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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Mar 1947

Vol. 104 No. 18

Adjournment Debate. - (Standing Order 29)—Flood Damage in Kilkenny.

I have been granted leave to move the adjournment of the Dáil for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the widespread, acute and unprecedented distress and devastation caused by flooding in Kilkenny City, Thomastown and other areas, requiring the immediate provision of finance and supplies. In doing so, I want to assure the Minister and the House that I am actuated by no sense of partisanship and I am not moved in any way by Party motives. I am endeavouring to put before the House and the Minister the views, as given to me, of citizens of all classes and of all shades of political opinion.

I should like, first of all, to address myself to the picture which I saw in Kilkenny and Thomastown. In Kilkenny City three out of four city parishes were affected by the flooding which took place on the morning of the 13th of this month and continued right down to St. Patrick's Day. In that city John's Street, John's Quay, Irishtown, Watergate, Blackmills and the vicinity of the Black Abbey were inundated in most places to a depth of from eight to ten feet. Some 191 dwellinghouses had to be evacuated. A big number of these dwelling-houses are definitely dangerous to human life and their structure at present is such that there is grave danger of a number of them falling. Many of them have been shattered and split in two and, in those which are structurally sound, the condition of things is so appalling that it will take many weeks to clean up the débris and to dry out the houses. All classes are affected—shopkeepers, traders, owners of workshops, artisans, middle-class people, ordinary workers and, of course, the poor.

I do not want to weary the House with details, but I must say that the conditions which I saw appalled me and would appal any person who visited the various places affected by the inundation. I saw stretches of strong walls, eight to 10 feet high, for perhaps a distance of 30 yards, swept by the raging torrent as if it were mere cardboard or paper.

I saw dwelling-houses completely gutted of all family possessions, personal belongings, furniture, kitchen utensils—everything was gone. I saw the small workshops of artisans who depend for their livelihood on their daily labour in their homes. I saw their equipment swept away by the flood. There was nothing left to those people, not even the clothes they wore the night before. Many of them to-day are standing in their neighbours' shoes and wearing their neighbours' clothes. Their own clothes were swept away by the avalanche which hit them around midnight.

Many of the shops in John's Street, in Irishtown and in Watergate have been completely gutted. Everything in the shops, counters, shelving, stores, stocks of all kinds, have been swept away. Ricks of hay and straw were lifted up and swept through the gates. Many of the gates were swept off their hinges and piers and walls were knocked down. It is a scene of desolation in these areas. All the business records of the traders are gone; all the ration cards are gone, all the coupons are gone, and all the supplies are gone. The situation is such that these people are unable to carry on under the ordinary system of control which prevails. They have to depend upon the goodwill and the charity of their colleagues in the various trades to give them the supplies necessary to meet the demands made upon them by distressed people.

All red tape had to go by the board. These people have had to help one another as best they could in the appalling circumstances in which they found themselves. I saw small printing works smashed up. The Black and Tans in their most evil moments could never have created the havoc that was caused in some of these printing works. The principal bakery in Irishtown is out of commission, and will be for many days. The gentleman who owns that bakery has to keep his customers supplied with bread which he has to buy from colleagues in the trade. He has to pay the weekly wages of his workers who are idle, to the tune of £60 a week. The local brewery has been completely smashed. All machinery in the brewery is knocked about to such an extent that it is impossible for anybody but an expert to say whether or not that machinery can be put in motion again. Some of the mills are affected by the water. The stocks of corn, oats and wheat in them are affected by the water and it will take a long time to dry these stocks again.

The trouble in Kilkenny has been caused not so much by the Nore as by a small river called the Breagha. The Breagha comes in two forks down behind Parliament Street, under Parliament Street and under the brewery and apparently the bridges on the Breagha are so low and old fashioned that any abnormal rise of water cannot be taken under them. Immediately there is a rise in the Breagha the bridge eyes fill up and the water must get out somewhere. On this occasion the water got over the bridges and flooded the area all round. The walls were broken down everywhere. They acted as barriers for a time and the water banked up against them. Then the walls gave way and a raging torrent came right down through the back yards and the gardens at Blackmills and in the Black Abbey vicinity. It came right through the back doors of dwelling-houses and traders' shops in Irishtown, Lower Parliament Street and Watergate as far as Green Street and swept everything before it.

I have seen shops completely gutted out as far as stock, shelving, counters and all that are concerned. There is nothing left in the barbers' shops. In the barbers' shops there is not even a basin or a mirror left. There is an appalling situation in Kilkenny City at the moment.

In Thomastown, the Mall, Market Street and Mill Street were completely inundated. I have seen the water marks in the dwelling-houses and shops right up to the ceiling of the first floor and, in some cases, it passed the ceiling of the first floor and was going on to the second floor. I was not able in the time at my disposal to get a completely accurate picture of the situation in Thomastown. I saw a number of houses and I saw a number of shops. I got an intelligent citizen to calculate for me the number of houses affected. He got as far as 74 and he could not think of the names of the rest, but he assured me it was well over 100. The pavements in front of these shops and houses was torn up as if they had been blitzed by an atomic bomb. The counters, the shelving, the presses, the furniture and the stock were left in an indescribable condition of chaos. Most of it went in the flood because when this emergency arose inside the houses men in their nakedness had to go, at the risk of their lives, with hatchets to force the doors open in order to get this tidal flood out and when that happened everything in these houses below the first floor went with the flood.

