Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Alginate Industries (Ireland) Limited (Acquisition of Shares) Bill, 1949—Committee (Section 4 resumed) and Final Stages.

Mr. Derrig

I move amendment No. 1:—

At the end of sub-section (4) to add the words "and shall be accounted for in the Vote for Gaeltacht Services of the annual Estimates for public services".

The Minister is responsible to the House for all expenditure taking place under the Vote for which he is charged and on the annual Estimates the House has an opportunity of reviewing the administration of this Department, other Departments and any ancillary matters in which Deputies may be interested. The fundamental position, of course, is that the House is responsible for expenditure and the House controls it. The Minister comes with his annual Estimate and then there is a discussion upon his proposals. Fault has been found in the past with the system of State or semi-State companies for which the House provides the money although it has not an opportunity on the annual Estimate or in some other way of reviewing their work. Such State or semi-State company is precluded because as it is financed in another manner it will be declared to be out of order for the House to discuss its working.

In this Bill the Minister is taking the majority holding in regard to a company which has very important work to perform and which will certainly, I am sure, be of the greatest possible advantage to the Gaeltacht area. I think there is no sound reason why the House should not have the opportunity of getting the fullest possible explanation about the working of this particular scheme. It may be that for technical reasons the Minister had to adopt this particular procedure of taking the majority holding of the shares of the company and working through a nominee, but it is certainly a principle that is, I think, at variance with the principle that he is responsible to the House and that the House controls expenditure, as when this Bill becomes law we are to have no opportunity whatever on the annual Estimate of referring to the operation of this company. The Minister has given us no information as to the exact functions of this nominee. I understand that this nominee who will represent him on the board will be a civil servant. If this civil servant performs whatever duties attach to this post of nominee during his ordinary working hours, or, indeed, after his ordinary working hours, as part of his Civil Service duties, it seems to me right and proper that the work he does there representing the Minister—in fact, he is only acting by the Minister's direction and carrying out the Minister's policy—should come up for review. Since he is responsible, as I have said, in a particular way to the Minister, I can see no reason why the work he does representing the Minister in this particular company should not come up for review precisely in the same way as the work of other officials who administer schemes in connection with Gaeltacht industries.

Though it is very difficult as the Bill stands to secure the aim I have in mind of having the position that the Dáil will be entitled to review the work of the company when the annual Estimates are under discussion, I think that this amendment may go some distance at any rate to enable us to refer to the work of the company upon these Estimates. If the Minister is going to give us assurance that arrangements will be made by which it will be made clear in the annual Estimate for Gaeltacht services that whatever remuneration this civil servant gets by reason of his work as nominee will be clearly stated then of course the question will settle itself, but I am assuming that that is not the Minister's intention. I propose that not alone will arrangements be made in regard to certain matters which are provided for under Section 4 but that there will be a definite direction from the House that these matters shall also be accounted for as far as expenditure is concerned by definite reference under the Gaeltacht Vote.

Mr. Bartley

I have read the Minister's opening statement and I did not obtain a great deal of information. I would like the Minister to say if he proposes under the new management and new ownership that this industry will expand on the lines that similar industries have expanded during the war. I refer particularly to the developments in the seaweed industry in Northern Europe.

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise on this amendment. It is much wider.

Mr. Bartley

In any event, the Minister has indicated that the industry as it has been operating recently has not shown any great evidence of success.

An Ceann Comhairle

He indicated that on the Second Stage. The question is simply whether certain words shall be added or not.

Mr. Bartley

All right, I will wait until a later stage.

Mr. Briscoe

I take it that the Minister is not replying but intervening.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are in Committee.

Mr. Blowick

I cannot accept this amendment because it is not Parliamentary procedure to account for money that is not in the Vote. There will be a certain amount of expenditure under certain sub-heads for the purchase of searods, and other kinds of seaweed, too, I hope, and as such that would be accounted for, but I think as the Deputy had some experience in the Government for a very considerable period he must be aware by now that this amendment if added would be totally unworkable. In other words, it would be asking the Minister for Lands to account for expenditure, to account for the affairs of a semi-private company. I cannot accept the amendment in the form in which it has been put down. At a later stage, I hope to ask the House to accept an amendment of mine which I think should meet the wishes of the Deputy and of the other Deputies who raised this matter previously.

Mr. Briscoe

On a previous stage, the Minister indicated that he had quite an open mind on this matter.

