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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 Oct 1951

Vol. 127 No. 1

Private Deputies' Business. - Agricultural Workers' Wages—Motion.

I move:—

That Dáil Éireann considers that the minimum wage payable to agricultural workers in County Dublin should be £4 10s. a week and in all other areas £4 a week.

It will be obvious to everybody that the class of workers to whom this motion refers, agricultural labourers, are badly paid. At the present time the highest wage paid to an agricultural worker in this country is paid in County Dublin, and it stands at £4 per week. The lowest wage is paid in a number of counties and stands at 67s. 6d. per week. The working week in counties outside of Dublin is one of 54 hours with four hours allowed for a weekly half-holiday.

The agricultural labourer in this country is a type of worker to whom I have referred on more occasions than I can remember since my membership of this House began. I have heard agricultural workers being referred to by members of every Party always in terms of praise, always in terms which, if the poor farm labourer were in the Gallery, would make his cheeks glow with pride. I recall during portion of the emergency—that portion when I was free to attend public meetings during election time—it was the habit and the recreation of politicians to say what great men the agricultural workers were, how they were standing in the gap producing the nation's food. They were the frontline soldiers and they were urged to work harder and still harder to get the maximum produce they could from the soil to keep our people going. They were great men, and they were great men on 40/- a week during the years of the war. On a working week of 54 hours they were working nine hours a day for six days a week while other workers with far less skill, of far less importance, in industries that did not matter very much to the nation, were working half the length of time that the agricultural worker was working and getting twice the amount of money that he was getting.

As time passed, in some areas farm labourers began to realise that their salvation did not lie in paying heed to the short memories of the politicians but rather in their own organised strength.

They succeeded in lifting their standard of life somewhat so that their wages were increased from time to time by dint of organised pressure. But now we have 150,000 people in this country working for wages in agriculture, and the average wage is in the neighbourhood of £3 10s. or £3 12s. a week. They still have a longer working week than any other class of people. They are still important and probably will become more important as time goes by.

If the threats of war which we daily read of in the newspapers come to a climax, if war breaks out and we are thrown back again upon our own resources, the agricultural labourer will be the man in the gap. I have no doubt he will receive oceans of praise, as he did before, but that is no good. Praise puts no bread on a man's table. Being urged to produce more does not mean very much to a man who is getting hardly enough to keep his family going.

Take the case of an agricultural labourer in County Dublin who is lucky enough to be allocated a county council cottage. He must pay 9/- out of his £4 for that cottage. He is lucky to have £4 judging by the standard of pay in other counties, but he is still at starvation level. No man with any initiative and no man with a few pounds who can get his bus fare away from the land will stay on the land at the present time.

That is the worst thing that could happen to this country. One of the greatest disasters that could befall the Irish nation is that the land should be deserted by these skilled operatives— and that is what they are, although when they come to town now and again they may look somewhat out of place, and are often made the jest of the more slick city dwellers. There is greater skill in the mind and in the hand of the agricultural worker than there is in most of the artisans in the cities and towns, and there is certainly a far greater degree of intelligence and a far greater appreciation of what matters in life, because agricultural workers live close to nature. As a class they do not own land. They may be lucky enough to have half an acre from the council of the county in which they live. If they are, they must keep it up to standard.

The only chance they have of working the acre or half-acre, whichever it is, is during their spare time. Until we managed to put through this House an Act to give them annual holidays and an Act to give them a half-holiday, their spare time was a very attenuated affair. It depended entirely upon the goodwill of the employer, and that is not a good principle to work upon. Generally speaking, in many areas there exists a happy relationship between farmers and their employees. However, there are cases, and these are not one or two, where farm workers are being exploited by their employers and where the relationship is not, as it has often been called here, a family relationship. Rather is it one of master and servant.

I remember hearing a Deputy refer on one occasion in this House to the agricultural worker and his master. For most of the country that day is gone at last, or, at least, it is on its way out. The servile attitude of mind which provoked or prompted people to think that Almighty God created two distinct classes, one the master and the other the servant, if not completely gone is passing away. The diffusion of more knowledge in rural areas and the acquisition by rural dwellers of this knowledge is changing the attitude which conceived the philosophy that one person should serve the other. Knowledge, like bread and butter, can only be acquired by paying for it either in experience or, more often than not, with hard cash. The few additional shillings that have been conceded to the agricultural worker have increased his thirst for knowledge and have raised his standard of living.

My motion is designed to raise in this House the whole question of the payment of agricultural workers. I will never be convinced that the farmers of this country are being badly treated, whatever may be said to the contrary. I think that they were very well looked after during the term of office of the previous Government, and the people of this country are now beginning to see in the person of the ex-Minister for Agriculture a farmer's man. Indeed, the present Minister for Agriculture is looked upon in the same light. In fact, taking up the paper any day we read of him putting forward, possibly in a different guise, the same ideas which Deputy Dillon was putting forward last year. I repeat that both men have the interests of the farmers very much at heart, as is their duty. I want them both to take cognisance of the rights of those who help the farmers, those who keep them going and on whom they depend to add to their prosperity.

When the present Government assumed office, and I think "assumed" is a very apt word in this context, their first act was to increase still further the price of milk. This resulted, of course, in an increased price for butter. That must mean a very substantial addition to the farmer's income, because it followed on a list of increases by the previous Minister. We are told that Deputy Corry and his merry men have succeeded in convincing the brewers that they should give the farmers an increased price for malting barley. Recently the Minister for Agriculture announced that he will pay an additional 7/6 per barrel for wheat. We must add all that to the tremendous prosperity which is the outcome of the three-years' reign of the previous Minister for Agriculture.

Agricultural wages have not increased commensurate with the rising income of the farmers. There have been slight increases, and these have been brought about by dint of hard effort on the part of organised agricultural workers in different parts of the country. This very year I had forced upon me the unpleasant duty of upholding a strike of agricultural workers in County Dublin. It was settled, of course, as all strikes must be settled. As a result the agricultural workers received an increase of 10/- per week. The strike was short-lived. Perhaps, we were lucky to be dealing with farmers in County Dublin who take a slightly more liberal view of trade unionism than do the farmers elsewhere in the country.

