Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 27 Nov 1951

Vol. 127 No. 9

Adjournment Debate—Droichead Nua Town Commissioners.

Mr. Sweetman

Last Thursday I asked the Minister for Local Government a question in regard to the letting of a hall in Droichead Nua, County Kildare. That question had reference to two previous questions which were asked on the 31st October, last. In the reply to the first question that was asked on the 31st October, the Minister indicated that he had no information and that the letting of the hall was a matter for the local authority. When I put down a further question on this matter last Thursday, the Minister gave me a fairly lengthy reply which, quite frankly, at the time I did not quite hear in its entirety. It was only when I came to read his reply in the Official Report that I realised the full significance of the reply and the attitude that the Minister was adopting.

We all know that under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, the chief executive officer of any local authority and all other officers are subject, not merely to the control of the local authority but also to the control of the Minister. In Section 11 of that Act the specific provision is set forth that whenever, in the opinion of any local authority or of the Minister, there is reason to believe that an officer or servant of a local authority has failed to perform satisfactorily the duties of his position, the Minister is entitled to take certain steps. The County Management Act of 1940 makes it clear that the executive functions of the local authority are to be performed by the county manager, who is to be the chief executive authority and who, by virtue of the fact that it is declared to be an office of the local authority, is therefore subject to the control of the Minister which is contained in the 1926 Act.

The question I put down asked the Minister to ensure that in the future the chief executive officer of this or indeed of any other local authority would not act in the way it was indicated he had acted on this occasion. I asked the Minister whether he had read the report of a meeting of the Droichead Nua Town Commissioners in which this matter was somewhat fully reported. In his reply, the Minister took the line that the letting of local authority halls was an executive function performed by the county manager and that he did not propose to interfere with the discretion of the exercise of his function by the manager. I want to suggest quite categorically that this is a case in which the Minister should interfere. It is because he has indicated that he does not intend to interfere not merely in respect of the case which has happened—because that, so far as it is concerned, is finished and done with—but that he does not intend to interfere to ensure that, in the future, in Kildare or in any other county, there will not be a recurrence of the type of incident in question that I have raised this matter on the Adjournment to-night.

What, in fact, did occur? The Droichead Nua Town Commissioners have recently reconstructed their hall and have made it into a very fine dance hall. In the ordinary way, they discussed and considered certain regulations and provisions which would be desirable in regard to the letting of the hall. One of the provisions they discussed and one of the things they decided upon was that it was undesirable that anybody or any bodies who owed money for previous lettings should again be considered for future lettings. That, obviously, was a desirable stipulation so as to prevent bad debts. There were several applications for a particular night—St. Stephen's Night, the 26th December. It appears quite clear from the report that the Minister has before him in the newspaper, and to which I have made reference in my question, that at least one and I think two of the bodies in question did owe moneys at the time.

I may add that I am in a little difficulty in regard to the newspaper report because there was only one copy of the newspaper in the library, and when I went to get it for the purpose of this debate to-night I found that the Minister had already borrowed it. Therefore, if I misquote anything, I hope the Minister will make due allowance for the fact that I have not the newspaper here.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Smith)

I will give it to the Deputy now—for all the use it is to me.

Mr. Sweetman

It is a pity that the Minister did not say that some little time ago. There were various applications for the hall for the particular night in question. As I understand the position, the town commissioners met on a particular night. No mention of the executive function that the manager was going to exercise was made by him to the town commissioners. In that, he was quite within his authority. But, apparently, at a later hour that night the county manager adjourned to other premises in the town and, having adjourned to these other premises, there summoned the town clerk to meet him. With the town clerk he considered in these private premises the executive business of the town commissioners. I do not know who was present on the occasion, but I do know that, in addition to the county manager and the town clerk, there was present a Bord na Móna employee who was not a member of the town commissioners nor in any way an official of that body. I also know that the premises in which all this occurred were licensed premises, though it was in the private part of the licensed premises that I understand the discussions took place and the business of the town commissioners was transacted. I do not know whether the owner of these premises was present. I know that the owner is a person who regularly presides for Fianna Fáil when they have their public meetings in the town of Droichead Nua.