Some of the people affected are exNational Army men, recently discharged. Some of them had married and spent their gratuities in setting up a house and home and in the purchase of furniture, clothing and bedding and all those other essentials that go to make up the home life. Everything that these men had is gone. They have not even to-day the clothes they were wearing the previous day. They are depending on the charity of their neighbours for the loan of suits. The position is utterly appalling. I cannot for the life of me see how these men— particularly the smaller artisan who had his business in his own home and the worker who resided in his own home—are ever going to rehabilitate themselves in life without some assistance from the State. The amount of damage done in loss of property to the poor, to the worker and to the middle-class runs into several thousands. I cannot at the moment give any idea of the amount to the House because I had not time to go into the matter in detail and it is impossible at the present time to estimate the damage that has been done to personal property, to dwelling-houses and shops, to traders' stocks and to household furniture. All that has gone. Small traders who have lived in the City of Kilkenny and in Thomastown with small capital are completely without their capital to-day. Their capital, which was sunk in stock, has gone. I do not know how these people are going to attempt to make a livelihood in either Thomastown or Kilkenny unless the State comes to their assistance. I certainly cannot see how the worker and the artisan are going to carry on unless the State is prepared to help them to rehabilitate themselves in some way. Briefly, that is the position. I do not want to overdraw the picture but the Minister for Education personally visited these areas and he saw everything that I saw.

In the Dunmore, Jenkinstown, Three-castles and Ardloo area it is impossible to get any information at the present time. Nobody can say what the plight of the farmers in that area is. I have been informed that some of the places there are under eight feet of water and people are living in the top storeys of their houses. What the position is as regards their stock, implements and land generally I cannot say and nobody will be able to say until somebody can get into them or they can come out to us. These farms were inundated last year on the 12th August. The people there are experiencing their sixth flood. On the drainage motion I gave particulars of the losses which these men incurred last year and I asked the Minister for Agriculture to come to the rescue in some way by giving some relief this year. I asked for a special investigation of their conditions with a view to giving them some relief under the Tillage Order this year. A chief inspector was sent down and made an investigation. He was very sympathetic. But I was informed yesterday morning by a young man who got out of the Dunmore area that he has got his orders to till the same quota as last year. These men will be lucky if they can till at all this year but they will till again at the risk of once more losing their crops. Most of them lost all or the greater part of their crops last year. I want to appeal again to the Minister for Agriculture to reinvestigate the problem now as it exists after the past week's inundation.

The immediate problem is a serious one. It is the problem of getting food, fuel, cement and commercial timber to these areas. All books and records, writing cards and coupons are gone and the Minister for Industry and Commerce can only act on the basis that certain quotas have been fixed. These quotas must be rushed immediately to Kilkenny and to Thomastown. An emergency committee has been set up in Kilkenny and a similar committee has been set up in Thomastown. These two committees are investigating the problem of supplies as well as the problem of distress. They will report with a complete list—if they have not already done so—of the traders' position and of what is needed now to get them going and to keep them going. Men in the Thomastown area assured me that for four days they had no food. There was no bread in the area because they depended on a local bakery which is now out of commission.

The owner of this bakery is a young man of initiative and he has succeeded in getting bread from Kilkenny by means of a lorry. The bakery in Thomastown is urgently in need of coal to dry out the ovens. If the baker there can get a couple of loads of coal from Castlecomer forthwith he will, in a couple of days, be able to start baking again. To that extent relief would be afforded to the people in Thomastown and to a certain degree to the people in Kilkenny, because the people in Thomastown are depending on Kilkenny for their bread at the moment.

Commercial timber is required for many things. I have told you that the scenes inside these houses are scenes of utter and complete devastation. Partitions, flooring — everything has gone, everything is torn up and tré-na-chéile. Timber is needed to put these homes into a habitable condition so that the people can return to them. Cement is urgently needed in Thomastown because the people are terrified to go back to their homes until cement protecting walls are built at the backs of their houses. The walls have gone and the people have assured me that they will not go back until they are rebuilt. No woman or child could be expected to go back in present circumstances.

The Nore is still very high and is still in raging flood. It has subsided from the streets, but it is still well over the banks. Thomastown people have evacuated their homes and are depending on the charity of their neighbours for shelter. Many of them are depending on the charity of their neighbours for food. Practically all of them are depending on the charity of their neighbours for the clothes they wear to-day. Now, we cannot stay too long with our neighbours or our friends. Little situations arise which become irksome and people begin to feel that it is time the visitor left. That situation will arise in Thomastown—as it has arisen in every household at some stage—and unless immediate steps are taken by the local authority, by the health authorities and by the State to make these homes immediately habitable, then these people will have to be evacuated elsewhere. In Kilkenny we have been successful in getting the military barracks to help us with the evacuation problem. The central hospital has also been placed at our disposal.

A number of these people will never go back, particularly in Kilkenny because they have been so terrified by their experience they have made up their minds never to return. Others who left their homes are endeavouring to clean them up and to dry them out so that they can go back as quickly as possible. They go out from the evacuation centres daily to do that job. Many of them are so disgusted with the size of the job and so disgusted with the repeated inundations they have had to suffer there that they will not go back. They are sick and tired of the whole thing.

They have made up their minds that here and now the matter must be set right. They say:—

"A crisis has struck us. It is the gravest crisis that ever struck us. It is a visitation from Providence, but we are going to use this visitation from Providence to ensure that the State and the local authority will come to our rescue and will put us beyond the reach of these floods in future."