The increase was paid and the ruin which was foreshadowed for the County Dublin farmers was averted. When the Agricultural Workers' Weekly Half-Holidays Bill was passed through this House we were told that it would be detrimental to the cause of agriculture. As far as this weekly half-holiday goes there are many farmers who are trying to dodge the column and they are going to be looked after shortly to the best of our ability. This half-holiday has improved the relationship between the farmer and his man, just as we foretold. It has also brought about an improvement in production, although Deputy Cogan and some other prophets of doom pronounced here that it would spell the end of Irish agriculture.

I am putting forward a very simple request; it is simply to ask the Dáil to express its view as to what it would regard as a proper minimum rate for agricultural workers in Dublin and in the rest of the country. I will anticipate the criticism which I know that Deputy Corry will undoubtedly level against me because I am differentiating between County Dublin and the rest of the country. This differentiation has been upheld by the Agricultural Wages Board since it was first formed. It is generally agreed that in Dublin City and County the cost of living is higher than in other areas throughout the country. For that reason, a differential rate is necessary and it is to maintain that differential that I suggest a somewhat larger increase for farm labourers in County Dublin.

At the present time, the wages of farm labourers are determined by the Agricultural Wages Board. That is a body which the Minister might examine and abolish as quickly as he possibly can. Perhaps it may not be known to Deputies that the Agricultural Wages Board consists of a chairman, who is a full-time civil servant if you like, four farmers to represent the employing interests, four workers to represent the interests of the agricultural labourers and, I think, two so-called neutral members. They are always "neutral" against the agricultural labourer. They invariably vote against motions at meetings of that board which seek to give the agricultural worker a few shillings more. It is provided by statute that, where there is not unanimity amongst representatives of the workers and of the employers, the chairman shall make the decision. In other words, there may be seven votes for an increase of wages for agricultural workers and one against, and the chairman, acting within the powers bestowed on him by an Act of the Dáil, may determine that no increase shall be given. The chairman constitutes a quorum of the board. The method of selection of members of the board has been a farce for years. I recall some years ago inquiring as to who was the workers' representative in a certain area of the country. I was told, and when I inquired further I found the man had been working in Birmingham for three years previously and up to the time I inquired. I do not know whether he was in that particular unit in Birmingham referred to recently by the Taoiseach, but he was in Birmingham.

I think nobody will envy the lot of a man who has to live on £4 a week; much less will he envy the lot of a man who has to live on 67/6, as is the case in County Wexford, for example, and in other counties. I know that the subject matter of this motion will not have very much weight in certain western counties where hired agricultural labour, if you like to describe it as such, is non-existent, but it is of tremendous importance for areas along the eastern seaboard and in certain midland counties where we have land which, unlike the land in the West, is literally black gold, if you like— County Kildare and parts of North County Dublin—where six months ago half an acre of land to be used for agriculture was sold for £500—the better parts of Wicklow and the Model County.

Not model in that respect.

It is an ironic title. It may be model as far as production is concerned, but it is a scandalous thing that in a county such as that and in other counties a man working on the land should be expected to live on 67/6 a week. Recently the Taoiseach made a speech which got prominence in this country and indeed in every country on the known earth. He referred to the conditions of Irish workers in Birmingham sleeping 15 in a room. Agricultural labourers in this country with families will be found sleeping five and six in a room. The married agricultural labourer with his wife and family living in what is known as a two-roomed mud cabin has often to live five and six in a room. You do not have to go to Birmingham to get conditions of overcrowding. Were these men living under such terrible conditions in Birmingham not driven there? Did they go to live 15 in a room of their own free choice? They went because if they stayed at home and went to work for some of our native employers, they would be lucky to get even 67/6 a week. Even in Wexford last Sunday I was told of agricultural workers living indoors getting a wage as low as 10/- and 15/- a week and as many hours as God sent they had to work. If they mentioned anything about it to the Agricultural Wages Board they got short shrift. They would get their cards and then, if they wished, they could hike to Birmingham, but where would they get the fare to go there out of a wage of 10/- or 15/- a week?

We have often spoken about the conditions of workers in this country and about what should be done for the West, but surely we should start at the beginning and not midways. Surely we should start with the people who are the worst treated. I do not think anybody will deny that the agricultural labourer is almost at the very bottom of the social strata in this country, so far as living standards are concerned. Play is often made of the so-called perquisites he gets, but if an agricultural labourer does work for an employer who is reasonable enough to allow him to take home some of the farm produce —and goodness knows it does not mean a snap of the fingers to the ordinary farmer if the worker is given all the farm produce he requires—it should be remembered that when that agricultural labourer goes into the small town adjoining to purchase essential commodities, he is often at the mercy of that creature, still not extinct in this country, the gombeen man, who may control all the village and half of the town, and the agricultural worker must pay prices very often higher than those paid by more wealthy members of the community for certain essential commodities such at boots and clothing, for himself and his children. He has often to pay higher prices than he would pay in the City of Dublin. He has got to pay a rent for his house, if he has one, a rent that will compare with the rent being paid by other very much better remunerated classes.

I do not expect that everybody in this House will agree with the motion, because I have seen and heard representatives here—it appears to me that they are very few in number—who would deny, if they could, the agricultural worker the light of day, to use an old expression, but I ask reasonable Deputies in this House to give thought to the motion and to support it so that this most important section of our people shall get greater consideration than they have got up to the present, and so that the Agricultural Wages Board, which we hope will be reconstituted at an early date, will be called upon by the Minister and by the Dáil to do its duty for the men who work on the land. It should be laid down as a cardinal principle by Dáil Éireann that all men should be cherished equally, that we should not legislate for one section to give them advantages over any other section, and if farmers are prosperous in this country or enjoy improvements in their lot, Dáil Éireann must see to it that that prosperity is passed along down the line. That is what this motion asks, and I urge the House to accept it.

