Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Jul 1945

Vol. 97 No. 21

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 49—Science and Art (Resumed).

Mr. Cosgrave

Last night, when speaking on this Vote, I omitted to notice that provision was made for a scholarship or scholarships. It was so placed that it did not appear that preference was being given to the provision of scholarships, and as far as one could discover from the Minister's statement most of the money was to be spent on a display, on a memorial to Thomas Davis, and on various ceremonies. I think far better results would accrue from the provision of a scholarship or scholarships. This is a very large sum of money to spend merely on laying wreaths, and on erecting memorials which serve little purpose beyond bringing to people's minds, on the day or days on which those displays are held, the person commemorated. I should prefer to see proper provision made so that students could study the literature or works of Davis, and contribute in some way to a better appreciation of his writings and a better development of his teachings, not alone from their own point of view but from the point of view of the country generally.

I think the Minister will agree that we have not yet reached the ideal form of government in this country, and it would be a very welcome gain from the point of view of the country generally if students, as a result of a scholarship, could procure facilities to study the works of Davis. That would put us in a more advantageous position as far as public administration is concerned. As far as I can gather from the Minister's statement, most of the money provided in this Supplementary Estimate is to be spent on a form of gaiety, or a form of transient commemoration. It is proposed to spend £9,000 on a memorial, on the laying of wreaths on the grave of Davis and on his memorial in the City Hall, and it is also proposed to hold a ceilidhe. I think we could hold a ceilidhe at any time, at any place in the country, and get a large gathering there, instead of spending public money in this manner. It is proposed to spend the sum of £9,000 in commemorating the memory of Thomas Davis, and I think that could be done far more advantageously by providing scholarships which would enable the humblest citizens of this country to study his works, free from financial worries, so that they might contribute in a real way to a better knowledge and appreciation of those works. I should be glad if the Minister would indicate precisely to whom this money is to be allocated, what provision is to be made for the expenditure of the money, and after what examination this expenditure has been decided upon in the manner set out by the Minister.

Mr. Coogan

One would have expected in a matter of this kind that prior consultation would have taken place between the various Parties in this House. The first intimation that we on these benches had of this matter was the introduction of this Estimate yesterday. I do not know whether Fianna Fáil claims to be the lineal descendants of the tradition of '48, the tradition laid down by Thomas Davis. But I want to say this as regards Thomas Davis, apart from what he may have done for Irish literature. His greatest contribution to the political philosophy of this country was that throughout his entire life he preached unity. His doctrine was to unite under the common name of Irishmen every section of the community, every creed of the community, to unite orange and green, red, white and blue, green, white and yellow, Protestant and Catholic, and to put them all under the common name of Irishmen. I should prefer to see some movement coming from the opposite benches which would have for its object the inculcation into the minds of our people, and in particular into the minds of our youths, that particular doctrine of Thomas Davis. We on this side of the House can at least lay claim to as good a national tradition as the people on the opposite benches, and I claim that we should have had some prior consultation on these matters.

I would ask the Government Party, if they are going to commemorate the memory of Davis, please not to make it a Party affair. You have not the national tradition; the mantle of Thomas Davis has not fallen upon your shoulders, and I want to put it to the Government Party that if they want to perpetuate the memory of Thomas Davis in a manner befitting the occasion, let it be a commemoration in which all Parties in this House can unite. I notice that the foundation stone is to be laid this week. That is news to the House.

Minister for Education (Mr. Derrig)

It is news to me also.

Mr. Coogan

It is mentioned, I think, in the document which the Minister read: "It is hoped that the foundation stone of the memorial will be laid during the week".

Mr. Derrig

During the week commencing the 9th September.

Mr. Coogan

I am sorry, that I misread that—during the week commencing the 9th September. I have had an opportunity of only glancing at the document. The memorial will then be laid during the week of the celebrations. All I want to ask is that the occasion will not be made one for another Fianna Fáil ramp. Let all Parties who have some national aspirations in the country be given an opportunity of uniting on this particular occasion. I will go further and say that if you do wish to perpetuate the memory of Davis most of this money should be spent, not on jollifications, ceilidhes, parades, book fairs or anything of that kind. It would be much more befitting to the memory of Davis that the bulk of the money should be spent on the cause for which he stood, the education of Irishmen, and that it should be funded by way of a grant to some university for research into the life and work of Davis.

