Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Jul 1945

Vol. 97 No. 21

Committee on Finance. - Johnstown Castle Agricultural College Bill, 1945—Second Stage.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. On the 3rd January, 1944, a communication was received by the Government intimating that Mr. Maurice Victor Lakin, of Horetown, Foulksmills, County Wexford, who had shortly before inherited Johnstown Castle and demesne, proposed to make a gift of the property to the nation. In the offer of the gift, he expressed a desire that it should be used as a State lay agricultural college. The Government accepted the gift with thanks and were advised that this acceptance should be regularised by an Act of the Oireachtas. Johnstown Castle is a well-known and historic residence in South Wexford. Its buildings are very fine and the estate is very suitable for the purposes of an agricultural college. It consists of about 1,000 acres. Leaving out of calculation a considerable portion which is under timber and a portion which is now, more or less, waste but which we hope to reclaim, there are about 600 arable acres in the holding. It is very well suited, as I have said, for the purposes of an agricultural college and also for the purposes of agricultural research, which we propose to carry out there to a much larger extent than is done at any other of our agricultural colleges at the moment. The castle itself is not eminently suitable as a college. Nevertheless, it can be used in its entirety; in fact, every room in the castle can be used and, by making certain adaptations it can be made very suitable for resident students. There are very fine gardens attached to the castle which will be suitable for the training of horticultural students. There are also many houses for workmen and farm buildings which, on the whole, are in very good condition.

When I was dealing with my Estimate I spoke of the necessity for providing additional agricultural colleges. I do not want to go over that ground again, but I want to give a brief resumé of the position. We have three State agricultural colleges —one at Athenry, one at Ballyhaise and one at Clonakilty. In addition, there are four colleges run by religious institutions which receive help from the State—two by the Salesian Fathers in Limerick and Meath; one in Mount Bellew by the Franciscan Brothers, and one in Monaghan by the diocesan clergy. This college, when added to the list, will make eight in all. In addition, there is provision for students at the Albert College, Glasnevin, which is conducted by the National University. It has been felt for a long time that we required more accommodation of this kind, particularly in the south-eastern part of Ireland, so that, geographically, Johnstown Castle is very well placed for our needs.

It will be realised by the Dáil, from what they have already learned and from what I am saying now, that the gift is a very valuable one so far as the nation is concerned. I should like at this stage to express to Mr. Lakin and to Mrs. D.V. Jeffries, of Carrigbyrne, who has an interest in the land and is associated with Mr. Lakin in making the gift, the appreciation of the Dáil of their generosity in making this gift, which can be devoted to such a useful purpose.

The gift of Johnstown Castle is subject to certain conditions which are laid down in the Bill. These relate to the making of provision for existing employees on the estate, the preservation of the general ornamental nature of the grounds, the maintenance of the right-of-way to the private cemetery where the Fitzgerald family have been buried, the reservation of the fishing and sporting rights to Mr. Lakin and the release of death duties already paid on this estate —and on this estate only. I mention that because there was some misunderstanding about it. A number of small matters are also dealt with. The Bill contains sections providing for these conditions and implementing them generally. The preliminary arrangements for the transfer of the property were embodied in an agreement and a copy of the agreement is attached to the Bill. A copy of the conveyance by which the property will be conveyed is also attached. This has been executed by the owners and the Bill seeks authority from the Dáil to have it executed by the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Hughes

On behalf of this Party, I join with the Minister in expressing appreciation of the generous and practical gift to the nation by Mr. Lakin and his sister, Mrs. Jeffries. It is a very useful gift and I hope it will be used to good purposes. I agree with the Minister that there is one thing in which we are seriously lacking— educational facilities for the agricultural community. On occasions here, we stressed that aspect of the problem in the past. When we speak about competition in outside markets, this question is definitely forced upon us. We are handicapped to a considerable extent because other countries have the advantage of a high standard of agricultural education, notably Denmark. It is computed that, in Denmark, one in five of the agricultural population gets a special course in agricultural education. The Minister has pointed out that we have three other State colleges — Athenry, Ballyhaise and Clonakilty. Of course the Albert College is a State college also under the control of the National University. There are a number of other colleges in the country but when one compares the number of colleges here, where our primary industry is agriculture, with the number in Great Britain—quite a number of counties in Britain have colleges of their own—one realises the lack of educational facilities in this country.

