursday, 22 Apr 1937

Committee on Finance. - Vote 64—Wireless Broadcasting.

Mr. Traynor

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £40,874 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1938, chun na dTuarastal agus na gCostaisí eile a bhaineann le Fóirleatha Neashrangach (Uimh. 45 de 1926).

That a sum not exceeding £40,874 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for the Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926).

The amount of the Estimate for the Broadcasting Service for the year 1937-38 is £61,374, as compared with £57,700 for 1936-37, showing an increase of £3,674 mainly under sub-heads A, B and E. The extra expenditure is required principally to provide for increased staff, extension of programme hours, and additional power and lighting costs due to the increased power rating of the Athlone high power station. There is a reduction of £7,030 under sub-head F, but this is due to the fact that last year an abnormal item of £14,000 was included to provide for raising the power of the Athlone station.

The revenue from wireless receiving licences last year amounted to £52,000 approximately, showing an increase of about £8,100. Fees for advertisements and miscellaneous receipts amounted to £27,000, which shows an increase of about £3,500 compared with the previous year. The total broadcasting revenue amounted to £79,000 approximately. The direct expenditure on the Broadcasting Service out of all Votes last year amounted to about £69,200, so that revenue exceeded direct Vote expenditure by about £9,800.

The number of wireless licences issued last year was 104,000 approximately, which represents an increase of 16,800 over the previous year. It is estimated that the licences will reach the figure of 120,000 in the current financial year. The employment of special inspectors for the detection of licence defaulters has been continued and a considerable number of defaulters were prosecuted during the year. It is proposed to institute an intensive campaign against defaulters in the near future. The revenue from licence fees in the year 1937-38 is estimated at £60,000 and from advertisements, etc., at £32,000, making a total estimated revenue of £92,000.

The direct Vote expenditure during the year is estimated at £81,541, showing a surplus of £10,459. It should be borne in mind, however, that no commercial account is prepared for broadcasting as for the Post Office, and in considering total expenditure on the broadcasting service it is necessary, in addition to the direct Vote expenditure, to allow for capital charges in respect of cost of erection of stations, interest, depreciation, etc., and if full allowance is made for these charges broadcasting revenue would fall considerably short of broadcasting expenditure.

The outstanding broadcasting event last year was the increase in power of the Athlone high-power station from 60 to 100 kilowatts, which has resulted in better reception over a wider area. The power has been brought up to the limit allowed under international regulations, and the station now compares favourably with similar stations in other countries. Programme hours have been extended during the past year by 5½ hours per week, and the broadcasting hours on Sundays are now the same as on week-days. Broadcasts to schools have been extended, and a regular programme is now radiated on Monday to Friday from 2.30 p.m. to 3.0 p.m. With the further co-operation of the educational authorities it is expected that these broadcasts will form part of the curriculum of a large number of schools in the future.

The number of players in the orchestra was increased last year from 19 to 24, and it is proposed to bring the number up to 28 in the near future. The number of outside broadcasts last year was approximately 300, which shows an increase of nearly 50 per cent. on the previous year. The co-operation of local committees has been enlisted for regional broadcasts, and a good deal of talent has been discovered in the rural areas. There have been considerable developments in the broadcasting service during the past year, and the staff both on the programme and on the engineering sides has been increased. Additional equipment has been installed in the studio, and I think it may be claimed that programmes of better quality, more variety and greater interest are now being radiated. Further improvements are in contemplation, and every effort will be made during the coming year to provide still more attractive programmes.

Mr. Dillon

I must confess to mild amusement at the chagrin of the Minister when his concessions on the Postal Vote were not more enthusiastically received. The Minister will have to grow a thicker skin if he remains in the public life of this country.

Mr. Traynor

It does not cause the Minister any worry, coming from over there.

