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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Apr 1940

Vol. 79 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate.—Compensation for Reservist's Dependents.

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to a few facts in connection with the case which was the subject matter of question No. 13 to-day. I consider these facts are of the very greatest importance. I have brought this matter forward in the interest of the widow and orphans of this soldier of the State who died while on service. The Minister, in the course of his reply to my question to-day, made certain observations upon which I would like to comment. Portion of my question indicated that this reservist, Thomas O'Grady, died from cardiac syncope due to haemorrhage from a rupture of the heart. The Minister stated that a court of inquiry was held and that the evidence adduced at the inquiry showed that Reservist O'Grady's heart muscle was diseased, apparently from a previous serious illness, and therefore that he did not die as a result of the injury.

I want to put certain facts before the Minister and the House. First of all, I want to point out that when a soldier goes on Reserve he is examined by the medical authorities attached to the Army and a certificate is given certifying that the man is fit for service on the Reserve. Again, when the reservist is called up for duty he is again examined by the medical people. If he is found fit for service he is sent on to do his month's training, and if he is found unfit he is sent home. I do not think that the Minister will argue, because I know it would not be correct to do so, that the medical people attached to the Army did not give this reservist, as they would give every reservist and every member of the Army, a thorough examination and, therefore, we must take it that he passed in physically fit when he was called up for training in the first week of August, 1939.

The Minister says that he did not die as the result of the injury received. I would like to draw his attention to the evidence given by Private Stackan at the coroner's inquest. Private Stackan, in reply to the coroner—it appears there was nobody appearing for the unfortunate relatives of the deceased soldier and therefore the witnesses were all examined on one side, as it were—said that the deceased and some other soldiers were wheeling a handcart returning from exercises at Ballyvaughan. Deceased and Private Duffy were behind and Privates Dempsey and Gaynor in front. All went well until they came out of a dyke. They were moving pretty quickly at the time when the cart overturned. It had struck a hump in the ground. It swerved and then turned over. A handle struck deceased, knocking him down. Deceased did not say he was hurt at the time, but continued for approximately one and a half miles.

Now, I presume that is what the Minister is going on. That was corroborated by Private Duffy. Then Doctor C. Maguire, whom I know—he was a member of the Army Medical Service—gave evidence that he carried out a post-mortem examination on the direction of the coroner and he found that death was due to rupture of the left ventricle of the heart, and as a result of the rupture there was haemorrhage into the pericardium. He went on to say that this might be caused by over-exertion. The jury found that the deceased died from cardiac syncope due to haemorrhage from a rupture of the heart.

I have made inquiries from a prominent heart specialist in the city and I would like to tell you his opinion. First of all, I want to point out that this unfortunate man was 37 or 38 years of age. He was examined when going on the Reserve and found fit for service. He was found fit in the first week of August and on the 28th August he died from this rupture, which I say was caused when he was struck by the cart. This eminent medical authority in Dublin assured me that a rupture of a ventricle of the heart rarely takes place even in the most advanced form of a diseased heart and that the only time a rupture of a ventricle of the heart takes place is when there is a crushing stroke given on the breast and immediately afterwards there is another one on the back—in other words, when a person is hit in front and is violently thrown on the ground on his back, that causes a rupture of the ventricle.

On that point, I submit that the evidence is quite the other way from what the Minister alleges; that the evidence all goes to show that this man died as the result of his injuries. The Minister tells me that a court of inquiry has found otherwise. I know the strength and the value of courts of inquiry. If the court of inquiry found that this man did die as a result of the injury and the coroner's inquest found something else, the Minister would say he was not bound by it and I submit he is not bound by it in this case because the evidence at the inquest was given by the doctor who carried out the post-morten and there was evidence given by two people who saw the accident. There is evidence that O'Grady was in the best of form prior to the accident and he was in a state of collapse immediately after it occurred. I therefore submit that in the interests of justice the Minister should exercise the authority that is vested in him by this House to give to the widow and orphans of this soldier of the State the compensation to which in equity they are entitled.

What happened after they had gone a mile along the laneway subsequent to the accident?

The soldier was in a state of collapse at the time. He was linked and carried into the bus. They had only wireless communication with the Curragh and an ambulance came out and took him to the Curragh. When he reached there he was dead. There is no contention about that. The Minister's contention is that he did not die as a result of the injuries. The Minister's reply is that he regrets that he is precluded from considering the question of an ex-gratia grant in consequence of the cause of death found by the court of inquiry. The Minister contends that he did not die as a result of the injury but that he died as a result of a diseased heart. Here are his words:—

"The medical evidence adduced at the inquiry shows that the late Reservist O'Grady's heart was diseased apparently from a previous serious illness."

That is going a very long distance. I am pointing out to the Minister that when this man was taken into the Army he was examined, and I wish to point out that whatever else medical men might miss they do not miss the "ticker". They examined that reservist when going into the Reserve. They examined him again when coming out and passed him as fit. What better evidence can you find? The Minister may argue that these were merely slipshod examinations. No, they were very perfect in their examinations. I submit that the Minister from the evidence should reconsider the matter. Even assume for a moment that the doubt is the other way, I submit that the widow and orphans should get the benefit of that doubt.

