asked the Minister for Justice if he will state when Clonmel Gaol was built, and what is the type of (1) the cells; (2) the outdoor recreation and exercise accommodation; and why it was thought desirable to remove the Borstal Institution from Clonmel to Cork in the first instance.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Clonmel Gaol.
asked the Minister for Justice why he has decided to transfer the youths in the Borstal Institution to Clonmel Gaol; whether his decision was consequent on the sale of part of the Borstal premises in Cork to the University College, Cork; and if so, at whose instance was this transaction undertaken.
Mr. Boland
I propose to take Questions 37 and 38 together.
They are two separate questions.
Mr. Boland
I propose to take them together, with your permission, Sir.
You ought not to take them together.
Mr. Boland
That is what I propose to do.
Wait a moment now. On a point of order.
Mr. Boland
Is the Deputy going to answer the questions or am I going to answer them?
On a point of order, A Chinn Comhairle, I submit that the nature of these questions is such that they should receive separate answers and I ask you to withhold from the Minister for Justice your permission to answer them jointly.
The Deputy may ask them separately but how the Minister will answer them, I cannot say.
May I take it that you withhold from the Minister your permission to treat these questions jointly and direct him to give separate answers to the separate questions?
I am not withholding from the Minister the right to answer. I have no control over how they are to be answered. The Deputy can ask them separately. That is all I can do.
Mr. Boland
I propose to answer them jointly, Sir, and in no other way. If he does not like them that way, I will not answer them at all.
You will have to answer them.
Mr. Boland
I say I will not. I will answer them as I want, not as the Deputy wants.
You will have to answer them. I ask Question No. 37.
Mr. Boland
If the Deputy does not want an answer, I will not give it to him. The Borstal Institution was removed from Clonmel to Cork in 1940 because the premises at Clonmel were then taken over for defence purposes during the emergency period.
God forgive you.
Mr. Boland
It was never intended to leave the institution permanently in its present quarters in Cork Prison. The decision to return to Clonmel, now that it has been vacated by the military, until something better is available elsewhere, is based primarily on the fact that the accommodation at Clonmel is better than the accommodation at Cork: there is about an acre of ground for outdoor exercise and recreation and large rooms for workshops, classes, refectories, and indoor recreation.
An additional reason for leaving Cork is that the prison there is needed for short-term local prisoners.
The proposed lease to University College, Cork of a portion of the Cork Prison ground does not affect the matter; the return to Clonmel would be proceeded with even if that lease were not in contemplation.
The cells at Clonmel are somewhat smaller than those at Cork, but they will be used merely as sleeping cubicles. The boys will leave them at 7 a.m. and will not go back to them until they go to bed at 10 p.m. I have seen these cells and I am satisfied that with certain improvements, which are being made, they are suitable for the purpose in view.
Is it not true that the cells in Clonmel Gaol are stone cells, the floors and walls of which are stone, designed for the incarceration of short-term prisoners in the early part of the last century? Is it not true that the Minister has stated, in this House and elsewhere, that in his considered judgment the accommodation at Clonmel was grossly inadequate and that he was resolved to remove the boys out of it, even to Cork Gaol, rather than leave them where they were?
Mr. Boland
That is not so. As far as I recollect the walls are stone, but I am almost certain that the floors are wooden. In fact, I am certain of that. I had the idea that the place was very bad. I do not recollect ever having stated so publicly, but I got the idea very largely from hearing Deputy Dillon condemning the place. I decided to have a look at it for myself, and I am perfectly satisfied that, pending the erection of a more suitable building which I hope will be undertaken as soon as possible, Clonmel is better suited for the purpose than Cork prison, apart from the fact that we want Cork prison for short-term local prisoners. I am perfectly satisfied with that and I invite Deputy Dillon to have a look at it when we have it ready and not to assume that I am trying to take a retrograde step. I ask him to go there when we have it ready. I also ask any other Deputy who takes an interest in this matter to have a look at the premises when we have them ready, and then say whether I am right or not.
Arising out of the Minister's reply is it not true that he has received from divers sources the strongest representations against the scandalous inadequacy of the accommodation in Clonmel as a Borstal institute? Is it not further true that, in fact, the authorities of Cork College applied to the Taoiseach to assist them to prevail upon the Minister for Justice to withdraw from the Cork prison premises part of the ground which had been used for exercise and outdoor recreation for the Borstal inmates, and that as a result of that pressure brought to bear on the Minister for Justice by the Taoiseach a lease was granted of a deduction of a grant of land from the premises of Cork prison which makes it impossible to retain the Borstal inmates there any longer and forces them to go to Clonmel?
Mr. Boland
That is not true.
It is.
Mr. Boland
I say it is not true.
I say it is.
Mr. Boland
It is not true.
It is a shameful transaction.
Mr. Boland
Undoubtedly we did lease portion of the Cork gaol grounds to the university. That is true, but that had nothing whatever to do with this. Cork prison is not a fit place to keep anyone for a long term. Portlaoighise is the place for them.
Who is comparing Cork with Portlaoighise? Portlaoighise is a servitude prison.
Is the Deputy asking a supplementary question?
Why has the Minister suddenly determined, having made up his mind some years ago that he would move the boys to Cork, to bring them back now to Clonmel?
That question has already been answered.
Mr. Boland
I answered that.
It is a dirty, shameless transaction.
Mr. Boland
I protest against that sort of language. I answered in my reply that Clonmel was taken over by the military, and for that reason the boys were sent to Cork.