Mr. Dillon

I am glad to hear it. I was quite distressed when I saw the grief on the Minister's face. I urge strongly on the Minister that he should recover his sense of humour. None of the criticism has been levelled against him in any spirit of recrimination, and there is no necessity for introducing a note of recrimination into this discussion at all. With regard to the quality of emission from Athlone, I direct the Minister's attention to the fact that it is far from satisfactory. At the present time you can get almost any British or Continental station giving a better quality of transmission than we get from Athlone. I am not referring to the quality of the programmes. I am referring to the quality of the radiation itself. You cannot get Athlone satisfactorily on a set in this country and I do not know why. I suggest that this may be a contributing reason. I understand that in Great Britain and on the Continent, where large financial resources are available to the stations, they maintain observers at certain points around the stations, who continually check up on the quality of the transmission, and are in constant touch with the engineers in charge, and that in that way improvement can be effected. I do not think any such service is at the disposal of the engineers at our station. It may be that it would be impossible to provide full-time employment for such a body of observers; but if that is impossible, I think we ought to do something to provide the engineers in charge of transmission with a regular service of information as to the quality of the transmission at different points in the country at all times. I would be interested to hear the personal experience of other Deputies.

I most strongly press upon the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to realise that the kind of criticism levelled at his Department is constructive, and is not designed to wound his tender feelings, or to cast any reflection on the Fianna Fáil Party, or the programmes, or on any of the stock sore spots which Ministers in his position usually have. I would like to make a few suggestions with regard to the programmes. I realise the difficulty under which the Director is operating, but I feel that the programmes might be materially improved if, from time to time, we were given gramophone recitals of a set character in the evenings. It is not possible for our station to command a great symphony orchestra, but, with modern methods of reproduction, we might have good gramophone concerts for one or one and a half hours once or twice a week.

Mr. Minch

Once a week.

Mr. Dillon

Even once a week. Everyone must be catered for. It is not everyone cares for classical music. I think if we had once a week a classical concert from Athlone, a Beethoven concert, a Mozart concert or an operatic evening, people could hear a piece of good music in comfort. It has to be borne in mind that with modern gramophone resources, it is surprising to the ordinary lay ear how little difference there is between a good gramophone programme of orchestral music and a programme provided by the orchestra itself. In addition to that, I feel that, bearing in mind the limitations that our resources are subject to, we ought to consider the question of having more relays than we at present have. Ordinarily, our relays must be from Great Britain, because the expense of getting Continental relays by direct wire would be considerable and, of course, the longer the wire over which the relay comes the greater the danger of imperfection arising; but there are occasions when the British Broadcasting Corporation make a special effort and I have no doubt that by making a contribution on such an occasion from the Irish Broadcasting Station we could have the advantage of relaying these special arrangements which the B.B.C. make. For instance, I understand that Toscanini is going to give four or five concerts in London. You might not hear Toscanini on this side of the Atlantic once in five years, and I do not think it would be anything out of the way if our station opened negotiations with Great Britain to relay those concerts. I think when the B.B.C. is relaying an opera during the grand opera season at Covent Garden we might take advantage of it, for the simple reason that if we do not a great number of our people will never hear these things at all, and if we do not get these things in that way it will be quite impossible for our radio station to get them at all. If radio is to have any justification for its existence in the world at all, it ought to be to provide the ordinary people with opportunities which would be denied them but for the radio sets they have in their homes.

I was listening to Belfast one night about a year ago and I heard "Bean Dubh a' Ghleanna" sung from Belfast as well as it used to be sung 20 years ago in Ballingeary, and I was so much impressed with the quality of the traditional singing which I heard that night from Belfast that I sharpened my pencil and wrote to the Director of Broadcasting, directing his attention to this programme and asking him to find out who the artistes were, and to take an early opportunity of inviting them to perform from our station because, to be perfectly plain, I listen not infrequently to Athlone between 10.30 and 11 o'clock at night and I am told that "we are going to have an evening of gramophone ceilidhe music." Of all the deplorable and gloomy hours of ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay I ever had to listen to, that is the worst. I do not mind if people want to have a bit of a ceilidhe between 10.30 and 11 o'clock. I suppose they are just as much entitled to it as others are to be dancing a foxtrot or listening to grand opera, but I think it would be very regrettable if our station were to content itself with providing that half-hour as typical of Irish music. I have no hesitation in saying that nine evenings out of ten when that class of music is radiated, it is little short of a disgrace, whereas if traditional music of the kind I heard from Belfast were radiated early or late in the evening, it must be listened to by anybody with any appreciation of music with intense interest and with intense satisfaction, whether in this country or elsewhere. In fact, you would be proud of such an exposition of Irish music and it is not until you hear traditional music sung in that way that you realise what an exquisite thing it is.

