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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 May 1953

Vol. 138 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration—(Deputy Rooney).

Let me, at the outset, compliment the Minister on the very subtle manner in which he has introduced the additional taxation which he proposes under the Estimate —and particularly on an evening such as this, Budget evening. We have had loud applause from the Government Benches because no additional taxation has been imposed upon the taxpayer as a result of the Budget introduced by the Minister for Finance to-day. But here, in the quiet of the evening, at the bottom of the page, we have a subtle attempt to do the very thing the Budget proposes not to do, namely, to impose additional taxation. It is usual, I understand, on Budget day for the Minister to introduce these various additional taxes which the country may be required to bear during the coming financial year. I think we have departed from the usual procedure and used back door methods for acquiring this additional income which, in former years, was collected in the manner which I have described.

I protest against these additional charges which the Minister proposes to inflict upon the public. Deputy Dillon described it very well the otherday when he said he would sooner have a tooth extracted than wait for a trunk call.

Did he mean his wisdom tooth?

That has gone long ago.

You can take it from me that Deputy Dillon has a very long wisdom tooth. Mind you, it is not filled with gold.

Is that the one he wants extracted?

The pain of having a tooth extracted is bad enough, but when the dentist increases the charge for the extraction—and imposes additional pain by way of strain on the patient's pocket—I do not blame Deputy Dillon for what he said.

If we had the efficient telephone service that is provided in other countries such as Britain and America then there would be some justification for increased telephone charges. But we have not got that service. In fairness to the present Minister I must say that he is making a serious effort to improve the position with apparatus which was purchased by his predecessor in office, Deputy Everett. I refer, in particular, to the radio-telephone service to the islands which the Minister told me some time last year would be installed in the spring of this year. We are waiting for that service. I was assured by Deputy Everett, on whose instructions this apparatus was procured, that it was the most efficient and up-to-date to be acquired. I should like to see this particular apparatus installed forthwith and particularly before the coming autumn.

I should like to thank the Minister for accepting two suggestions which I put forward last year on the discussion of the Estimate for his Department. I suggested to him that it would be most beneficial to the fish trade generally if the prices of fish could be broadcast each day. I am very glad that the Minister accepted my advice on the matter. However I did not like his method of informing my colleague for West Donegal whenhe was about to do it and inspiring a question by him as to when it was proposed to carry out the suggestion made by me.

I am also glad that the Minister has accepted my suggestion that more time should be given to a broadcast review of Dáil Debates. I think that that additional information each evening at 11 o'clock on events in this House is most beneficial to the public generally.

That Estimate is not being debated.

The Post Office Estimate is before the House at the moment.

I apologise on that account. I will confine my remarks, then, to the increased charges which have been announced by the Minister.

I suggest that the Deputy confine his remarks to the Post Office Estimate.

Some months ago this very Minister for Posts and Telegraphs announced an increase in the price of wireless licences. Now he tells us that it is proposed to increase the charges in respect of the telephone service, telegrams and postage. I agree with the Taoiseach in his statement the other day that we have reached the limit of taxation. Evidently, the Minister for Finance accepted the Taoiseach's statement in that respect, but the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs finds a quiet way of slipping around the broad principle which was outlined by the Taoiseach and adopted by the Minister for Finance. In his own quiet and unobtrusive way, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs proceeds to collect additional revenue—at the same time telling the public and the country generally that the Budget is a standstill Budget.

No reputable postmaster-general in the whole of Europe calls them "taxes".

What do the disreputable ones call them?

"Reliefs."

So long as it is extra money which must come out of the pockets of the paying public, then they are "taxes" so far as I am concerned. It is the one thing about this particular Estimate which I wish to protest against.

I am amazed at the line which the Deputy who has just sat down took in his speech. I do not know whether it is a genuine or pretended emphasis——

Anything I say is always said genuinely. You may rest assured about that.

He was protesting against this indirect method of taxation. Surely the charges for the use of postal services cannot, by any stretch of imagination, be called taxes? Posts, telegraphs and telephones are services rendered for the community. The Post Office is supposed to be run on commercial lines and if the charges made for the services given bring a very heavy deficit and that deficit has to be made up by obtaining it from the taxpayers, then we are taxing the people for a loss in that service which is not met because the charges to the users happen to be insufficient. I wonder how many people who have not got telephones in their homes, who rarely receive or send a letter, like having to subsidise, even by indirect taxation, the facilities accorded to people who have telephones in their houses for convenience, who use telegrams for all purposes, business, sport, and so forth, and who see areas in the country with services brought up almost to the same standard of efficiency as a city service.

Was it not always a paying concern?

It does pay.

We are talking about posts, telegraphs and telephones. Theservice has to be taken together; one end of it pays; another end loses, but the over-all picture of it is that the total amount received by way of charges happens to be insufficient to meet the over-all cost. Consequently it has to be decided what is the best way to meet it, whether to tax the people to meet the deficit or to make the users pay, as far as possible, for the services they get.

The Deputy who has just sat down has expressed alarming apprehension at the amount, £750,000, which the Minister proposes to get by way of these additional charges. How long is it since Deputy Everett, as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, brought into this House additional charges which would have meant £1,000,000 extra for the users?

What charges?

As a matter of fact, if the Deputy thinks back clearly he will recall that there was an attempt made by Deputy Everett as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to bring in certain additional charges when he was introducing his Estimate. It was such a surprise to the then members of the House, including the supporters of the then Government, that the Estimate was beaten by a Vote in the House and certain changes had to be made and certain proposals had to be withdrawn.

There were no changes.

It was put to the House next morning.

I do not know what kind of a brain Deputy Rooney has. He always wants to have it every way. I have made a statement that the then Government was beaten on the Estimate of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs because of certain additional charges which were being brought about in his Estimate. Deputy Rooney is trying to suggest that because the Government next morning on a vote of confidence were reinstated instead of having to resign, my statement is not correct. They came back here; they withdrew the charges andthen the Estimate was passed. I do not know what Deputy Rooney means by trying to suggest that what I am saying is not correct.

It is not correct. Give us the figures.

It is still not correct? The Deputy says it is not an historical fact that the Coalition Government was beaten on the Estimate of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs? Does the Deputy still say that it is not an historical fact?

On the wireless Estimate.

Not at all.

I think I will have to develop an understanding of how to cackle; perhaps then the Deputy might understand me better.

You have something the cat brought in over there. You are all right.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

The Opposition are complaining that the Minister is seeking to obtain a certain sum of money, £750,000, which they say is by a subterfuge. I am informed that the actual amount which will come into the Post Office coffers in the balance of the financial year as a result of these increased charges will be something around £590,000. But whether it is £590,000 or £750,000 it is all the same from the point of view of principle.

I read in the newspapers the other day, as, I suppose, many other Deputies did, that a telephone subscriber stated that she had the telephone for convenience. It suited her to use the telephone rather than to walk the mile to town to do her shopping or to get certain messages. But now because there was going to be a slight increase in the cost of the telephone she was going to deny herself that service; the telephone authorities could take back her phone and she was going to walk the mile to town and back every day in order to save the additional amount. That is the very point.

Are her neighbours expected to pay by way of taxation, direct or indirect, to make up the deficit in order to meet her need for convenience, just to protect her from having to walk the mile? That is the answer to the whole situation.

She is as much entitled to it as the Deputy.

Everybody is entitled to whatever convenience she may be able to avail of provided she does not expect her neighbours to pay for that convenience while they have no such convenience.

I have heard in this House almost every week questions addressed to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs asking him to improve the postal services in this district or that district so as to have daily services, instead of services on alternate days, and to have full-time rather than part-time postmen. The people making these requests know full well that the amount of mail which a rural postman has to deliver is absolutely insignificant as compared with the amount which an urban postman has to deliver. If the people are entitled to these services, those who benefit by them must pay for them.

Coming to another aspect of the matter, it has always been accepted that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is run on commercial lines and keeps commercial accounts. Are we to take it from the attitude of the Opposition that they want the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to develop gradually into the position of, say, C.I.E., that irrespective of costs of administration or irrespective of the size of the deficit on the year's working, the Post Office should come in here every year and get a vote of £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 to cover the deficit, that the charges must remain static but the services must be improved and everybody must be satisfied, that the taxpayer must pay but not the user? Unless the public are made to realise that is the position you are not going to have efficient administration. If the administration in the Post Office find an easy way out, just sit back and say: "Let the Dáil votethe amount of the deficit every year," you are not going to have efficient administration, whereas if users are forced to pay, so far as possible, the actual cost and if there are still deficits at the end of the year and the Minister has to come to the House and ask for a subsidy or for increased charges, there will be a feeling in the minds of the officials that at some time or other there is going to be criticism and an inquiry into the administration. As a result of that mentality, which I believe they possess at the present time, they will be always worrying to make sure that there will be no unnecessary loss on the running of the Department.

We hear complaints about the telephone services. Many of us have had occasion to complain but, first of all, let us remember that whatever delays arose, mainly in trunk calls, were due up to recently to shortage of materials. There was consequently an inability on the part of the engineering staff to bring the services up to date.

On the one hand, we had a shortage of materials and, on the other hand, a very substantial increase in the number of users. We know that even at the moment there is still a considerable number of potential subscribers on the list waiting to be given telephone connections. Although I have mentioned a number of complaints to the Minister, on another occasion I had reason to compliment him and through him the Post Office staff on the wonderful improvement noticeable in trunk calls from Ireland to England and the Continent. I remember one had to wait almost four hours to get a connection to Paris and three hours was not an unusual wait to get a telephone connection to London. To-day whether the call be to Paris, London or any other part of England, there is a vast improvement in these services and there is practically no delay. So far as the internal service is concerned, I heard a Deputy saying this morning that it is easy now to ring up Cork whereas some time ago there was considerable delay.