Mr. O'Neill

I would like to point out, in connection with the reference made by the last speaker to our flag, that it is not green, white and yellow. There is no yellow in our flag. Apart from that, I would ask the Minister to remember that Davis was a very eminent Corkman. I wonder if that was mentioned by the Minister in his speech last night. I would also like to point out that celebrations in regard to Thomas Davis are being carried out in Cork. A rather representative committee has been formed for that purpose. I want to know whether any portion of this £9,000 will be allocated to the activities in Cork?

Mr. Coogan

I am sorry if I hurt Deputy O'Neill's feelings by saying that our flag was green, white and yellow. It was a slip on my part. The flag itself betokens what Davis had in mind — green and orange with peace between.

General Mulcahy

My normal instinct, largely because of the way in which this matter has been approached, would be to oppose the Estimate. I think, however, that the Estimate itself and the idea put before the Dáil by the Government contain the germ of a valuable idea, and for that reason I have no intention of opposing it. We, however, think that the Government is making this a purely Party matter. We have in mind the fact that not so many years ago, when Easter Week was being celebrated, with the great national celebrations, you had your military parades, speeches and declarations, and that here in the heart of the City of Dublin all that was made the occasion of a flag-day for the Fianna Fáil Party. We have had similar episodes in connection with demonstrations for the emergency Defence Forces in various parts of the country. I think the idea enshrined in this proposal, if developed in a proper way, could be made most useful. After all, there is nothing more important to develop in our people to-day than a sense of individual personal dignity, capacity and greatness. In the course of our history we have had men of great stature, great courage and great ability. If it were not for them we would not be standing here to-day in a world torn by war—standing here as a sovereign nation, even if a partitioned one, untouched by any of the serious ravages of war. We have, therefore, something to look back to in the past.

I think it would be an admirable idea if, in a better thought-out way, a certain amount of money were voted from time to time to carry out—and this because of the destruction of our records and of the chequered nature of the history of our people—historical work on the stature and types of our national personalities, all of which has been obscured. It would be a good thing, in my opinion, if a certain amount of money could be granted periodically to take one of these personalities and by the systematical work of scholarships go back on their history and on their doings, and in that way display their personalities to the nation, particularly in regard to the qualities and principles that inspired their work as well as the reactions that their work had on holding the ordinary Irish people together, in strengthening them to advance along the road to the achievement of nationhood. I do not think that a simple isolated episode of voting something for a blow-out in one particular year will do that. Let a three-year period be selected. In that period, take some particular character of an outstanding kind in our history, ancient or modern, and have studious and constructive work done around it. When the work has been done by students and research workers, there could then be a national commemoration in various kinds of ways, so that our people could contemplate that character and learn about him from the material that had already been carefully guarded.

We are being asked to vote £9,000 for a commemoration of Davis this year. I think that a very considerable amount of that money is going to be wasted. I suggest that, if the idea I have put forward could be got to sink in, all this money would not be wasted, and that some constructive work could be undertaken. I can imagine what a most useful thing it would be if, after a certain amount of preparation, documentation and the getting together of all the known facts about his history, his writings and of the traditions we have about him in our literature, in, say, the case of Cormac Mac Airt, he was made a national personage and was brought in a foremost way into the public mind over a three-year period. Because of the excellence of his administration and of his virtues he got the grace of the Christian faith some centuries before St. Patrick ever came to Ireland. When, owing to his incapacity and his blindness his son took up the running of the kingdom, he went to his father for advice as to how a kingdom should be run. If only we could get stamped on the minds of our people the advice that Cormac Mac Airt gave to his son it would be well worth while spending £9,000. It would be well worth that if the mind of the nation could be brought to bear on the principles that were established there at the very thereshold of our history as to how a State should be run. "Cad a théann chunn tairbh dhúiche?" ("What is it that promotes the advantage of a kingdom?") "Daoine ciallmhara do thabhairt le chéile i gehomhthionól chun gnóthaí na tíre do scrúdú, chun na maitheasa do choimeád, chun an oilc do dhíbirt agus chun an tseanchais do léiriú." ("To bring sensible people together in an assembly, to discuss the affairs of the nation, to get rid of what is bad, to hold what is good and to interpret history.")

