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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Jun 1949

Vol. 116 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £567,100 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1950, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities and other Expenses in connection with Housing and Miscellaneous Grants.

The total of the Estimate for the expenses of the Department for the year is £1,207,100. It shows an increase of almost £60,000 on the Estimate for the last year. The gross increase, reduced by savings under other heads, is mainly attributable to the provision for contributions towards loan charges of local authorities under the Housing Acts, which automatically increase with the accumulating indebtedness for housing and which this year involves a State charge of £690,000 as compared with £600,000 last year.

The sum of £10,000 provided in sub-head I (2) represents the estimated liability for grants payable for houses the erection or reconstruction of which was commenced before the 1st November, 1947. This is, of course, a diminishing liability, replaced by the provision made in the next sub-head, I (3), for larger grants towards houses to which the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948, relates.

The amount provided for grants towards houses being erected by private persons under the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948, is £300,000. This represents the approximate balance of the total amount for which there is statutory authority up to the present to expend. This is unlikely to prove sufficient for the whole of the financial year, owing to the greatly accelerated rate at which private grants are now being paid, and legislation to extend the statutory maximum will become necessary during the year.

The estimate for grants towards the provision of improved accommodation for householders, where a member is suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, has been reduced. The number of extra rooms and chalets so far being provided under the enabling Act of 1946 has been much lower than was anticipated. I hope, however, that there will be an extension of this form of building activity from now on. If this happens, the provision for grants under this head will be correspondingly increased in future years.

A separate provision of £20,000 is being made under Section 27 of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948, to enable grants to be allocated for the provision of houses reserved for occupation by newly-married couples. This is estimated to be the maximum needed to meet the amount of grants likely to come in course of payment during the year towards completed houses to be allocated for the use of this class.

There is nothing exceptional in the remainder of the Estimate to which I need refer, in summarising its contents, except the provision of £1,453 which is included to cover the costs of preparation of a textbook on local government. This work has been in progress for some years and is now nearing completion. When the book is available it will provide a valuable starting point for the drafting of new measures to modernise and consolidate the local government codes. One result of the researches undertaken is already apparent in the introduction in the Seanad of the Local Government (Repeal of Enactments) Bill, 1949.

Of the total Estimate of £1,207,100, the amount required for subsidisation of the various forms of housing operations represents £1,057,975. In other words, over 88 per cent. of the total Estimate relates to housing. Therefore, it is right that, as my predecessor did last year, I should devote first place in introducing the Estimates to this essential service.

The housing needs which the local authorities are required to meet had been estimated before the Government assumed office at about 60,000 houses, of which Dublin City and its environs required about 26,000. In the course of the intensive examination of housing needs which has since been conducted in every local area, and in the organisation of the new housing drive, it has become apparent that this estimate is conservative, that in many cases more houses than were originally estimated are required for persons living in insanitary or overcrowded dwellings. There is also a constant accretion of new demands by reason of further obsolescence, tenementing and the subdivision of families.

The late Minister, Mr. T.J. Murphy, referred in his introductory speech on the Estimate for the Department last year to the various difficulties, such as shortage of materials and skilled labour, reluctance of contractors to tender for houses, rising costs, and delay in completion of contracts, which he had experienced in initiating his housing drive. The Minister and the Department worked throughout the year at continuous high pressure to overcome these difficulties.

Better contacts were made with a view to easing the supplies position: the duties on imported tiles and slates were suspended; negotiations were undertaken with trade unions and representatives of the various trades groups and with local authorities in order to increase the supply of craftsmen. For this purpose, also, a more rigorous control of building licences was instituted. Any type of building which could be described as "luxury building" ceased to operate except in cases covered by licences already granted. Local authority and subsidy houses thus attracted a greater measure of building labour. The number of workers employed on local authority housing schemes increased from 3,079 in March, 1948, to 8,353 in March, 1949.

Where contractors did not come forward to tender for housing schemes, or where their tenders proved too expensive, or where contract work was found unsatisfactory, local authorities were encouraged to supplement the contract system by instituting direct labour schemes supervised by their own officers. Detailed instructions were issued as to the organisation and supervision of such schemes. It was made clear that they were to be operated as a supplement to and in competition with comparable tenders for contracts.