There is very little in this Bill beyond the necessity to indicate acceptance of the gift and our principal duty in accepting the gift is to express our deep appreciation of the generosity of the donors. The Minister has not given the House any information as to how he proposes to constitute the college. He might say now whether it is his intention to bring in a further Bill or whether he proposes to operate and constitute the college under Section 3 of the Act.

Dr. Ryan

There will be no further Bill necessary.

Mr. Hughes

So far as the acceptance of the gift and the conditions relating to it are concerned, we are in absolute agreement with the Minister. We are very lucky to have such generous citizens in this country, especially people who appreciate the necessity of providing educational facilities of this sort. It comprises a very desirable farm of a substantial acreage and, as the Minister has pointed out, it is situated in the southeast corner of the country where such facilities were not available heretofore.

I cannot agree with the Minister that a second Bill is not necessary. I think that the facilities provided in the college should be limited to a particular area. What is really wrong with our educational facilities, so far as agriculture is concerned, is that we try to lay down general principles for the whole country when, in fact, these general principles are not applicable at all to certain areas. If we take Sweden as an example, they got over that difficulty of trying to apply general principles throughout the country by setting up right along the whole length of the country six or seven agricultural colleges with research facilities that were suitable to the localities in which the colleges were situated. We can appreciate immediately the enormous value that was to the agricultural community, because it afforded an opportunity of studying problems peculiar to the particular district in which a college was situated. It seems ridiculous to expect that the scheme of this particular Bill, even under the most favourable conditions, is going to solve many of the soil and fungoid problems that are peculiar to certain parts of the country. I want to suggest to the Minister—it is my idea and I do not know whether he agrees with it or not—that the facilities in this college should be limited to the investigation of problems which are typical of the area in which the college is situated. Our aim in the provision of colleges of this sort should be to provide an institution to solve problems that are typical of that particular area.

So far as control is concerned, the Minister is taking wide powers here to constitute this institution according to his ideas and the ideas of the Department without consulting anyone. Whether he intends merely to appoint one director and run the college in the ordinary way, I do not know, but I think the time has come when we should change our ideas in this respect. I think it is absurd to rely on one director. He may be a very efficient director and he may make it a very successful institution but I do not think it should be run by one director. I suggest that it should have three directors, one representing the Minister's Department, another representing the scientific side of agriculture and a third representing the practical side of agriculture—a man who has a knowledge of the agricultural problems awaiting solution in that particular area. If we are going to get research in this institution carried out in a really earnest way, we want that particular type of man to engage in research work. Sir Edward Hall, who was responsible for setting up the research institute at Rickmansworth, stressed that aspect, as to the characteristics of the type of man wanted for that purpose. He pointed out that he should not be worried by the problems associated with teaching, that he should be in a position to devote his entire attention to research and, if necessary, to bring in students occasionally and to explain to the students what his work involved and the solutions that he hoped to achieve.

So far as the constitution and the control of the institution are concerned, I very strongly appeal to the Minister now that he should bring in a second Bill to deal with that matter, that we should have three directors, one representing the Minister and his Department, another representing the scentific side of agriculture and a third representing the practical side of the industry. I suggest to him that it is not wise to appoint only one director. He may prove to be a good, middling or indifferent man but once you appoint him it is rather difficult to remove him from office. If we are going to take full advantage of this very generous and practical gift and show that we fully appreciate the spirit which prompted it, much will depend on the control and the constitution of the college. There is nothing of a contentious nature in the Bill. The conditions that are applicable to the gift are just the normal conditions that the donors are entitled to insist upon —conditions relating to the pensions of old servants, the provision of housing facilities for the district nurse, etc. These are merely the normal facilities that you would expect a generous donor to put forward in order to satisfy himself that these old people who have served him well would be looked after for the rest of their lives. I am surprised that the Minister has informed the House that he intends to bring in no other Bill. I would ask him to reconsider that matter so that we may have some measure relating to the constitution and the government of this institution.