Because the expenditure of this money represents some kind of an attempt to interpret our history—I do not know how it will work out because of the way in which it is being handled —I am not opposing this motion. I hope that this Estimate is the beginning of a better thought-out and more constructive plan for dealing with this matter. Can the Minister tell us if it is the spirit of Davis and the Young Irelanders that is going to be, as it were, made to appear before the eyes of our people and that will affect our people in their attitude of mind and in their daily work, for the national good? Can the Minister tell us why, if that is the intention, a committee broadly representing the nation, was not brought together to stand over, to patronise and to supervise the affairs that are going to take place between this and the week and during the week? Can the Minister tell us who has been brought together to do these things and, in particular, in connection with the scholarly and artistic work that is contemplated, who is advising in that particular matter? To my point of view, nothing could more propitiously start this particular type of commemoration than that the Government would invite a certain number of people, as generally representing the nation, to stand over, to patronise and to direct this work.

We are just getting into the position that there is no organisation more anathema to, or more out of spirit with, anything that Davis ever thought or wrote or that the men around him ever thought than the present Government or the present Government Party. I will just ask you to begin contemplation of some of the things that Davis stood for in his time by listening to some of the things that have been gathered from his writings and from his mind by the late Arthur Griffith, who was the great interpreter of Thomas Davis to our generation. I would ask you to listen to a couple of things contained in the first 18 pages of Griffith's volume on "Thomas Davis: The Thinker and Teacher". I apologise to you, Sir, for having to read——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy does not purport reading 18 pages?

General Mulcahy

No, Sir, I propose reading what will run about two pages.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good.

General Mulcahy

The first quotation will be the longest. I tell you that so as not to frighten you.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not easily frightened—by debate at any rate.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor)

Could the Deputy not delay the quotation until Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy McGilligan and some other members of his Party are present?

General Mulcahy

I think they are already aware of it and, in case they are not, I will draw their attention to the fact that, as the start-off of this commemoration, I have endeavoured to put a few useful extracts from Davis's writings on the records of this debate.

Mr. Traynor

Good.

General Mulcahy

On page 9 of Griffith's collection, under the heading "Our Nationality", we get this from Davis:—

"Some, dazzled by visions of pagan splendour and the pretensions of pedigree, and won by the passions and romance of the olden races, continued to speak in the 19th century of an Irish nation as they might have done in the tenth. They forgot the English Pale, the Ulster Settlement, and the filtered colonisation of men and ideas. A Celtic kingdom with the old names and the old language, without the old quarrels, was their hope; and, though they would not repeat O'Neill's comment, as he passed Barrett's castle on his march to Kinsale, and heard it belonged to a Strongbownian, that. He hated the Norman churl as if he came yesterday'; yet they quietly assumed that the Norman and Saxon elements would disappear under the Gaelic genius like the tracks of cavalry under a fresh crop.

The nationality of Swift and Grattan was equally partial. They saw that the Government and laws of the settlers had extended to the island—that Donegal and Kerry were in the Pale; they heard the English tongue in Dublin, and London opinions in Dublin—they mistook Ireland for a colony wronged, and great enough to be a nation.

A lower form of nationhood was before the minds of those who saw in it nothing but a parliament in College Green. They had not erred in judging, for they had not tried to estimate the moral elements and tendencies of the country. They were as narrow bigots to the omni-potency of an institution as any Cockney Radical. Could they, by any accumulation of English stupidity and Irish laziness, have got possession of an Irish Government, they would soon have distressed everyone by their laws whom they had not provoked by their administration or disgusted by their dulness.

Far healthier with all its defects, was the idea of those who saw in Scotland a perfect model—who longed for a literary and artistic nationality—who prized the oratory of Grattan and Curran, the novels of Griffin and Carleton, the pictures of Maclise and Burton, the ancient music, as much as any, and far more than most, of the political nationalists, but who regarded political independence as a dangerous dream. Unknowingly, they fostered it. Their writings, their patronage, their talk was of Ireland; yet it hardly occurred to them that the ideal would flow into the practical, or that they, with their dread of agitation, were forwarding a revolution."

We too in our day depended upon the people and their ideas in language, in literature and in the advancing of agriculture, for the strength that brought us through to our independence here. We at the present moment have got into a position in which the omnipotence of an institution, the Fianna Fáil Party and the Fianna Fáil Government, has dazzled the minds or gripped the spirits or the will of the Government Party and many of its followers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the Supplementary Estimate, surely.

General Mulcahy

I am talking of Davis, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a lecture on Davis. It is a memorial to Davis.

General Mulcahy

I am not going to vote £9,000 here unless we can have some understanding as to what we are expending it for and as to what are the ideals and the thoughts that are going to be disseminated through this country by the expenditure of this £9,000. If we are going to get an expurgated, a misquoted and a mis-described Davis, if we are going to have that figure resurrected in this country, Sir, I am not going to have £9,000 spent here to have the country bewildered and men amazed as to what were the kind of men that were its strength and its hope to future generations in the past.