At this transaction of the business of the commissioners that took place, so far as I can understand from the report of the newspaper that the Minister has in front of him and so far as I can understand from the other inquiries that I have been enabled to make, the names of five bodies were considered for the letting of the hall. Two of these bodies, I am led to believe, were in default financially to the commissioners and, under the stipulations laid down by the elected members, should not have been considered at all. Be that as it may, the position arose, according to what we are told, that names were put into a hat. The county manager, for the purpose of deciding what persons or bodies were going to have this plum night of the year for a dance, decided not that he would take the decision, not that the town clerk would take the decision but that an utter stranger who was not a member of the town commissioners nor an official of such local authority but an employee of Bord na Móna who happened to be on the same premises and who happens also to be well known as a prominent Fianna Fáil supporter, would be the person—according to the report in the newspaper to which I have referred —to draw the names out of the hat.

Mr. Smith

They must all be Fianna Fáil supporters down there.

Mr. Sweetman

The house in which this transaction took place is a well-known Fianna Fáil house. It is because the business of the local authority was taken from the precincts where it should have been transacted into this well-known Fianna Fáil house that I think the matter has received some of the publicity it has received.

We had some heavy and acrimonious debates in the last Dáil about what was the private portion of a licensed premises. In the private portion of these licensed premises, which belonged to the chairman who presides over the local Fianna Fáil Party, drawn by a well-known supporter of Fianna Fáil, lo and behold, out of the hat comes the local Cumann of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Smith

That is the principal snag.

Mr. Sweetman

It is a clear snag, a snag which requires some very strong convincing for the people of the constituency. But that is done and gone, and the Minister's Party has got away with it. I hope they have a good dance. I am concerned not merely with that but also with the last question I asked the Minister: whether he will issue instructions to prevent recurrences of such an incident. It seems to me to be an extraordinary position, having regard to the powers that the Minister is given under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, and to which I have referred, if the Minister is not prepared, now that he is aware of these facts, to issue instructions to provide that, in future, the county manager, when carrying on the executive functions of the local authority, will carry them on in proper places and will ensure in so doing that those who are not entitled to be present are not, in fact, present.

It is because the Minister has indicated that he does not propose to take any steps to prevent a recurrence of a position like that, that I have raised this matter on the Adjournment. Up to last Thursday I was prepared to allow the matter to rest with the quips that the Minister and I had across the floor of the House, and which I noticed were not considered of sufficient import to be incorporated in the record. It seems to me that it will make the transaction of the executive functions nothing but farcical if you are going to have a position in the future in which the executive official carrying out these functions will not do the job himself with his officials, and ensure that, so far as possible, these transactions are carried out in premises belonging to one or other of the local authorities in the county. I can understand the Minister making it clear that it is not possible to lay down a completely hard and fast rule that most executive functions can never be carried on except in a premises belonging to one or other of the local authorities. I can visualise the county manager being ill, and it being necessary for him to make an order from his own private house to carry out his functions. What I am concerned with is to ensure that when he is carrying out his executive functions in County Kildare or in County Carlow, where he is joint manager, or where a county manager is doing so in any other county, he will do it in such a way that it will be clear and above question that he is the person who is doing it in an official way, and so far as possible, in the premises provided for the local authority for the transaction of such business.

Mr. J. Flynn

If action is to be taken in this case in regard to the county manager in Kildare, I would suggest also that the Minister inquire into the position in Kerry.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a long way from County Kerry to County Kildare.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Kerry County Council can deal with that matter, Deputy.

