asked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures if he will state whether instructions issued to the Press under the Emergency Powers Act, 1939, or Orders made thereunder will he available to Deputies.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Censorship.
asked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures if he will associate with the Censor an advisory committee consisting of three members of the Oireachtas, two of whom shall not be members of the Government Party.
asked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures if he will state whether he is aware of the widespread prevalence of disquieting rumours; and whether with a view to allaying public uneasiness he will see that the censorship regulations will be so operated as to ensure through the public Press a speedy, accurate and truthful report of news, and that no news will be prohibited from publication unless such publication is definitely contrary to the general public interest.
I am taking questions 29, 30 and 31 together. I recognise the desirability of keeping contact with all Parties in the Dáil on general matters arising out of the powers of censorship conferred on the Government by the Emergency Powers Act and I am prepared to consult from time to time with a Dáil Committee consisting of three members to be selected by the Dáil Committee of Selection. It must be quite clearly understood, however, that the effective operation of censorship often requires prompt action and the Minister who is responsible to the Dáil and the country for censorship must, therefore, have the authority to act on his own initiative without reference to the consultative committee. It is not proposed to circulate to Deputies censorship instructions issued to the Press, but if the Dáil appoints a consultative committee I shall inform its members of the nature of such instructions.
No information which is not definitely contrary to the general public interest will he withheld by the Censorship Department. But even the abolition of censorship would not prevent the circulation of scare rumours in times like these. The only way to prevent such rumours causing public mischief is to get the people to use their commonsense and sense of humour in regard to them, and, where a rumour is being spread maliciously or is calculated to damage the safety of the people or of the State, in such a case it is their duty to report the matter to the Gárdaí.
Do I understand that the Minister refuses to give to Deputies the instructions issued to the Press, so that the country and the Deputies are quite unaware as to what amount of censorship is being exercised on the Press? Is that the present position?
I am prepared to give those instructions to a committee of three of the Dáil. It is not advisable to start publishing every censorship instruction that has been issued; it would do away with the whole basis of censorship. I am prepared, if the Dáil establishes a consultative committee, to give them copies of such instructions and to consult with them from time to time.
If instructions which are not published are issued to the Press, will those instructions be communicated to members, or say, to a committee of three, so that they can be used here in the Dáil in order that the House, in matters that Deputies think of importance, will have an opportunity of discussing them? Will the Minister remember that, when this matter was being debated when Parliament last met, it was decided—and a pledge was given—that no matters of opinion would be censored? If we or the committee of three see that departed from, will there be an opportunity to raise the matter, or will the committee of three be bound in honour and secrecy not to discuss these matters in the House? Will there be an opportunity of bringing these matters before the House, or does the Minister, when he mentions a committee of three, mean that these three will be bound by the seal of secrecy?
If the Dáil wishes to get further information, more than it has at the moment, about this business of censorship, they could appoint a committee of three. That committee could meet the Minister responsible for the matter and see how they would get along. I suggest that there is not much use in having a committee of that nature unless it is understood—for a beginning, at any rate—that the information disclosed to that committee and which has not been disclosed to the public will be kept confidential. If this committee is appointed and if there is some particular point of censorship with which any member of the committee disagrees, it could be considered whether or not that matter will be ventilated in the Dáil or elsewhere. I think it will be time enough to discuss the proceedings of the committee when such a committee has met.
I hope that the Minister sees the difficulty. Any quantity of instructions may be issued to the Press—may have been issued already, so far as I am aware—and the Dáil is completely ignorant as to the amount of censorship that is being exercised on the Press at the present moment. It is that point that I refer to, and I want some tolerable way of having it dealt with. I am not objecting to the power of censorship where it is necessary for the safety of the country, and I do not wish to embarrass the Government; but there must be some guarantee that the Press is not being unduly censored. I would ask the Minister to remember that, undoubtedly, what is responsible for a large crop of the absurd rumours that have come about is the very existence of censorship—not the way it is being exercised. The existence may be necessary—I quite admit that—but it should obviously be exercised in such a manner that no more of these absurd and highly harmful rumours will be spread. It may be well to scott at them—and the Minister has suggested scoffing at them—but I have no information about them. I do not know what information the Press has but, in the interests of the working of the censorship, I think the Dáil ought to get some information as to what the instructions are. It would work better and more easily if that were done.
I have no objection to giving the Dáil a general idea of the instructions that have been issued. This is question time, however, and the Deputy did not ask that specific question. We can discuss the matter further on the Adjournment. I quite realise all the difficulties that follow from censorship, but I have assured the Dáil, in answering this question, that no information which is not definitely contrary to the general public interest will be withheld by the Censorship Department. That is as far as I can go in a general statement. Generally, the Government and myself are aware of the dangers pertaining to censorship. The Dáil would never have entrusted the Government or any member of the Government with such powers, were it not that they realised that there was a state of emergency and, therefore, that certain powers of censorship would have to be taken. They will be exercised in such a way by the Government that all the information that the people ought to have and that is not contrary to the public interest will be given to them, as far as the Censorship Department is concerned.
As the Minister suggests, this question may be raised on the Adjournment debate, but perhaps, in the meantime, the Minister would look up the pledges that were given on the last occasion.