There is one point I would like to make. I listened with interest to Deputy MacEoin. I know that some time ago a soldier came to me and told me he was discharged from the Army because he had a bad heart. So the authorities do take a special interest in how the heart in any soldier works. Before the Minister replies I just want to say this—that if the late Private O'Grady was employed in any civil occupation and met with a minor accident and died as a result of that, his widow and orphans would always get the benefit of the doubt from the Circuit Court.

I was not present to-day when the Minister answered Deputy MacEoin's question. Would the Minister now say did the Army hold a post-mortem themselves independent of the one held for the coroner's jury by which the Minister arrived at the conclusion that this man died as a result of a diseased heart from which he suffered some time before the accident?

At the beginning I would like to say that I feel just as sympathetically disposed in respect of the widow and orphans as Deputy MacEoin or any other Deputy in the House. Unfortunately, I have got to be guided by the regulations. I have got also to interpret all these cases through the medium of the rules and regulations about which Deputy MacEoin himself knows something. Deputy MacEoin quoted some evidence given by witnesses at the coroner's inquest. I have here a statement by a witness who interviewed the unfortunate man immediately after the accident. The witness to whom I refer is a lieutenant and he gave this evidence before the court of inquiry—which was a sworn inquiry. I do not know what Deputy MacEoin means by saying that he knows the strength and the value of courts of inquiry. The statements made before the court were all sworn statements. This is a serious statement by this lieutenant who says:

"On August 28th, 1939, I was platoon commander of No. 14 platoon, D Coy., 3rd Infantry Batt. The platoon was carrying out a delaying action. I was in rear of platoon and we were proceeding along a laneway when I noticed a soldier sitting on the grass. I asked him what was wrong and he said he had a terrible pain in the stomach. He also pointed towards his back. I asked him did he fall or get hurt, and he said he thought he had got a wrench when the machine-gun cart toppled over. I asked him was he struck by the machine-gun cart, and he said ‘No'."

When was that statement got from the deceased?

It was taken while the man was sitting on the dyke.

While the man was dying?

While he was sitting; I have that evidence here.

Before the Minister proceeds might I point out to him that there were two soldiers who were with the deceased when he was sitting on the grass. This lieutenant comes along a considerable time afterwards and finds the man in a collapsed condition sitting on the ground. Therefore any statement that he made should be taken in connection with that fact. It is absolutely unfair that any such statement should now be put in against his dependents.

Here is a statement taken from Dr. Charles Maguire who says:

"On the 28th August, 1939, on instructions from the Coroner for West Wicklow, I performed a post-mortem examination on the body of Private Thomas O'Grady. On examination I found the sac surrounding his heart full of blood. On further examination of his heart I found that the left ventricle was perforated, and the heart muscle itself was diseased and very friable from what appeared to be the result of a previous serious illness involving high fever. I concluded that death was due to shock and haemorrhage as a result of a rupture of the heart-wall and shock and also probably due to some unusual exertion."

Now on cross-examination he stated that "The post-mortem condition of this man's heart could only be diagnosed by an electro-cardiograph and other advanced tests that could escape diagnosis by an ordinary medical examination. It was in my opinion extremely difficult to confine the tests to a diagnosis of the ante-mortem condition of this man's heart". That would go to explain why this man could have been brought up and put into the service and how this actual accident could have been brought about. The accident was due, in my opinion, to the diseased state of the man's heart followed by the undue exertion which he put into pushing the cart and to the turning over of the cart which he possibly made a strong effort to prevent. Now, one of the findings of the court of inquiry was that "Thomas O'Grady died as a result of cardiac syncope and haemorrhage following a rupture of the left ventricle of the heart, and over-exertion in the course of his duties. Death did not arise from an injury". The Deputy mentioned that an ordinary employer would be liable to make a payment to this man under the Workmen's Compensation Acts, and said that the State should do likewise. In saying that I think he was making a mis-statement. If he desires to pursue that further I think that, possibly, he should get some legal advice on the matter. I do not think there is any case here in which workmen's compen sation would be payable even if it were ordinary civilian employment because first of all, there would have to be an injury, and I ask Deputies to marl this, there was no injury here. The injury, if any, would have to be due to something that in the words of the Act occurred in the course of or arose out of his employment. In this case it only occurred in the course of his employment and did not arise out of it. As I said earlier to-day, I am not, as the Deputy seems to think, vested with any powers whereby I could give an ex gratia grant to this man's relatives. I feel as sympathetically disposed towards them as any Deputy in the House, but I am prescribed, and unfortunately cannot take any action in the matter, and there, of course, the matter will have to rest.

May I just point out——

The Deputy should remember that the House is not in committee, and indeed has been given considerable latitude.

May I just put one question?

Suppose that Dr. Maguire found otherwise, would the Minister be bound to accept his opinion? Would it not be a fact that the Minister would consult other authorities there and then? Suppose it was a case of workmen's compensation, would not the deceased person's relatives be notified to get counsel and be represented at the inquest, so that the circumstances and the evidence would be completely different, I think.

May I put one question to the Minister?

No.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. to Thursday, 18th April, at 3 p.m.

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