There is no need to labour a point of that kind. The identity of these artistes must be known to the Director and officials—I do not know who they were—but I gave them the necessary information to enable them to find out who these people were. I do urge that if we are to have what is to be described as Irish music on the Athlone radio, we should not content ourselves with radiating less than the very best. Let the poor stuff be radiated by other stations which cannot claim to be the fountain head, but, from Athlone, if we desire to put out Irish music, let it not be wheezing ceilidhe band records but rather the most distinguished exponents of traditional music that can be found. Quite apart from the desirability of radiating it in the best possible way, we should bear in mind that many of these artistes who have kept alive traditional music do not reap a very golden harvest for their trouble, and, therefore, any opportunity that presents itself to the Athlone station of offering them encouragement and compensating them for their zeal should not be passed by.

The last matter I want to mention is this: I have no complaint to make against using the radio station for educational purposes, but you can overdo this business of radio programmes for national schools. Remember that in Great Britain you have about 15 stations going all the time, and if you want to use one group of stations for the schools, there is always another station operating for the public. We are spending £3,500,000 on primary education alone in this country, which is a pretty fair contribution, and if there is more money wanted for it, I am sure the Dáil will be prepared to provide it; but the money provided for broadcasting is provided for broadcasting, and not for primary education. If the State comes to the conclusion that the primary education in the country cannot be satisfactorily carried on without substantial assistance through the medium of broadcasting, let provision be made but it is not reasonable to take away from the licence-purchasing public hours of the day of entertainment which they are paying for, and which they are entitled to expect, in order to use the station for the purpose of conducting educational programmes designed exclusively for children's schools. I think there is a danger that the broadcasting authorities might be carried away by too much enthusiasm for a new plan.

Let there be moderation in this scheme and if we find that we cannot provide sufficient hours for the schools without seriously interfering with the general programmes, let us radiate the school programmes from the local stations, such as Cork and Dublin, while Athlone is radiating a general programme, or resort to some expedient of that kind which will ensure that those who pay their 10/- will have available entertainment on the radio during the hours set aside for broadcasting. It would be ungracious, I think, on the part of any Deputy who spoke on this Vote not to say that there has been undoubtedly an improvement in the administration of wireless broadcasting over the last couple of years. It is by no means perfect yet, but at least there is some evidence of enterprise and some evidence of an anxiety on the part of the Minister's wireless department to seek out suggestions and to entertain sympathetically any representations that are made.

That is all to the good, and I think it would be only right for us to recognise that, while the Director himself may do a great deal, he must depend to a certain extent on the assistance of those who are in a position to bring to his attention the opinions and requirements of the listeners. In that connection, I say my last word. If any of us were in business, and hired a half-hour of broadcasting time, our ingenuity would be taxed to devise a way of inducing those who heard the programme to write in to us and tell us what they thought of it, how it affected them, and so forth, because we would want to know what sort of value we were getting for our money. It has often occurred to me that the Broadcasting Station itself would get closer to its listeners if the Director came to the microphone at infrequent intervals, addressed his audience, told them of some of his difficulties, invited their co-operation, and assured them that, if they wrote to him, their letters would be appreciated. It is amazing the difference getting into contact with your listeners makes. Such a distinguished man as President Roosevelt has discovered that, and those who have been to America during his campaign realised that, gifted as he is with a radio personality, his power to reach people by coming to the microphone is phenomenal and the result devastating. I have no doubt we could find in the Minister's Department somebody possessed of a similar personality. The Director himself might have it. If he could see his way to consult his listeners, as President Roosevelt consulted the listeners of America, he might evoke a surprising result, and he could not fail to get a great deal of information which would be very valuable. That would, undoubtedly, create amongst the body of subscribers a much more understanding frame of mind than is at present possible.