Mr. Cogan

I should like to join with other Deputies in thanking the donors of this estate for the generous gift which they have given to the Minister and, through the Minister, to the nation. I feel that very valuable work can be achieved through this new college but there is need in setting up a new college to see if it is possible to approach the problem of education from perhaps a different angle than that of the existing colleges. The Minister has indicated that he considers that there are not a sufficient number of agricultural colleges in the country. He has also indicated, and quite rightly, that he believes that the place where this proposed college is situated is admirably suitable. Since the Minister claims that this Bill gives him full authority to go ahead and constitute the college, I want to ask if this new college will be exactly similar to the colleges already in existence, or will it seek to specialise in some particular branch of agricultural education or to cater for a particular type of agricultural student?

We all know that one of the defects of agricultural education through the various agricultural colleges is that most of the pupils enter these colleges with a view to securing a job of some kind, with a view to becoming civil servants in the Minister's Department or inspectors in some Government Department. Would it not be desirable to make it clear from the very outset that the fundamental object of these colleges is to educate the best possible type of young farmers and to send the students who qualify in the college back to the farms to become the best possible practical farmers? If the college, from its inception, were to have that ideal before it and were to inculcate that ideal into the minds of the students and to establish the tradition that it was mainly, if not purely, intended to be a college for boys whose intention it is to take up agriculture as a means of living, it might be a step in advance of any of the agricultural colleges already established.

The Minister takes fairly wide powers in this Bill. The section which gives the Minister authority to set up the college is very brief and very vague, and I assume that the Minister will claim that it gives him all the power he requires, but I think he should in his reply give us some indication as to the lines along which he intends to conduct this new addition to our agricultural colleges. There is no doubt that the situation of the college is very good. Wexford is a good agricultural county and it adjoins a number of good agricultural counties, and no doubt the Minister will have no difficulty in securing for it the best possible type of students, but it is very desirable that the material which will be available should be moulded in the best possible way.

I thoroughly agree with Deputy Hughes when he suggested, I think, that the Minister should bring into the directorship of the college people outside his Department. There should be at least one thoroughly experienced practical farmer on the governing body. Such a farmer might not have a detailed knowledge of the running of a college, but he would at least be able to give very sound advice as to the manner in which agricultural education should be conducted and able to keep a very close eye on the practical side of the running of the college farm and the manner in which the various subjects were taught. I think it an admirable suggestion which should be accepted by the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

Everyone, I have no doubt, welcomes the establishment of an agricultural college in Johnstown, which is primarily designed to educate farmers. Year after year, at the Public Accounts Committee, we used to discuss the adequacy of the accommodation available for farmers' sons who wanted to be trained, and year after year we were obliged to reach the conclusion that, although there were some independent colleges and some State-controlled colleges, there were far more applicants for admission than there were vacancies available. What was even worse was that the experience of the college authorities was that the bulk of the students presenting themselves did not aspire to be farmers at all, but hoped to become inspectors in the Department of Agriculture or under some local authority.

Some Deputies may know that recently the diocesan authorities of the diocese of Clogher established outside the town of Monaghan an agricultural school, because, in their experience, a great many students coming up to their diocesan college wanted the kind of education they could get in what might be described as an agricultural secondary school and there were no vacancies in the existing establishments wherein to accommodate them. I believe that at present dozens of young fellows, for whom their parents want some education better than they can get in the primary schools, are being sent into the diocesan colleges and other secondary colleges to learn academic subjects because there is no place to which they can go to learn scientific agriculture. I find it hard to understand how, in a society such as we have here in Ireland, after 25 years of self-government, we still find ourselves unable to provide accommodation for the girls who want to be taught how to run a home and for the boys who want to learn how to run a farm.