Mr. Traynor

You do not believe a word of it.

General Mulcahy

I say that Deputies will find in that quotation something that will make them ask themselves whether we are not being subjected at the present time by a people that regard themselves as an institution omnipotent in its way, bigger and greater than the people, crushing out the people.

Donnchadh O Briain

Was it not the people who put us here?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is very wide of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Traynor

Do not interrupt him.

General Mulcahy

Are we going to pass money here to have our people misled?

Mr. Furlong

Why do Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Mulcahy assume such a thing? Deputy Cogan gave an interpretation also.

General Mulcahy

The next quotation is about English policy in Ireland:—

"To garrison the country by filling it with bad passions and with mutual hatred and distrust—to prevent men from applying to the lucrative pursuits of trade and commerce—to deter them by mutual ill-will from consolidating their moral and physical strength for common objects of greatness and wealth— this is what England has systematically struggled to effect, and what, unluckily, she has accomplished."

Those things that, being done by England, could destroy this country and prevent men using their energies can be just as equally effective for the destruction of this country if they are carried on by a dominant Party acting through a Government here.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a political speech against the Government Party, in the guise of speaking to a Supplementary Estimate.

General Mulcahy

And, Sir, what on earth else is expected? I am warning the Government against the danger of their pursuing in this matter their purely Party political ends, as they have pursued them before.

Mr. Dillon

Maith thú.

General Mulcahy

While expressing myself as not wishing to nip in the bud a line of action and thought that can be constructively used, with the co-operation of all Parties in the House, I am asking to be allowed to point out to the House what the real Davis was, so that we can watch the way in which things will develop and can prevent national money being expended upon misleading the country, by a false interpretation of history. I will give just one other quotation, on Democracy and Centralisation, which Davis also wrote, and is taken from page 4 of Griffith's book:—

"Democracy has only kept half the promise given by its apostles. Centralisation is at least as great a foe to freedom, to spirit, and to prosperity, as aristocracy. In fact, centralisation, when there are no independent powers to check it, creates an official despotism, uniting the costliness and faction of an aristocracy with the iron grasp of mere monarchy."

I quote these paragraphs because I consider them appropriate to any kind of a discussion on an Estimate brought in to recall the memory of Davis and presuming to recall with greater clearance and force the personality of Davis and his associates when it is brought in by the Government, who gave no other Party in the House any idea of what they had in mind, who asked in no way for any co-operation from any Party in the House or, as far as I know, from anybody outside themselves and their Party. I want to suggest to them by these quotations that they are acting utterly and completely out of spirit with the outlook and principles and work of the man they ask the country to commemorate and I ask them to be warned, by the voices that we raise here, that we will not accept the situation in which Ireland is to be given a new version of Davis to suit Fianna Fáil ascendancy in this country.

Mr. Dillon

I understand these celebrations are designed to coincide with the founding of the nation. I suppose it will be permitted, in the rarefied atmosphere of modern patriotism, for a grandson of one of the men who founded the nation to say a word in regard to this matter. I sympathise with the hopes of the Leader of the Opposition, because I think he finds it hard to persuade himself that noble things could be brought so low, that he puts from him the thought that this is going to be a Fianna Fáil corroboree. What else does he think it will be but a day out, to show that de Valera is the reincarnation of Young Ireland? Let the dead rest: if Davis and his colleagues beheld the realisation of their dream, they would turn in their graves. Let the dead rest: do not desecrate their memories by pretending that a Party which understands Davis and his colleagues as much as a flea understands an elephant is the repository of the things they stood for. God forbid that those we see about us should ever be deemed by anybody, in our country or outside it, to be a realisation of their dreams. Their dreams have yet to come true in this country and there would need to be a mighty change in Fianna Fáil before they would ever be capable of taking the place of the men that Davis thought of when he wrote:—

"And righteous men must make our land

A nation once again."

Mr. Furlong

The Irish people think they did.

Mr. Dillon

God help them, if they do; but, please God, the time will come when the Irish people will be better judges and then we may see a generation worthy to commemorate the men whose leader wrote those words. In the meantime, all I ask is that you let the dead rest. Do not make their memory a subject of loathsome acrimonious argument in this day and generation. Do not attempt to use their memory for the purpose of representing the political leader of one Party in this country as the sole repository of nationality. Whatever the cost, you will not be allowed to get away with that, you will not be allowed to use their memory for your own purpose, you will not be allowed to fool our people into the belief that that Party represents what they stood for.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy also is making a Party political speech on a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I have said what I wanted to say.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not follow that it is in order.

