Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1952

Vol. 129 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 70—Technical Assistance.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1952, for Grants-in-Aid in connection with Technical Assistance afforded by the United States Economic Cooperation Administration and for other expenditure on Technical Assistance.

In introducing this Supplementary Estimate I wish to take the opportunity of thanking the American Government and the American people for the technical assistance which under the previous Congress legislation they have extended to us and to our people generally. The need for this Supplementary Estimate arises from the fact that the Congress of the United States has recently passed legislation under which they find themselves unable to defray further expenditure on technical assistance projects except those for which definite and unavoidable contracts had been made before the 8th January of this year. The Government, notwithstanding this, has decided that facilities should continue to be provided to encourage our producers to seek expert assistance.

This Supplementary Estimate is necessary in order to widen the ambit of the Technical Assistance Vote to enable this to be done during the balance of this year. The necessary provision, of course, is made in the Estimates for the coming year.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Minister tell us what the technical schemes are which he proposes to finance?

Mr. MacEntee

There is a considerable number still in progress and it is merely necessary to enable us to complete those which are still——

Mr. Dillon

Still what? Can you tell us what they are?

Mr. MacEntee

I can.

Mr. Dillon

It is not an unreasonable request.

Mr. MacEntee

Not unreasonable at all, but I think it would be better if the Deputy put down the question; then I could give him full information, because there are some projects here still to be dealt with.

Mr. MacBride

But the Minister is looking for money from the House.

Mr. Dillon

I think we ought to know what it is for.

Mr. MacEntee

I have said that this £2,500 is necessary to complete those projects in respect of which commitments have been entered into but not definite formal contracts. The projects which are in progress at present number over eight. There are other projects under consideration at the present moment. Those which are in progress at the present moment are as follows:

Department of Agriculture. Visit of officer of Department to the United States for six months to study plant nutrition.

Mr. MacBride

May I interrupt the Minister to inquire if these projects are in progress or have been carried out?

Mr. MacEntee

These are in progress:

Visit to the United States of officer of Department for six months to study soil research.

Visit of United States experts to advise Bórd na Móna on measures for increasing the productivity of the peat industry and improving the equipment for excavation, handling and utilising peat for fuel and the recovery of its products.

Tests in U.S. of drying of milled peat.

Visit of U.S. experts to carry out comprehensive survey of industrial development.

Visit of U.S. experts to survey animal protein feeding-stuffs industry.

Visit of U.S. experts to survey food processing and food storage industries.

Visit of U.S. experts to advise on various aspects of sugar beet industry, including maintenance, factory design, agricultural engineering, cost accountancy, plant breeding and plant pathology.

Joint mission of employers and trade unions delegates to study methods of productivity and labour conditions.

This project has been only partially completed because only the representatives of the Congress of Irish Unions have visited the United States. The Trades Union Congress delegation have not visited the United States because of certain difficulties which have arisen in regard to personnel.

Certain projects which have been suspended by E.C.A., some of which, it is hoped, will be taken up as soon as we get the necessary authority from the Dáil, are as follows:—

Visit of scientific officer of Department to U.S. for four months to study statistical methods in connection with agricultural research work.

Visit of superintendent of Johnstown Agricultural College to U.S. for four months to study plant-breeding methods.

Visit of U.S. expert to Ireland for two months to advise on the utilisation of milk supplies.

Visit of U.S. expert to Ireland for two months to advise on a programme for the provision of grain storage.

Visit of Department veterinarian to U.S. for six months to study abnormalities and diseases in newborn animals.

Visit of technician of Department to U.S. for four months to study soil classification, clay mineral research, etc.

There are a considerable number of projects which are temporarily suspended. We anticipate that the projects, amounting to 41, which will be financed will be of that particular nature.

Mr. MacBride

I would like to join in the expression of thanks voiced by the Minister for Finance to the United States Administration in regard to the assistance which they made available to this country for technical assistance. I think that probably in the long run this will be one of the most lasting benefits to this country which, in common with the other European countries, benefited from the Marshall Plan.