You cannot blame these people for taking that point of view. You must sympathise with them when you remember that the women and children had to be taken from the upper stories of the houses at the dead of night in Thomastown and were in grave danger of being drowned were it not for the bravery and skilful management of the men manning these cots. These people's nerves are so shattered from that experience that they are not going to risk it again. They have definitely made up their minds on that. That situation has got to be met but it is beyond the control of local funds. It is too vast a problem for the local authority or for local charity. Surely to goodness, in this Christian age, people should not be placed in the position that they are dependent on the charity of their neighbours to rehabilitate them in their daily lives? Much, nevertheless, is being done by way of charity and His Lordship the Bishop of Ossory has set the lead in giving a subscription of £100. I say that, even if we get £20,000 in that way it cannot accomplish very much in alleviating the position of the people affected in Thomastown and Kilkenny.

You have there a housing problem that has got to be dealt with at once. Flooded homes have got to be put into temporary shape so that the people can go back to their homes. Many of the houses in Thomastown are in a very poor structural condition. I have seen cracks in the foundations and in the walls and the people are terrified that the houses will collapse on them, particularly in Mill Street. I doubt if the people will risk going back to these houses, and homes will have to be found for them somewhere. Whatever homes are there can be made secure by cement and timber and that job will have to be taken in hands at once. It is not a job that can be carried out by the ordinary routine local administration, and it is such an urgent job that the Government must come to the aid of these people.

The health problem is a very serious one. The sewers are choked as a result of the flooding and many of the houses will not be free of water for months. Many houses will have to depend on the Nore getting back to a normal level. It will be only then that the damp in these houses will seep out. There is ground damp affecting the floors for a distance of from six to 12 feet which cannot seep out for many months. Traders have had their cellars flooded and without pumping apparatus, it will be impossible to get the water out of these cellars for three or four months. All their stock is meanwhile lying in the cellars.

I was disappointed to-night listening to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance speaking on the drainage motion—gravely disappointed. I never heard such a futile speech in my life. Faced with the problem we have to face in Kilkenny and having put the picture of Kilkenny before him on the 12th of the month, two hours before the floods rose, all he could tell me to-day was that he cannot envisage the time when it will be possible to undertake a survey of the Nore. As I asked him to-day, are we in Kilkenny to wait until there is a holocaust of human life to shake the inertia from which he suffers into some form of action? He told us that the policy was enshrined in the Act of 1945, and that they would not be stampeded——

The Deputy is now referring to the drainage motion on the Order Paper on which a decision has already been come to.

I am coming to the question of the relief measures that are necessary, and I think certainly that something will have to be done. I am saying now——

In a non-partisan spirit, as the Deputy promised us.

I have not used one word in a partisan spirit. I listened to the Parliamentary Secretary, who is suffering from complete inertia and I saw no hope of a drainage policy ever emerging from him. I can assure the Minister that the people of Kilkenny will have to energise somebody to do something or grave happenings will take place there. However, I want to say this, that in putting forward these demands I am not attempting to stampede the Parliamentary Secretary because I feel it would be impossible to stampede him. I feel that if there was a stampede at the moment, in which we would all join, he would not have sufficient energy to join in it. He contented himself with reading the Drainage Commission Report and suggesting that we could not have piece-meal development.

The Deputy is now replying to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary who concluded the debate on the motion.

I shall say no more on that line but I do want to put this view. Arterial drainage as envisaged in the Act of 1945, was purely a problem for the relief of farmers whose holdings were being flooded. Our problem in Kilkenny is both an agricultural and a public health problem. Owing to repeated flooding over a number of years, it has now become an acute public health problem as well as becoming an acute agricultural problem. The urban areas are suffering so much from these repeated floodings that many cases of consumption in Kilkenny and Thomastown can be traced to these inundations. Ground damp will follow repeated inundations and in Irishtown, Green Street and the area round the River Nore, you can find ground damp. You can see the marks of previous floodings and many people are suffering in health as a result. As I have said, much of the tuberculosis existing there can be traced to it.

It is essential to my mind that this matter should be tackled as a public health problem. Breagha river will have to be diverted or these old bridges will have to be removed. A number of bridges can be removed as they are not necessary to traffic. The Nore is choked with old weirs or mills that are not used, with sallies, scrubwood, with islands and old trunks of trees. I want to suggest to the Minister that, as a temporary measure, all these obstructions in the river must go. We must get the Nore moving at Kilkenny. For a mile above Greene's Bridge you will find the river obstructed with sallies and rubbish of all kinds. At Greene's Bridge two eyes of the bridge are closed up and an island has been formed. I understand that through the negligence of a previous surveyor that condition of things was allowed to happen. The extraordinary fact is that this bridge, which should take the water from the Nore in high flood, has actually two eyes closed at the moment. Surely that is not a job that should await arterial drainage.

Whose job is it?

I do not care whose job it is.

I am asking the Deputy whose job it is.

I suppose it is the job of the local authority—I do not know— but a bit of dynamite and a few labouring men could do a lot with the River Nore. I do not say that tackling local jobs on the Nore is the right way to do it, and I know that, if you remove a big obstruction at one point on the river, you may create a new problem further down; but I say that there is an essential problem there of getting the river through Kilkenny as fast as possible, and at present there are numerous obstructions above and below the city which ought to go, particularly these old weirs and mills which are right across the river, with the result that islands are forming there. A few sticks of gelignite would do a lot.