It was always easy to ring up Cork.

What else could he say sitting between two Corkmen?

Whatever be the reason there has been a great improvement, I have been informed. I have also heard that the service between Dublin and Belfast shows equal improvement. I want to say to the Minister, however, that while it is true to say that there is practically no delay in getting connections to trunk exchanges, there is still a certain amount of delay in getting the exchange when one dials 0 whether for a local trunk call or a foreign call. Sometimes the person dialling may feel, as Deputy Dillon has described it, as if he were going to have a tooth extracted by having to wait so long. I understand that our telephone exchanges were in fact overworked up to recently—I am speaking of the mechanical side not of the human side. New exchanges are now being added and possibly with a little more modernisation, that problem will also cease to exist.

I mentioned on the last occasion on which I spoke on this Vote that the service is faulty in certain areas which have been provided with cable in recent years. It may have been that the material used was not up to standard and I would suggest to the Minister that, even if it means the scrapping of the material formerly used, where there is evidence that such faults exist he should take the bull by the horns, scrap faulty material and put down new wires.

As I said in the beginning, the telephone end should show a profit or a surplus. Telegrams, we know, have always shown a loss. I remember when we first started to increase the charges for telegrams, it was always said that if you made the telegram too costly you might lose all the customers who use that service. The charges for telegrams will go up again but I think that, if we take the sensible view, we must admit the Post Office is just as much entitled to put up its charges to meet running costs as is, for instance, the E.S.B. I have my own views about the E.S.B. and I do not want to discuss the matter now. Those who say that the E.S.B. is not a white elephant are those who will never complain that the charges there have been far more rapidly and vastly increased forthe consumer than have been the charges of the Post Office. If the Post Office is fair game here because it is attempting to do what is just, then I say there should be a fair comparison. The E.S.B. does not come looking for a subsidy.

We cannot discuss the E.S.B. charges by comparison with Post Office charges.

We are trying to throw light on the subject.

I do not want to see the Post Office relegated to the position where they will have to come in here year after year and ask for a Vote to make up a deficit in the running of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I say that because if it is supposed to be run on commercial lines it should be run on commercial lines and it should not be allowed to fall into the position in which C.I.E. finds itself. It should be put in the position of another State organisation which does not come into this House for anything except capital moneys. That organisation is enabled, without any criticism, to raise from time to time their charges in order to avoid a deficit.

The Deputy is discussing a body that is not before the House.

I am not trying to discuss the matter. I am giving an illustration. I did not wish to discuss the matter as we will have another opportunity of doing that. I am merely giving an illustration. We have Stateowned organisations which are run on commercial lines; they fix their charges according to their requirements. The Post Office is a commercial undertaking, and on this Estimate the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should be allowed, without the criticism which has been levelled at it now, to adjust its charges to meet the needs of running it as a commercial organisation. It is not run for profit. If by any chance there should be an over-all surplus as opposed to a deficit, obviously nobody would be more pleased to come to this House than the Minister and say that he would beable to reduce a certain charge. We cannot have it both ways.

As a user of telephones, private and commercial, I consider it most unjust that my workman, by paying his tax on cigarettes and entertainment, should pay a subsidy towards the use by me of the commercial operations of the Post Office, whether by way of telegram, letter or telephone. I think that is the line everyone should take. There are a great number of people who do not use telephones. I agree with the Minister—I see some criticism of this— that it is a very wise thing to leave the cost of public telephones as they are. These phones are used in the main by the type of person who cannot afford to have the convenience of a telephone and only uses it in an emergency— sometimes a very urgent emergency.

I say to the Minister that there are very many ways in which the trading possibilities of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs could be improved. For instance, we charge a rental and so much per call after so many calls. It might be possible—we may reach that stage soon—not to charge a rental at all but to charge a certain rate per call as is done in the United States, where there is no rental charge. In the United States they charge so much per call. There the Post Office is not a national institution but a commercial concern run for a profit. In the United States they have found it more profitable to entice a person to take a telephone into his house by not having him pay a rental. In that way, the person becomes a user by habit. We are still short of telephones for those who wish to become subscribers. They are not so many and the Minister may, during the year, consider the possibility of altering the charges for the actual call and make it possible for us to have a phone without a rental charge.

I agree that there are certain people who have telephones for their own modest use. They may use the telephone only for a small number of calls. There is another institution which charges a meter rent. The consumer of electricity in a small way has a higher rate to pay per unit because of the meter rent charge. In the sameway, the user of the telephone on a small scale finds his telephone costs so much higher because he has to pay this rental charge. I do not want to labour that matter any further. I consider, however, that the matter may be worthy of consideration when we have reached a certain stage.

Complaints have been made to me by telephone subscribers who move from one place to another and who experience very grave delay in the transfer of a telephone from the house they left to that in which they took up the new abode. It does not matter whether the place involved is an ordinary residence or a business. There should be some examination of that matter in order to speed it up. Everybody will agree that telephone subscribers who are left without a telephone for a month or six weeks feel lost. They become so accustomed to the telephone that, when they are left without it for four, five or six weeks, they are like fish out of water. I would ask the Minister to examine that question to see whether he can do something to speed up the transfer of the telephones. A special section might be set up in the Department to deal with the transfer of phones only. Some officer could be specifically put in charge who could be got in touch with directly rather than have to get through to the contracts department.

This service can on occasions be most efficient. Political Parties who establish a headquarters in a street during an election can get a telephone installed very quickly. That applies to all political Parties. That is all right but it proves that the Post Office can work with the greatest promptitude and efficiency. I would like to see some speeding up in regard to transfers of telephones.

There has been a great improvement in the matter of dealing with complaints in regard to faulty telephones which was a bone of contention amongst subscribers. Sometimes they had to wait three, four and five days for something to be done about it. That is in the happy beyond now. I think we can congratulate ourselves on the fact that we are getting better service from day to day. I do not knowwhether the Minister is using material that was ordered by his predecessor or material that was ordered by his pre-decessor's predecessor. The policy of the Department is the concern of the Minister. The administration of the Department is mainly the concern of the permanent Post Office staff from top to bottom. I am told that we have very good engineering staffs. The people we have in the telephone service are as good public servants as one could wish for, but at times, when we meet with certain difficulties or get complaints from those who have met with difficulties, we are all inclined to be irritable.

We come now to the point of letting the Post Office be run as it should be run—as a commercial undertaking— realising that its success in maintaining itself will depend on its efficiency. We must realise, too, that it should not be put in the position of having to scrimp and scrape here and there. If put in that position it will be all the harder for it to overcome the defects that must inevitably arise. Our aim should be to help the Post Office to increase its efficiency.

I have no complaint to make about the telegraph side of the Post Office. I get quite a number of telegrams. All Deputies do. When we are re-elected to the Dáil we get telegrams of congratulation, I will not say from thousands but from hundreds of our admirers.

They will be fewer the next time.

I am certain that the more often members on this side of the House come back after an election, and come back in even greater numbers, the more telegrams of congratulation they will receive. I do not think anyone is going to grumble about the cost of them. I imagine that, if Deputy Dockrell had heard of a little anniversary of mine recently, he probably would have been delighted to send me a telegram of congratulation and would not mind paying 1/9, 2/- or 2/6 for it. We also send messages ofsympathy by telegram, and messages of congratulation to our friends.

When we come to consider the postal side of the Department, it is well to remind the Deputies opposite that it was not this Government which abolished the cheap postcard. I think Deputy Everett could tell us something about that. At any rate, it was not the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, or the Fianna Fáil Government, who made the sending of a postcard dearer. I suppose it was necessary to do that, and it was done.

We have a good postal service. I know that I get my mails regularly, morning and evening. The deliveries are always on time, like an alarm clock. All of us want efficiency of that kind so far as the mails are concerned —domestic, cross-Channel and foreign. When we post letters, we like them to reach their destination in the shortest period of time. If we are given a good efficient service then, surely, we ought to be ready to pay for it. The wages of Post Office workers in all grades have been increased. The money to enable the Department to do that has to come out of the "kitty", and the "kitty" is kept full by those who use the Post Office services. Therefore, I think that the public will understand full well that this is not taxation. The object here is to bring about relief in taxation. I am sure that when Deputy Everett goes down to his constituency to prepare for the by-election he will not use these increases by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs as a reason why he is going to argue——

I will use every argument I can for the success of my candidate.

Deputy Everett sanctioned the £1,000,000 himself.

I will meet the Minister there on a platform, too.

What I was about to say was that, so far as this particular item is concerned, Deputy Everett will never attempt to tell the workers of Wicklow that it was a grave injustice on the part of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to make the users of the telephone and the senders of telegramspay for the cost of these services rather than make those workers pay for them by an additional charge on their cigarettes. That is one argument that Deputy Everett will not use. It may be a nice argument to use here in the hope that city dwellers and business concerns may feel that they have a grievance. No business concern that I know of will grumble at having to pay the full charge necessary to enable the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to give it the efficient service it wants.

I was rather surprised to hear Deputy Briscoe suggest that the taxpayer should pay extra for the telephone service so that others could have a cheap telegraph service to enable them to send messages of congratulation to their friends.

On a point of explanation, I did not say the taxpayer.