I have no objection to this Vote but I feel that the Minister has been a little bit perfunctory in the information which he made available to the House. As I understand it, though the Minister has not told us so, this Vote is necessitated by reason of the fact that some hitch has occurred between this Government and the United States Administration, as regards the implementation of the technical assistance projects. I feel that we might have been given a little more information on that subject. I do not want to pursue the matter because the question is still under discussion between the two Governments.

I do not wish to ask any question which might embarrass the Government in any discussions it may be having with the United States Administration. However, I would like to ask the Minister whether this sum now being voted is rendered necessary by reason of the hitch. The sum which is being sought under this vote would, as I understand the position, have been made available by the United States authorities had this hitch not occurred. Am I right in that? I feel that it is very desirable that the Government should itself finance these technical assistance projects even if the hitch has occurred. We may as well know what the existing position is.

Mr. Dillon

It is extremely difficult to approach an Estimate of this kind when the Minister for Finance comes into the House and asks for money, has a list of the matters for which this money is required before him on the desk, but thinks it too much trouble to read it out. However, if he thought it too much trouble to read out the list, he might very easily have circulated a White Paper with his Estimate, and we would have been very glad to read it and so spare him the trouble of doing so. I feel it to be a very dangerous trend when the procedure of this House is reduced to the level that we are asked to go through the motions of voting public money, although nobody in the House knows for what purpose the public money is required, because the Minister for Finance finds it too much of a nuisance either to get a list printed for our information or to read it out.

When these projects were largely financed out of the generous affluence of the United States Treasury, I felt it was right and reasonable for the Irish Government to give very great weight to the views of some of the distinguished gentlemen who came here in the service of the E.C.A. and who were urged by the Irish Government to feel at home in this country. They were urged to speak out frankly in respect of any matter which would help to increase the productivity of the land and to be assured that, no matter what their animadversions would be, they would be interpreted as being inspired by friendly solicitude meant for the best interests of Ireland, whether we liked or whether we did not like such animadversions.

I am bound to say that on occasion proposals were submitted to me, when Minister for Agriculture, to bespeak courses of instruction in America for technical officers of the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order. I know that Deputy Dillon's ignorance of Standing Orders is abysmal, but the point of order I want to put is that this is a Supplementary Estimate, that the discussion must be confined within the narrow limits of the sub-heads and that we are not entitled to talk about anything that happened in regard to Deputy Dillon's administration of this Estimate. I know we could say quite a lot if we opened up that debate.

Mr. Dillon

That is a point of order!

Mr. MacEntee

I am merely pointing out that Deputy Dillon's references to his administration as Minister for Agriculture have nothing to do with it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will confine himself to technical assistance projects other than those with regard to E.C.A.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister gave us particulars——

Mr. MacEntee

I gave you examples of the type of work.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister gave the House some half-dozen of the 41 projects in progress or in suspension pending provision by Dáil Éireann of the money he now seeks. He said he was too tired to read out all the 41. Of the few he read out he spoke of some which were designed to send technical officers of the Department of Agriculture to the United States for courses of instruction varying from four to six months.

Mr. MacEntee

I did not say that it was proposed. I said that that was the nature of the project. On the point of order I made, I pointed out that sub-head C which is the only sub-head we are entitled to discuss is for grants towards technical projects other than those sponsored by the E.C.A. I gather Deputy Dillon is now discussing projects which were approved by the E.C.A. and that that has got nothing to do with the Vote.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister's garrulousness is a bit muddled, as it not infrequently is. When the Minister was concluding his introductory remarks on this Estimate, I asked him would he indicate to the House any of the purposes for which he was asking this money. After much coughing and gasping, he said he would, if I would extend to him the indulgence of waiting while he searched through his brief to find the appropriate page. He then found the page and he started, as I understood it, to read from the page. Then he said there were 41 entries on this page and that it was too long for him to read out. Now there can be no manner of doubt that the seven matters which he mentioned specifically certainly created on the minds of the House that those were seven of 41 projects, for the completion of which, or the revival of which, this money was required.