I am sure that other Deputies want to speak on this matter, and I do not propose to delay the House, but I want to put it to the Minister for Industry and Commerce that, so far as the supply position is concerned, he should appreciate that we cannot carry out the ordinary regulations at the moment. It is impossible. The people have to help one another as best they can at the moment, and they are doing it, as the Minister for Education is aware For some weeks to come that position will obtain and the Minister will have to give a certain amount of latitude to the local committees and local traders to meet this emergency. I am sure he will do that, but I feel that, between the local authority and the State, money will be found to rehabilitate these people, whose capital has been lost, and particularly the small traders, who cannot afford the loss of capital and cannot raise credit.

I feel that the Minister for Finance will have to raise money to put the worker back in his home and give him his kitchen utensils, his little bit of furniture and his clothing. These are all gone, and I say that task is beyond the reach of local charity and probably much beyond the reach of the local authority.

It is an appalling visitation. It is an act of God, I know, and it is unprecedented, but I think that we are the worst sufferers on this occasion of flooding—I really believe we are—and I feel that some form of compensation must be devised, particularly for the small trader. There is no way of insuring against this risk. No insurance company will undertake this risk of flooding. I have put it to traders and I find that the premiums are so high that it would simply break them to attempt to pay them. I do not know whether some system can be evolved, pending the drainage of the Nore, by which a State-aided insurance could be arranged for these people, to give them some hope that their problems will be solved in the future, if such a visitation should come again, and let us hope it will not.

Arrangements have already been made to allot a certain amount of coal for the drying of houses. Many of these traders will need coal to dry out their cellars, their stocks and their shops. The brewery will need coal and the printing workshops and other places will need coal and, of course, the bakeries will need coal, if they are to get going at all. I want to urge the Minister as forcibly as I can to cut out all red tape, all rules and regulations, and to send somebody or a number of persons down to Thomastown and Kilkenny, to deal on the spot with these matters, to take on themselves the job of investigating them on the spot and supplying the needs there and then, because if we are to wait for the ordinary administrative machine to function, I am afraid there will be more serious distress there than prevails at present.

It is an occasion for extraordinary measures and I am appealing for these extraordinary measures. Some have been taken already and, in raising this matter, I am putting just a bird's eye view of the situation, so that it cannot be said later that the Government had not a full appreciation of the position. Therefore, I appeal, in particular, to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to meet us in this matter of food, fuel, timber and cement supplies, and to get them rushed to Kilkenny and Thomastown as quickly as possible. I want the Minister for Agriculture to come to the relief of the suffering farmers along the Dinan and Nore, and I want the Minister for Local Government to come to the rescue of the householders whose habitations are now ruined—some for ever—and cannot be reoccupied. I want him to take whatever measures can be taken to put these people back in their homes immediately or as early as possible.

I have raised this matter of the drainage of the Nore so often that I am sick and tired of it, but I want to stress that the people now have made up their minds that somebody has to do the job and that, if they will not do the job, they ought to get out and make way for those people who are prepared to do it. Again, I want to stress that, although the Minister did think I was taking political advantage of this position, I am not.

I can assure the Minister that many of the suffering people whose cases I have seen are not supporters of mine. I can assure him, on the contrary, that they are supporters of his Party and I can assure him that many of the farmers who are suffering are supporters of his Party. I am speaking for them, as well as for the workers and my own people. Every class in the community are agreed on this. Every class in the community are demanding drastic and immediate action and every class in the community are expecting it to take place at once.

I support the appeal made by Deputy Coogan. I was speaking to a friend from Kilkenny and he told me that an earthquake could not have created greater havoc than these floods have created in Kilkenny and Thomastown. Deputy Coogan has left very little for anybody else to say. He has put the position clearly and fully, and I rise merely to support him and to ask the Government to do something and to do it quickly, to scrap all rules and regulations which are useful and necessary in normal times, but which must be scrapped in face of an emergency. I know what it is to deal with people who have been flooded out. Year after year certain parts of Dublin are flooded, and generally what is wanted is food, fuel and clothing and a little money to help the people involved over their difficulties. Whether the Government have power to give such money, I do not know, but, as the authority in charge, they have, I say, power under any emergency regulations they like to introduce, to provide food, fuel and clothing, and, later on, to compensate them for the losses they have sustained.

I want to remind the House and the Minister that there are such things as Sweepstake funds for hospital purposes. These funds could be used for the 100 families who have lost their homes and who may shortly become hospital patients, either temporary or permanent. Before they become hospital patients the Government should appeal to those with money to come to their rescue. I suggest that if the Red Cross Society, the Sweepstake authorities, the Government and the local council combine, they can ease the burdens of these people, arising out of the recent flooding. I know a very big number of Kilkenny people and I can say that they are a decent, hard-working body of people, who now, in their hour of need deserve not alone the support of our own part of Ireland but of the 32 Counties.

It was not my intention to intervene in this debate but for the fact that I recall that our Government has in recent years secured the reputation of being one of the most generous Governments in Europe in the matter of providing both funds and goods for those in distress. We have now reached a stage at which our Government should realise the truth of the saying that charity begins at home. Never in my five years' experience of this House did I hear a more sorrowful story presented as that presented by Deputy Coogan to-night. It is a story of facts, as I am sure the Minister for Education will tell us, arising from the serious flooding in his constituency.