That was your whole case-that people should pay more for the telephone service in order that there should be a cheap telegraph service. If the telegraph service is only used for the purpose of sending messages of sympathy or messages of congratulation, why have it there at all, and why not use the telephone? Deputy Briscoe referred to the speech he made when I, as Minister, had to ask for an increase in charges to enable me to pay increased wages to the workers. I remember the speeches made at that time by Deputy Briscoe and Deputy Corry with the tears almost coming down their cheeks. They asked what was going to happen to the people as a result of the increased postal charges. Now, Deputy Briscoe gets up and says it is a pleasure for the people to pay. The Deputy referred to the by-election in Wicklow. He is welcome to come there. I had the pleasure of being on a joint platform with him before.

Surely, you do not want me on a joint platform with you at a by-election?

On the question of having sufficient materials available, does the Minister expect a reductionin the number of telephones to be installed during the next year or two? I ask that because last year there was a reduction in respect of stores of £53,100; on uniforms, of £126,300 and on engineering materials of £246,750. This year the Minister is reducing the amount in respect of engineering materials by £251,000. These reductions show that there had been stocks of materials in the Department. The Minister referred to the plan in connection with the telephone development that was made in 1946. I do not want to refer to my predecessor, but, as regards that, I would ask the Minister to look at the record of a conference that was held in Leitrim House on the 22nd May, 1948. I called a conference of engineers, inspectors and labourers to ascertain the reason why the Department was unable to install telephones throughout the country. I took care to have a shorthand writer there to take a verbatim note of what was said by the inspectors and the workers. I am not putting any blame on my predecessor, but it was found that the whole thing was due to a shortage of tools. The men were unable to secure tools from the stores. As some person very rightly pointed out in the report, he often had to go into Woolworths or purchase the tools from men selling these materials at a fair. That was the position in 1948, that was the reason why the development of the telephone did not go on. Then we have the Minister saying it was the plan organised in 1946 he was going to continue. If the plan was there, it was not submitted to me.

I met those engineers and the unfortunate position was that the then Government would not allow the Department to pay the same salary to engineers as Bord na Móna or the E.S.B. As a result, young men would not naturally go into the Post Office but into the E.S.B. or Bord na Móna, where the salary for engineers was higher, with greater prospects. It was some time before we could get the Department of Finance to agree to pay the same salary. When that was done, we got the co-operation of those people who, even at great inconvenience, acted loyally and took a pleasure inthe work of trying to install telephones through the country. I wonder if the Minister has visualised the position, when he is reducing by £251,000 this year the outlay on materials, that there is not going to be such a demand for telephones.

I would like to ask if the Minister has changed the position where an applicant submits a medical certificate as proof of need of a telephone. I have sent on two cases to the Department. One, in the Bray area, was certified by a Dublin specialist, urging the necessity for a telephone as there was only a housekeeper in the house. That man was refused. The other case was in Wicklow, where a gentleman went into a house where there was a telephone formerly. The doctor certified him as being often in urgent need of medical assistance at night time. The answer I received was that his wife was in the house and that if he became ill at night she could go out and walk a mile to get the doctor. That was the position last October, and he has no telephone yet. In my time, where a medical certificate was given the case was treated as one of urgent priority. I am sure, now that it has been brought to the Minister's attention, that he will see about it.

Deputy Cogan, that man who represents or misrepresents Wicklow, questioned my absence during the week. Did he not know that I was finishing the making of arrangements for his political interment in County Wicklow? One of his chief mourners asked me not to complete his burial until we get a car out with Deputy Dr. Humphreys in it.

Personalities should not be brought in.

He challeneged my absence from the House. I am telling him now that the appeal of his former supporters is: "Wait until we have Deputy Dr. Humphreys finally interred, when he goes for Carlow-Kilkenny." I would warn Dr. Humphreys and himself not to be displeased with the arrangements. I will deal with that gentleman.

This has nothing to do with the question.

That is the reason with which I justify myself. I am glad the Minister is continuing the reorganisation of the Post Office service. It is one branch the Department of Finance was always trying to economise on. They were always anxious to reduce the deliveries in the rural areas. I am glad that if the Minister has not been able to stand up to the Department of Finance in other matters, he has stood up to them in carrying on with the same facilities for the rural areas, trying to give them at least a six day delivery as in the towns. Regarding the increased charges, I have my fear that the increased charge for telephones will mean less of a demand than previously. I agree with Deputy Briscoe that if you could have a charge for telephones and remove the perpetual rent there is attached to the meter, there would be a better chance of making the people telephone-minded in Ireland.

Tribute has been paid here to the staff. I can say that in my experience there was no more loyal staff in the whole Civil Service. The Minister can compliment himself on that. Irrespective of what Government is in power, their whole concern, from the highest and most important official to the lowest, was to take a pride in the work. They are the men and women most in touch with the people. The postmen and the staff behind the counters meet the people daily. With the exception of cases where one or two people are always complaining about lack of some extra courtesy, there is a staff we can be proud of in the telephone service. We should not mind the complaints about delay in telephone calls. As the Minister could explain, some people are imaginative, they ring up and if the operator is not able to get the number in a few seconds, she has to put up with a large amount of abuse from citizens she does not know. With the cable being laid to Cork and the arrangements now to improve the whole telephone service, if there was delay in the past it will be eliminated in the future.

I sympathise with the Minister in having to bring in a demand for increased charges. I would have fought the Department of Finance and let the Minister for Finance bring in these matters himself. I am glad that the airmail charges are not being increased, but I believe the Department of Finance would have pressed the Minister to increase air mail charges, only for the international agreement. The new increases will press heavily on the business community. All Departments are adding to the high cost of taxation everywhere, even in local bodies, and I fear we will not have the results the Minister anticipates. We do not want to see losses and I am surprised when I hear some Deputies justifying the Minister in making these increased charges—when I think of the different attitude they adopted a couple of years ago, when charges were increased merely to pay wages long overdue to the men.

We know that the Post Office is to be a commercially run institution and I agree that it should not be a question debated here on political lines. It is giving service to the whole community, it comes into the life of the people and is in touch with the people more than any other Department. The people now expect that not the slightest wrong should happen in the Post Office. I keep in mind when the Post Office was reorganised in my time, when there were no mails by the trains and only two or three-day delivery, when there was disruption of the whole system and we found men who gave unstinted service day and night, to try to cope with the situation during the bus strike and during the Christmas period. These are things which should not be forgotten regarding a staff that has given loyal service.

Some individuals think it is popular to criticise and attack the civil servants. In my time I got some abusive letters for an interview I gave the Press some years ago. I pointed out that I had over 30 years' experience in this House. I have had great admiration, from the inception of the State here, for our Irishmen coming in and taking over the responsibility of theState and building up a first-class Civil Service.

The Minister will also remember the Department of Supplies which was organised during the emergency. No Deputy or member of the public could have the slightest complaint against any of the officials in that Department on grounds of want of courtesy, although I often wondered how they kept their patience, in face of the one hundred and one questions put to them each day by Deputies and members of the public.

I want to repeat the statement I made 12 months ago that I am proud of the Civil Service and I am glad the Minister has disagreed with those people who have said that there is a 20 per cent. redundancy in some Departments. That does not apply to the Post Office, and in many cases pressure is being brought to bear to secure an increase of staff in some of the sections. It is the cheapest publicity to attack the Civil Service on these lines. I have never found it a disadvantage to give honour where honour is due after 30 years' experience here, and I am proud that we had Irishmen capable of taking over the administration of the State and working it so successfully. There may have been a mistake or two, but occasional mistakes are inevitable.

I regret that the Minister has deemed it necessary to impose these increased charges. From my experience, I believe that they will not achieve what he hopes. I do not believe they will bring in the necessary revenue from telephones and apparently the Minister himself is satisfied of that, in view of the reduction in the amount set aside for engineering services in the past couple of years. I feel that there will not be the demand for the installation of telephones that we have experienced in the past couple of years.

I ask the Minister to continue with the reorganisation of the remainder of the rural areas. It will not involve any extra expenditure by the State, but it will give the people in rural areas facilities which are long overdue. I am very pleased that the Minister has stood up to the Finance Department.I know well the pressure that must have come from that Department for a cutting down of rural services. I am disappointed by the proposal to increase charges, especially in view of the present high level of taxation. We have never had, in my memory, such high taxes. I urge the Minister to carry on the work of the development of postal services in the rural areas. Deputy Briscoe spoke of shortage of materials, but he will see from the Estimate that we had so great a quantity of materials in stock that the Minister has reduced the appropriation each year for the past two years, which disposes of the argument that was put forward that we purchased only mouse traps in the course of our stockpiling programme.

I should like the Minister to say whether he has changed the priorities in connection with the installation of telephones for people in urgent need of them. Surely when there is such a demand for these telephones, a demand which is backed up by medical evidence, and when the men are working in the area, there can be no great expense involved in providing the required service. I support Deputy Dockrell's motion that this Vote be referred back on the ground that there is no justification for increasing the cost of telephones.

If there are any people in the State who give and have given service over many years, they are the people behind the counters in the post offices throughout the country. Their job is one which calls for extreme patience and one which is most worrying. Anyone who thinks back 20 or 25 years must realise the tremendous volume of work that has been thrown on the shoulders of these people, and I was glad to hear from the Budget statement of the Minister that these people will not be forgotten. They do not deserve to be, because their job, as I say, is hard and onerous. I was very gratified to learn that that section of the public officials, as well as others, will get, from the monetary viewpoint, what is their just due. There is no section of our peoplewho show greater courtesy to the public and exercise greater patience, often in face of very irritating circumstances, and I should like to pay that tribute to them.