Mr. Blowick

And still have.

Mr. Briscoe

He more or less suggested that he would consider the matter and might in the Seanad introduce an amendment to meet the point put forward. He now states that the amendment proposed is unworkable from his point of view, and I suppose he has been so advised, but that he has in mind an amendment which could meet the point. He apparently has no objection to introducing that amendment and, I think, has given an indication that he may be prepared to do so. Would it not have been better if the Minister had on the Order Paper——

Mr. McGilligan

It is on the Order Paper.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is in typescript and has been circulated.

Mr. Blowick

It was circulated at Question Time.

Mr. Briscoe

It is not on the Order Paper, anyway.

Mr. Derrig

Do I understand from the Minister that some of the purchases of materials will appear in the annual Vote?

Mr. Blowick

To set Deputies' minds at rest—I hope I will not run foul of the Chair in saying this—there will be a sub-head for the purchase of seaweeds and various expenses arising in connection with their purchase in the Vote each year. Deputies can discuss that to their hearts' content and also the expansion of the industry which we all hope for and look forward to. This amendment, however, aims at a totally different thing.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 2 not moved.

Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Derrig

In order to save time— you, Sir, have ruled out a further amendment in my name.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ruled out No. 2.

Mr. Derrig

I want to ask at this stage whether the Minister can give us any further information as to whether the civil servant who will act as his nominee will, in fact, be a director of the board.

Mr. Blowick

The nominee will be a director, but, while I did suggest that the nominee may be a civil servant, I did not say definitely that he would.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 5 agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Mr. Derrig

I move amendment No. 3:—

To delete all words after the word "a" in line 13 and to insert instead the following words: "report on the working of the company during the preceding accounting year and a balance sheet, a trading account and a profit and loss account of the company for the same year duly audited by the auditor of the company."

This amendment is designed to secure the fullest possible information from the Minister as to the working of the company during the year. The Bill merely specifies that a balance sheet and profit and loss account for the accounting year, audited by the company's auditors, shall be placed upon the Table of each House. I think that a report on the working of the company would also be necessary, because, as I explained already, the accounts afford only very meagre information, even to those who are acquainted with the figures. In the case of any companies in which the State has a direct interest of this nature and is actually responsible for the major control, the Oireachtas ought to be given fuller information through an annual report.

Mr. Blowick

I am absolutely in favour of furnishing a report on the working of the company and the amendment which I propose to move will, I think, meet the Deputy in that respect. The amendment as it stands asks that a trading account be furnished. I might point out that the Minister for Lands proposes to purchase 51 per cent. of the shares, while 49 per cent. will be held by an outside company. The Deputy should bear in mind that this is not a matter of the formation of a new company—we are merely taking over existing shares to prevent an industry from perhaps perishing completely, an industry which is only in its infancy but which promises to be very valuable from the point of view of the people along the coast, where these searods are thrown up. It cannot be compared with other State-sponsored companies in that regard, because, in the case of the other companies to which I presume the Deputy is referring, the Minister for Finance holds all the shares. I am sure that if the Deputy found himself Minister for Lands, he would have difficulty in saying how he proposed to compel the other half of the company to furnish their trading accounts —something which company law does not provide for and which is not done by any other company or concerns. They might always, if they wished, withhold information.

Our concern with this company is, first, to induce the people to gather the greatest quantity of searods, to purchase them and to pay them with money voted by the Oireachtas, and then to sell the searods to this company which will dry them by a special process and mill them into meal. After that, we have finished with the searod product. Our only desire is to expand the industry and to gather as much as possible of this type of seaweed. About 3,000 tons were gathered last year and a total of £12,000 paid out. There must be three or four times that amount going to loss, because the whole industry is only starting. There may later, as I pointed out, if experiments at present under way prove successful, be another branch of the seaweed industry which will have a fairly promising future, in connection with the rock weed or bladder weed, as it is known along the coast.

I cannot accept the amendment, as it is, but I suggest that the amendment which is in Deputies' hands, tabled by myself, will give the House the fullest possible opportunity for discussion. The report which the amendment envisages and the sub-head in the Vote for Gaeltacht Services each year will give ample room for full discussion, so that Deputies will be able to know all they want to know about the industry.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Blowick

I move amendment No.4:—

To add to the section a new subsection as follows:—

(2) So long as the Minister is the owner of any shares in the company, the company shall, as soon as may be after the end of each of the company's accounting years, present to the Minister a report of its work during such accounting year and the Minister shall lay the report before each House of the Oireachtas.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Section 6, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 7 and 8 and Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendment.