I am aware of them.
Is it the Minister's contention that, under the emergency powers conferred on him by the Dáil, he will not only issue regulations but, as it were as a parallel or as an outcrop of those regulations, he will issue secret orders to the Press, the contents of which will be withheld from Deputies of Dáil Eireann? I put it to the Minister this way. There are about 50 newspapers in this country; there is a managerial staff of three in each. There is going to be a secret document issued as a result of powers given by the whole of Parliament, available to 150 outsiders but withheld from 138 Dáil Deputies. Is that so?
I have not said any such thing. The instructions sent to the Press are confidential instructions. If an editor disobeys those instructions there is a way of dealing with him. The 138 Deputies of Dáil Éireann cannot run a censorship organisation. The whole basis of the organisation of government is that there is a Government selected by the Dáil which does the executive work. Seeing that this particular piece of executive work is liable to cause apprehension in the minds of certain of the Deputies—and, perhaps, of certain members of the public—the Government is prepared, and I am quite prepared, to consult with three representatives of the Dáil on that matter. There is no use in saying that to deny individual members of the Dáil access to certain documents is running contrary in any way to the general basis of government. We cannot have the whole 138 members of the Dáil going into a Department and examining files in regard to matters.
Deputies are entitled to see regulations and orders of any Department.
But they are not entitled to see confidential files.
These are orders.
These are confidential orders issued to the Press which the Press has to obey. I am prepared here in the House to give the Dáil a general idea of the nature of the censorship instructions that have been sent to the Press. I am prepared to go further than that, to give to three members selected by the ordinary Committee of Selection—and if that is done, there will be a representative from each of the Opposition Parties—detailed particulars of the general instructions that have been issued to the Press. Beyond that, I do not think you could ask the Government to go, if it wants to have a, censorship at all, because there is no use in telling the public, by publication in the Dáil, what has been prevented from being published in the papers.
Does the Minister not see that that means that there is unlimited power in the Government to administer this power in the sense in which it was explained to us on the last day, or not as they please, and there is no means of checking that because it cannot be raised in the Dáil? The committee of three cannot reveal it in the Dáil. The members of any Party, either on the Front Bench or others, cannot deal with it because it is a matter of confidence. No Deputy can raise it if he gets it from the Press because, as the Minister has indicated, there are ways of dealing with members of the Press who approach Deputies in that way. There is absolute power now assumed by the Minister, without any supervision on the part of the Dáil, to carry his censorship as far as be likes—censorship of opinions as well as of facts.
Censorship involves, to a certain extent, secrecy. Secrecy is a natural element of the whole scheme and, as I say, the Government realises that censorship is likely to cause uneasiness amongst members of the Dáil as well as amongst the people. I think that meeting these three representative members of the Dáil and discussing the thing fully with them is as far as we can go. I could see a case, if the three members differed very violently with what the Minister was doing, for allowing them to go to the Taoiseach or somebody like that and to ask for a private session to discuss the matter, but I do not think that if secret instructions are issued they should be debated in public at any rate.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, may I point out to him that these instructions which have been issued in regard to censorship, are addressed to the proprietors of the various papers? The proprietors of a certain newspaper may number not less than a dozen persons, all of whom may be directors of the company. There are two copies of the notice served on these people and a dozen or 14 persons will be entitled to see them. Why should these 14 persons be entitled to peruse and analyse these instructions, in any way they like or for any purpose they like, while a member of the Dáil is prohibited from seeing them? I think that that is putting members of the Dáil in a most inferior position.
The only thing is that members of the Dáil are responsible to the people to see that the Government does not exceed the executive powers given to it by the people.
That is what we are doing at the moment.
It cannot run the Civil Service in detail. It cannot run any public service in detail. All it can do is to get as much information from the Government as possible.
Deputies
Hear, hear!
In this particular case, if we give full information to members of the Dáil here in public, in regard to the censorship we shall, in effect, be abolishing the censorship, because we would be disclosing here in the Dáil information the publication of which we have prohibited elsewhere.
Oh, no.
Deputies need not blind themselves to the fact that there is a big difficulty in the thing. I shall go as far as I can to meet them. I shall meet three Deputies of the Dáil. This is a matter that can be considered by the Taoiseach and by the leaders of the Opposition. If they want to go to the Taoiseach afterwards—this is a thought that struck me only just now —or if the members of the committee violently disagree with something that is happening in the Censorship Department, they can approach the Taoiseach with a view to having a secret meeting of the Dáil to discuss the matter. I see no other way of dealing with it.
Is the Minister willing to make public the general lines on which newspapers are to act, in other words, the general propositions laid down to the newspapers? Is he willing to have these given to the Dáil and the country?
I shall put them in general language.
Oh, not in general language—in specific language as given to the newspapers?
Oh, now!
Might I refer to one thing the Minister has stated? The Minister said that Deputies have a responsibility to the country to see that the Government does not exceed its powers or use them improperly but he deprives Deputies of the opportunity to discharge that responsibility.
Deputies have another responsibility and that is to see that the country does not suffer by inquisitiveness on their part.
Would the Minister——
Question No. 32.