I have been rather disappointed on the few occasions on which I have approached the Minister in connection with the installation of telephones in my constituency. I put up a very strong case within the past three or four months in regard to one application and felt certain that I had convinced the Minister of the absolute necessity for the installation of a telephone and had I known the Estimate was to come on this evening, I should have come here fortified by some of the letters I have received. There is one person in my constituency —I do not propose to mention the town—who is the biggest business person in the town, a person who pays in rates up to £3,000 and £4,000 a year, with a wages bill of £10,000 or £12,000 a year. That person changed residence lately to the outskirts of the town and there are three or four cross-Channel calls every day from that business premises. The owner goes to lunch from 1 o'clock until 2 o'clock or 2.30 and when telephone calls are made from cross-Channel to that place of business, there is no way of getting in touch with the owner. I asked the Minister to accede to my request in relation to that person, who, as I say, is the biggest business person in the town, and I was very disturbed to learn, a fortnight or three weeks after receiving the usual departmental letter, that my request could not be acceded to.

No matter what vocation we follow, it gives every one of us enough to do nowadays to make ends meet and when a good case is put up for the installation of a telephone, the request should not be turned down. The telephone in this business premises was one of the first telephones installed in the town. I am careful not to mention the town because I feel that the person I refer to would not wish me to mention names, but the telephone number is 3, which shows that it must have been installed in these premises 30 or 35 years ago.

There is another person in a verybig way of business in the same town. Every day the people on both sides of the premises get at least ten or 12 calls for that particular business. Within the past week I was asked if I had done anything about having a phone installed. Application was made last June. In this case a phone is absolutely essential. The premises are situated in Youghal which is a tourist resort.

I made representations within the last month or two and got the usual departmental form saying that applications would be dealt with according to order of priority. I never put up a case to any Government Department that is not genuine. The people concerned must think that I have not made representations for them. The Post Office wants money. Here are people in a big way of business who need a telephone and cannot get it. The case I mention is that of a victualler. We are approaching the summer and my phone and the phone in a shop on the other side will be used for receiving calls for this business. The Minister might ask the Department to expedite the matter.

I have the greatest admiration for persons working in the Post Office. If anybody gives service to the State it is they. Where reputable business people ask for a service and are prepared to pay for it they should not have to wait nine or ten months. It is absolutely essential for anyone in business to have a telephone.

I pay this tribute to the Minister that in connection with other matters he certainly treated me very courteously and granted my requests, but I was grievously disappointed when I made representations on behalf of two excellent citizens who require telephone facilities. In one case it is a question of an extension. It is a very serious matter. Calls come from England, and if the person cannot get in touch a cargo of coal or something else may be lost. I may call to the Minister's office within the next day or two in connection with the matter. I want to impress upon him that the request is genuine.

I agree with Deputy Briscoe aboutthe delay in providing extensions. In the case of the person I have in mind there is a telephone pole within 25 yards of the premises. I certainly would be very annoyed if I could not get telephone facilities in the circumstances.

I wish to pay a tribute to those working in the postal service throughout the country. There is nobody who gives greater service. It is a trying job at times and one that demands great patience.

I hope the few points that I have made will be borne in mind by the Minister and that there will not be a delay of ten to 12 months in providing telephone facilities for people for whom they are absolutely essential.

The Minister, his officials, engineers and linesmen deserve the very best thanks of this House for the useful work they have been doing for some years past. Some complaints about delay are purely imaginary. In some cases persons who do not get a number immediately on request fly off the handle. They fail to realise that the official may be paying an old age pension or children's allowances or something else. They should be reasonable.

I should like to pay a special tribute to the linesmen. I watched them for a couple of hours recently in my town and people could take a lesson from them. They certainly worked hard and did their job in a businesslike way. Unquestionably the Post Office is giving one of the best services in the State.

With other Deputies on this side of the House I feel that people who have telephones and people who send letters, telegrams and parcels cannot expect to get the same services for the same amount of money as they were paying many years ago. The Post Office is costing more. Salaries and other expenses have increased and naturally the Post Office could not be run as an economic unit unless charges were increased. On the whole, the proposed increases in charges are not exorbitant. I fail to see why a man who smokes his pipe of tobacco and who lives 20 miles from a telephone and does not give ahoot if he never gets a letter should be asked to pay for the increased cost of the telephone service or the delivery of letters or parcels. A parcel can be sent from Donegal to Carndonagh at possibly one of the lowest rates in Europe. An 11 lb. parcel is brought for about 1/6 all that distance by road and the poor old postman has to hawk it along as best he can. I am speaking from memory. I think that is what it costs. The taxpayer should not be expected to meet increased charges in postal rates. If a person is getting a good service—and I think on the whole we are getting a very good service—he should pay for it and not ask anybody else to pay for it.

Deputy O'Donnell and others on the other side, including the former Minister, were very perturbed about the proposed increased charges. One would imagine that this was the first time they ever heard of increased charges for telephones, parcels, etc. They forget that during the last Government's period of office, in July 1948, there were increases affecting letters of two ounces and over, postcards, printed paper, newspapers, samples, parcels and registration fees amounting to £300,000 per annum. Then there was a second increase introduced in March 1951, affecting air mail and foreign mail which was expected to bring in additional revenue at the rate of £145,000 per annum. The third increase was decided on by the Coalition Government in April, 1951, and that affected inland printed papers, postal orders, money orders, inland and foreign parcel post and also provided for the raising of the then existing surcharge on telephones from 5 to 25 per cent. These increases were estimated to yield £488,000 in the year.

Therefore, during the period of the Coalition Government additional charges similar to those now proposed by the Minister were estimated to yield £933,000, almost £1,000,000 per year, whereas the increased charges proposed now are estimated to yield this year £594,000. In these circumstances we should not have any of the Opposition shedding crocodile tearsabout a matter of this kind because this is nothing new to them. Of necessity, they had to increase the charges made by the Post Office to make it an economic unit as far as possible. I agreed with what the Coalition did at the time, just as I agree with the present increased charges which are in the same category. I think it is the right and proper thing to do. The Opposition, however, should not be shedding crocodile tears and raising their eyes to heaven and pretending that this is the first time anything of this kind happened in the history of Dáil Éireann.

I want to bring one special matter to the notice of the Minister concerning a man in a certain town in my constituency who unfortunately met with an accident. He has a large family and was in receipt of 50/- per week workmen's compensation. Then the learned judge in his wisdom decided that he was fit for light work and the poor man attempted to do that light work. He continued for some months doing the light work, but unfortunately the work he was engaged in was beyond his capacity.

Does the Deputy agree that 50/- is a reasonable amount of compensation?

The Minister has no responsibility in respect of assessing compensation.

That is what the judge and the legal luminaries decided.

The Minister has no responsibility in regard to the assessing of compensation.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is the greatest compensation he could get.

We are discussing the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. O'Higgins

We raised the amount to 50/-.

You increased the Post Office charges by £933,000. I think the Minister should take steps to deal with a case of that kind. The man wasunable to do the light work provided for him. Climbing up a pole can scarcely be described as light work. He had a decent salary as an official of the Post Office and it is very difficult for him to exist on 50/- per week. Great hardship has been caused to him and I ask the Minister to look into the case.

While I agree with the present system of priority in regard to the installation of telephones, I think that when the engineers of the Department go into a town they should finish the work in that town. It causes great uneasiness in the minds of some people if neighbours who applied for a telephone a week or a month or two months before them have telephones installed. There is another class of people to whom priority should be given. If a man has a telephone in his private house and he gets a business house, I think he has a prior claim for the telephone service to be connected with his business house. It would mean increased revenue to the Post Office and Deputies would not have to write so many letters about these things. I sincerely hope that the Minister will restore on the radio the Question Time which we had some years ago on Sunday nights.

That matter can be raised on another Estimate. We are not discussing broadcasting now.

I intend to vote against these proposed increases in telephone and postal charges. At a time when the telephone was becoming very popular it was a mistake for the Minister to take this decision to increase the charges. When the cost of living is so high and this country is going through many other difficulties these increased charges are very ill-timed.

Judging by the rapidity with which people are having telephones installed throughout the country there is bound to be a substantial increase in the number of subscribers in the near future. That increase should help to a great extent to reduce the cost and to bring about greater efficiency in the service. I think it would be better todeal with the situation through the medium of increased subscribers rather than through the medium of increased charges.

We have been sadly neglected in the West of Ireland from the point of view of telephone communication. We suffer amazing delays in trunk calls, particularly between the hours of ten in the morning and six in the evening. I have had personal experience of that. I had a telephone installed in 1939 and I have not seen much improvement in the years between.

We, in Mayo, have not benefited to such an extent as would induce me to vote for these increases. I heard Deputies say this evening that it is now possible to get through to the cities and towns in a matter of a few seconds. That is not our experience in Mayo. I press on the Minister the desirability of giving the remote areas some concession in regard to the laying down of cables.

Our telephone kiosks are very poor in type. There is absolutely no ventilation in them. I can see no reason for making them on such a small scale in view of the fact that there is always plenty of space surrounding them. There should be no difficulty in constructing a bigger and a better kiosk, particularly from the point of view of ventilation. There is one kiosk down at the North Wall that I have had occasion to use. I have often had to leave that kiosk and ask for permission to use a telephone elsewhere because it was quite impossible to hear a word spoken owing to the horse-drawn traffic, the heavy lorries, and the cranes constantly at work there. That is not a desirable type of service and steps should be taken to remedy matters of that kind.