Agreed to take remaining stages now.

Bill, as amended, received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Bartley

I want information as to whether the Department is keeping in touch with developments in the seaweed industry in other places. From a report which I have recently received I understand that a very important development has taken place in, I think, Norway and the Northern European countries. A great many by-products of seaweed have been discovered and these are the basis of new industries. There are, I understand, 16 different products being produced— among them food products, cosmetics, textiles, paint and lacquer. If we could develop our seaweed industry along these lines it is quite obvious that a development of this sort would be of the first importance for the poorer areas. Further, if other important industries such as the ones I have referred to could grow out of a development of this industry which the Minister is now taking over it would probably prove to be one of the most important developments for those areas for which it is so difficult to find suitable industries.

I want to know if the Department is keeping in close touch with developments in other places and if, under this Bill, it is the Minister's intention to exploit these new discoveries to the fullest possible extent.

Mr. Blowick

Quite a number of the by-products of seaweed are fairly valuable. For instance, the British War Office paid particular attention to any of the by-products of seaweed during the war years. The cessation of hostilities has not thrown the whole industry overboard as, unfortunately, happened to the seaweed industry on two occasions before—(1) when the seaweed was being used to produce iodine and when some deposit, I cannot recall the precise details at the moment, was found capable of producing iodine of as good if not better quality far cheaper and far simpler and (2) when kelp was being used for potash and unfortunately that only blossomed forth into something worth while when the usual supplies of potash were not available. In this new development it is the belief of experts that no other alternative raw material will be found to displace it. As far as the quantity of seaweed, particularly around our western coast, is concerned, I have every hope that it will prove a very valuable industry. It will never become a gigantic one or anything like that but it is one well worth fostering and developing and we are keeping a close eye on it.

Deputy Bartley said that he understands there are about 16 by-products. Actually there are 52. Searods are scattered along the coast of Galway, Clare, and Donegal—the coast the Deputy knows so well. The trouble is that this industry is only in its infancy.

When the kelp industry collapsed before, due to the introduction of potash from more plentiful and cheaper sources, people here became discouraged and allowed the seaweed to rot and it was not gathered, except in small quantities which were used to replace farmyard manure. That is not the case now. The total amount gathered last year was in the neighbourhood of 3,000 tons. I am sure that the officials in Gaeltacht Services say that at least four times that amount is going to waste just because the people have not been educated, so to speak, and are not in the habit of gathering it. Mind you, it is a very lucrative thing for them. All they have to do is to gather the rods and so forth and place them on the walls or other suitable drying places so that they may reach the maximum air-dried condition. They are then purchased—cash on the spot. Many people have found it to be a very useful industry and it is growing. I have not a table with me at the moment but I think the industry has sprung from something around 400 tons per year to 3,000 tons per year, and even yet we have only barely touched the fringe. I have no doubt but that, with good careful management and a properly constituted drive to get in the greatest amount possible, the industry will flourish inside the next three, four or five years and that it will then be at least three times the size it is this year. Then there is the question of the reorganisation of the company and also the fact that it may be found necessary to get better and more up-to date machinery for the drying and milling of kelp. Incidentally, about 2,000 tons of turf are burned for the airing and drying of about 3,000 tons of searods. If we can treble the amount of searods going to the factory it will mean 6,000 tons of turf needed in an area where bog is plentiful and where work is not always as plentiful as we would like it to be. The turf will provide a useful little side-line. Six thousand tons of turf are not easily got and production will provide a very useful amount of employment over a limited area. We do not see many snags ahead and I hope snags will not arise. We have every hope that the industry will grow for the people of the west coast.

In my opening speech perhaps I did not make quite clear the fact that the best field for searods is that from Loop Head in Clare to the north of Donegal. It depends on the seabed, to a great extent. If the shore slopes down steeply you do not have searods. A gradual slope is required and the more of it there is at about six fathoms the greater the area of searods. It very often happens, and it is happening even at the moment, that a lot of rods are lost—rods that could be gathered. We hope to round up that waste, to gather it up, because it will bring a fair amount of prosperity to many homes that at the present time may not be so prosperous.

Question agreed to.