Johnstown is excellent, but are we to understand from what the Minister has said that he proposes to rest on his oars once Johnstown has been set up? Would I be unreasonable in suggesting that if we had an academic secondary school in every diocese in Ireland we ought to have an agricultural secondary school as well? I know that lots of people blame parents for sending boys into secondary schools and say they would be much better employed in sending them to business or giving them some practical type of education rather than in thrusting an elaborate academic education on boys who manifestly will never make full use of it; but the dilemma of parents is that there is no place to send children, and if they do not send them to a secondary school for an academic course, the children must be content with what they have been able to pick up in the primary school.

I am not asking for the expenditure of money. I believe that if you established a good agricultural college in every diocese in Ireland, on a modest scale to begin with, but in such form that you could easily expand it as the demand for admission grew, you would find that they would be self-supporting units very quickly. I believe you could run an agricultural college in this country at a rate of £40 a pupil. I think that such a pension per annum would make the institute pay, more especially as you would be growing all the food consumed in the institution on the premises, largely with the labour of the students who were themselves learning technical agriculture. Then the county councils, I have no doubt—I see the chairman of the Roscommon County Council over there, looking very interested—would help by increasing the number of county council scholarships available to the students of primary schools who want to study agriculture. That would be good business from their point of view, because if the holdings in their respective counties can be improved and an increased revenue extracted from them they may reasonably anticipate in years to come that a larger revenue for the local authorities can be derived from the improved holdings, and the people living on them.

When the Minister is concluding to-day I hope he will tell us that he regards Johnstown as the first step in his plan to provide an agricultural college for every diocese in Ireland. I choose the diocese, because it is common knowledge to us all that at present the vast majority of farmers' sons seeking secondary education go to the diocesan college, and it will be convenient administratively from every point of view if we make the area upon which the college draws for its pupils the diocese in which the college is situated. It has this additional advantage, that if you can make the boys from one parochial or diocesan unit associate with one another in childhood, and make school friendships in the course of their education, you are laying the foundation for the kind of parochial co-operation which was envisaged by those who have tried to establish parish councils in this country. I think parish councils are good things. Furthermore, if neighbours' sons, side by side in an agricultural college, learn there the advantages of co-operation for the production and sale of their produce, it facilitates the promotion of that co-operation thereafter if you preach it to individuals who know one another well, who have learned to understand one another, and to trust one another. One of the great difficulties of getting co-operative plans to work in rural Ireland— the co-operative user of machinery, schemes for co-operative selling, schemes for co-operative marketing— is that traditionally, unfortunately, particularly in the West of Ireland, where holdings are small and history has played its part, neighbours are not very trustful of one another's bona fides in any pooling plan. Everybody is very vigilant to see that his neighbour does not get more out of the pool than he gets himself and all are solicitous to be sure that they are not persuaded to put more into the pool than the other fellow. That makes co-operation very difficult. Amongst friends, it would be very easy. That kind of intelligent friendship can be established in the diocesan colleges which I have in mind.

If Johnstown is a new point of departure for a wide and courageous programme on those lines, it will become a monument more enduring than bronze as the point from which really successful agriculture in this country started. One could talk for an hour on the necessity for this, on the importance of it not only to those who live upon the land but to every other creature who earns his living in this country. If we have upon the land of this country educated farmers, who know the best methods and who know the means whereby they can acquire the most efficient tools, in the widest sense of that word, for the profitable and economic exploitation of their holdings, then the standard of living of everybody in this country will ultimately rise. Should we face the post-war world endeavouring to work the land of this country by pre-war methods, we are going to become a very poor and miserable country. You cannot educate the people in a quinquennium. It will take a generation to put upon the land of this country a fully educated population of farmers. We have the duty to place within the reach of those men the resources that they are pre-eminently fitted to exploit if they once have them. Those colleges are the most effective means of doing so. Will the Minister tell us, in winding up this debate, that he regards Johnstown only as a start, and that he has plans to put a similar institution, albeit perhaps in the initial stages a more modest institution, in every diocese in Ireland?