At the same time, the Minister himself, accompanied by his chief officers, carried out a comprehensive series of visits throughout every county in the State. He held housing conferences with the public representatives and officers in the local areas and by examination of the position in each area and by his personal exhortations and advice he succeeded in stepping up the rate of progress throughout the country generally. All the housing conferences were completed within a period of eight or nine months. Representatives of every Party in the House came in contact with the Minister in their own local areas in the course of these visits and I have no doubt but that they were impressed by the sincerity and devotion which the Minister brought personally to bear upon this objective of good housing. It is the general belief, and it is within my own personal knowledge, that the Minister wore himself out in the course of these arduous duties. He died advocating the advancement of his programme and the best monument to his memory is the success which has already attended his efforts and the clear evidence that the housing programme is now advancing with ever-growing speed.

The progress now being made must, of course, be not only sustained but also accelerated by every means at our disposal, but the fact that in the past year very real progress has been achieved will be evident from some figures showing the comparative positions as at the 31st March, 1948, and at the 31st March, 1949.

In the year ended 31st March, 1949, 1,871 houses and flats were completed by local authorities, as compared with 729 in the previous year. The actual volume of housing activity now in progress is, however, still more encouraging. The number of dwellings in course of construction in March, 1949, was 8,193, as compared with 3,816 in progress at the corresponding date in 1948. It is expected that in the present year this figure will rise to 10,000.

With regard to the position in Dublin, which presents the most difficult problem of any individual area, the number of dwellings in course of erection in the city in March last was 2,759, as compared with 1,632 a year previously; 775 houses and flats were handed over during the year, the corresponding figure for the previous year being 553. The number of dwellings completed in the month of March, 1949, was 224, the largest monthly output for a very considerable time.

I am sure everybody will agree that great credit is due to the Dublin Corporation and its housing staff and to the Dublin Housing Consultative Council for the success which is attending their efforts and that we may confidently look forward to the expansion of housing output in the city at a steadily increasing rate.

The supply of an adequate number of skilled craftsmen such as carpenters, plasterers and others associated with the finishing of houses, still represents one of the most serious obstacles to a greater rate of production. Nevertheless, considerable progress has been made to swell the ranks of skilled operatives on local authority housing schemes. The number of skilled tradesmen engaged on these schemes throughout the country as a whole has increased from 1,283 in March, 1948, to 3,664 in March, 1949. The question of further increasing the supply of skilled labour has been the subject of discussions with the trades groups and negotiations still continue. The final attitude of certain trades groups to the importation as an emergency measure of a limited number of prefabricated houses has also to be still defined.

In this connection and also in relation to the attraction of further supplies of skilled labour from those who emigrated in the past to Britain, the position of housing finance and continuous employment on building works has been explained in public statements and in the course of negotiations with the trades union representatives. It has been publicly announced by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the late Minister and other representatives of the Government that financial difficulties will not be allowed to constitute an obstacle to housing. Local authorities have also been advised to draw up planned programmes, not only for building houses, but for the acquisition and development of land for further housing schemes to meet all their estimated needs, so that on the completion of one scheme employees can be switched at once to the scheme succeeding it, thereby providing continuous employment for the operatives. To this programme I now give my wholehearted support and I wish to announce publicly that so far as the Government and the local authorities are capable of achieving that objective, the employment to be afforded on housing schemes for a considerable period to come will be of growing dimensions and of a continuous nature.

With the certainty of continuous employment at wage rates and amenities of life that compare favourably with anything that can be obtained abroad, I would earnestly bespeak a still greater rally of workers to our national housing drive. I also wish to commend the workers for their co-operation towards securing a better rate of output, and I am sure that they will intensify their efforts in this direction when they realise that the housing programme, coupled with the programme of hospital construction and other large building programmes now being planned by the Government, provide certainty of continuous employment for very many years to come. The work being performed is for themselves and their brethren and, in the last words of the late Minister, is intended to secure better living conditions for their children.

The position as regards subsidies on loan charges and special capital grants from the Transition Development Fund, which are the chief means of subsidising local authority housing, remains the same as last year. Housing costs still prove extremely erratic. While direct labour schemes have been found to be economical and a valuable corrective to contracts, the costs under the contract system still vary enormously as between one scheme and another. The variations are most apparent in rural areas where prices for cottages without services range from £700 upwards, reaching £1,000 for larger types. In certain urban districts, the tender prices for development and building commonly range from £1,300 to £1,500 for houses between 700 and 850 square feet.