It is the bounden duty of the Government to look after those people who are in distress. Our own people come first. In no other part of the country is there the state of affairs that exists at present in Kilkenny. I represent a constituency neighbouring Kilkenny and I know that the statements that have been made by Deputy Coogan are true. It is the duty of the Government to compensate those people. It is deplorable that those people should have to return to their homes, without furniture, without clothing and in many cases without a proper home to return to. It is something to which the Government cannot close their eyes. It would be greatly appreciated if, instead of directing their attention to the distress in Europe, they would direct their attention to the distress that prevails at present in Kilkenny. It is regarded by the country as the Government's duty to look after the interests of these people.

If the Government want money for this purpose, I am sure all they have to do is to apply to the House and I am convinced that from this side of the House the Government will receive no opposition to the provision of funds for the relief of the deplorable state of affairs in Kilkenny.

I have so often spoken of the Nore in this House that I am beginning to feel completely weary of making appeals to the Government to have the drainage of the Nore carried out. This year an appalling state of affairs has arisen. What will be the position next winter? Are the people of Kilkenny and Thomastown and even of my constituency—where they are affected but not to the extent Deputy Coogan has indicated—to suffer as a result of the neglect of the Government? I believe it is neglect on the part of the Government that is responsible for that appalling state of affairs and I am of the opinion that if a proper scheme of drainage were put into effect on the Nore many of the very grave hardships that are being inflicted on these people would cease.

It is only right, as Deputy Coogan has pointed out, that a message of deep appreciation should go from this House to His Lordship the Bishop of Ossory who has certainly played a man's part in helping the distressed people of Kilkenny. He has shown by his generous subscription to the relief fund that has been opened his very deep interest in his flock in the diocese of Ossory. I hope that his appeal will receive the response it so richly deserves. I am sorry that the Government are leaving it to the people of Kilkenny and to the generosity of private individuals to finance the people in order that they may return to their former means of livelihood. It is the bounden duty of the Government—and the Minister cannot deny it —to see that compensation is paid to those people for their loss. We should be deeply grateful to God that there was not a severe loss of life. When there is some huge loss of life in Kilkenny or some other town the Government will wake up to their responsibility to take proper action.

I believe there is a tendency on the part of the people of Kilkenny, Thomastown and South Laoighis to take the law into their own hands and one cannot blame them in the terrible distress that has come upon them. The Government must take action. If they do not want to take it, let them get out and let somebody else in who will take the responsibility of relieving these people in the terrible plight they are in at the present time.

I do not think that Deputy Coogan has greatly exaggerated the consequences of the disaster that fell on Kilkenny and Thomastown during the past week. It is, I think, well known that the floods of the week caused very widespread damage and loss in many counties but their consequences in Kilkenny were probably greater than elsewhere because they were more concentrated in their effect. It is, I think, to the credit of the people of Kilkenny that local initiative responded immediately to the needs of the situation and that effective action was taken by individual citizens and organisations of citizens to bring relief to those who have suffered from the flood.

An emergency committee was established, consisting of representatives of the Chamber of Commerce, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Red Cross Society, and other organisations, and made immediate arrangements for rendering all possible aid to those who had to vacate their homes and others who were seriously affected by the floods. From the reports that have reached the Government it is obvious that splendid work has been done by that committee, as was done by similar committees in other towns and districts affected by flood damage. That committee helped to co-ordinate the efforts of governmental and other authorities to bring the needed aid. The Department of Defence, through the Curragh Command, made available a quantity of beds and blankets from the Kilkenny military barracks. The board of health made temporary accommodation available and also a supply of beds and bedding at the Central Hospital. A number of the families who had to vacate their homes are being given temporary accommodation in the married quarters of the military barracks and the immediate action taken to cope with the crisis does, I think, reflect very favourably upon the spirit of self-help and neighbourliness amongst the people of Kilkenny. I think the same is true of Thomastown. The information available to me would suggest that, relatively, the consequences of the flood were even more serious at Thomastown than in Kilkenny and a substantial number of traders there have been involved in heavy loss.

It is true that the bringing of immediate relief to the sufferers is only a part of the problem created by the floods. The advent of the disaster drew attention to many courses of action which should be taken to prevent the possibility of its recurrence and there are, of course, for the families and the traders concerned, also long-term problems. A request was conveyed to the Government, through the Minister for Education, on Tuesday last, to authorise the purchase of coal for distribution to persons in urgent need of fuel, and authority to purchase 50 tons of anthracite was granted. I understand that the distribution of that coal is being undertaken by the local St. Vincent de Paul Society. To the extent that coal was needed to dry out grain stocks which had been inundated, authority was also issued to firms from which represen- tations were received. I should like, however, to remove any impression that the prompt issue of the permits for coal to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul or the traders concerned indicates a position in which coal supplies are ample to meet requirements. Everybody here knows that that is not the case. Our coal stocks are almost on the point of exhaustion and the diversion of even these limited supplies of coal to purposes which were not contemplated some days ago inevitably necessitates that other essential purposes for which the coal was being reserved will be deprived of it. It is unfortunate that this disaster fell on Kilkenny and on the country generally because, of course, the damage done by the flooding was not confined to Kilkenny, at a time when we were passing through a major fuel crisis in which our power to render immediate aid was consequently very limited.

I have received no representations that there has been a general breakdown in the distribution of bread or flour. I received from the Minister for Education a list of firms which had particular difficulties and I have arranged to have these difficulties investigated and removed to the extent that it is in my power to do so, but, properly ignoring the exact requirements of the regulations, arrangements were made by the traders, bakers, and millers to make available supplies which, I understand, were ample although some distribution difficulties may have arisen. Neither have I received any application for special supplies of foodstuffs for bringing immediate relief to distressed families.