It gives me great pleasure to second this motion because it is an endeavour to establish for that long-forgotten section, the agricultural workers, rights somewhat similar to those enjoyed by their brothers in the industrial world. It is admitted that these people work the longest hours of any workers in this country. They perform the most difficult tasks under the most difficult conditions and they must have a high degree of skill if they are to be of any use to their employers. I do not claim to have any particular knowledge of the work of agricultural labourers, but in my previous employment I came in daily contact with agricultural workers and their wives and families, and I am as well aware of the conditions under which they exist as any Deputy. Anyone who has travelled the country as a national health insurance agent or as an ordinary assurance agent will be well aware that the total cash income coming into an agricultural worker's house is at least 50 per cent. below that which is required to keep himself and his family in ordinary frugal comfort.

The Holy Father, in an Encyclical, stated that a worker was entitled in justice at least to that, plus sufficient to provide as well for the rainy day in case of sickness or accident or any trouble that might befall him. This motion is an endeavour to establish the right of the agricultural worker to a wage which we suggest is but in keeping with that express wish of the Holy Father. Lip service has been paid from all sides of this House to the agricultural worker, and praise has been showered upon him for the terrific value he was to this country during the last emergency. If that was sincere, then to the Deputies who gave that praise and to the other Deputies I would say that there are two questions they should ask themselves and, if they are satisfied that the answer to both these questions is in the affirmative, then they have no option but to vote for this motion.

The questions, I suggest, are: Is the wage a fair one? Is it necessary that an agricultural worker in County Dublin should receive £4 10s. per week and in the rest of the country £4, and that it would be a criminal offence for an employer to pay less than that? I suggest, having much more knowledge of the rest of the country than of County Dublin, that £4 per week is the normal wage for the average worker in the country. County council workers, on the whole, are on that mark. Men employed by the Forestry Department or the Office of Public Works receive the county council rate. Creamery workers, in general, receive £4 or more per week. Surely, then, if the agricultural worker who receives so much praise from all sections of the House is to live at all and is to continue in his employment, it is right and fair to say that he should be put on a level with the rest of the workers.

It has been my sad experience to see travelling by bus the children of a farm labourer who endeavoured to send his children when they had reached the age of 14 or 15 years to a technical or secondary school out of the very little earnings he had. These children had the humiliation of having to attend a secondary or technical school in the cut-down clothing of their father or mother, and to be ridiculed by other pupils, not because of any fault of theirs but because their father had the misfortune to be an agricultural worker and was not receiving sufficient to be able to buy suitable clothing for these children to attend these schools. We are all well aware how bitter and how harsh school children can be to their companions. It is a desperate thing to think that because these agricultural workers took upon themselves the duties of fatherhood and managed to scrape up enough to educate their children for the state they are entitled to, these children have to suffer humiliation because their parents have not sufficient money to clothe them properly.

As Deputy Dunne said, the agricultural worker has to buy clothing, boots and the other necessities of life in the very same market as the industrial worker. In fact, with the addition of transport charges, they very often cost him more than they do his comrades in the towns. Anyone who will look upon this matter in an unbiassed manner will agree that the changing circumstances in the world are such that the agricultural worker needs to receive as much at least as any other worker.

As to point number 2, whether the farmers are in a position to pay, anyone who lives in the rural areas will be quite satisfied that an additional 12/6 per week per worker will not bankrupt any farmer at the present time. One has but to stand at a chapel gate on a Sunday and see the wealth reflected by the presence of high-priced motor cars to realise that the farmers have come into prosperity. It is a well known fact that deposits in the banks of this country were never higher than they are at present and that most of the money is lodged by people who make their living out of agriculture.

In the farmer's own interests a contented worker will more than repay the increase asked for. If there is no money in farming how is it that immediately a farm is put up for sale all the neighbouring farmers are anxious to get it and will pay very high prices indeed in order to get another 40 or 50 acres of land to add to what they already hold. These farmers are hardheaded businessmen. Unless they knew they would get a good return, having secured that land, they would not buy it. They would invest their surplus money elsewhere.

We hear a good deal about the flight from the land. Is it surprising that able-bodied men and women leave the land and seek employment elsewhere, employment which will give them a wage sufficient to keep themselves? Is it not true that it is the lame and the halt who are left to work our farms? The aim of this motion is to give the farmers contented workers, to help them to increase their earnings and restore to the country some of the vitality that it has lost. For that reason, I have pleasure in seconding this motion.

I move the amendment standing in my name:—

To delete all words after "considers" and substitute the following: "that decisions on minimum wages payable to agricultural workers should continue to be a function of the Agricultural Wages Board".

Having knowledge of the position of the agricultural worker prior to the setting up of the Agricultural Wages Board, I would have many misgivings were I to agree to its abolition in the interests of the agricultural workers. Apart from the financial aspect, good work has been done by that board. The age of capitalism is gone, and we must give credit to the Government that set up this machinery in order to ensure that agricultural workers would get a fair deal. My advice to the farmers would be to pay their agricultural workers a decent wage and thereby ensure that the labour will be there when they want the beet harvested, the cow milked and the wheat and oats threshed. The less interference there is from Government departments in a matter of this kind the better it will be for all immediately concerned and for the nation as a whole.

I think this is the first occasion upon which any demand has been made for reconstitution, or the total abolition, of the Agricultural Wages Board. I think it would be a very grave matter ta pass this motion completely ignoring the personnel of the board and indeed putting that personnel into oblivion forever. What has been said in relation to the importance of the agricultural labourer is not by any means a case of "gilding the lily". The agricultural worker is all-important in the nation's economy. He and his employer form the backbone of the nation. If we had no agricultural workers our position would be grave indeed. If our workers are not paid a decent wage the nation's economy will be threatened.

The democratic way is the right way to do things. I am satisfied that the Agricultural Wages Board has done a great deal to better the position of the agricultural worker and the nation's economy. We should be very slow to do away with any instrument that has proved satisfactory. If we hand the agricultural worker over to a Government department we will be advancing still further along the road towards that bureaucracy which has been so often condemned here in the past.