Some areas in the West of Ireland have been given a 24-hours' service and there is an understandable reluctance on the part of some of the staffs to take calls or put calls through late at night or early in the morning. I can sympathise with them because I understand that these people have received no increased remuneration for the extra hours of duty imposed on them. I do not think that sort of situation should arise in any State Department.

I understand that the system is that the local sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress gets a certain sum of money every year for the running of a particular post office. Naturally whoever is responsible, be it a postmaster or a postmistress, is anxious to make what he can out of it for himself. They look for workers who will be prepared to work for them for 10/-, 15/- or £1 per week. The amazing thing is that many young girls are anxious to go into the Post Office service even though the pay is so poor. Evidently the work is attractive. I think the position should be examined. Many of these young girls are expected to contribute something towards the home and it is quite impossible to fulfil that expectation on a meagre wage of 15/- or £1 per week.

Sub-post offices have been connected with the telephone in recent times and I have been told that the increased income they derive as a result of installing a telephone is £3 per year. Three pounds per year represents a little over 1/- per week. I think that is a very mean way of dealing with the matter. It shows a poor appreciation of the work done and the service rendered.

I impress on the Minister the necessity for giving the people who are required to do extra telephone duty adequate remuneration for that work. I appeal to the Minister to install a telephone as soon as possible in Boherdubh, Ballina, County Mayo. It is in a very remote area. The people are far removed from hospitals and towns. I think it is an area which should receive first consideration.

In conclusion I again appeal to the Minister to investigate the remuneration of our Post Office workers throughout the length and breadth of our country. Unfortunately, many of them are working for a very meagre sum. A Government which treats its staffs in such a manner sets a very bad headline for other employers.

I do not wish to delay the House and for that reason I shall be very brief in my remarks. I represent a rural constituency. Undoubtedly, much progress has been made in the Post Office service and continuing advantages accrue to our people but thereare some points which I should like to put before the Minister for his urgent and sympathetic consideration. The whole of the Post Office service seems to me to be characterised by a reasonably high standard of efficiency coupled with co-operation. Time and time again we have heard speeches from the Government appealing to our farmers to increase production. The farming community are the most essential section of our people. On them hinges the economic stability of the country. It would seem, however, that in the apportionment of some services by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs the farming community are discriminated against. For instance, I wrote to the Minister six or eight months ago and appealed to him on behalf of some progressive farmers, a garage proprietor and an undertaker who required certain services from the Department but, beyond receiving the usual stereotyped letter acknowledging receipt of my letter, nothing has been done by the Department in regard to the matter. I am sure that the Minister will agree that that is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs.

I now want to talk about the postal services in the rural areas in my constituency. There has not been much evidence of progress in that respect. In some places, the farmers get their letters twice a week and in other places they receive letters three times a week. Long before I became a member of this House I appealed to the various Ministers to endeavour to provide a daily postal service in these rural areas. I know one gentleman who deals extensively in hunters and gives much employment in that regard. He lives in a rural area. He told me that because of the infrequent postal delivery service he has to detail a man to go to the nearest post office on those days on which there is no postal delivery in his area for the purpose of collecting the mail. He informed me that there is no postal delivery service to his area on Wednesdays or Fridays. He pointed out that the ironical fact is that the postman on Wednesdays and Fridays, passes along the same road and nearby the some house in order to deliver post three or four miles further on. Surely it should bepossible to come to some arrangement in that regard? I appeal to the Minister to consider this matter and to see if it is not possible to co-ordinate postal deliveries so that there will be a more satisfactory postal delivery service at the same cost.

Deputy O'Hara mentioned Post Office workers and the low salaries which they receive. It is a tragedy that that should be so. The salaries of girls employed in some post offices are so low that I should not like the people in the Gallery to hear me mention them. These girls provide a very efficient service and co-operate in every way they can to help the public. In justice, the Government should examine their case with a view to increasing their salaries.

I said at the outset that I would be brief in my remarks, but I hope that the Minister will read my speech in the Official Report. I shall be only too glad to give him whatever particulars he may require, and I hope that he will deal sympathetically and without delay with the points which I have raised.

In the first place, I suggest that when a Minister is giving priority or preferences as regards the installation of telephones in post offices he will consider the distances which people are from the nearest telephone.

Some time ago I made representations to the Minister in regard to a telephone service for Gortroe, Youghal. Actually, Gortroe is exactly five miles from Youghal and when the people there want to send for a doctor or a clergyman, or to make an urgent telephone call they have got to travel all the way to the town of Youghal—and sometimes they have to travel that distance by a very difficult method. A telephone service is absolutely essential for the people of that area— particularly when they have been paying for such a long time for the other fellow's phone. Similarly as regards Knockraha, which is three and a half miles from the nearest town. As I said, when the Minister is considering giving preferences or priority, he should take those matters into consideration.

I did not understand the approach ofDeputy O'Hara or other Deputies in connection with the increased charges. My only complaint about the increased charges is that the Minister does not provide in his proposals for increased charges to cover the deficit. The Minister has told us that the deficit the year before last was £875,000 and the reason it is not £875,000 this year is because certain stocks that were in were taken and used. Only for that there would be another £875,000 this year.

The people in this country who have no phones, the unfortunate agricultural labourers who never use the phone and the unfortunate agricultural community as a whole who use the phone only very seldom, are sick of paying for facilities for professional gentlemen in this country. It is just as well that we make that understood straight off the reel. It is those people who want special services who should pay for them. If the people I mentioned in the agricultural community want to use a phone for a sick call at night to a doctor or a clergyman, they have to travel three, four and five miles. In addition, they have to pay, through their pint and their cigarettes, the £875,00 deficit for the professional gentlemen.

You have it all wrong.

It is about time they did pay something. In addition to the £700,000 deficit this year, according to the Budget statement the Minister will also have to meet an increase in salaries in the Post Office of £440,000. I admit that a large number of the workers there are very badly paid. I think it is the worst paid service we have. If there was a little more cropping on top and a little more given to the under-dog we would come out better.

The Minister has no responsibility in that connection.

On his present showing. the Minister will have to meet, not the £700,000 deficit this year but £1,100,000, that is, the amount for the increased salaries plus the £700,000 deficit. In regard to the ordinary people of thiscountry who have no phones and who have no need to be sending telegrams every day about racing news and other things, they have enough to pay for without paying for facilities for certain professions here. The principle under which we should work in future is that those services and facilities should be made to pay for themselves. If we have people wanting special facilities it is about time they were made pay for them.

I do not know what Deputy O'Hara means when he complains of the rise in the cost of living for the general public. If this money is not found in the manner in which the Minister proposes to find it, where will it come from? You can only do for one year what those gentlemen over there did— increase salaries to the extent of £3,500,000 and make no provision in your Budget for it. They will not do that the second year. Those gentlemen did it and left the debt to us to pay. It will make the Minister and the officials that are responsible in his Department keep a tighter rein on things and it will render the public who get those facilities a little more critical of the services they get, if they have to pay the full amount for them.

Notice taken that20Deputies were not present; House counted, and20Deputies being present,

My attitude in this regard has been put forward on a previous Estimate by the Minister for Local Government in regard to road taxation, that the user should pay. In this particular instance it is high time the user paid, especially when the users are people who in many cases are better able to afford to pay the little extra that is required than some other people, the ordinary working classes in this country, who have been susidising them to the extent of £875,000 last year. I do not know what some Deputies over there want. We had them howling because we were not implementing the award of the Arbitration Board in regard to civil servants. The implementation of that award for the next 12 months is going to mean practically £500,000 on this Estimate alone.

That does not arise on this Estimate.

It arises, I submit, in this way. If the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs had known that this arbitration award was to be implemented, we might have a different Estimate here and we might have a "tip-off" in order to find the £430,000 extra that we require. He will have to come in here at some time in the near future with a Supplementary Estimate—

That is a supposition.

I suggest he should come in here with a new set of charges.

That supposition does not arise.

It will arise in the course of the year if the money has to be paid. As I said, you can only get away once with increasing salaries all round and providing no money for them. That is the kind of business in which the gentlemen over there engaged. However, I do not wish to hold up the House on these matters. I should like to make it clear, so far as I and the people for whom I speak are concerned anyway, that these people consider that they have been long enough paying in ordinary taxation for facilities for others. They stand behind the Minister in seeing that the users of these services will be made pay in future.

This debate has gone on for a long time, so I shall be very brief. We are faced with increased charges for postage on letters. Increases in the cost of telephones and telegrams have also been foreshadowed by the Minister and will be imposed by future legislation. We on this side of the House object to these increased charges. I do not think it is right to say that we are unreasonable in objecting to them because the burden of our objection is the fact that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is supposed to be run on commercial lines. Deputy Briscoe said that the Department wassupposed to be run on commercial lines and he then proceeded to make the case that, of course, the Department had to pay its way. While it is true to say that the Department should be run on commercial lines—and at this point I should like to say that we consider that it is a well-run Department and that the officials carry out their duties very efficiently—we have to consider the circumstances in which this great Department works. This is a small country with a very thinly scattered population, which cannot be described as a commercial population. Our people are, in the main, members of an agricultural community. A profitable Department of Posts and Telegraphs cannot be run very easily with a thinly scattered agricultural community.