These prices are far too high. It would, to my mind, be a very imprudent step to follow inflated prices with increased subsidies and I feel that the time is coming when we must fix ceiling figures above which no tenders will be approved. This has been done in individual cases already. Inflated costs of building are an absolute deterrent to speedy and effective housing. They add to the burdens of the State, the local authority and the tenants. At present the State liability in respect of the capital cost of housing works out at approximately one-half of the cost. No new system of housing subsidy can be formulated on a permanent basis until a much greater degree of normality is achieved in the matter of building costs and I wish it to be clear that my idea of normality is that which will be attained by an all round reduction of the price of houses.

As regards private building, the introduction of the new scales of grants for houses erected by private persons and public utility societies under the Housing Act which became law in the beginning of 1948 had to be effected after the Government took office. Various regulations and forms and a large amount of printing had to be undertaken before the scheme could be got going. Then the technical and clerical staffs of the housing section, depleted during the emergency, had to be reorganised to cope with the access of new work. The new arrangements were well in operation by the summer of 1948, but by that time the volume of applications before the Department had grown to very considerable dimensions. The late Minister took a personal interest in having the arrears brought up to date with the minimum delay and the position now is that, for the country as a whole, the housing section is operating on current work, with no appreciable amount of arrears in any area. The increases in the number of applications dealt with and in the amount of the grants paid at successive periods in the past year are the best illustration of the progress made.

In April, 1948, 50 applications for grants were dealt with; no payment was made under the heading of grants for new houses; and £20 was paid towards a reconstructed house.

In July, 169 cases were dealt with; new house grants totalled £2,232 and reconstruction grants £485.

In October the figures were 1,298 cases; new house grants £19,768 and reconstruction grants £4,115.

In February, an unsatisfactory period for building and inspections, 1,119 cases were dealt with and the payment figures had mounted to £62,645 for new houses and £7,980 for reconstructed houses.

It is the Department's aim to stimulate private house-building of the appropriate type in such a way that it will provide the maximum supplement of local authority building. The controls exercised over all other types of building operations no longer apply to local authority houses or subsidy houses. The valuation for the purpose of advances under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts was increased from £1,000, first to £1,750 and since to £2,000. Local authorities have been encouraged to make sites available for persons erecting their own houses. They may, where appropriate, develop the site and transfer it to the prospective householder at cost price. Further legislation is under consideration with a view to facilitating this procedure and expanding its use and with a view to discouraging the unreasonably high prices, fines and ground rents demanded by land speculators for sites being let to private persons.

The annual grants of £40 a year for ten years made available under the Act of 1948 towards the provision of houses for letting should, I think, be availed of to a greater extent than they have been. The Department has so far received only 360 applications under this head. With a wider public knowledge of the facilities available, there should be increased activities in this field, particularly on the part of industrialists and other employers building houses for their own workers. The late Minister wrote personally to all the leading business concerns pointing out the facilities available and the procedure to be followed and asking for their co-operation. There is already evidence of a sympathetic reaction to this approach and I trust that the interests concerned will, as a whole, display a helpful and progressive attitude in this matter.

I now pass to the activities of local authorities in the provision of sanitary services. The expansion of these services is closely allied to the housing programme. New or augmented water supplies and sewerage systems are often found necessary to cope with increases in the number of dwellings to be served. Increased housing grants are applicable to houses in which sanitary services are installed. It, therefore, becomes the responsibility of the local authorities to extend existing sanitary systems or install new ones in built-up areas where existing systems are either insufficient or not available.

Apart from its relation to the new housing, the sanitary services programme has still to be undertaken in many of the smaller towns and villages throughout the country. It is probably true to say that the remaining portion of the programme is the most difficult portion. Areas which presented special difficulties as regards the planning of waterworks or sewerage schemes were necessarily left in abeyance until the more straightforward schemes were carried out. Some counties have an enormous programme of these schemes still to be undertaken. The procedure adopted for a number of years has been to have the pending works listed in the order of their relative urgency by the local authority on the recommendation of the county medical officer. This is the procedure which must still be followed to enable works to be undertaken in accordance with a planned programme over successive years. It is obvious that from the point of view either of the capacity of the local authority to undertake the work or of the arrangements available for financing the schemes, the works will have to be undertaken in successive periods. These limitations are naturally not appreciated by the representatives of particular areas who press for immediate attention to their own needs. Notwithstanding these difficulties, I am glad to say that progress was well maintained during the past year on the provision of water and sewerage facilities in towns and villages. The total number of major schemes initiated during the year was 33, involving an expenditure of nearly £400,000, towards which State grants of £140,000 were allocated. A still larger programme is planned for the present financial year.