The wages and conditions of agricultural workers before that board was set up are enough to make any decent Irishman blush. Every fairminded Deputy must admit that the board has done a good day's work. Relations obtaining between employer and employee have been bettered during the past ten or 15 years. The farmer knows he must abide by the board's decision, and he does not blame his employee because an increase has been demanded and obtained. No case has really been made for complete abolition. The Minister might perhaps consider the constitution of the board. Some members may have gone away or be absenting themselves for one reason or another. From that point of view the Minister might give the constitution of the board his consideration.

The good spirit obtaining between the agricultural workers and the farmers has improved considerably, and I believe that the importance of the agricultural workers is fully realised. As Deputy Dunne has said, we know full well the service they gave to the nation during the emergency and before it.

I ask the House to accept my amendment. I believe we should be taking a false step—a step that would, perhaps, take many days and weeks and months of argument here to retrace—if we were to accept the motion. Having given the Agricultural Wages Board to the agricultural worker and to the working farmer, we should not, without a solid case being made for it, abolish that board or, by interfering with its status and duties, pass the motion moved by Deputy Dunne to-night.

I second the amendment. I was rather amazed by the statement made by Deputy Dunne to-night. I do not know where he got his stories. I suggest he has very little association with agricultural labour and knows very little about it, to judge by the way he spoke here to-night. I wonder who is the Wexford farmer whom Deputy Dunne found paying 10/- a week plus board to his labourer at the present day—or does the Deputy think that all the Deputies of this House are living in Dublin and that none of them live in the country? I think the Deputy mentioned that there were some agricultural labourers working for 10/- a week, plus board, for farmers in County Wexford. I wonder if Deputy Corish would get up and substantiate that assertion?

I am sure he would. Neck, if anything. If there are such agricultural labourers, does Deputy Corish think that he is doing his duty —if he knows of such cases—in not seeing that these agricultural labourers are getting what they are entitled to get by law? I think that is a fair question. I find it hard to imagine that a man who is entitled, roughly, to about £3 a week is working for 10/——

£3 a week, all found?

Yes. They can get it freely in Cork county anywhere.

The Deputy is dreaming.

There is another dreamer over there. I have advocated in this House a wage far higher than that mentioned here.

That is all we are asking you to do now—express an opinion.

Yes, on condition that Deputy Corish and the others who are here with him will stop travelling into the Lobby to force the farmers of this country to accept an uneconomic price for their milk.

They are surviving.

That is what you have been doing. The Deputies in this House who adopted that attitude towards the farmers are the Deputies who approved of sending over £3,000,000 of the Irish taxpayers' money to New Zealand and Denmark to buy foreign butter for the people of this country.

Are you not importing it now?

We are. Why?

The Deputy is travelling far from the motion.

We have heard a lot of talk here and we read a lot of inspired articles in the Press about the extra ld. a gallon that the farmers got for their milk. I suggest that that ld. a gallon was more than offset by the increase which was given in wages. I hope to prove that suggestion and something more than that. If I do not have an opportunity of proving it to-night I shall do so next Wednesday in this House when I shall be dealing with another motion that is in the offing. I only ask Deputies here who pretend to be interested in agricultural labour to act at least in accordance with their pretensions and to give to the employer of the agricultural labourer the wherewithal to pay him. I speak here as one who considers that the agricultural labourer of this country, whether he be farmer, farmer's son or farm labourer, is entitled at least to as much as any man, whether he be an insurance agent or anything else.

What does the Deputy want for the farmer in order to put the farmer in a position to give £4 or £4 10s. 0d. to the farm labourer?

I will give the Deputy an explanation of that. Some three years ago, two organised bodies in this country went into the costings of beet. Some 1,100 farmers were costed. Out of the 1,100 farmers, not ten were found who were paying the minimum wage. They were all paying far more than the minimum wage—and they are the tillage farmers of this country. If the Deputy will take the trouble to look at these costings and examine them he will find that out for himself. This year, the price of beet is based on these costings—and it was, except during the short period, thanks be to God, when the gentlemen opposite were in office and their Minister refused to do so; when the labourer working at beet and producing sugar for this country found himself out on the side of the road because there were 6,600 acres less of beet grown in this country than previously, and when the men working in the factories were working a month short.

The Government which the gentlemen opposite kept in office had to go to the Cuban and to the Chinaman for sugar. They paid £12 a ton more to the foreigner for sugar than for the best Irish sugar produced here by Irish labour. No less than 74,000 tons of sugar were brought into this country last February, having been purchased from the Cuban because the then Minister put down in black and white:

"We consider that the agricultural community were far too generously treated by the previous Government and we cannot agree to an increase of 4/6 a ton on beet." Let us find out what was paid to the foreigner for the 74,000 tons of raw sugar which went to the four factories.

The Deputy is now a long way from the motion.

I am dealing with the question of an increased wage and of the farmer's ability to pay it.

On a point of order, is it correct to say that Deputy Corry is seconding the motion? If so, is it further correct to say that the amendment simply states that the matter should be left in the hands of the Agricultural Wages Board? I presume Deputy Corry will now mention something in connection with the amendment.

In speaking to an amendment, is it not in order for a Deputy to refer to the motion?

I am speaking to the amendment.

And avoiding the motion.

The amendment and the motion are being taken together.

I am dealing with the motion and with the position in which the agricultural community would be in a position to pay.

What do they want?

The cost of production plus a fair profit which they could not get.

What do they want—£4 and £4 10s.? They are never satisfied.

What way did the rural community vote?

In 1946-47 the cost of milk, for instance, was taken in Cork. The price of milk was fixed by the then Minister on that basis.

From that day in 1947 until the roots were shaken under those gentlemen over there, and they made a death-bed repentance, they gave, out of the bottom of their full hearts, a solitary ld. per gallon to hand over to the farmer to meet all his increases in the costs of production between 1947 and 1951. It is, as a result of that action and of that attitude by those Deputies, that the milk is not there now, and that you are paying the foreigner to produce butter for you.