Deputy Corry tried to establish that the rural community were paying for services for the professional people. As a matter of fact, it is the commercial community that are subsidising services run by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for the rural community. So far from the agricultural community paying for everything, it is the city commercial communities, at least in this particular respect, that are paying for the uneconomic services and expensive handling in rural areas.

I am afraid the Deputy will have to go to school again.

What we on this side of the House would like to put before the Minister and the country generally is that with a view to building up a large number of subscribers and users of the facilities provided by the Department, it is in the commercial interests—when I say that I mean the interests of running the Department on commercial lines—to keep costs as low as possible. The number of users of postal, telephonic and telegraphic facilities has increased enormously in the last few years. The more people added to the list of telephone subscribers the greater will be the efficiency of the Department and of the services provided by it. I would, therefore, urge upon the Minister that the overriding consideration of his Department should be to keep costs as low aspossible in order to induce as many people as possible to use the facilities provided.

An increase in postal charges is one that directly hits the commercial community. It is very difficult to work out what it will mean to an individual business but it will put up overhead costs in business to a considerable extent and consequently will add to the cost of living. I think it is a great pity that this increase should have been introduced. To my mind it would have been better to have raised the necessary money by way of over-all taxation.

Various people have made complaints in connection with trunk calls. I think the situation has improved, but I had a complaint some time ago that a trunk call from Dublin to Ardee took three hours. The call was put through at 11.45 a.m. and the connection was made at 2.45 p.m. I do not want the Minister to go into that particular case. Every Deputy from time to time receives complaints of this sort. Certainly they do not tend to make the telephone service more popular with people. I would agree with Deputy O'Gorman who spoke about the difficulties with which postal officials have to contend. Anyone who deals with them knows that they can be difficult at times but, nevertheless, it is notorious that the public sometimes meet with discourtesy in post offices. I think that is due to the trying nature of the work which postal officials carry out and which is, in the main, carried out very well, but a big responsibility rests upon the officials to keep before their working people generally the necessity for being polite to the public.

I was requested to raise a certain question with the Minister. Certain councillors have found it difficult to get their telephones put in. I was asked to know whether the Minister would consider a priority list for councillors. There is another point I should like to bring to the Minister's notice. Parcels which go through the post and come in from outside are opened for customs and excise purposes. In this connection great emphasis should be laid on the necessity of having those parcels carefully and properly tied up again. Most people have had the experienceof receiving parcels which originally were very carefully packed. They were opened coming through the post for customs reasons and when the people received the parcels the articles inside were damaged because the packing was not put back in the same way.

The Minister mentioned the commercial loss on the sale of stamps. Perhaps, he might explain the phrase "commercial loss." I am not very clear as to what exactly he meant. There is a further point I should like to mention to the Minister. The Post Office carries a great deal of work in connection with old age pensions and the Department of Social Welfare generally. How far is the Department of Posts and Telegraphs reimbursed for the work it does in that way? Is there any payment made by the Department of Social Welfare?

Is the Minister satisfied that his Department is adequately paid?

Over £800,000 is paid for the services.

£800,000 for the carrying out of the services? If the Minister is satisfied that this is an adequate payment for the service, that is all right but it would be rather unfortunate if the Department had to carry some of the costs of the Department of Social Welfare. In conclusion, I should like to urge upon the Minister the very great importance of regarding the Department and the services which it gives generally as a hand-maiden of the commercial community and, indeed, of the whole community. I am not satisfied that under certain conditions the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should, in the national interest, be required to be entirely self-sufficient. I think that under the circumstances in which we find ourselves, with a large rural and scattered population, it would be wiser, in the better interests of extending the services, to subsidise them by means of general taxation.

That, of course, could be a dangerousweapon under certain circumstances but we are in a different position from many other countries in Europe and I think that we need a different method of paying for our post office services. That really is the reason why the opposition object so strenuously to these increases. We feel that the general services which this Department gives to the people will be placed outside the reach of many of the people who will be discouraged from being able to make the fullest use of the services. I would like to see telephones in every farmhouse. I would like to see the very greatest use being made of our postal services but if we keep the charges high, then our people will not, in the main, be able to avail of the services. That is why I am afraid we will have to vote against this particular Estimate.

I only want to intervene in order to pay tribute to the officials of the Department and to compliment the Minister on the rapid improvement in the telephone and postal sections of his Department. In Cork we have an up-to-date post office and a very up-to-date automatic exchange. I do not agree with some of the people on the opposite side who say that increases should be met by general taxation. I think that every herring should hang by its own tail and that the people who use the Post Office telephones should pay the cost thereof themselves. I agree with Deputy Corry that the ordinary worker, who does not use the phone and seldom uses a stamp, should not be expected to contribute towards the cost of telephones for others.

I should like to pay a tribute to the courtesy of all the officials connected with the post office in Cork that I know of, both engineering and telephone officials. I am very glad that the Minister for Finance saw fit to implement the Civil Service arbitration award in full. In my opinion nobody needed it more than the Post Office men. Even with this increase, I say that the majority of the people in that Department are poorly paid. There are a lot of men in the Post Office Department who are kept on a temporary basis for the most of their lives.They should be made permanent at least after nine or ten years' service. They should not be kept on a temporary basis all the time.

I would ask the Minister to look into the matter of providing more collection boxes in Cork if possible in the builtup areas and at other places by which postmen and people pass. I am sure that the provision of additional collection boxes would not involve much expense. If there were more collection boxes in the different areas it would save people a lot of trouble and walking. There is nothing more I have to say on the Estimate except that I am very pleased with the service that we are getting in Cork at present.

I do not know how any Deputy could congratulate the Minister on this Estimate. Following the general policy of the Fianna Fáil Government, the Estimate proposes to increase taxes all the time. After the last Budget, which was a terrible burden on all the people, we had the Minister for Local Government coming along later and piling on more taxation on lorries. Within a few months, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs increased the wireless licence by 5/-, thereby bringing in more revenue to the State. Now he proposes to increase letter postage and telegraph and telephone charges. A number of Deputies have pointed out that the telephone had been coming into general use throughout the country, especially in recent years. The extra charge now proposed by the Minister is not going to encourage people to install it. I am sure there are many people who, in the normal way, would have installed a telephone, but now due to this increase will not do so.

I remember, some few years ago, when the Minister's predecessor on his Estimate suggested that all letters addressed to Radio Eireann and to the different Departments of State by people throughout the country should carry a stamp. I forget whether the stamp at that time cost 2d. or 2½d. It was suggested that all Deputies sending letters to State Departments should stamp them, and in that way help the revenue. The Fianna Fáil Deputies at that time opposed theMinister's suggestion. In fact, they brought about the defeat of the Minister's Estimate on that very question. I am quite certain, however, that the Fianna Fáil Deputies who acted in that way at that time will go into the Lobby to-night and vote for all the increased charges which are being proposed by the present Minister. It was a different matter with them when they were being asked to pay part of the charge themselves. They were in opposition then and voted to a man against the proposed charges. As I have said, they brought about the defeat of the Minister's Estimate at that time, with the result that the Dáil had to meet on the following morning to consider the position. The proposals at that time did not involve a charge on all the people, but only on those writing letters to different Departments of State.

The charges which we are considering to-night will apply to all the people, yet I am certain that all the Fianna Fáil yes men will march into the Lobby and vote for them.

I understand that Kilkenny Post Office is one of the offices on the list for reconstruction. I would like to tell the Minister that he would want to buck up with its reconstruction. It is in a deplorable state. It is not half big enough for a city the size of Kilkenny, and for the amount of work that has to be done in it. As we all know, Post Office work has been greatly increased. The officials now have to deal with children's allowances, old-age pensions, widows' pensions and a number of other services. The position is that the office is so crowded on some days that it is impossible for people to get into it to do their business. It is a disgrace that its reconstruction was not undertaken long ago.

We talk about civil servants. I suggest that it is hard for people who have to work behind a post office counter in the conditions I have described to be civil. They have not even breathing space there. Deputy Corry mentioned some time ago about the drones in the Civil Service. I can assure him that there are not many drones behind the post office countersin Kilkenny. They are simply overburdened with work and have not enough accommodation in which to do it. I suggest, too, that due to the failure to have the work of reconstruction carried out earlier, the revenue of the post office has suffered in consequence. I would ask the Minister to have the work carried out at the earliest possible date.

At the outset of my reply, I think I should mention the fact that the expected revenue from the increased charges in the course of the current financial year will be approximately £594,000. A number of the charges are not being levied until later in the year. I think that sum, in the computation of a Budget of some £100,000,000, disposes of the idea, one way or another, that the charges proposed are crushing or burdensome, or that they could possibly affect any argument in regard to the Budget if they were to be described as taxes.

The first point I wish to make is that I object in the strongest possible way to the suggestion that the charges paid for the postal services should be described as taxes. The Department is supposed to be run, as far as possible, on a commercial basis. The charges are not compulsory except to those who wish to avail of them. They are not compulsory in the way that a tax on cigarettes or alcohol is, on something that is used almost universally by everyone. The postal services, as I have said, should be run on a commercial basis.

Secondly, before going on to make a general comment on the speeches which have been made, I should mention that increased charges were levied during the 1948-51 period on no less than four occasions. The total extra revenue derived from these three increases amounted to nearly £1,000,000 per year—in actual fact to £935,000. In July, 1948, the letter rate for letters above two ounces, the printed paper rate for printed papers, newspapers, samples and parcel rates were increased. There were also increased charges for other miscellaneous items. The total amount of income brought inwas estimated to be £300,000. In August, 1949, minor charges in the foreign postal rates were imposed. I need hardly mention these because the amount of revenue derived was almost negligible. In March, 1941, the rate for foreign air mails was increased, the estimated revenue being £145,000.