An unsatisfactory feature in relation to some schemes already carried out was the small number of connections made by householders with the services, when installed. In October last, a circular letter was issued to all sanitary authorities outlining the statutory provisions which have been made to facilitate householders who might otherwise be deterred by the immediate burden of the cost of connections. Local authorities have been reminded they may themselves make the house connections at a cost agreed with the householder and that, where necessary, the repayment of their expenses by the householder may be spread over a period of years. It has been suggested that these provisions be brought to the notice of the householders and it has also been pointed out that connections with sanitary services can be made most economically at the time when these services are being installed.

The number of appeals under the Town and Regional Planning Acts submitted to the Minister in 1948-49 was 288, as compared with 197 in the previous year. In a large proportion of the cases settlement was achieved between the appellants and planning authorities as a result of the Department's intervention. A noteworthy feature of many of the cases which came before the Department was their relationship to the extension of sanitary facilities. Where the erection of dwelling-houses is proposed in situations which are near built-up areas but which are not yet served by sanitary facilities, it has to be determined whether such facilities are likely to be brought to those areas in the near future or whether they are areas that are never likely to be served. Similar decisions have to be made in the planning of housing schemes. Where sanitary services are available a high density rate of houses per acre can be approved whereas if such facilities are not to be provided the building must be on the basis of low density.

My predecessor and his Parliamentary Secretary have endeavoured to make the Planning Acts subserve the realistic needs of current development rather than the problematic needs of unspecified future periods. I may say my own attitude to the Acts is the same. I feel that while they may serve a useful and indeed essential purpose in various aspects of interim control, their structure is somewhat rigid in other respects and their contents may need revision. An important aspect of their application is in relation to the user of land. I hope to see their provisions more closely co-ordinated with the general provisions governing the acquisition of land by local authorities. A certain co-ordination of the administrative activities of the Department has already been effected for this purpose.

The Road Fund income in 1948-49 amounted to £2,389,000 as compared with £2,000,000 in 1947-48. The increase is due partly to the increased number of vehicles using the roads and partly to the increased h.p. rates of duty prescribed in the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1947. The number of vehicles under current licence in August, 1948, was 108,002 as compared with 90,374 in August, 1947.

Outstanding liabilities in respect of road maintenance and improvement grants amount to £2,787,280, which, with other charges on the fund, made a total outstanding at the 31st March, 1949, of £2,920,280. The Road Fund income for the present financial year is estimated at £2,400,000.

It is obvious that the liabilities outstanding at the beginning of the financial year coupled with a reasonable normal programme for the current year would exhaust the total current income of the fund and the margin of borrowing permitted last year. That is the simple explanation of the reduction in the grants available for the present financial year. Deputies have already been made aware of all these considerations and they have been given details of the mode of allocation adopted for the present year. An attractive feature of the allocations, to my mind, is the additional proportion of the total grant made available for work on county roads.

At a recent conference of county engineers in Dublin it was ascertained that in practically every county the current road works programme will be in full operation in the present month and that it will provide employment at least comparable to that provided in any previous normal year.

When the Road Fund grants programme was being debated in the Dáil on 23rd February last, the Minister referred to the proposed Bill which has since been introduced under the title of the Local Authorities (Works) Bill, 1949, under which he anticipated that alternative employment would be afforded to persons displaced as a result of the cessation of the special road works programme undertaken by the aid of borrowing in 1948-49. The Bill is still before the Oireachtas, but in the meantime the local authorities have been requested to make local surveys and furnish schedules, giving in outline particulars of the schemes which they propose to undertake when the necessary statutory authority is available. The schedules of schemes submitted indicate that a very extensive series of works, ranging from £50,000 in some counties to over £200,000 in others, are capable of being put in hands without much delay.

At the conference of county engineers to which I have referred, the general opinion was that the most suitable time of the year for undertaking the majority of works of this kind was the summer and autumn period up to about November. While, therefore, I am encouraging the local authorities to proceed with their road works at the normal rate, at least, I shall have to consider, when the new Bill becomes law, the question of corelating labour for the road works schemes and the works authorised by the Bill.

During the year a number of emergency controls over various commodities were removed. Nevertheless, many kinds of supplies are not yet back to pre-war levels. It has, however, been possible to appoint official contractors for the current year for many commodities unobtainable during the emergency. A welcome feature of the tenders in the present year was the marked increase in the number of applications for appointment as official contractors which was received from provincial merchants. Prices as a whole are still very much above the pre-war figures. I trust that the near future will manifest a fall in these prices which can be passed on to the credit of the local authorities.