Deputy Kyne spoke about farmers' motor cars. The only decent, respectable motor car that I see around the chapel gates on a Sunday morning is the one used by insurance agents. The old farmer has to take what is left. Deputy Kyne also alluded to the castoff clothes which some children wear going to school. I can assure him that the poor old farmer has only the castoff motor cars left over by Deputy Kyne and his kind.

On a point of order, could we relate Deputy Kyne's motor car to the motion?

Deputy Corry might now come to the motion.

I am dealing with a statement that was made here by Deputy Kyne about the prosperity of the farmers. He gave us an instance of the number of motor cars which farmers had at Mass on Sundays. I am telling him where the motor cars came from, and I think I am perfectly entitled to do that.

I suggest to the Deputy that he should leave them outside the door.

If the Deputy would cease interrupting we could get a bit further on this motion. If he does not, of course, I cannot help it. I suggest that the proper attitude on this matter would be to have a committee set up, if necessary of Deputies of all Parties, to investigate the whole economy of the agricultural community at the present day and to fix prices for agricultural produce on such a basis as will enable the farmer to pay a wage as least on a par with the wage paid in any other industry in the country. The agricultural worker, whether he be a farm labourer, or whether he belongs to that unpaid class—farmers' sons—or whether he be the old farmer himself who gets nothing at all, is better entitled to have that condition of affairs brought about than any other section of the community. I suggest it is only just that that should be done. We have this lip service about the flight from the land and all the rest of it carried on by school teachers and others when they meet around the fire at a Muintir na Tíre meeting and talk about the unfortunate downtrodden farmer. They talk about the flight from the land and what should be done to keep people at home. Deputy Kyne talked about the farmers. Unfortunately, the farmers are not in the same position as the trade unions, but I hope that that will not always be so and that nobody will be allowed to buy land except a farmer's son, in the same way as you cannot be a tailor unless you are a tailor's son, a carpenter unless you are a carpenter's son, or a baker unless you are a baker's son.

That is a lot of poppycock.

All these so-called trades are closed. I suggest that if we have any seriousness in this debate or any intention to approach this problem as it should be approached, we should deal with it on these lines: first, find the cost of production; secondly, fix the cost of production, plus a fair profit, and give that to the farmer, and, thirdly, compel the farmer then to pay a wage to the agricultural labourer. That would end the danger alluded to by Deputy Dunne and which I admit, namely, that there will be nobody left on the land but the cripple or the old age pensioner. That is the position that we are leading to. When I hear talk here about increased production I wonder where the increased production is to come from. It will not be brought about by a condition of affairs where the farmer, according to the costings produced by, I think, Mr. Barry, on a 35-acre farm earns £3 a week.

How long ago was that?

That was before you started putting up the costs on him and holding him up against a stone wall and telling him that he belongs to the one class whose prices will not be allowed to rise.

The costings were made out in 1948.

A request was made to the then Government in 1948 by the sugar company for an increase of 4/6 a ton on beet, which was refused. These are facts and cannot be denied just as it cannot be denied that the refusal by the State to pay an economic price for milk from 1948 to 1951 brought about the condition of affairs that we, and agricultural country, had to go abroad and buy £3,000,000 worth of butter from the foreigner. The farmer was not paid his price and he could not pay the labourer. The labourer left and there was nobody to milk the cow, and I have seen, and have brought Deputies to see, barns containing 15 to 20 cows and two calves suckling each cow, producing beef for John Bull, which was a better-paying proposition.

You cannot get blood out of a stone. You cannot get money where it is not. You cannot expect a farmer to pay a wage if he does not get the money to pay it with.

How much does he want? I have asked the Deputy 20 minutes ago where does he want an increase? On what?

On what you voted against three times in the last two years. The Deputy heard the argument put up here, and he is one of the Deputies who went into the Lobby to vote against giving the farmers and economic price for milk.

Where does he want the increase? I gave him 20 minutes to answer. He is acting Bob Hope for the last 20 minutes.

Deputy Corish should allow Deputy Corry to proceed without interruption.

The Deputy has asked a question, what does the farmer want? The question has been answered for him four times already, that the farmers want the cost of production plus a fair profit. A motion was brought into this House asking that the farmer be paid an economic price for his milk. The Deputy voted against it. There was a motion by Deputy Cogan only 12 months ago.

What price do you want? How much do you want for milk?

I will tell you that next week. I will tell the Deputy exactly what I want next week, and not only what I want but what I intend to get. Be certain of that.

You will want to watch him next week. He will break up the coalition.

The first man to suffer when costs increase is the agricultural labourer. He is the first man in the troupe to go. Anybody could see that condition of affairs coming about for the past four or five years. As I said in this House a short time ago, the agricultural labourer will soon be as scarce as the Red Indian. The only thing the agricultural labourer has to sell is his labour, and he will sell it in the highest market, and more power to him. He would be a fool if he did not. He is not too much concerned about production. I have as much, if not more, experience of agricultural labourers as any Deputy.

I know that he is prepared to give a decent day's work at any time. He is prepared to help his employer at times when he need not. That has been my experience of agricultural labourers all my life, and I have been dealing with agricultural labourers since I was turned into an agricultural labourer myself at the age of 13. I turned up at the farm and did my day's work. I did not care anything about a 50-hour week at that time. It was nearer to 95.

That is the condition of affairs in which Labour come in here with a motion of this type. I have seen motions of this kind being introduced by Labour and within a week afterwards I have seen Labour trotting into the Lobby to prevent the farmer from getting the wherewithal to pay. You cannot have your loaf and eat it. I have seen labourers in other walks of life, in the building trade, doubling and trebling their wages, doing less work per hour, laying less bricks per week or per day, and I have seen the building contractor being paid for every bit of it. We want the farmer to be treated in the same way. We want the farmer to get the wherewithal to pay his labourer a decent wage. He is entitled to that, and you are not going to put the farmer in a position in which he can pay a decent wage by preventing him from getting it. The sooner Labour come to realise, that is, if they are honest in their proposals——

We cannot, until you prove your case.