Mr. Smith

I have always heard and believed that Kildare was a sporting county and I am sure that Deputy Sweetman, who represents it, would himself claim to be a sport, but his attitude on this matter reminds me of the publican who suspected one of his employees of tampering, not so much with the till as with what was in it. One evening when removing the cash, he saw a sovereign lying in the bottom of the till. The publican put it standing on its edge in the corner of the till and said: "I will watch at closing time, the suspect, a young man, came into the bar. He did not expect that there would be much in the till. He saw the gold coin. There was nobody in the bar. He took the coin out of the till, turned it over in his hand and, partly aloud, said: "Ah, I will keep it." Then he said it would not be fair to do that. He then decided that he would toss the boss for it. He thereupon spun the coin and called. On looking at the coin he found that it had come down in favour of the boss. The young man was very disappointed. After a pause he said: "I will toss it again." At this point the boss stepped out of his place of concealment and said: "Now, if you had abided by the first toss of the coin I might not have taken any action, but since you did not I must remove you from my employment."

I think myself that the reason for much of the feeling that has arisen here is because Fianna Fáil did benefit by the toss of the coin in this case. To that extent, I think that Deputy Sweetman and those for whom he spoke on this matter have shown themselves to be very poor sports. The fact that this draw took place in a licensed premises—I did not gather that from the report to which Deputy Sweetman has referred me—would seem to suggest that there is something very objectionable about a licensed premises.

One would often think, when listening to statements such as those made by Deputy Sweetman, that they are places to which we should never go at all. It is a strange thing that when we are looking for money whether for the Church, political organisations or other purposes we have no objection to consult the barman or the proprietor. We want his vote. We want his support and we want his money. Yet such a place, according to Deputy Sweetman, is not a suitable place in which to be seen, especially if one happens to be performing the functions of a county manager.

With regard to this matter of prescribing that the work associated with local bodies such as the town commissioners should be performed in a certain place, I am in complete and absolute disagreement with what the Deputy suggests. The information as given in the paper to which I was referred by the Deputy was to the effect that the county manager had been with the clerk from 2.30 p.m. and that the business of the town commissioners continued up to 10 p.m. Prior to that, the county manager had been accustomed to taking a meal in this particular premises. I do not suppose, even if the lady or gentleman who owned the premises were Fianna Fáil supporters, there was any reason why a county manager, if he so decided, should not get his meals on such premises. I do not think it was wrong for a county manager knowing that it was an executive function, knowing that it was the only item of business to be performed and knowing that he would have to walk to the place in which the business was being done or whatever it was that was being done, he simply rang the town clerk and asked him to come along in order that one matter would be decided.

Possibly there should be a stipulation as to the sort of hat that should be used on an occasion like that—that it should not be the county manager's hat, but a hat belonging to a member of the town commissioners and certainly not the hat of a Fianna Fáil supporter, because it would not be right that the names of these four organisations should be thrown into such a hat and some person asked to put in his hand and take out one, which one happened to be Fianna Fáil. Do we not know as practical people that, in the case of all organisations, when draws of one kind or another are being held, it is a customary thing, whether the draw is being held in a hall or otherwise, for the person conducting the draw to call upon some little boy or girl to come up and draw the name? Why should the manager stipulate that the actual draw should be made by a member of the staff of the local body or by a member of the local body itself? I must say that I cannot see the reasoning behind it.

Is it not customary for officials of all kinds, and especially responsible officials, to take their work home with them at night? What senior official in this State will not from time to time bring home files and deal with them in his bedroom and what can be wrong with a county manager discharging these functions in the manner I have described? I have no notion whatever of interfering in the way suggested with functions of local bodies and executive officers in this regard. I know that they are sensible enough and I know that the members of the councils will see to it that nothing that is either wrong or undesirable transpires. From reading the discussion that took place following the draw, one can easily see that the whole matter was not taken very seriously by the majority of the body in question.

Mr. Sweetman

I must differ from the Minister in that regard.

Mr. Smith

I am very disappointed that Deputy Sweetman—it is not that I have any objection to having to be here at this late hour—should have used this half-hour which is provided for the discussion of serious matters to keep us here to discuss something which is so frivolous that it is not really worthy of him or of our consideration.

Mr. Sweetman

So long as the boys get the hall, that is all that matters.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 28th November, 1951.