Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 May 1939

Vol. 76 No. 3

Vote 7—Old Age Pensions.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £2,346,450 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun íoctha Pinsean Sean-Aoise (8 Edw. 7, c. 40; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 16; 9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 102; Uimh. 19 de 1924; Uimh. 1 de 1928; Uimh. 18 de 1932; agus Uimh. 26 de 1938); chun Pinsean do dhaill (Uimh. 18 de 1932 agus Uimh. 26 de 1938); agus chun Costaisí Riaracháin áirithe bhaineann leo san.

That a sum not exceeding £2,346,450 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the payment of Old Age Pensions (8 Edw. 7, c. 40; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 16; 9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 102; No. 19 of 1924; No. 1 of 1928; No. 18 of 1932 and No. 26 of 1938); for Pensions to blind persons (No. 18 of 1932 and No. 26 of 1938); and for certain Administrative Expenses in connection therewith.

General Mulcahy

We had a statement from, at least, one member of the Government Party during the discussion on the Budget to the effect that some changes in the Old Age Pensions Act were introduced by the Government in order to secure that the older people holding lands down the country would transfer these lands to the younger people at an earlier stage than otherwise would come about, and that in fact there has been a very substantial transfer of land in that way throughout the country. I would like to ask the Minister for Finance if that aspect of the situation has really been reviewed and if as a result of the increased expenditure on old age pensions, there is a substantial trend in that direction?

Mr. Curran

On this Vote there is just one point I would like to put before the Minister for Finance. Only last week I was approached about the case of an old age pension in my constituency, and I found that the pension had been reduced because the woman had a certain number of hens. That was calculated as income and her old age pension was reduced by whatever amount the inspector thought desirable. I think that is a phase of the administration of this Act which I do not think is at all fair. I do not think that these small sources of income, of which cottiers take advantage, such as a few fowl, goats and apple trees, should be taken into account when estimating the means. I put it to the Minister and to the House that there is too much cheese-paring in connection with matters of that kind. It was brought to my notice last week that an old age pension was reduced because when the inspector came round he found a certain number of hens around the cottage. That, I think, is drawing the matter too fine. I ask the Minister to see that in the giving of these pensions, these little sources of income ought not to be assessed against the pensioner.

Mr. Hickey

I would like to know is the Minister aware of such a thing happening? Here is a case where an old age pensioner may have a son or a daughter in America or abroad, who may send her £10 or £11 during the year. If the woman is honest enough she will tell that to the local pension officer. That money is assessed against her pension. I am inclined to believe that the local pension officer is too rigid. Then there is the case of home assistance. At the moment the person becomes entitled to the pension the home assistance is stopped. Surely home assistance should not be put down as income against the old age pensioner.

Mr. Gorey

What Deputy Curran has said is similar to an experience of my own. I want to know is the Minister's policy that people, when they come to the age of drawing the old age pension, should do nothing for themselves, that they should cease to do any productive work for the country, that they should just sit down and do nothing but depend on the public purse? If that is the practice, let it be stated. If that is not the intention, why is it put into practice? I have mentioned what the actual effect of such a practice is—that people will do nothing for themselves but sit down and be a burden on the State. That is an awful thing, surely. What is the policy of the State in this matter?

Mr. Hickey

I will put to the Minister a very concrete case. It is the case of a man who gets a job as a night watchman from his old employer for one night or perhaps two nights in the week. He is paid 7s. 6d. for the two nights' work, from 8 o'clock at night until 8 o'clock the following morning. But because he gets that money his old age pension is reduced. I do not believe that that is at all the spirit of the Act. I would like if the Minister would give some directions to the local pension officers that they should not take such a matter into account. A man of seventy years of age will now and again try to do something to add to his little pension, but if he earns more than 8/- a week his pension is reduced. We all know what little work a man over 70 will do, or what little work he will get to do when there are so many younger people unemployed.

Mr. MacEntee

On the point raised by Deputy Mulcahy as to the effectiveness of the provision whereby persons who transferred land, even within a period of three years, become entitled to pensions, where, say, the transfer of their holdings took place under a marriage settlement, I think the best answer I can give is to refer the Deputy to the growth which has taken place in the provision for old age pensions.

General Mulcahy

I know the growth that has taken place, but has an examination been made of the effect of that growth in the line indicated?

Mr. MacEntee

I think that the increase has been very largely due to the effect of transfers made by elderly persons.

General Mulcahy

On what does the Minister base that?

Mr. MacEntee

On the statements of the Revenue Commissioners.

General Mulcahy

On what statements of the Revenue Commissioners?

Mr. MacEntee

On reports put before me, not within the last two years, but about three years ago, from which it was quite clear that a large part of the increase in the cost of old age pensions was due to the transfers of holdings so that the owners might be in a position to benefit by the provisions of the Act of 1932.

General Mulcahy

The Minister does not ask us to be convinced by a statement like that. Has this aspect of State policy not been systematically reviewed?

Mr. MacEntee

The last figures I had were placed before me about three years ago, and they were sufficient to convince me that this provision of the Act was operating even more effectively than we expected it would. The number of pensions payable in 1931-2 was 114,750 and in 1938 the number was 138,000.

General Mulcahy

How many farms were transferred?