If there is need for such immediate relief I would be prepared to grant facilities to charitable organisations catering for distressed families to obtain supplies of rationed foodstuffs. Apart from the question of compensation for losses, efforts are being made to facilitate the resumption of trading by firms which have been affected by the floods. An officer of my Department will be in the area to-morrow and will endeavour to ascertain precise details of the position of individual traders. It is necessary and desirable that the matter should be dealt with in a systematic and businesslike way and I would particularly ask for the cooperation of local traders' organisations. I understand the local traders' organisation in Kilkenny has already been active in endeavouring to take stock of the position and to see precisely what is required and it is, of course, very largely upon the advice of such organisations that the officer of my Department on the spot will act.

With regard to the question of financial aid, the House is aware that proposals that the Government should provide compensation out of public funds for losses due to flooding or to exceptional weather conditions have been made before in respect of other areas but that in no case have these proposals been adopted. I think it is obvious that if the precedent were to be established now it could not be departed from and we would have to contemplate a situation in which there might be repeated claims of a similar nature which would undoubtedly be advanced and which would have to be admitted. Losses due to abnormal weather conditions, flooding and other undeserved causes, arise frequently for traders and individuals and it would be a very serious step for the House to establish the precedent that in all such cases the general taxpayer should be obliged to provide compensation in cash. Over the whole country there are many thousands of people, I think it would not be inaccurate to say tens of thousands of people, who have lost heavily by reason of bad weather and flooding in the past month and in the past year. It is not possible for the Government to concede financial assistance to meet such losses in one area or for one class of person without conceding it to every area and to every class.

The proposal to provide money out of public funds to compensate people in Kilkenny for their losses is a proposal to place a tax upon other people in other areas who have also suffered losses and who in many cases could advance an equivalent claim for compensation. Even during the past weekend floods occurred in other towns and, even if less widespread in their consequences and effects than in Kilkenny and Thomastown, nevertheless they imposed upon the individuals concerned losses of a similar kind to those suffered in Kilkenny. Yet from none of these places has there come a proposal that the State should provide cash compensation. I think that the principle of asking the general taxpayer to relieve local communities of the burden and obligation of helping their neighbours in distress is one that we should be slow to admit. There is undoubtedly an obligation upon a local community in such circumstances which could be and should be met by local initiative and effort. I am aware that that effort is being made in Kilkenny and, to the extent that cash assistance is considered desirable, I feel sure that an adequate sum will be raised by the voluntary local effort which is proceeding. I am convinced also that that effort should find support outside the area immediately affected because sympathy with the people of Kilkenny and Thomastown who have endured such losses is very widespread indeed. I think it is necessary to make it clear that the Government does not propose to establish the precedent of asking the general community to meet the losses from flooding in Kilkenny.

I hope that the efforts which are being made in Kilkenny will enable many of the greater hardships to be alleviated and I feel sure that the local authorities there will not be remiss in taking such measures as are within their power to bring comfort and assistance to the people there. There is, of course, a necessity for re-establishing traders engaged in the sale of rationed goods, in ensuring that the regulations which are in force for the control of those goods do not operate to prevent them obtaining supplies and meeting the requirements of their customers, and all necessary steps to that end will be taken.

For the purpose of the repair of houses I think I can assure the Dáil that there will be no difficulty whatever in providing ample supplies of cement. The position concerning commercial timber is very difficult and I would not like to promise unrestricted supplies of timber because, even in the abnormal circumstances that obtain in Kilkenny, the most rigid economy in timber must be enforced. Subject to that economy in relation to timber and other materials, supplies for the necessary repair work will be made available.

The situation that arose in Kilkenny, the flooding which affected both the town of Kilkenny and Thomastown, has, of course, occurred before and may occur again in similar abnormal weather conditions, and Deputy Coogan was right in stressing the importance of making long-term plans for their prevention or, at any rate, for minimising their possible consequences. I have complete sympathy with the people who, he says, having endured this experience recently, are reluctant to return to their homes. I think there is an obligation upon the local authority to make provision for alternative homes for the people whose houses have become structurally unsound, or those whose homes are so located that the possibility of flooding will, in bad weather conditions, always be in the minds of their inhabitants.

How could the local authority do that?

Housing is the responsibility of the local authority.

How can they meet this situation—what power have they?

I do not know that they lack any power but, if they lack power, that lack will be made good and the Minister for Finance, within the limits of his statutory authority, will give very generous financial assistance to the local authority for the building of new houses. I feel sure there will be little difficulty in ensuring that further financial assistance will be forthcoming out of the Transition Development Fund. Certainly I can say that any effort by the local authority to provide new homes for these people, more suitably located, will be amply supported by the Government, financially as well as in making available the necessary materials.

There is no point now in having a discussion upon the problems of arterial drainage. Every Deputy knows that spasmodic drainage operations, not properly planned, have in the past often created floods where flooding was not a normal occurrence. Many hundreds of thousands of pounds have been put into drainage schemes which were incomplete and which either failed altogether to achieve any alleviation of flooding conditions, or merely operated to transfer a minor flooding risk from one district into a major flooding risk in another district. It was because our experience over a number of years in arterial drainage work made it obvious that arterial drainage could not be done at all unless it is done in accordance with a complete and widespread plan, that a drainage commission was established and that commission's report was accepted without modification by the Government and was the foundation of the legislation passed some time ago.