Mr. MacEntee

These were examples of the type of projects, the cost of which would be defrayed out of the moneys to be provided.

Mr. Dillon

I am much obliged to the Minister for his interpolation.

Mr. MacEntee

They are indications.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is concerned only to see that the debate is confined to the purpose for which this supplementary sum is required.

Mr. Dillon

I propose to refer to nothing but the seven specific examples quoted by the Minister.

Mr. MacEntee

Merely as examples of the type of project.

Mr. Dillon

Do I take it, that whatever purpose these seven specific items were for, they are relevant to the debate?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

So long as they are covered by the Supplementary Vote.

Mr. MacEntee

May I point out that they are not relevant? They were merely quoted as examples of the type of project.

General MacEoin

Why did you quote them then?

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order, if Deputy MacEoin would forbear for a moment, I was asked to give some examples of the type of project and the best example I could give was those projects which are in course of progress. These are projects which unfortunately are being carried out, projects which have been approved by the United States European Economic Cooperation Administration. It is not in order to discuss these projects now because they do not come within the categories of projects for which the moneys asked for under sub-head E are provided. I merely mentioned them to quicken the recollection of Deputy Dillon as to what had been done in his own Department. Apparently, he is trying to take advantage of my effort to refresh his memory as to what his own Department was doing when he was Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Dillon

Is this a point of order?

Mr. MacBride

Can we be told what this money is needed for?

Mr. MacEntee

As I have already said, to encourage our producers to seek expert assistance.

Mr. Dillon

Is this still a point of order?

Mr. MacEntee

In order to enable them to increase production.

Mr. MacBride

There must be some specific proposal.

Mr. MacEntee

I can give the nature of the proposal. We know we shall want some money to get things going this year. We want, in order that nothing will be left out, to enlarge the ambit of the Vote.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Since the Minister has pointed out that the seven projects are not covered by the Supplementary Estimate, there can be no discussion on them.

Mr. Dillon

Very well; I shall turn to the 34 he did not mention. Is it not astonishing that the Minister for Finance, the custodian of the public purse, can come to Dáil Eireann and say: "I want a sum of money under certain heads" and before the debate is initiated he is asked: "Will you, for the convenience of the House and to save time, at this stage tell us broadly what are the specific purposes for which the money is required"? He stands up and sways like a lily in the wind and says: "If the Deputy will bear with me I will search my brief." He searches his brief and then he reads out seven separate sub-heads and sits down. When they are referred to he puts in: "Oh, that was put in to make it more difficult. Those are seven projects to which this Estimate does not refer. That is why I read them out." Outside Bedlam has a Minister for Finance ever, on being asked to state the purpose for which money is being sought, read from his brief seven separate items for no better purpose than to be afforded an opportunity ten minutes later of saying: "Oh, you are quite mistaken. I read these items but it was not to tell you the purpose for which the money was wanted; it was to tell you the purpose for which the money was not wanted."

The Minister need not have referred to his brief for that. He could have told me the money was not wanted to paint Nelson's Pillar or that it was not wanted to buy a druid's robe for Deputy Little. The number of things for which this money is not wanted could be woven into a saga by any one of them, but the astonishing thing is that the Minister, having himself mentioned them, on hearing them referred to by a member of the Opposition, throws up his hands in holy horror at this incredible breach of order and the irrelevancy which such references indicate. The Minister ought to learn that those who behave with a moderate degree of reason, such as might be expected from a child in the sixth book, will usually get a reasonable accommodation from this House, but Ministers who come into this House flouncing their petticoats like spoiled children——

Mr. MacEntee

Monica Duff's petticoats.

Mr. Dillon

What does the Minister say?

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy was talking about flouncing petticoats. I mentioned a long-deceased lady in that connection.

Mr. Dillon

Now, I am out of my depth. In these circumstances may I be permitted to move to report progress?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.