Mr. MacEntee

A considerable number. I have not got these particulars. If the Deputy wishes, I may be able to get them for him. With regard to the point raised by several Deputies that when a person in receipt of an old age pension has his means increased, that increase ought not to operate to reduce the pension, the position is that we are bound, and that the officers concerned are bound, by a statute, which is very precise. Where the yearly means of the applicant or pensioner do not exceed a certain sum, a certain pension is payable. Where, on investigation, it is found that the means exceed this sum, then a corresponding reduction in the pension must take place.

Mr. Hickey

Would the Minister include 5/- a week home assistance in the means?

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has put home assistance on the same plane as income which might be derived from keeping hens. About that, I am not sure. But I know we spend considerable sums in investigating the means of applicants for pensions and of pensioners, and that the old age pensions Vote has increased from £2,700,000 odd in 1931-2 to £3,500,000 odd this year. That is, roughly, an increase of three quarters of a million. Obviously, when you are dealing with large sums of money like that, you have got to be satisfied that the person to whom an old age pension is being paid has not an income in excess of the statutory limit.

Mr. Hickey

Agreed, but if you find and the local committee find, that home assistance is part of that sum, I think it is unfair to include it.

Mr. MacEntee

We have got to remember that very poor people are being taxed, as well as people much better off, in order to pay these pensions—people who are not very much better off than the old age pensioner himself. We cannot proceed on the assumption that once a person has got an old age pension, his means are not to be subject to review or that, if it turns out that he is able to earn something, that fact is not to be taken into consideration when the amount of the pension is being re-considered.

Mr. Gorey

In plain English, it is your policy to prevent people getting the pension.

Mr. MacEntee

It is not my policy to do anything more than enforce what is written in the Act. Deputy Gorey has a certain reputation for consistency in this House. I have formed the opinion that the Deputy has a certain straight line of thought and is prepared to follow it. This is the first debate in which I have found him trying to speak with two voices. I remember, when the Budget was under discussion, Deputy Gorey getting up and talking about our social services being too high. I do not take the view that they are too high but I do take the view that they should be available only to the persons for whom they were intended by the Legislature. If the Legislature lays down certain limiting conditions in the administration of these Acts, it is my duty, in so far as I have to answer to the House and more particularly the duty of the Revenue Commissioners, who are under statutory obligation in this matter, to see that the requirements of the Act are strictly fulfilled. That is the view I take and we could not proceed on any other assumption because, if we did, we should have Deputy Gorey getting up and telling us that a man was only intended to get 10/- per week provided his annual means were not more than £15 12s. 6d., that he knew a person whose means were £20 or £25 who was in receipt of 10/- and that his pension ought to be reduced accordingly. When you bear in mind the resources of the great mass of the people who pay these pensions, there is a great deal to be said for that point of view.

Mr. Gorey

I would not say anything of the sort.

Mr. MacEntee

Whether there is any difference on that point or not, that is the view of the Legislature, as laid down in the Act, and I do not think that there is any dissatisfaction——

Mr. Hughes

The amounts assessed for poultry and things of that kind are excessive.

Mr. Gorey

What I object to is the premium you are putting on idleness. I would rather see people do something for themselves.

Mr. MacEntee

In answer to Deputy Hughes, I am not competent to assess the means of an applicant for an old age pension either here or in the country.

Mr. Hughes

The amount assessed for the use of a cow is excessive.

Mr. MacEntee

The people who are doing that particular work have been doing it for a very long time and I think they are able to do their job fairly and justly to everybody concerned. It may suit the farmer, occasionally, to decry the value of a pig or a cow or any income-producing article he may have around his homestead, but there are persons there who know——

Mr. Hughes

According to the values of the Revenue Commissioners, the farmers should be millionaires.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy knows he is talking to a townsman, but he should remember that the great majority of the Revenue Commissioners' officers come out of country homes and know the value of these things as well as the Deputy does.

Mr. Hickey

I wonder.

Mr. MacEntee

They know exactly the value attached to any article capable of producing agricultural income.

Mr. Hickey

I do not intend to mix up the two points raised by Deputy Gorey and Deputy Hughes——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may put a question when the Minister shall have concluded. However, the Chair will not rule strictly.

Mr. Hickey

A man is in receipt of 7/6 National Health allowance up to 70. That is stopped immediately he reaches 70. He applies for an old age pension. Is it not fair to say that that 7/6 is calculated against him for the old age pension? These are the things I want to see corrected, and I think the officers are interpreting the Act rather too strictly.

Mr. Hughes

Is the Minister satisfied that the assessment made for the possession of a cow, a pig or hens is not excessive?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not prepared to say so.

Mr. Hughes

Would the Minister be prepared to have the matter looked into? I must say that that is my experience.

Mr. MacEntee

I shall look into the matter, but I must not be taken as acquiescing in the Deputy's point of view. If it should be found excessive, and we should have to come to the Dáil and ask Deputies to vote more money for old age pensions, I hope those Deputies who have been addressing themselves to this matter this evening will not come along and say that we ought to economise.

General Mulcahy

Would the Minister say whether these figures are fixed by the Department of Agriculture?

Mr. MacEntee

I think they are fixed in consultation with the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Gorey

Indeed, they are not.

Vote put and agreed to.