Mr. Hogan

Quite recently a very interesting series of lectures was given over the radio, entitled, "If I Were Director of Broadcasting." Many people said very interesting things, but it was rather unfortunate that we did not hear Deputy Dillon over the air. That would demonstrate, perhaps, two things. It would possibly demonstrate the difficulties of the Radio Director, and also, possibly, give an indication why the epoch-making decision was taken not to broadcast the proceedings of the Dáil. That might be worth while, and I seriously suggest to the Director of Broadcasting that he should ask Deputy Dillon to go to the microphone and take his part in that series of interesting lectures entitled " If I were Director of Broadcasting."

I do not find any difficulty in effectively getting Radio Athlone. I find it easy to get very good reception. I regret that I do not know very much about classical music, but I am satisfied that the programmes are as good as can be got in the circumstances under which the station is conducted and the amount of money available for producing programmes. What I mainly rose to ask was: What is the policy of the Minister and of the Post Office regarding the sponsored programme? Quite recently I noticed a very marked change in it. I do not tune in to the sponsored programme very often, but the other night—quite accidentally—I found myself listening to what I thought was an English programme. Even the voices were decidedly and distinctly English. I want to know what became of those people whose voices were Irish and who were conducting and announcing the sponsored programme for some months. Has it been necessary to go across to England to find people to run the sponsored programme? Has the Minister any responsibility for this programme? Is the Minister responsible for having persons with decidedly English accents running the sponsored programme when there are plenty of people in this country who would be in a position to act as announcers and conduct that programme? Has the Minister only control over the programme, or has he control over the people who conduct the programme and announce the items? I ask him to look into the matter and to give us some information about it when replying.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Deputy be in favour of expelling any English person earning his living in this country?

Mr. Hogan

I do not think that that question is quite relevant, but I would be in favour of giving a capable Irish person an opportunity of getting a living in his own country before I would employ an Englishman.

Mr. Dillon

If the British took up that attitude, they would send back to us our 300,000 emigrants.

Mr. Minch

I do not want to go into this question of Oxford accents. Perhaps they are improving their pronunciation. We have heard Deputy Dillon suggest that it would be a good thing if we had in this country celebrity concerts on the lines of those conducted by Sir Henry Wood, that the people would receive a great musical treat if something similar could be put across the ether from Athlone. I understand that Athlone has increased its transmission in a technical way so that it can give service even to the smaller sets, so that if there were relays from London everybody here could hear them. At the moment, everybody with an ordinary set can listen in to Sir Henry Wood and to the operas in Covent Garden, conducted by Sir Thomas Beecham and others. As a matter of fact, if you want to get on to an ordinary English programme when Covent Garden is going full blast in the summer months, you are confronted with great difficulty and must spend a great deal of time trying to avoid Covent Garden. That is the case with persons like myself, ordinary citizens without any highfalutin musical leanings.

I do not know whether Deputy Dillon will agree with me or not, but people tell me that at those big operas two-thirds of the charm is got in the conductor breaking through the bars and, as they say, unless you have the conductor in front of you, you lose the charm and the motion. I am sure Deputy Dillon appreciates that point. To get back to sincerity, Deputy Dillon suggested that we should have, at least, broadcasts of records of these operas, in the form of a library, by which a complete opera, or a half, or a quarter of an opera could be sent across to Irish listeners. I suggest, first of all, that some of our records ought to be scrapped. I do not know whether the engineers or the testing officials can get the reactions which the ordinary listener is able to discover. But unquestionably we, at times, find that a particularly good record has been what one might call "knocked about" because of the way in which it is started and finished. That may be caused by a flaw in the record itself, or it may be because the required extra attention was not given to it by the official who was attending to that record. If you do not get a smooth start and a smooth finish with a record, it is not giving its proper service. As a matter of fact, at times it is irritating.