Mr. Dillon

I exhort those responsible for this proposal to remember what I have said. I do not share the doubts of the Leader of the Opposition. I never had any doubt, when this proposal was adumbrated, that it was merely another stunt to represent to our people that the only patriot in Ireland was the present Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party. Anything that can be done to prevent that fraud on our people, whether it be done out of private or public funds, will be done. It would be a source of profound regret to me if, having used public money and private money to that end, they should now stop so low as to use the memory of the dead for so unworthy a purpose.

Captain Giles

I am afraid the spectacle here to-day is that we are not fit to honour our worthy dead. Unfortunately, in the present generation our minds are warped in narrow politics. If we want to honour a man like Davis we must be broadminded and noble as he was. Davis was one of those who believed in all the people, not merely in a political few. He believed in orange and green being blended together in the Ireland of his dreams. He was a true Irishman—first, last and all the time. It is only fitting to honour all our great patriots and that our nation should show throughout the country its appreciation of those who helped it in its trials and troubles. We are a sentimental people and honour our great men, but the day has come when a fitting memorial should be erected, such as a park in the centre of the capital city where they would be given due honour. I am afraid this whole thing is being promoted in a narrow Party spirit and it is the irony of fate that the present Government, which stands for narrow politics, should have the handling of this affair to-day.

So far as memorials are concerned, is it not only just and right that we should erect one to the great Being who has watched over our country in this and in past generations, who has held our people together at all times? Is it not only right that we should erect, in the heart of our capital, a memorial worthy of Christ Our King? Here we are fighting over politics and patriots, but Christ Our King is above them all. He has preserved our people and our country. It would be only fitting if we erected, in our capital, a great memorial that can be floodlit at night, so that it will be clearly visible to ships coming to our country from all parts of the world. That would be one way of uniting our people. It might help to put an end to all the fighting and bickering over men, who are very small indeed, when compared with Christ Our King, who is above us all.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is quite irrelevant.

Captain Giles

When will the Government honour the great men of our own day? They told us when they took down the monuments to Griffith and Collins in Leinster Lawn——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is again irrelevant.

Captain Giles

I want to know when will the Government honour Griffith, who was a great follower of Thomas Davis?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was told that he is quite irrelevant. He may not go any further in the discussion of irrelevant matters.

Captain Giles

Davis was a great man and after him came Griffith. Griffith built the edifice——

An Ceann Comhairle

Now, if the Deputy cannot keep within the rules of order, he will have to resume his seat.

Captain Giles

What has happened the Collins and Griffith memorials? When will they be re-erected?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat.

Captain Giles

It is not fair to this country that there is no memorial to a man like Griffith. I hope the Government will give us an answer to that. Griffith laid the foundation——

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat?

Captain Giles

I have said what I wanted to say.

An Ceann Comhairle

That may be clever, but it will not work again.

Mr. Derrig

I sympathise with you, a Chinn Comhairle, in the display of thoroughly bad Parliamentary manners, and the discourtesy to which you have had to listen.

Mr. Coogan

From the Fianna Fáil Benches.

Mr. Derrig

The Deputy who spoke last, who has shown his contempt for order in this House and has insulted the occupant of the Chair, can claim that he got a lead from the Deputies who spoke before him and who had to raise their voices and work themselves into a state of agitation over the proposal that is before the House. The position last night was that Deputy Cosgrave welcomed this Vote. He expressed the wish that more money ought to be spent upon scholarships and educational projects. I explained the position to him in the short time at my disposal. I had no desire to interrupt him, but it was obvious that he had not read my statement or he would have seen that provision was made for scholarships. It was quite obvious that the Deputy was accepting the Estimate and the proposals of the Government in the same spirit in which we were putting them forward; that is, as a genuine and sincere attempt to commemorate the memory of the Young Ireland Movement and, in particular, of Thomas Davis, in a worthy and fitting manner.

Apparently, if the Party opposite had been associated with the project, it would have been quite all right, but because it comes from the Government there is something entirely wrong about it, something suspicious about it, and Deputies, while on the one hand suggesting that it may have something of good in it, cannot say that the Government, when they go out to honour Irishmen who have occupied a prominent place in our country, are doing anything disgraceful. But they practically say that in other words when they accuse us of doing this for Party purposes.