Mr. O'Leary

Coming from Wexford, I wish to join in thanks to the owners of this great Johnstown estate, which I have no doubt will be of great benefit to the sons of farmers who study there. I would ask the Minister, if there is any redundancy amongst the old employees, to ensure that his Department and the Government will see that those people, who gave great service to that estate, will be fully compensated.

Dr. Ryan

I do not think Deputy Hughes is on very firm ground when he talks about further legislation, because this legislation is only necessary in order to accept the gift. If we bought that particular property, I do not think any legislation would be necessary, because it would just be taken over and given to the Department of Agriculture to administer as a college. All the things that Deputy Hughes advocated here can be done under existing legislation, if it is thought desirable to do them. I must say that my mind is running in the same way as Deputy Hughes' mind on some of the points that he mentioned at least. Deputy Hughes and other Deputies will have an opportunity, of course, from year to year, of discussing how Johnstown is being run, because Johnstown Castle will now be in the Estimates like all the other colleges, giving the costs by way of staff and other things, and, under Appropriations-in-Aid, the receipts from the college. If it should be necessary to do anything special with regard to this college, I take it there may be even separate heads, or perhaps separate Supplementary Estimates. I am not sure, but it may be necessary.

As far as administration goes, the authority for administration and so on is the same as it is for the other colleges. It will be administered in the same way, though perhaps with a somewhat different policy or on somewhat different lines. For instance, as I have mentioned already, we intend to have more research done there than at the other colleges. In fact, in time anyway, we intend to have a special soil science research department there. We hope to have almost immediately facilities for soil analysis there, and to proceed then to soil research. The soil research that is done in Johnstown may not be applicable to the whole country—Deputy Hughes is right in that—but any knowledge that may be gained from soil research there will be useful, with the necessary modifications for any other part of the country. Wherever we settle down to do soil research there will be the difficulty that we will not have exactly the same kind of soil elsewhere, but still any knowledge we will get will be useful. Deputy Hughes suggested that this college should be confined to students from a certain area. Assuming, I think, that we have a certain type of farming conditions there, with regard to climate and soil, he suggested that we should draw the students from the surrounding counties where the soil and climate are roughly the same. Well, without having to agree entirely with Deputy Hughes that the soil is the same in the four or five counties around, the college will, in fact, be confined to students from the four or five counties around.

Mr. Hughes

I do not want to be misrepresented. The soil is not the same, but, generally speaking, the general conditions are.

Dr. Ryan

I agree with Deputy Hughes that if we take a farmer's son from Carlow or Kilkenny he is more likely, generally speaking, to meet with much the same soil in Johnstown as he is familiar with in his own county than he would be in Ballyhaise or Athenry. As a rule, students from surrounding counties go to the nearest college, although I do not think we have ever made an absolute rule about that. It is possible, of course, that you might find a student from Donegal in Clonakilty, and a student even from Cork not in Clonakilty but in Ballyhaise. Generally speaking, the students go to the nearest college. If we had enough colleges we might, if we thought it advisable, be more strict about that, but as we have had only three colleges up to this we could not make any such ruling.

I suppose Deputies are fairly familiar with the staffing in the present colleges. There is a director or a principal; he has a house master or two with him; they, of course, are qualified men, like himself, and they do the teaching part of the business. The principal looks after the farm as any farmer would. He manages it. He looks after the students as the president of a college would, so that he is fully in charge both as regards the farm and the students. The house masters act under him in training the students. There is also, as a rule, a horticultural teacher. He teaches the boys some gardening. There is a poultry instructress who teaches the boys something about poultry. She also does some dairying and teaches the boys how butter should be made. All the staff is under the principal. I am afraid that whatever we may call the man in charge in Johnstown, one man must be in charge. We are hoping to have a much bigger staff there than in the other colleges. We have put a rather ambitious programme before the Department of Finance, for which we are hoping to get approval. We will have there a research staff dealing with soils as well as the ordinary staff, such as that which deals with the students in the other colleges. In addition, we intend to have there a bigger horticultural school than we have in any of the other colleges, for the reason that we have very good gardens in Johnstown. That means that we will have to have two staffs there as compared with one staff in the other colleges. Even while that is so one man will have to take charge. It would not be possible to have, as it were, three directors, each one having authority. There will be one man, of course, in charge of research, one man in charge of teaching the students, but one man would have to be in full charge of all.