In April, 1951, the former Government wrote a letter to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs sanctioning increased charges in respect of parcel post, printed paper, money orders and postal order poundages, which were estimated to bring in £213,000, and increases in telephone charges which were estimated to bring in £275,000. Those charges were implemented some time, I think, in July, 1951, by myself. They were confirmed by the present Government, but sanction for them lay on the table of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in April, 1951.

Therefore, the total increased charges by the last Government amounted to £1,000,000 a year. I think myself that all of it was necessary and was done with the object of trying to prevent a deficit arising at a time when the costs of materials, wages and salaries were rising. It was done with the same object as in the present case. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs had at that time—I wish to be quite frank and to accord him the compliment— the same general viewpoint, that the postal services should pay for themselves. When the costs rose, there naturally had to be increases in the charges levied on the users of those services, in the same way as in the services of other public utilities and for other goods generally.

I am very glad to say that, taken as a whole, the comment on the character of the services has been highly favourable. Deputies of all Parties have pointed to an improvement in the services, particularly in the telephone service, and there have been very few complaints. The comment on the increased charges has been largely unrealistic. It is quite fantastic that many Deputies in the Opposition came in here and condemned increases in charges and then proceeded to advocate higher salaries for the staffs and more elaborate services. A great manyof their recommendations would have involved still further expense and still further increases in charges.

The Post Office is manned by officers of the Civil Service who, from long experience, have the general attitude of businessmen in the conduct of Post Office operations. They have a general understanding of what charges can be borne by the community. In the past, their predictions in regard to anticipated increased revenues have been reasonably good. I am prepared to take the advice of these very able men, and I have made up my mind to subscribe to the general tradition that the Post Office should, as far as possible, come at least near to paying for itself. In some years, it has actually earned a surplus. I am prepared to take the officers' advice as to the method to be adopted in securing at least a balance.

Since 1922 there have been 14 years of surplus in regard to the three services. There have been 18 years in which there were deficits, but in the case of eight of the 18 years the deficits were under £200,000. If you subtract the first seven years of our native administration and assume that deficits in those years were due to taking over from the British Government, to the impact of the civil war and its after effect, one can say that, in general, the tradition has been that the Post Office should come near to paying for itself, and that it might earn a modest surplus in some years in order to make some compensation for losses in previous years.

Until these new charges were imposed, the Post Office had no rival I know of in this coutnry for the very moderate character of the charges for its services. Compared with 1939, the general postal rate had in the year 1952 increased by only a very small per cent. ; telephone charges were only 25 per cent. up; and a great many of the miscellaneous charges for other postal services were from 25 to 50 per cent. up. I do not know of any other public utility which has had the same record. I do not believe that the new charges will be crippling and, when they have been imposed, the increase in comparison with 1939 will be of thegeneral order of only 50 per cent. There are some exceptions to that. Certain charges, such as those for trunk calls, are not going up even the 50 per cent. over 1939. Some other charges may be slightly in excess of 50 per cent. over 1939. I know very few public utilities in this or any country, I know very few services of any kind, I know practically no goods, whose cost to-day is only 50 per cent. above 1939. It is a tribute to the Department and to the officers who conduct the services that even after these increases have been made there will still be great moderation in the charges levied.

I am very interested to know that, in all the comment there has been in the course of this debate, not one single Deputy has suggested that he has ever observed any notable over-staffing in my Department. I have heard many Deputies in the Opposition and on our own side speak on that point and I am particularly glad to have the testimony of Deputies of the Opposition, who were complaining of increased charges, to testify to the difficulties under which the staff worked and to hear them described as extraordinarily zealous and courteous officials. There has been no criticism that people were idle, pushing pens and doing nothing, or that there were people in the Department doing crossword puzzles.

Deputy Corry said that 20 per cent. of them were sucking their thumbs. Is not that so?

To my mind, there is a very good record of achievement on the part of the officers of the Department and of all concerned and I should like to join in the tribute to the staffs, because I think that on the whole they do the work very well.

Does the Minister not overlook the statement by his colleague, Deputy Corry, that 20 per cent. were drones, sucking their thumbs?

There have been some comments on our finances which I consider to be more than dishonest on the part of certain Deputies who are expected to speak with some degree of probity on our financial position. Deputy Declan Costello, whom I haveheard make some extremely intelligent speeches, apparently without examining the facts made it quite clear that he wished to give the impression to the country that we had made some change in the method of running services, the method of calculating the finances, which had some relation to changes in budgetary policy. He tried to drag the argument about raising capital, the different methods adopted by the two Governments in computing capital commitments, into the running of the postal services. There has been absolutely no change whatever in regard to the character of the items that are treated as capital charges and those which are treated as current charges in my Department, nor has there been any change made, I might add, for a considerable number of years. Deputy Everett himself when he was Minister made no change. I equally have made no change at all. At any rate, the deficit increased to over £800,000 before any of these budgetary discussions commenced and before the long dispute on the balance of payments policy began in the Dáil. The deficit was £840,000 in the financial year 1951-52; it was £317,000 in 1950-51; and in both those years there had been no major changes in budgetary policy nor had any of the arguments started in regard to capital payments.

As I have already said, we have been able to report greater output per man in the installation of telephones, kiosks and exchanges since 1950. There has been a tremendous growth in the telephone service, and I have noted that Deputies themselves have commented upon that in no unfavourable fashion. I do not know whether I need indicate again how the deficit arose, but as there has been some doubt cast upon the cause I should mention that, long before there were any budgetary changes, mail conveyance costs had increased and depreciation, interest and maintenance charges for the telephone and telegraph services had increased, consequent upon the increased number of trunk circuits and general development. Wages had increased under the Civil Service award 1951 by £592,000.All these things together brought about the deficit, which has been continuous since the financial year 1951-52. I have examined every section of the Department for possible waste and there is no need for me to reiterate what I have said already, that the very great majority of the staff of the Department do the kind of work whose volume can be tested and, therefore, every effort is made to keep costs as low as possible. At present, on account of the growth in the "no delay" service in the Dublin telephone exchange, we have adapted our previous method of recruiting. In the Dublin telephone exchange, when there is a very heavy peak load of traffic, people are brought in to do switch work who otherwise would be doing clerical work, in order to ensure economy. I mention that as one example of the many efforts made to keep down costs.

So far as telephone services are concerned, there is no service on earth that I know of that can be kept at a general rate of charge of only 25 per cent. above the 1939 figure, when the materials used for the construction of the service are three times the 1939 figure and when the wages and salaries of the officers and men who carry out the installations and maintenance are 90 to 110 per cent. above 1939. It simply cannot be done, and in that connection I should like to refer to the report of the American Telephone and Telegraph Company, a company which is a by-word of efficiency, which is always being held up to Government telephone administrations as a model to copy and where exactly the same situation has arisen as here.

The president, reporting in connection with the 1952 accounts, made it perfectly clear that technical and operating improvements in the American telephone service alone could not offset the effects of inflation and he said that he would have to apply continuously for increases in telephone charges to the commissions of the various States who have some say in the charges to be levied by his company over the United States ofAmerica. There were increases of about 25 per cent. in telephone charges in America since 1946. and, in spite of that, in 1952, although there has been an enormous increase in the number of telephones installed, in the speed of telephone calls and the general efficiency of the system, the president of the company made it perfectly clear that new facilities would inevitably cost more, no matter what the volume of calls anticipated. In fact, a great deal of this report, which I do not propose to read, could almost be written, with a few changes, as a general report, without figures stated, of our own telephone service.

I might add that the American Telephone and Telegraph Company earned on its total capital a profit of some 5.41 per cent. in 1952, a profit so low that, being a private commercial company, the president was complaining that he would like to see an increase. One can make a comparison with that of our own telephone service, in which the profit in 1950-51, the last year in which we made a surplus on the telephone service of any note, was 4.36 per cent. on the gross capital of the whole of the telephone service. There is a certain amount of comparison, even apart from that, in the fact that the number of telephones has increased in roughly the same proportion here and in America and that the number of conversations has increased in the same proportion.

I shall have to ask the House to take my word for it as a person of some business experience and to bear with me in regard to this question of telephone charges. I am very well aware that if it had been possible to maintain the charges at their present figure, I would have done that from the purely commercial standpoint, if I had thought that revenues would increase sufficiently to enable the telephone service to earn sufficient surplus to pay for the inevitable and universal losses on the telegraph service; but the increase in traffic would have to be so remarkable that I know it would be quite beyond reason that it could take place.

I must have regard to the experience of my officers who have watched thetraffic increase through the years, who experienced the increase in 1936 when charges were reduced but when the surplus equally went down, in spite of the prediction made at that time by some people that the surplus would increase in the ensuing year. I must take their advice in regard to traffic predictions. Their advice is, as I have said, that it is no use hoping that some fanciful suggestion could be adopted, such as that of leaving charges as they are, or even decreasing them, with a view to having a sufficient increase of traffic to earn the kind of surplus we need to pay for the losses in the telegraph service.

Deputy Dillon may have been in rather a skittish mood when he referred to the poor character of trunk service in this country.

I was not.