I suggest that Deputy Corish is definitely dishonest in his proposals. He had some voice, surely, as a Parliamentary Secretary in the previous Government and he was one of those responsible for preventing the farmers getting an economic price for milk, which is the foundation of the agricultural industry. He was also one of those responsible for the reduction in the beet acreage.

Surely the Deputy is repeating himself now?

This arises out of an interruption by Deputy Corish. If these interruptions ceased, we might get on with the discussion of the motion.

These children do not know what is in order and what is not, but they will learn in time.

We know that Deputy Corry is nearly always out of order.

The Deputy himself is always out of order. I never yet saw him in order. He was not even in order when he pretended that it was he who got the price for barley, an admission which Deputy Dunne said we should be thankful for. The more one examines this problem, the more one realises that if we were to step up production in this country, if we are to put our people in a position in which they will no longer be dependent on the foreigner for essentials of life in the shape of food and if agricultural labour is to be kept on the land, you will have to give, not the £4 mentioned here, but the wage of a skilled tradesman to the agricultural labourer. Agricultural labour is entitled to that wage because the agricultural labourer of to-day has to know how to drive a tractor, how to work milking machinery and how to look after a reaper and binder, and he is therefore entitled to the wage of a skilled tradesman.

I am prepared at any time to make a fair bargain with those who even pretend to represent agricultural labour. On the day on which they say they are prepared to back a Bill in this house that all agricultural produce shall be paid for on the basis of the cost of production, plus a fair profit, costs to be made out and ascertained, on that day I shall be prepared to support a Bill fixing the minimum wage of agricultural labour at £6 per week.

Anybody will agree with you in that.

Get the Minister to introduce it.

In that way, we will be changing the whole aspect of our agricultural economy and we will no longer be dependent, as agriculture is to-day, on the man who is mentally deficient, a cripple or an old age pensioner because these are the only classes of people who I believe, will work on the land of this country to-day for the minimum rate of wages which the State allows. I give that as a present to anyone who wants it. It would be far better economy for us to work on that basis and if those who pay such great lip-service to the flight from the land at Muintir na Tire meetings worked on that basis, there would be less flight from the land. We would have a happier country and at least we would not be dependent as we are at present on the Cuban for our sugar, on the Mesopotamians for some other commodity, the Iraquis for another and on the people of Formosa where we sent for sugar two years ago.

The four sugar factories would be working for at least two months extra in the year producing sugar for the Irish people and we would not have the shameful position in which 74,000 tons of raw sugar were brought into this country, with the assistance and connivance of the Labour Party, to supply the Irish people with sugar—paid for out of the taxpayers' money to the amount of over £3,000,000. Agricultural Ireland, the land which in the old days was supposed to be flowing with milk and honey, last year had to send out to the Danes for Brian Boru's butter and is now going to New Zealand for butter. That is the condition of affairs which the policy of drift carried on here has brought about.

There is one way and only one way in which to end it, because the flight from the land is not confined to the hired agricultural labourers. The farmer's son to-day sees that his value as a worker on the land is about £3 or £3 5s. a week. He sees the fellow working on the acre taken from his father's farm as a builder's labourer earning £5 12s. a week digging the foundations of houses and it will not be long until he jumps across the ditch and says—"Good-bye, Daddy; I have got a better job." The flight from the land is not confined to the agricultural labourer— the farmer's son and daughter are going as well.

It was only yesterday that I was on an interview board and there came before us two girls, the only daughters of a widow with 120 acres, from Beaufort, County Kerry, looking for jobs as probationer nurses. Nobody was left at home but the widowed mother. That is what is happening to the land of this country and that is what is happening right along the whole line. It is time it was ended, and there is only one way of ending it. You will not end it by motions like this; you will not end it by coming in here to throw mud on the men— decent men, I take it—who were selected by the previous Government, selected, some of them probably by the Deputies themselves, for the Agricultural Wages Board. They are not a Fianna Fáil selection. They are the selection of the last Government, including this man whom Deputy Dunne said should be kicked out. I would hesitate very seriously before suggesting that Deputies Dunne, Larkin, or Corish selected Labour representatives on the Agricultural Wages Board who were not fit for their job. Surely they were not responsible for selecting the individual alluded to by Deputy Dunne who was in Birmingham for three years and whose name still appeared as a representative on the Agricultural Wages Board. Deputy Dunne, I admit, had several flights of imagination here this evening, but I do not know whether his imagination flew so far as that.

That is the situation as I view it, and that is why I suggest that this problem, the problem of our production on the land, is too serious to be tackled in this manner. It would need the joint effort of every Party and Deputy in this House. The suggestion I have put forward is the basis and the only basis on which it can ever be done successfully.

I had hoped in supporting the motion to refer to a few points in the vein employed by Deputy Davern in moving the amendment although I naturally disagreed with him. Unfortunately the peculiar contribution of the famous Deputy Corry in his old Joxer Daly fashion has tended to reduce this discussion to a level lower than that of any discussion which ever took place in this House. I am sorry to say that this motion which should have been discussed in an orderly and respectful manner has been anything but beneficial. Take the statements made by Deputy Corry. Unfortunately he has gone. I am sorry that he has gone because although it might be drifting a little from the motion I intended to answer him. If, having made false statements, ridiculous statements, he wants to run, if he wants to make a Dunkirk of it, I will say good luck to him. As far back as 1947 or 1946 I had occasion to know of many cases not far from Deputy Corry's old homestead, and not so far from where he lives now, where we had to bring the Agricultural Wages Board inspector to employers because they refused to pay even the nominal wage laid down by the board. At that time the line of action which Deputy Corry has so noticeably taken in the last few years was less noticeable. At that time he was not so vocal in his demand for costings. It must therefore be correct to say that in that period he was somewhat satisfied with the prices the farmers were getting. I thought that he might be careful in offering suggestions about costings to Labour members in this House although I believe that those members would accept his suggestion if he were sincere about it. We do say that even the agricultural community are entitled to the cost of production plus a fair profit but it is on the words "fair profit" that we must differ from Deputy Corry and his followers. Not so long ago when dealing here with prices he quoted the figures of a well-known personality, a professor in Cork, but unfortunately on that occasion Deputy Corry found it suitable to add figures of his own to the figures finally submitted by that gentleman. Therefore, how can even he believe when he uses words such as "fair profit" that we will assume that that "fair profit" is arrived at in a proper businesslike fashion?