Mr. Hughes

You could have an advisory body.

Dr. Ryan

I am afraid that would raise further difficulties. I am not in a position yet to say how far we may succeed with the programme we have put before the Minister for Finance. I am afraid we will have to wait until the Estimate comes along from the Department of Agriculture before the staffing of Johnstown can be fully discussed. All that I have mentioned can and will be done without a Bill. It will be done in the ordinary administrative way, but it will come up here for discussion year after year.

I am afraid that it will not be possible this year—that is, starting in September next—to do more than make a start with the horticultural school at Johnstown. The reason is that we have found it impossible to get certain alterations carried out and certain amenities installed that would be necessary before we could bring a number of students there. We could probably bring in eight or ten students without making the alterations we have in mind. In view of that, we think the best thing to do is to make a start with the horticultural school in September next, with, say, eight or ten students, and hope to make a start with the agricultural school in the following year. In the meantime, the research part of the business could be got going. There is no electric light, for instance, in Johnstown Castle, and we are finding it very difficult to get electric light installed there. If we were to contemplate having a large number of students there is not sufficient or adequate sanitation.

Mr. Corish

I thought they had electric light in the castle.

Dr. Ryan

It is gone. They had an old engine which was driven by water power. The place was only partially lighted and the system that was there is useless. As Deputies know there is not in these old castles sufficient sanitation for a big school. It will take some time to put that right. In addition, there is no central heating there. I think that to run a school, such as we have in mind for Johnstown, it is almost essential to have central heating. You could, of course, accommodate a small number of students without those amenities. If you had, say, one teacher and eight or ten students you could improvise in regard to light, central heating and so on. But what I have said represents the best that we will be able to do in the coming year.

With regard to one question that was put by Deputy Dillon, I do not think that the proposal in this Bill represents the end, or that the establishment of this college is by any means going to make college accommodation generally adequate. The experience is that more and more boys are each year looking for places in these agricultural colleges. I do not mean to say that there is a big surplus awaiting places. The number disappointed each year is small, but at the same time the number is increasing. I think we should look forward to the time when we will be able to fill three or four more colleges if they are available. I think that Deputy Dillon has given very good advice to some of the diocesan authorities in Ireland, and I hope that some of them may adopt his advice, as they have already adopted it in the Diocese of Clogher. If not, it will be up to the Department to do something special by way of the provision of colleges.

Mr. Dillon

The Department, I take it, is prepared to help the diocesan authorities?

Dr. Ryan

Definitely. With regard to the point that was raised by Deputy O'Leary, I think that it is hardly necessary at this time to impress on any Minister the necessity for looking after employees in case any changes take place in Johnstown —there are not likely to be any—in the way of looking after employees working there for years who, for any reason, have to be laid off. As a matter of fact, when they come to a certain age they are provided for by way of pension or gratuity, and during a period of sickness it may be assumed that they will be treated with every consideration.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

Dr. Ryan

I would like to have it now if there is no objection.

Mr. Hughes

The only objection I have is that, on the Committee Stage, I want to raise the matter of control. I am anxious to have control not merely centred in one individual but to have control in the hands of three directors. I want to have the practical mind brought to bear in the direction and control of the institution. I think that if the Minister were to turn that idea over in his mind he would see the advantage of it. Simply because a precedent has been established in the case of some of the other colleges, I do not think we should continue to follow that system. If you are depending on one man, he may be an exceptionally fine man and may do his job exceptionally well; then everything is all right; but if we are unlucky in our choice we may find it very difficult to get rid of a man who is mediocre. I suggest that we should not centralise the control in one individual. Will the Minister undertake to look into that aspect and do something about it?