The combined purchasing section of the Department acts also on behalf of health authorities which are otherwise under the supervision of the Minister for Health. The work of the section in this sphere relates to the supply of furniture, medical equipment, etc., for health authorities and local institutions. Considerable progress has been made in the standardisation of the furniture and equipment for local authority hospitals. It is hoped thus to achieve the maximum value for the institutions with the minimum expenditure.

The supply of building materials to local authorities is becoming of increasing importance, according as direct labour schemes are promoted for the building of houses and also in connection with the maintenance of existing housing estates. The Department is at present examining the extent to which it can be of advice and assistance to local authorities in this matter, either by an extension of the activities of the combined purchasing section or otherwise.

The estimates adopted by county councils for the current year show a general rise in rates. They represent an average poundage of 23/3 as compared with 20/5 last year. The increase in the poundage represents an estimated increase in revenue of about £800,000 on the revenue of about £9,000,000 in the previous year.

The largest single increase in the current year's Estimates is for roads and this is due to the general adoption of exceptionally heavy supplementary road estimates by county councils in the latter months of 1948 in order to qualify for further grants offered to them for road works at that time. Provision for the local authorities' share of this extra road expenditure had to be included in the 1949-50 Estimates. The grants were on a very favourable basis under the emergency arrangements made to finance the road restoration programme, so that the local contributions evoked very good value. Estimates for housing services provide for an increased expenditure of 27 per cent. on last year. This increase is indicative of greater attention to housing and it is, therefore, one which will be generally approved. Sanitary services expenditure will increase by 11 per cent. and this, too, is in keeping with the position as explained in my remarks on the general sanitary programme.

Of the total expenditure of county councils, estimated at £9,843,000 in the present year, over £4,000,000, or 42 per cent., is to be spent on health and assistance services.

In connection with these figures, I wish to make it clear that the poundages, percentages and actual expenditure figures I have given are gross amounts and do not represent the actual burden on the rural rate-payers. The sum of £9,843,000 is reducible by £3,910,000 in respect of the Agricultural Grant, which is made available in relief of rates on agricultural land. That leaves a net amount of £5,930,000 to be obtained by county councils.

The county rate collection for the year was very good and it showed an improvement on the 31st March, 1949, on the corresponding date in 1948.

The total borrowings for purposes other than housing for the year amounted to £877,926, as compared with £518,783 in the previous year. The increase was largely accounted for by a stock issue by the Dublin Corporation during the year. Housing loans sanctioned in 1948-49 amounted to £8,403,758, as compared with £2,320,366 in the previous financial year.

Local administration generally presented very few major difficulties. In the course of the Minister's visits to the various local areas, it was found possible to resolve in a speedy and simple manner numerous problems which would otherwise have involved lengthy correspondence. There was a general appreciation of the Minister's interest in every aspect of local administration and a corresponding willingness on the part of local representatives and local officers to co-operate. I think I can safely say that the foundations have now been laid for a closer and more realistic understanding between the Local Government Department and local administration.

I am aware that there is still uncertainty—and no doubt a good deal of speculation—as to the system of administration which will be proposed in replacement of the management system. This is not the occasion on which an announcement on this matter can be made, but I wish to make it clear that the preparation of the legislative proposals on this matter has been pushed forward by the late Minister and his officers as speedily as possible, having regard to the pressure on them occasioned by other work, other programmes and other legislation such as I have outlined to-day. So far as I am concerned, the introduction of these proposals to this House and their publication for the information of all concerned will not be delayed a single day beyond the time needed for their complete formulation.

While I in no way wish to begrudge to the Minister the congratulations which would customarily be tendered to him on succeeding to Ministerial rank, nevertheless I think that the usual freedom of criticism in relation to the statement which he has made to the House will be somewhat restricted by the tragic circumstances under which he has become responsible for the Department of Local Government. Allowance must be made also for the fact that as he has only lately been called to office we need not, perhaps, have expected from him as fully an exposition of the principles on which that Department has been administered during the past 12 months as we might have required from his predecessor.