Coming back to the motion—I do not want to delay long as I do not believe there is need to do so—I differ from the line of approach taken by Deputy Davern in his amendment. His approach to the question was clear and outspoken. He simply stated that instead of giving £4 a week in country areas we should leave the matter in the hands of the Agricultural Wages Board. May I remind Deputy Davern of his own very unfortunate talk when a few years ago the board refused to consider in any way the right of farm workers even to call for a meeting of the board to hear their just claims for an increase in wage. It was only on the eve of a general strike in Cork County, where, according to Deputy Corry, employers were throwing money hand over fist to their employees, that the Agricultural Wages Board agreed at the last minute of the last hour. It was in 1946 or 1947 and the Minister for Agriculture agreed to have a meeting called to deal with the question.

Apart from that I believe that Deputy Davern's amendment is, unintentionally perhaps, sidetracking the discussion on this motion because the motion does not say anything about taking from the board or leaving to them the right of establishing a minimum wage; it simply suggests that this House agree to a minimum wage of £4 per week. If that is passed and the responsibility is taken by members of the House, particularly by Deputies representing industrial areas and large towns, then I am sure that the motion is a clear indication to the Agricultural Wages Board. They as a body are responsible for decisions, or at least they are partly responsible because the chairman is nominated by the Minister, and I presume that their decision comes back to the Minister for ratification. Deputy Davern's amendment can hardly hold pride of place because it asks for something completely different from the motion itself. However, that must be left to the members to decide.

I will ask members to state quite clearly their approval of the motion irrespective of what Deputy Corry has said, and I, please God, will not stoop to waste time in answering him. I would ask the members to consider this motion clearly and simply and if they are genuine in their desire for decent conditions for agricultural workers, and if they would like to see a decent type of people living in rural Ireland, then they have an obligation to vote for this motion.

Other than that, I think the matter should be cut and dry. Naturally, people looking at it from a different angle may have a different view on it. I honestly believe that the agricultural community is not the downtrodden class that we have been led to believe they are for the last three-quarters of an hour by this Deputy. The agricultural community, it is true to say, have enjoyed a measure of prosperity, not only for the last three years—I am speaking as a member of a Party which does not try to deny another Party its rights—but for the last seven, eight or nine years. During that period the farming community have certainly gained financial advantages which we are proud they have gained, but they should be honest enough to admit they have gained them. Yet, during that self-same period they have denied, in many instances, the right of the farm worker to the minimum agricultural wage and they only gave way when we were forced to bring in the inspectors in connection with those cases. Therefore it is quite clear that our approach to this matter cannot be either 100 per cent. on the side of the farmer or 100 per cent. on the side of the worker. I believe we should be 100 per cent. for Ireland in this matter. If we deplore—as we all do—the flight from the land, we must understand clearly that our first duty is to see that the flight from the land is completely stopped. This can be done by giving decent living conditions on the land.

Deputy Corry mentioned scarcity. He referred to various matters in the past. Of course, he had to bring in Brian Boru. I do not know whether Brian Boru was short of milk, but I do know that Deputy Corry forgets that even during the period when we were supposed to be importing foreign butter, we had large exports of milk in the form of powdered cream and chocolate crumb. If that is so, it follows that the farmers themselves not only helped the export market but contributed to the factories making powdered cream and chocolate crumb.

Deputy Corry must realise that, while he throws out the old cry about offering £6 a week, he offered the same thing 12 months ago. When on this side of the House Deputy Corry refused to support the right of the farm worker to the half-holiday. He refused to support the right to a week's holiday and now he is refusing to support the right of the farm worker to a decent wage. I would ask the members of his party, who are honest, sincere and courageous enough, to show they are determined that the farm worker will be justly, decently and Christianly treated by way of a just wage. The one way they can do that is by voting for this motion.

This is my first time to speak in this House. I have come to this House as a farmer. I work alongside my farm workers every day, although if I come here I am told I am not a worker.

Some matters have been mentioned by Labour members, and if they exist they are very unfair and unjust. If there are workers in Wexford who are paid at the rate of 15/- or 10/- a week it shocks me that this condition of affairs should exist. I do not like to see this gloomy picture being painted between the farmers and the farm labourers. I come from an agricultural part of North Tipperary where the farmers and the farm labourers work side by side and where they all sit at the one table. Of course, they will argue with you that the farmers are very well off and prosperous at the present time when they see them going to Mass in motor cars, but would not the House think that the farmers are entitled to that comfort if they work long hours? I am proud to come from the land.

With regard to this matter of looking for milk and butter, the last speaker mentioned the chocolate crumb factories. I say that the chocolate crumb factories are wrong, because we cannot have both butter and chocolate. Let us have butter before chocolate. I think it would be very wrong and also unfair to go away from the Agricultural Wages Board. I have as much regard for the farm workers as any man, but I would ask the Labour members to keep to the Agricultural Wages Board because they themselves voted for it. I think the members of that board will give a fair deal to everybody.

Are we going to hear the Minister now?

Really, I have very little function in this matter. The Agricultural Wages Board was set up by the Government in 1936. Many of us know why that board had to be set up. Prior to 1936, many of the agricultural workers in the country were not getting a sufficient wage for their labour. The Agricultural Wages Board was set up and was composed of representatives of the workers and the employers with a chairman appointed by the Minister for Agriculture. I cannot see why there is any objection to that board. There is representation from the workers and the employers. Surely it is not beyond those people to make an agreement and to decide upon an economic wage as far as the workers are concerned?