In all countries it is the custom to honour great men of the past on suitable occasions. There is not a proper spirit in this country about that. If there is an attempt to change the name of a street to commemorate the memory of an Irish patriot, there has to be an agitation and a popular movement may not be successful. We are not depending now on popular movement to commemorate the memories of heroes and patriots and scholars and statesmen of the past. We have a Government, and the initiative in this case has come from the Government, and rightly so.

It is quite possible to set up a committee. The municipality is dealing with one portion of this celebration. The proceedings on the first Sunday will be under their control when there will be the laying of a wreath on the Davis statue at the City Hall. That will be the municipal part of the week's functions. In order that these be done in a worthy manner, we consider that the Army and the Defence Forces could very rightly be brought into them. On the second Sunday there will be a military parade and a wreath will be laid on Davis's grave at Mount Jerome. That military parade, or anything akin to it, can be undertaken only by the Government. There is no representative committee or no representatives of Parties who can make such arrangements. Only the Government, through the Minister for Defence, can make these arrangements. It was considered also that, in addition to the function for which the municipality will be responsible, and the military parade, there are other matters to be considered and it would not be sufficient to commemorate the memory of Davis merely by parades—that something more substantial ought to be done.

May I say at this point that the Government Party, to which Deputies have addressed themselves—a new form of address in this House, by the way—had nothing whatever to do with these proposals and has heard nothing about them? For some of these functions Deputies of all Parties will receive invitations. All Deputies will be treated on the same basis so far as we are concerned. If Deputies will regard the different things that are being done, they will see that, in the long run, even if there were a committee, considerations arise such as what Parties or bodies are to be represented on such a committee and what bodies are to be excluded—is it to be confined merely to Parties in this House, or are Parties outside to be included and where will we stop? But, whether we have this committee or not, the responsibility for the carrying out of certain of the arrangements must, as I have indicated with regard to the military parades, come from the Government, through the Minister for Defence.

We have then the question of the bust—the question of the statue of Davis. The Government decided to take responsibility for this. An order was given for the bust, and I think that while it is open to any other committee to commemorate the memory of Davis in another way, or through statuary if they wish, I think it is more appropriate that the Government, through the proper Department, the Board of Works, should make an arrangement of that nature. It is the body best fitted and most likely to view the whole matter in an objective manner as to what is fitting and proper, not what is best from the political point of view.

We have then the question of the ceilidhe. I do not know whether the Deputy who referred to jollification has any justification for suggesting that ceilidh the are sources of jollification. I should not think they are. I think that, as regards dancing festivals, ceilidh the are probably much less sources of jollification than any other type of dancing. There is no justification for suggesting that anything beyond what is necessary and proper and meet will take place at ceilidhthe. If, for example, the representatives of foreign states in this capital are invited to these entertainments, what is fitting and proper in the circumstances in their regard will be done, no more and no less—just what is customary. The same applies to any other guests who may be there. I think it comes very badly from Deputies to suggest that there is any question of jollification or anything else. They know very well that the great majority of persons invited to these functions are invited purely on account of the position they hold—in their official capacity—and not on account of themselves personally, and, to a much lesser extent, on account of their political persuasions. Cómdhail Náisiúnta na Gaedhilge was asked to undertake the work in connection with Irish Day. A ceilidhe mór will be entrusted to them, and also the aeridheacht on the second Sunday. Is there anything political about that? We are all supposed to be interested in Coláiste Náisiúnta na Gaedhilge. We have spoken on the same platforms. Occasionally I do not know whether Deputy Mulcahy has any qualms about Coláiste Náisiúnta na Gaedhilge.

General Mulcahy

Indeed I have, when I listened to the Taoiseach and the Minister speaking on the same platform saying utterly different things.

Mr. Derrig

The Deputy went and spoke on that platform and when a Vote for the support of the organisation comes on he rather questions it.

General Mulcahy

When did I do that?

Mr. Derrig

You suggested, perhaps, that we were not getting value for the money being given.

General Mulcahy

I also questioned why we should give public money to an organisation like that, when the Taoiseach and the Minister were on the platform and said that we must get rid of English and things as silly as that.

Mr. Traynor

Not as silly as what the Deputy said.