I, with others, have on numerous occasions found that the announcer or announcers very in the acoustics or that there is a great variation in the intonation which one gets from one's machine. Perhaps the engineering tests might bring something to light in the way of showing where in that respect the defect occurs. I find one thing greatly in favour of the Dublin station. There is more of a personal contact with the announcer there than one finds with the announcers in the British broadcasting stations. I think the majority of us feel that one is more at home when listening to the Dublin announcers. There is something of an extraordinary superior tone about the British announcers. There is no doubt that in a broadcasting station the announcer is of vital importance. I can quite understand that there is tremendous difficulty in getting an announcer who, one can feel, has the right lift and drop in his voice, and who is able to give that continuity which is so essential. I ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that as we have, I believe, a good announcer, he should be retained and that the announcer should not be changed about. I am not going to refer now to what Deputy Hogan said about that matter, though I agree with his criticisms. We have had new announcers, who were very nervous, put on at times. This might be due to the microphone or the receiving sets, but one did not feel certain that they had self-confidence. The defect might be due to the reception. That is often responsible for a tremendous part of the efficiency or otherwise of broadcasting. It is a great satisfaction to have an announcer who is known to be always at the top of his job. The news that comes on the air from Dublin is not very satisfactory at all times.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. Minch

I would feel I was funking the issue—and I hope I will never reach that stage—if I did not raise that matter here now. On numerous occasions, or at least on some occasions, we had broadcast a little bit of pink news, or news that was somewhat tainted with the pink outlook. I do not know whether that is an exact description of it. On one occasion, we got news broadcast from Spain, giving the views of a self-appointed mission, a number of ecclesiastics who went there from England. Few know who they were or what they represented. However, they appointed themselves and went across there. I understand they had some difficulty in securing visas or passports from the British Foreign Office. Some of their views were put on the air from our station. Those views were about conditions in Spain, and in them an insult was offered to the faith of the majority of the people of this country. That bit may have slipped through. I hope when news about Spain in future is going to be given, that proper care will be exercised in its selection. Somebody may ask, how are you going to get it? We have the so-called Caballero, for the Madrid Government, at Valencia. Their communiqués must be given, but at the same time an equally good show should be given to the Burgos Government. I do not think I need say any more on that. I remember on one occasion we had another celebrated ecclesiastic's views given on the wireless, and afterwards that broadcast was contradicted by the ecclesiastic himself. I refer to the Bishop of Gibraltar. Possibly in England and other countries so much attention would not be given to those broadcasts about Spain. But here in Ireland, fortunately, we are interested. While we do not want to be led up the garden with optimistic communiqués which may not be true, at the same time we would like to see that the truth about the Burgos Government is put on the air from our station.

I was very sorry that it happened this year we did not have broadcast criticisms on the Budget. Last year these criticisms were a very interesting and educational part of the programme. Why we did not have them this year I do not know. There was an announcement in the Press that the Minister for Finance found it impossible to give his attention to preparing a broadcasting talk. If the Minister for Finance found it impossible to do that, I do not see that is any reason why any of the Opposition or the Labour Party, or some prominent independent Deputy would not be allowed to give talks on the Budget. Why should everybody be penalised because the Minister for Finance did not find it convenient to prepare a broadcast talk? In fair play, there may be an adequate reason as to why we did not have that broadcast. I would, however, like to have an understanding now that this is not going to be a precedent, and that on other occasions, if the Minister for Finance is unable to give his views, other Deputies will be allowed to give theirs.