To the knowledge of Deputies there are a number of reasons why arterial drainage cannot be done speedily. If it were in the power of the Government to solve all the drainage problems of the country by a wave of the hand or by some administrative Order, there would be little difficulty about getting it done. It is because it is necessarily a long-term business, involving examination over a period of time of the flow of water in the rivers and tributaries and the planning of the work so as to avoid the concentration of flooding at particular parts of each river, that it has to proceed slowly.

I was rather puzzled by the fact that, while Deputy Coogan spoke so emphatically about the need for speedy action in relation to arterial drainage, he stated that the main damage in Kilkenny was done by the River Breagha and was largely attributable to the unsuitability of the old bridges over that small river. I think that the local authority should be asked to take action immediately to remove unnecessary bridges which are impeding the flow of water and substitute more suitable bridges for those that have to be retained. I think I can undertake that the Minister for Local Government, within the limits of his statutory powers, will give financial assistance in that work. For my part, I will ensure that whatever materials are required will be made available.

Similarly, the Deputy's reference to the flow of water in the Nore being impeded by obstructions under the arches of bridges there would seem to indicate either that the experience of the local authority over a long number of years had created little need for the clearing of these arches, or that there was some failure to appreciate the necessity for keeping them clear. I do not believe, however, that the local authority will fail to take immediate steps to remedy that defect if the remedying of it would have any beneficial consequences in reducing the risk of flooding.

So far as all these matters are concerned, I can sum up by saying that the Government will give the fullest possible support to any plans made by the appropriate local authorities, either in relation to the provision of housing, the erection of embankments or cement walls to contain the flow of water, or the repair or reconstruction of bridges. Any practicable plans along those lines upon which the local authority propose to engage will be supported in every way. If the local authority feels that to carry out these plans it is necessary to obtain financial support from the Government, then such financial support will be forthcoming, within reasonable limits. Certainly any application from the local authority for financial support for these purposes will have the most sympathetic consideration. So far as the immediate problems of individuals are concerned, the emergency measures to cope with the urgent consequences of the disaster must obviously be taken on the spot. They are being taken on the spot by an energetic committee on which no organisation established by the Government could improve. Whatever help that committee requires will, if possible, be provided. I have not been informed that they have had any complaints in relation to the distribution of foodstuffs to needy people which has been impeded by the restrictions upon the sale of rationed goods.

If they have such complaints that their work, in order to be carried through successfully, requires that special facilities should be given them such facilities will be granted without delay. The bringing in of supplies to traders whose stocks have been destroyed is being undertaken where the necessity for it has already been brought to our attention and the problem that arises in that connection is being examined on the spot by an officer of the Department. Certainly I can give the House an undertaking that no red tape will hold up speedy action in that regard. In the case of traders in drapery goods and similar products speedy action is not so important, but the necessary measures to enable such traders to replenish their stocks will be undertaken.

In regard to all these matters it is clear that a local investigation of circumstances will be required and it is hoped that in that local investigation responsible traders' organisations will co-operate. The only aspect of this matter upon which I am unable to agree with the Deputy is the claim that public funds should be utilised to compensate people for losses due to flooding. That claim has been made in the past from other areas and will, no doubt, be made again in the future because we cannot hope that floods will not arise again at some time in the future. I think it is much better that local action should provide for the relief of hardship arising from such losses. Such local action is, in fact, being taken in Kilkenny. I believe that the local committee, which is taking action down there, is on the right lines and I should like to express my hope that they will receive generous and whole-hearted support, not merely in Kilkenny but from all parts of the country.

It seems to me, having listened to the Minister now, that the tremendous initiative and resource shown by the Kilkenny people in dealing with the actual flood— initiative and resource which were responsible, one might say, for the complete saving of life there in very extraordinary and difficult circumstances and developing into a committee for the purpose of standing over the situation—have rather encouraged the Government to wash their hands of any responsibility which would compel them to look frankly at the situation that exists there.

I think that is a most unfair observation.

I do not intend to be unfair, but I do say that that suggests itself to me and I would like the Minister to hear me. In the past it has always been felt that the Government cannot make the taxpayer generally responsible for loss and damage due to flooding, or any other disaster. I think that that fact has prevented the Government somewhat from coming too close to the Kilkenny situation in order to find out exactly the dimensions of the disaster that has overtaken the unfortunate people down there. It is possible that a disaster, whether through flooding, through fire, or through storm, could bring damage in some particular part of the country which could not be adequately dealt with by any local organisation or by local finances or by way of subscriptions, such as is being done in Kilkenny at the present time.

From the description of the situation in Kilkenny which we have had both in the daily Press and in the House here to-night from Deputy Coogan, I do not think we are in a position to say that the disaster in Kilkenny is of a kind which does not go beyond the limit with which we can expect local effort and local organisation to cope. The Minister has indicated that the disaster there has drawn attention to the many courses of action which could be taken to prevent a possibility of such an occurrence in the future. I do not know what the Minister has in mind, particularly in that regard, and he did not go into detail in the matter. He indicated that the immediate problem of supplies would only partially solve the difficulty there and that both families and traders would be left with long-term problems. If a certain number of families and traders are going to be left with long-term problems we have not yet envisaged the situation in all its aspects properly. I do not think we are in a position to say that such a situation can be met by locally collected subscriptions or donations of any particular kind from either local people, or even from the country at large. From the description which we have had I am rather wondering if a local committee, which will deal with the immediate and urgent problems in Kilkenny, is equipped at all to estimate accurately the particular damage done to houses, property, buildings and machinery and make a general assessment of the losses sustained.