There are one or two matters arising on the main body of the Estimate about which I should like some further information, in relation to which the Minister was certainly not very expansive. I notice that under subhead I (1) the contribution to loan charges under the Housing (Miscellaneous and Financial Provisions) Act, 1942, has been increased from £600,500 in 1948-49 to £690,145 for the current year, representing an increase of £89,645. No doubt it will be claimed that that is indicative of the vigour with which the housing problem has been attacked by the Minister for Local Government. If one were to draw that conclusion from that figure, I think he would be grievously misled and, in order that no person may be under any misapprehension as to the significance of these figures, I would like the Minister, when replying, to say when the houses in respect of which this additional £89,645 will be payable during the year were projected and planned by the local authorities concerned, when the schemes which they constituted were approved by the Minister and when operations commenced, and if he would further say, with regard to these houses, when the sites for them were acquired and were developed. I think it is desirable that we should have that information also in relation to those houses which he claimed were in course of construction in the City of Dublin in this year as compared with last year and the number of houses completed during 1948-49 as compared with 1947-48. It would be very useful indeed to know how many of these dwellings were built on sites acquired, on sites developed and on foundations laid in the years prior to 1948 when building materials were unobtainable.

I see nothing to congratulate the Minister on in the fact that he has been able considerably to increase the rate at which houses have been constructed. Everything was there to his hand. Plans had been prepared and sites acquired and, as I have said, developed, and all he had to do was to take full advantage of the considerable increase in the supply of materials which took place during the past year. He has no control over that. These materials have become available not due to any increase in economic activity in this country but to the general revival——

Will the Deputy agree that that is not a very generous attitude?

Will the Deputy take his red tie off and go out and celebrate the Russian revolution again?

A typically ungenerous attitude.

The fourpenny pint Deputy should not be talking about an ungenerous attitude.

Cheap and ungenerous.

This Government deserves no credit for the fact that due to a general revival of economic activity in Europe and all over the world, the supply of materials which were practically unobtainable during the war years has now become very full and very free. I do not want to go into the general question of economic production in relation to this country. There are many aspects of that question in respect of which our position compares very unfavourably with that of other countries. The Government need not pat itself on the back and need not applaud itself for the fact that they are getting now what we could not get when we were in office. They are getting them not because we did not try to get them but because, when the Deputy and some of his colleagues were outside, when some of the colleagues now supporting him were outside, endeavouring to embroil this country in war——

Let us keep to the Estimate.

——Deputies like Deputy Lehane——

That is completely untrue and the Deputy knows it. It is a deliberate falsehood.

——the countries which control these supplies severely restricted them to this country.

Speculative builders got the stuff.

Deputy MacEntee is entitled to speak without interruption.

He is surely not entitled to make statements which he knows are deliberately false and which are made maliciously.

That is a charge I cannot accept and will not allow Deputy Lehane to make—that Deputy MacEntee is making a statement which he knows is false. That means that he is deliberately telling a lie and Deputy Lehane must withdraw it.

Surely Deputy MacEntee should be asked to withdraw the statement he has made that Deputies in this House were endeavouring to embroil this country in war. That is a charge of treason.

The Chair cannot discuss these factual matters. The Chair has no means of proving whether they are correct or not, but to say that a Deputy is making a statement which he knows is untrue is charging that Deputy with telling a lie, and Deputy Lehane must withdraw it.

I would prefer to withdraw from the House rather than to withdraw the statement.

Deputy C. Lehane withdrew from the House.

Deputy MacEntee made a charge against Deputy Lehane which was categorically contradicted by Deputy Lehane. Am I not in order in saying that Deputy MacEntee must adduce proof of that statement or withdraw it?

If we are to seek proof of every statement made here, we will never get anything done. I cannot ask Deputy MacEntee to prove any statement he has made.

Is that a tribute to Deputy MacEntee's irresponsibility?

No. It is a statement that we cannot adduce proof of every statement made in the House.

I should like to apologise to the Chair and to say that I feel I did go outside the bounds of the debate. I am sorry that Deputy Lehane had to leave the House in the circumstances in which he has left. Another matter about which I am perturbed is that no progress seems to have been made in regard to giving effect to the scheme for holding a competition for designs for housing schemes. I note that the Vote in respect of that has been reduced from £4,000 to £3,900. I do not know what led to that reduction, nor do I know the reason for it. It seems to me to be almost a contemptuous reduction, and I do not know whether indeed it is a reduction which was made after due consideration or just a fictitious and unreal effort to show that the Estimates had been prepared with more than usual care. It would be very interesting to know exactly what calculations were made in order to estimate the expense which would be involved in holding this competition.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again next week.
The Dáil adjourned at 12 midnight until 3 p.m., on Tuesday, 14th June, 1949.
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