I think the Minister said that when he abolishes a county council he reserves certain powers to himself.
In Committee on Finance. - Local Government (Nomination of Presidential Candidates) Bill, 1937—Committee and Final Stages.
Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."
Can reserve.
I want to know is this one of the powers reserved. On the Second Reading I said that certain powers are conferred by the Constitution and, unless you amend the Constitution, you cannot take these powers away from a county council.
The county council is non-existent.
So much is it in existence that it was thought necessary to bring in this Bill to make this proviso. It has never been urged, even by the Minister, that the abolition of a county council would get rid of the necessity for this Bill. The reason he gave for the introduction of the Bill was an entirely different reason, namely: that he did not think it was necessary, because no commissioner I suppose he would say in his senses, would think of exercising this power. He did not put forward the view that the county council no longer exists. The Minister says that he is only amending the Act of 1925. I have put it to him that he is doing more than that. He is depriving certain county councils or districts of rights conferred upon them by the Constitution. I ask him, when he says that he reserves certain rights of the county council to himself, is this one of the rights reserved to himself? I think he can answer that question.
The Minister deprives the county council of its rights when he abolishes it. When the county council is abolished, for instance, a question arises as to the various subsidiary bodies on which there are representatives of a county council. He abolishes the county council, but he does not, by the act of abolition, arrange for representation on the mental hospitals' board, the board of health, the tuberculosis committee, and other subsidiary bodies, such as the harbour board. From time to time, as necessity arises, the Minister makes another order and appoints persons—it may be the commissioner or other persons—to carry on the administrative functions of the county council as part of these other bodies. In that way, the powers and privileges of the county council are non-existent when the county council is abolished.
I do not agree with the Minister. As a matter of fact, my contention always was that what the Minister really did by the abolition of a county council was that he took from certain persons the right of administration of that county, but he transferred them to a commissioner. That was what he did. He did not restrict the rights of the people or the rights of the county council. As a matter of fact, the commissioner became the county council and had all the rights of the county council. I do not agree with the Minister that he takes them in part and gives them back in part. He takes the whole rights of the administration from a certain set of persons to carry on as a county council and to administer the affairs of that county, and he transfers the whole lot to a commissioner to act as a county council. While the Minister does not think that he is interfering with the Constitution, the Minister will admit that, if he regards the county as composed of a certain number of individuals or ratepayers— whatever way he likes to take them— he certainly is restricting the rights of these people under the Constitution because they have not the rights laid down in the Constitution for them. The Minister says that he can retain certain rights. If he retains these rights which the people under the Constitution have, he ought to exercise them in their name, or somebody ought to exercise them; because they are being disfranchised to that extent —there is nobody representing them.
Is it not clear from the words of the Act that, though the Minister abolishes the county council, he assumes the powers of the county council himself and transfers them from himself to a commissioner? Is that not the real position? I think the Minister is nodding to that effect. Therefore, all the functions of the county council are in the Minister and, therefore, the result of this Bill will be to deprive the commissioner of the right of nomination and leave it with the Minister. That is the only legal interpretation of the Bill. He deprives the commissioner and he leaves it with himself. I stress this because, as I said already, the Government ought to be alive to the fact that they have started to amend the Constitution in various ways. I think they are already aware of that themselves and it is because this gives me an opportunity of raising and stressing that matter that I am dealing with it. I have no doubt that if the Minister continues to be Minister for Local Government, and has these powers, he will not nominate himself for the Presidency but legally he is taking power to do it.
There is one way of meeting this as there is to meet many other difficulties that the Constitution is presenting to us every day, even when we are trying to implement an Act that is not yet in force. That is, to amend the Constitution itself. That is the only satisfactory way to do it and the sooner the Government makes up its mind to amend that particular faulty instrument, the better. I take it from the nods the Minister gave me that he has really this power at the present moment. Just one more word. The Minister spoke about certain powers conferred by an Act which he could take away because other powers are given to him by another Act to take them away. He should make a distinction, however, between ordinary Acts and such a fundamental thing as the Constitution. He can by ordinary legislation take away other rights, but to quote that as an example when he is dealing with the Constitution shows an opinion of the Constitution that is quite surprising, and one that I did not expect from the Vice-President.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 2 and 3 and the Title put and agreed to.
May I point out that this Bill is creating as many doubts as it is removing?
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.