Mr. Derrig

Nobody can say that this is a political organisation. Anybody can go in to Coláiste Náisiúnta na Gaedhilge, and, no doubt, the reason the Taoiseach and others were asked to speak on the platform, as representing the Government of the Irish people, was that they would like to have them give a lead in the matter, and would expect, when we are going to revive the Irish language, that it would be necessary for the Taoiseach or Minister not alone to do what is necessary through the usual Government channel, but to tell the public that they have certain work to do, and how they should do it. That was my understanding of the position. There is a question about the Book Fair. That has been an annual event organised by the Dublin publishers and booksellers and on this occasion it has been organised by them also. We gave them certain assistance. I daresay the majority of the booksellers are not politically the same way of thinking as the Government. That question has not arisen. We come then to the question of the purchase of pictures. A committee has been set up consisting of the heads of the institutions associated with art as well as a number of other persons, members of the Board of the National Gallery, to prepare a scheme to deal with the purchase of pictures.

General Mulcahy

Are these new pictures or existing pictures?

Mr. Derrig

I did not interrupt the Deputy. I suggest that this committee has no political affiliations whatever. It is a purely official one. Coming to the question of scholarships, one would imagine from Deputy Cosgrave's statement that the whole of this money was being spent on wreaths and memorials. The fact is that if a scholarship, somewhat on the lines of the travelling scholarships awarded by the universities, is founded—which is our intention — to be awarded each year, provision is only made for one scholarship, and perhaps not one in the present Estimate. Anybody can see that the capitalised value of a scholarship or studentship of £200 or £250 a year runs into several thousand pounds, since it will be continued. Obviously it will be necessary to have the university authorities come into the matter. The intention is that in the matter of awarding scholarships those fitted to deal with the question will undertake the framing of the scheme. My Department is getting into touch with the university authorities through the appropriate channels to frame this scholarship.

Last year we agreed to subsidise the National Film Institute of Ireland. We have taken steps for that body—which cannot be represented as a Fianna Fáil body — to undertake the preparation of a suitable film worthy of the occasion. It is quite possible that the cost of the film will run to nearly half the amount provided. It all depends on what the film will be. As regards expenditure, the position is that about one-sixth, £1,500, will be spent on the encouragement of Irish paintings. The capital figure for the annual scholarship may run up to £4,000 and of the film it may run up to £3,000 or £4,000. It all depends on the extent to which facilities can be provided in the time to turn out a decent national film, worthy of the occasion.

As to sculpture, provision is only made in the present Estimate for a bust and plaque, a partial provision of £500 for the public memorial, the amount comes to some £850; literature £775; encouragement of the language, and entertainments and functions in connection with that £476. We see that the money is being distributed in order to bring home to our people the activities in which Young Ireland was interested, and to re-awaken, if that is necessary, greater interest amongst the people in these activities at the present time. It will be admitted by any person who examines the question and approaches it in an unprejudiced way, that any steps that have been taken are purely official. The matter has been dealt with in a purely objective way. Committees have been set up without any regard to political affiliations, and solely because there was a body there already or an institution, which seemed the appropriate one to deal with the particular scheme.

The citizens of Mallow took steps some years ago to have a commemoration of their own in regard to Thomas Davis, and they selected—and were they not entitled to select?—the leader of the Irish people, the person who was regarded as the spokesman of Ireland, not only at home, but throughout the world, to come down and address them. Who is better fitted or better entitled to speak for Young Ireland, who is more worthy to represent the spirit of Young Ireland in the world to-day than Eamon de Valera? The citizens of Mallow, of their own free will and voluntarily, organised a function there and brought the Taoiseach down there. They recognised him as the appropriate person for the occasion. Let us take the people of Mallow as a cross-section of the people of this country, and we can soon know whether their feelings in the matter are more closely in accord with the feelings and wishes of the Irish people as a whole than those whose diatribes we have listened to to-day from the other side of the House. The Irish people have given these gentlemen their answer time and time again, and still they cannot learn the lesson. Why, we have to have a general election almost every six months, and still we cannot teach them manners.

It is the intention of the committee that in Waterford, Mallow, Newry and in any other centre with which the Young Irelanders were associated similar celebrations, on a local scale, of course, should be undertaken, and if local committees like the committee in Cork are set up to deal with the matter we shall be very happy to give them any assistance possible. We should like if more were done in that direction, but I should like now to take the opportunity to say that wherever an effort is being made locally, while we would like it to be spontaneous and would like the people themselves to undertake it and carry it through as they have done in Mallow, we are prepared to give them any assistance we can, consistent with the fact that our chief obligation is to make the Dublin celebration thoroughly worthy of the occasion; not only worthy of the people whom it proposes to commemorate—those great spirits of the Young Ireland movement—but worthy of a people that has attained, in very substantial measure, at any rate, the objectives which the Young Irelanders set before them. In the last 100 years we have made advances. We are not denying credit: we give credit and we give thanks to all those in the present time, no matter to what Party they belong, who helped in the achievement of these objectives, and I hope they will all participate, and I am sure they will see, if they examine the question in a calm mood, that there is no effort at political propaganda or seeking for Party advantage, but that it was a spontaneous coming forward of the Government to do what they felt they were in the best position to do; to do what they felt rested upon them to do; to do what they felt the Irish people would expect them to do, because whatever other committees would have been set up, am I not correct in saying that the public would have looked to the Government to give a lead in the matter and would have expected the Government to make definite arrangements, to give, perhaps, certain entertainments, to have certain things done, not only from the point of view of awakening public interest, which is important, but also to bring out the meaning and spirit of young Ireland?