I would like to point out that the wage fixed by the board is not a maximum wage. It is a minimum wage. I would also like to point out—it has been my experience—that the minimum wage does not obtain to any great extent in the country. As a matter of fact, it is my experience that the wages paid are far in excess of the minimum wage. Of course, I would say, in passing, that it shows how far Deputies Kyne, Dunne and Desmond are representative of the agricultural workers of this country. Having regard to the statements made here to-night, I would say that they actually have no knowledge whatsoever of the conditions of the agricultural worker. The Agricultural Wages Board was set up for the purpose of fixing a minimum wage but there were other conditions in connection with which it had to lay down regulations.

For instance, they had a weekly wage to consider. In many parts of the country we have conditions obtaining where you have a weekly wage. That condition obtains in practically all of Leinster and in portions of Munster. Then in other districts you have an hourly wage, in other districts a monthly wage, and in others a half-yearly wage. All these had to be taken into consideration by the Wages Board in fixing an amount for each of the various districts.

Again, they had to take into consideration different districts. For instance, you have a special wage for the Dublin area. You have another wage for a portion of Kildare, Cork City, Meath and Wicklow. Again, you have a different wage for Clare, Limerick— adjacent to the city—and parts of Waterford and Kilkenny. All these areas had to be taken into consideration in fixing what was considered an adequate wage. The reason for that differential in many parts of the country is the proximity of many parts to the towns, where you pay a higher wage because of the higher cost of living. We know that in the areas around Dublin there would be a higher cost of living than there would be around the town of Kildare. We also know that the farmers in County Dublin may get a higher price for produce than the farmers around Kildare. Consequently, the Wages Board have evaluated the wage there and have given the highest wage to the agricultural workers there—or rather they have fixed the highest minimum wage. It has happened and is happening—it has happened in County Dublin, for instance—that even though the minimum wage was fixed there was a strike later. The wages in Dublin were increased by 10/- a week, after negotiations between the worker and the farmer.

I believe that as far as the functions of the Agricultural Wages Board are concerned they have been satisfactory up to the present. I remember, prior to 1936, back in the 1928-29-30 period, we had a slump in this country and agricultural wages fell as low as 10/- a week, due to the slump. When prices increased the farmer increased the wages. So it is to-day that there are very few men working for the minimum wage in this country. I am surprised that any Deputy should state here that an agricultural worker was working in County Wexford for 10/- a week. I would go further and say that if I were a Labour representative for County Wexford I would not permit that to happen. The machinery is there, the Agricultural Wages Board is responsible for seeing that the Act is carried out, and I am sure that in no case have they refused to consider representations made by a Deputy or by their inspectors in order to ensure that at least the minimum was paid. Therefore I do not believe these things are happening. It may be the imagination of some of our Deputies, or this may be said for the purpose of making a good case here in the House, but I think it shows great lack of knowledge of the actual position.

The Minister has just said that there is more than the minimum wage paid. Is not that a case for a review of the present wage?

Mr. Walsh

It is a question of fixing a minimum wage. After that there are various reasons why more is paid. We know all men are not of the same efficiency; we know that there are some farms where one agricultural worker is regarded as being a member of the family and is given special treatment, so he cannot get as high a wage as another man, though he is getting it in kind. Anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of agricultural conditions knows that what I am saying is true. There are different conditions also in industrial concerns In some cases you can press a button and put a machine in motion and press the button again to stop it. That does not obtain on the farm. We know some farmers are paying much higher than the minimum wage.

That is the point I make.

Mr. Walsh

We do not know of any farmers paying a lesser wage, and if there are some it is the duty of Deputy Hickey and others to inform the Wages Board.

The Minister is making a good case for an increase.

Mr. Walsh

Why should anyone try to make a case here on a man working for 10/- a week? If there is such a man, there is machinery to see that that should not occur. It is not something on which you can build a case. What we want are factual statements and that is not a factual statement.

I am prepared to continue with the Wages Board, as I do not think there is any other machinery more suitable. Does Deputy Dunne want this House to fix a wage for agricultural labourers all over the country? He mentions £4 here. There are farmers paying far in excess of £4.

That is a case for a review.

Mr. Walsh

If a farmer has an efficient man, he is not restricted to any wage but may pay more for that efficiency—and he has been doing that. Does Deputy Dunne want to make a case for the inefficient man? I know what Deputy Dunne would like—to make a case for himself. We have men on the Agricultural Wages Board. It is my responsibility as Minister to nominate those people and my function finishes there. Deputy Dunne would like this House to say that he and his colleagues should be the people who would make nominations, but while it is my function to do it I will nominate the people. I believe that the board has fulfilled its service and I do not know of any machinery that would improve on it.

What about the Labour Court?

Mr. Walsh

All these courts are fulfilling a duty to the country.

They can go to the Labour Court, of course.

Mr. Walsh

There is no necessity for them to go to the Labour Court. This board has been constituted so as to give them representation. Are there not four representatives of the workers and four of the employers?

What about the neutral boys? They are the boys.

Mr. Walsh

Who are the neutral boys?

They are certainly not the farm labourers.

Mr. Walsh

They are not the farmers. From my experience here, I know that many of the city dwellers have very little regard for the farmers. This motion would, in my opinion, do an injury to the efficient agricultural worker. It would restrict his wages to £4, whereas in many cases he is getting more than that.

He is not getting it in County Cork. I will stand by what I say.

Mr. Walsh

It is the Deputy's duty to see that he is getting the minimum.

He is getting the minimum, but not £4.

Mr. Walsh

A few minutes ago the Deputy said men were getting less than the minimum.

I never said it. In all fairness, I would ask the Minister to withdraw that.

Mr. Walsh

Very well. If the Deputy did not say it, his colleague did. What one missed, the other thought of. In my opinion, it is not true that there are such low wages paid in the country; and if it is true and if Deputies know that it is true, it is their duty to see that it does not happen. They would be much better employed in doing that than in coming along here with a motion such as we have here to-night. I move the adjournment of the debate.

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