Mr. Dillon

Every public school in England has a governing body.

Dr. Ryan

But they are not owned by the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

It does not matter, but —not to make a smart point——

Dr. Ryan

It is not a smart point, but that is the difficulty.

Mr. Dillon

I see the difficulty, but there is that point in Deputy Hughes' case. Take the headmaster of any big school in England. He is, rightly, the supreme authority in the school, but at regular intervals he meets his board —quarterly or half-yearly—and reports to them and, if they are not satisfied, they can take action. In this case, where the Minister is the ultimate authority, I would imagine the appropriate action for the board, if they were dissatisfied with the way the director was running the school, would be to acquaint the Minister that they were uneasy.

Mr. Hughes

That is what I want done.

Dr. Ryan

I think the Deputy should have raised that point any year for the last 25 years, or whatever length of time he is in the Dáil. Why was not that point raised?

Mr. Hughes

Are we not making progress, developing new ideas? I had not that idea five years ago, probably, but I have it very strongly to-day.

Dr. Ryan

It is a thing that should be considered separately. This is a Bill to hand over this estate. It goes in as an agricultural college. If the Deputy has an idea like that, I suggest it would be better to raise it separately, that for all agricultural colleges we should have advisory committees.

Mr. Hughes

Are we not getting an opportunity of starting here, at any rate?

Dr. Ryan

It is a thing that we would want to give very much more thought to.

Mr. Hughes

Section 3 reads:—

"As soon as conveniently may be after the passing of this Act, the Minister shall establish on the estate a lay agricultural college and may for that purpose do all such things as he considers necessary".

He may, in fact, set up his nominal company, for all I know. He has given the House no information. He is not bound and he can do anything he likes under that section.

Dr. Ryan

No, the Minister cannot do anything he likes.

Mr. Hughes

I do not want to go to the trouble of putting in amendments to this Bill, if the Minister is prepared to meet us on it. That is my point. We will give him the Bill if he tries to meet us on it.

Mr. Dillon

You could leave it over until to-morrow and we will undertake to give you the Bill to-morrow.

Dr. Ryan

All right.

Mr. Hughes

What about the amendments?

Mr. Dillon

I want to make it easy. I think Deputy Hughes is right and I do not want to pretend that he is unreasonable. I do not think he is.

Dr. Ryan

There was a point made. I think Deputies have a wrong idea. Of course, I cannot do anything I like. All I can do under this Bill is to establish an agricultural college, like any other agricultural college. For instance, I could not pay a person outside the Civil Service to do a thing under this Bill. I can only employ civil servants.

Mr. Hughes

That is what I want to get away from.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy wanted to get on to that in respect of the national stud.

Mr. Hughes

The Minister says we can raise this on the Estimate. I do not want the Minister to commit himself to employing an individual and putting him there with absolute control, as director, subject to his Department and to control by the Minister. I want a board of directors, the principal to be responsible to that board, and the board, if they are not satisfied with the way the institution is being run, can bring the matter to the Minister. I want, above all, that there should be three representatives —a representative of the Minister's Department, a representative of the scientific side of agriculture, and a representative of the practical side of agriculture, to watch and to be satisfied that things are being done properly in the agricultural interests of the district. Surely we are not tied for all time to the methods that are at present in operation.

Mr. Dillon

This point apparently wants ventilation. Would not it be much simpler for Deputy Hughes to ask the Minister to take the Bill to-morrow? We will give him an honourable undertaking to give him the Bill to-morrow—all stages—and Deputy Hughes can put down an amendment on that one point, at least, that the Minister shall appoint a board of governors to be responsible to him and to whom the director will be responsible. Let us have it to-morrow, in Committee, and give the Minister the rest of the Bill.

Mr. Hughes

Very good.

Committee Stage ordered for Friday, 13th July.