There is no use in unveiling statues or laying wreaths, I agree, if we cannot awaken in the public mind the meaning of these symbolic events, and we are trying to do that. These processions, monuments, and so on are really symbolic, and we are really trying to call to the minds of our young people what these great men of the Young Ireland movement did, and I hope, as I have said, that when the time comes, we shall have the co-operation of all Parties. In spite of what has taken place here to-day, I can assure the people opposite that we are very anxious to have their co-operation. We should like to have them all represented, and particularly those related to the Young Irelanders by blood. We should like to have them prominent and to be seen and associate themselves with the celebrations. If they do not choose to do that, then that is a matter for themselves, but I think, a Chinn Comhairle, the House will realise that from the Head of the Government down to the most junior member of the Cabinet we all have only one desire, and that is to honour the dead in a befitting manner, and we feel that, for the time being at any rate, we represent the nation in a way that no committee, no matter how representative it may be, could represent it; that we, as a Government, are in a position to do things in a way that no private committee could do them, or that even a public committee could do them, no matter how representative it might be, and I hope that these celebrations will be welcomed in the spirit in which we have undertaken them.

General Mulcahy

I should like to ask the Minister a question. With regard to pictures or paintings by artists of Irish blood or Irish origin, is it the intention to purchase pictures already existing or to commission painters or artists to paint Irish historical scenes or events, as was urged by Thomas Davis himself?

Mr. Derrig

That is a matter upon which we have not come to a final decision. The committee is dealing with the matter and we are discussing with them at the moment what is the best kind of scheme to undertake. The intention is to deal with Irish historical events from, roughly, 1840 up to the present time. Many people would like to see the history of our own days adequately portrayed, but there are difficulties in dealing with big historical events in a worthy manner. The persons who are dealing with this matter are in touch with the artists and with the institutions of art, and I think they are competent to give us a good scheme. I cannot say more at the moment than that while the intention is that the subjects should be of historical interest the painters would be given freedom to illustrate the particular event either symbolically or otherwise, as they wish. We should leave it to the painter himself to decide in what way he can best represent the period or the event. With regard to the question of artists of Irish birth or origin, we hope that artists from all parts of Ireland will participate in the scheme, and probably artists from outside Ireland who have any Irish association. That is really the intention of the scheme, but the details have not been worked out. Probably, there will be an exhibition some time next year, and pictures which are exhibited there, if considered suitable by an advisory body, by a body of judges, may be purchased by the Government. I think that that is really all that I can say on that matter.

Mr. Coogan

As a member of the Dún Laoghaire Borough Council, I should like to say that I think the Borough of Dún Laoghaire should be given an opportunity of being associated with this matter. I understood from the Minister that it would be confined to Dublin and, as a member of the Borough Council of Dún Laoghaire, I ask that it be associated with this.

Mr. Byrne

I should like to know whether the people of Northern Ireland will be permitted to associate themselves with this. Will the men of the North who are anxious to join in these celebrations be given an opportunity to participate?

Mr. Derrig

That is a matter which I think I cannot answer now. If persons from Northern Ireland wish to join in a representative capacity—let us say, Deputies from Northern Ireland—I think that if their wishes are conveyed to the secretary, who is Mr. Moran, assistant secretary of the Department of Defence, such persons, in a representative capacity, will be invited, provided it is understood that, if you invite one person in a representative capacity, then you may have to invite all other persons in that category, so that everybody will get the same treatment.

Mr. Byrne

Why not invite them all?

Mr. Derrig

As regards Dún Laoghaire Borough Council, we shall look into the matter. In view of transport and other difficulties, we did not think that it was necessary to bring in other authorities in connection with the Dublin celebrations but Dún Laoghaire Borough Council is, no doubt, in a special position.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote reported and agreed to.