I think that is something which the Government could not expect a local committee to do and I think all the resources of the Office of Public Works on the engineering and surveying side should be placed at the disposal of the committee in order to assess properly the damage done.

Here in the City of Dublin we had a problem in regard to bomb damage. In that case there was no question as to whether the State would accept responsibility for paying compensation both for the loss of property and for the loss of goods. Compensation was even paid in the case of people displaced from their work over a particular period. In recent years we have passed very, very rapidly into a state where the State has come to regard itself as a kind of regular insurance scheme for all its citizens. Now, there is a certain kind of damage which is passing in its effects. Land may be flooded but the flood will subside and the land can again come into use. That is not so in the case of household effects damaged or destroyed by flood. The people in Kilkenny and Thomastown and all these other areas cannot hope to replace their household effects—the accumulation of a number of years of effort—without undertaking an intolerable and superhuman burden. I think the State should take some responsibility for that and make some effort to help those people re-establish themselves. Damage by flood on such a scale as has taken place in recent weeks is something that cannot be insured against. The economic well-being of a city and a substantial part of the country is at stake and I do not think the State can entirely wash its hands of all responsibility.

I would ask the Government and the Minister not to make up their minds too quickly that the State cannot and must not provide financial assistance to rehabilitate these people. The small traders cannot re-establish themselves without substantial assistance of one kind or another. The fact that the Government would appear to have made up their mind that they cannot give financial assistance should not prevent them from taking some responsibility to make a proper survey as to the extent of the disaster. They should not fix their minds rigidly on the line that the Kilkenny problem is something for which they need accept no responsibility and that it is something in which they must not establish a precedent by offering financial assistance to recoup the people for the losses which they have sustained.

In a disaster of this magnitude—and I doubt if there were any occurrences throughout the country equal in magnitude to the Kilkenny disaster—when the loss is fully envisaged, and the long-term problem of the families, the traders and manufacturers, of whom the Minister speaks, is considered, I doubt if the State can get out of it. I would ask the Minister to provide the local committee with all the assistance the Government can give, which means all the assistance which is necessary, to get the people and traders in the matter of supplies over their present difficulties and that they will also put all the expert assistance they can at the disposal of the local authority so that the damage can be properly assessed. I think it is only then the Government can safely say that it is a problem that they can wash their hands of. From the description we have had of the disaster, I doubt if the Government can do that now.

May I suggest that, if at all possible, the drainage Department should send some of their expert engineers to consult with the local engineers so that something may be done as a temporary measure to help the people there? I am afraid that if something is not done there will be panic there if ever the river rises again. I know the official attitude is that drainage of the Nore must be dealt with on a comprehensive basis, but there are a number of responsible citizens in Thomastown and Kilkenny who believe that the removal of the obstructions from the river will improve the situation in both these towns. That may cause flooding of agricultural lands further down the river, but I am afraid that that will have to be faced in order to relieve Kilkenny and Thomastown. Even at the risk of that, I would suggest that this temporary work should be carried out, because the Parliamentary Secretary and his predecessor have indicated to us that there is no estimate as yet of the number of years that may elapse before the arterial drainage of the Nore can be undertaken. The situation is such that we cannot wait for that. I think that some special investigation ought to take place at once to see what can be done to relieve the situation which confronts the people of Kilkenny and Thomastown.

I shall suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should have the position examined, but it does not need any specialised knowledge to understand that the drainage of a river must begin at the estuary and that work up the river which merely expedites the flow of the water, until drainage work is carried out at the estuary, merely makes flooding more certain. Merely to take action, prompted by local apprehensions, and not based on scientific principles, might be an unwise course there. On that account, I feel certain that the engineers of the Board of Works would be very hesitant about recommending such a course until they were satisfied as to the consequences both in the immediate locality of the works and further down in the river.

The alternative is that if we have to wait from 25 to 50 years for the drainage of the Nore we have to face the problem of shifting a large part of the population of Thomastown and Kilkenny from their present dwellings. The people living in such areas as Watergate, Irishtown and John's Quay will have to be removed to the higher reaches of the city. We must either erect some protective works which would minimise the risk of flooding or rehouse some portion of the population.

Does the Minister not know that the high floods in recent weeks have developed as the result of the obstacles in the river and that if we removed these obstacles, the flooding is bound to subside? The river is at present cluttered up with all sorts of dead timber, sallies, etc., which are impeding the flow of the water. I am quite satisfied that as a temporary measure we could improve the flow of the water without causing any inundation in the area of the estuary. If the Minister has any idea of the problem, he must appreciate that a temporary improvement can be effected there without causing any danger to anyone lower down the river.

I have intimated that I shall request the Board of Works authorities to investigate that possibility. I do not claim to be an expert, unlike the Deputy, but I know that experience in the past has shown that even drainage works carried out by skilled engineers have been complete failures in many cases and have created floods instead of remedying them.

If the Minister could use his good offices to get us a dredger I believe the portion of the river in the neighbourhood of Inistioge could be dredged.

As Minister responsible for harbours, I am making representations in practically every country to get a dredger, so far without success.

Have you tried Holland or Sweden?

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
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