There is no doubt at all but great credit is due to the Broadcasting Director and his assistants for the programmes they broadcast. I have heard this commented on by people in England, Wales and Scotland. They tell me that they find the Irish programme very attractive. Very often they switch off from their own Regional or National programmes to hear the programme from our country; and they express themselves as charmed with the entertainment broadcast from 2RN. That is a very great tribute indeed. In this House we are more or less inclined to criticise, but on this occasion I am happy to be in the position to give that information to the House, to give that appreciation which I have just expressed. It can certainly be taken by the Director and those around him as a very great tribute. The people who gave the Irish station so much praise had nothing to gain by doing so; they had no reason for giving it beyond pure sincerity.

I must congratulate the Minister and the Director on the manner in which they are protecting the Athlone station from what I might refer to as factions, from individuals who might endeavour to exploit it. It is a great thing to know that the station is being used for the benefit of all and it is not going to be used for exploitation purposes by organisations, individuals or factions of any description. As long as the Minister and those who are running the broadcast service act impartially, they will find that the overwhelming mass of public opinion will be behind them. There were some, I am sorry to say, who rather thought that Radio Athlone was built specially for them and that no one else should air their views through its medium. I am glad to know that that has been and is being fought against and that there are going to be no favourites, that the programme is going to be Irish in its outlook and that the station will be operated in a true democratic spirit, with fair play to everybody. If the Director continues to run things in that way, he may always count on the support of a solid public opinion.

Mr. Corish

I am very sorry that I have complaints to make somewhat similar to those expressed by Deputy Dillon. Last year I complained of the type of reception that we had in Wexford. I stated that it was really very bad. I am sorry to say that that complaint still holds good. We certainly have got more power from Radio Athlone, but the voices coming across the radio seem to be very indistinct. When Stuttgart, the station next to Athlone, is in operation it is impossible to receive Athlone distinctly. I would suggest, as Deputy Dillon has suggested, that the Minister should send observers to various parts of the country to find out in what way the programmes are being received. Speaking from my own experience, I certainly do not get a good reception of the Irish programme, and that complaint is rather general in my constituency. As I have indicated, the power is higher than it has been but the reception is just as indistinct as ever.

With regard to the question of symphony concerts and classical music generally, at present nine symphonies by Beethoven are being broadcast in a series of one per week. Very recently, the Director of Broadcasting, at very great inconvenience, I am sure, because of the tremendous amount of organisation that must have been necessary, held a symphony concert in the Gaiety Theatre, Dublin, and he broadcast the music from that concert for an hour. I am pretty sure that it was appreciated, and I do know that the theatre itself was filled with a very appreciative audience. I think it was a great tribute to the Director himself for the manner in which the whole thing was conducted. He brought over a very eminent conductor, Sir Adrian Boult, the Conductor of the B.B.C. Symphony Orchestra, and the evening was appreciated by everybody present as well as by those who were listening in.

I understand that there is still some trouble in respect of the outside stations coming in and interfering with Athlone. That matter is being examined still further, and there is a conference coming off very shortly at Cairo, at which we are going to have representatives present. That particular question of the interference by these stations will be raised there, and I hope that some possible solution will be found whereby the interruptions will be removed. Now, with regard to the school programmes to which, I think, Deputy Dillon more or less objected, there is a half-hour on five days, from 2.30 to 3—an extra half-hour which does not interfere with the ordinary broadcasting to the public. The public still gets what they got previously. If they do not desire to listen in to the children's broadcast, they need not do so. The particular type of education the children can get by means of the broadcast is not a type of education they get in school, and that is a very good reason why we are availing of the opportunity to broadcast this type of education. Irish poetry and Gaelic songs, choir singing, plain chant, Irish history in ballad form, and band music from No. 1 Army Band, and so on—these are the types of things the children are fairly certain to appreciate, and they do not interfere with the ordinary school programmes.

The question of the sponsored programme was raised by Deputy Hogan. Our position is simply that we sell the hour to the people concerned, the Hospitals' Trust. I understand that they have engaged an Englishman, or Englishmen, within the last few weeks, and these people, apparently, are acting as commentators for the programme at the moment. However, we are looking into that with a view to seeing what we can do.

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 22 Apr 1937