If he has a complaint to make, I shall be glad if he will write to me in regard to any specific complaint he has concerning the trunk service, because I had 511 major exchanges contacted on April 30th and instructed to report what the character of the traffic had been for the whole of the day. In connection with 511 major exchanges on April 30th, for the whole of that day, including the peak period, there were only 42 exchanges where delays of over half an hour were experienced. I regard that as very remarkable progress. It was that kind of progress that I wanted to see achieved before I made any recommendation for increases in charges. It was progress of that kind that I wanted to see before asking the telephone subscribers to pay more for their service. There will be some subscribers who, even after the increased charges are levied from July next and who, in connection with rentals, will pay more in the October period, will still not obtain a first-class service.

Hear, hear!

A tremendous amount of work is going to be done this year in improving trunk circuits and I can promise that there will be a vast improvement in many areas.

I thought there was no room for improvement.

Perhaps some Deputies would like to hear some of the increases which have taken place in the costs of providing a telephone service. The ordinary telephone instrument has gone up by 370 per cent. since 1939; copper wire is up by 650 per cent.; bronze wire by 508 per cent.; lead-covered cable by 1,163 per cent.; switch-boards of various types by 204 to 210 per cent; 20-ft. light telephone poles by 280 per cent.; coin-collecting boxes by 254 per cent.; and automatic exchange equipment in general by about 258 per cent. These figures will indicate the impossibility of maintaining the service at 25 per cent. above 1939 level. No one can do it. No genius, no Rockefeller, no financial wizard could maintain charges, bearing in mind that there are multifold new amenities and facilities being provided with materials whose cost has so vastly increased.

I should like to refer now to one criticism I saw in the Irish Independent,to the effect that the subscriber pays a perpetual rent for a telephone which he has paid for many times over. That is a completely false argument. No telephone administration in the world provides a subscribers' telephone service on a sale outright basis. The subscriber is renting not an instrument only, but an exchange line running to an exchange which may be several miles away, equipment at the exchange which may alone cost up to £50 a line and the service required to keep that line in good working order for 24 hours a day. I have already mentioned that the average capital cost of a subscriber's exchange line in Dublin has been estimated as about £130. The interest on that sum alone, apart altogether from depreciation and maintenance costs, does not fall far short of the current rental of a residence line, so that there is absolutely no question whatever of the public being asked to pay many times over for their telephones.

I think the criticism comes somewhat ill from a concern which increased its own service, its own paper, by 100 percent. since 1939. So far as telephone charges in future are concerned, we have tried to establish them at rates which will admit of some stability.

Would the Minister mind answering a question with regard to the matter he has mentioned? If the rental is related to the cost I wonder would the Minister be good enough to tell me what do we pay the trunk fee for? If I have already paid for the maintenance of my line, for what am I paying 2/9 thereafter?

The custom in a number of countries, including our own, where this system of financing is adopted is that the rental pays for the capital charges, depreciation and the maintenance of the line and the operating charges pay for the mechanical operating costs and for the operators who transmit the messages. At the present time there is a terrific deficit on the rental portion in that, very approximately, the annual charges on one Dublin instrument for rental, covering capital charges, depreciation and maintenance, should be £14 and it is or was, rather, until these new charges come into operation in October, £6 per year. That is one of the difficulties we have had, one of the difficulties we have to overcome.

Every local call has to be paid for thereafter.

We do not regard it as a good thing to alter frequently telephone charges. We do not like to treat the subscribers in that way. We regret having to increase charges. Telephone charges, as the House well knows, have not been frequently altered. I think I am right in saying that they were increased by 5 per cent. some time during the war and again by 25 per cent. in July, 1951, an increase that had been sanctioned by the last Government in April, 1951, and now they are being further increased. We tried to fix the charges in such a way that we can look forward to a reasonable period of stability. If the general value of the £ does not materially alter, if materials either go down in price or remain at their present levels, if the traffic shows the same kind ofchange as it has shown in the past years, if wages and salaries paid to the officers of the telephone section of the Department relate to, shall I say, general considerations affecting the profit on the service rather than to inflationary changes, we hope that they will not have to be increased in the foreseeable future. I have had to mention a good many "ifs" because the £, willy nilly, has changed in value so often and if there should be another rearmanent rush and if lead-cover cable, which is already about 1,150 per cent. in price above the 1939 level goes up 2,000 per cent. on the 1939 level it would be very hard for me to say that there would not have to be another increase. If a period of general stability, foreseen by the Minister for Finance and others as being at least a hope, takes place, I hope we shall not have to increase telephone charges again.

That must raise up your hearts.

Speaking in general about the increased charges, to my mind it would be absolutely fatal if we were to adopt Deputy Dockrell's suggestion that overall taxation should cover the deficit in the Post Office. It would simply be an inducement to the uneconomic working of the service. Everyone knows the history, for example, of C.I.E., where, because of difficulties during the war and the fact that no matter what improvements were suggested the deficit continued to increase. The deficit has reached now a point where no one knows how to meet it in its entirety. Every inducement to economy in the service would be bound to disappear if this deficit was allowed to remain or if the habit grew of permitting deficits in the Department. I think the officers of the Department are excellent men. I and they are human like everyone else and if a large deficit became a permanent feature of the service, who could blame them or anyone else if the general atmosphere became, "what does it matter? It will be all swallowed up in the Budget."

It was particularly for that reason that I wished to see the service paying for itself or coming to within a reasonablemargin of paying for itself. The charges were not increased, as I have already said, in 1952, because I wanted to see a marked increase in the "no delay" service in the telephone; I wanted to carry out a few more improvements in regard to establishing daily postal deliveries and, having achieved those objectives, having achieved the objective, for example, of ensuring that only 10 per cent. of all the delivery posts are now not daily, I then felt it was a right and proper thing to make the service pay for itself.

As long as the service pays for itself and as long as everyone knows that the charges are supposed to meet expenses, there will be every inducement to the Minister of the day and to his officers to insist on innovations, to insist on high output, to insist on efficiency, to prevent the gradual seepage of unnecessary staff into the service. But, if there is going to be permitted a continuous deficit, rising and rising as time goes on, there will never be that inducement, and I could not expect men, however brilliant they may be, to keep on checking up on inefficiency, insisting on high efficiency, if they knew that the surplus would be swallowed up in the general vastness of the Budget because a surplus at no time would be a very large item compared with the whole of the Budget, but the deficit could be quite large enough to affect severely the mentality of all those in the service. Nor could I ask the postmen who, I agree, work for very modest wages indeed and who are acclaimed by the whole community as people of courteous disposition, to undertake the services which they do, to be efficient, to do their cycling duty efficiently, to accept the tests imposed on them which ensure that each man does a sufficient number of deliveries in a day, if they knew all the time that there was always this slack that could be taken up in the Budget, that there was always a deficit that could be increased and that somehow or other the taxpayer would always see to it that they were left running along without any check upon their activities.

My own belief is that very few businessmenwould disagree with me in regard to this matter. All I can do is to assure the House that every effort will be made to promote efficiency in the future as in the past. To give some example of that—we have, as I have already indicated, what we call office organisation and methods officers who have been trained in business technique and who check upon the activities of the whole of the staff. The officers of most of the sections have had the opportunity of giving a kind of overall examination at continuous intervals to the working of their particular departments.

In the case of the telephone engineering section we have never been able to secure the services of sufficient electrical engineers. There are not sufficient engineers coming from the universities to provide this country with all the engineers it requires allowing for those who by tradition or for their own personal reasons emigrate and, as a result, the officers who conduct the engineering branch of the service have never had an opportunity of making a very fundamental examination of the methods adopted in installing phones and in conducting the general operation of the telephone service. I am insisting that they have that opportunity, that they have the most expert advice, in order to make sure that the very best work is being done because the actual fact is that the officers of that branch have been working so hard at overcoming the difficulties of the war period when supplies were not available, that they have not had the time and there have not been enough of them to take a long term view of the department. They are now going to do so.

I do not think I need give in great detail a comparison of the charges made for services in my Department with those made by other public utilities. But I notice here that in the case of two well known utilities, one of which makes a loss, and the other of which makes a very small profit, the increased charges are over 100 per cent. since 1939, compared with about 50 per cent. by which the charges are going up in the case of my Department.Another public utility has increased the charges by 55 per cent. in regard to one portion of its services and by 120 per cent. in regard to another charge made upon those who make use of it. I mention these figures because they may be of interest to Deputies who think that the new charges are in any way excessive compared with those levied by other utilities or other companies in this country.

I do not think I need say very much about Deputies who advocated increased pay and increased services of a highly extravagant character and at the same time recommended that the charges should not be increased. I think there is no need for me to deal with that matter in great detail. One Deputy asked whether we have made any alteration in regard to the length of time for the amortisation of capital charges. There has been no noticeable alteration in the last year. Buildings are regarded as having a life of from 30 to 52 years. Telephone apparatus is regarded as having a useful life of 20 years. There is nothing exceptional in that. As I said, there has been no particular change.

Except that you are paying 5 per cent. for money instead of 3½ per cent.

I do not know whether the Deputy wants me to give again full details of the deficits which took place before any of these changes were noticed. There was a deficit of £840,000 before the rate of interest went up. Deputy Costello suggests that the deficit was actually increasing and asked why need we increase the charges. There was a slight decrease between 1951-52 and the estimated deficit in 1953-54, largely because of the postal emergency stocks bought during the years 1950-51, which in actual fact, in so far as the postal section of the Department is concerned, are not put to capital account. The telephone material is put to capital account, but stocks of equipment for the postal service have always been regarded as being on current account. It is because of the fact that postal emergency stocks have ceased to be bought that the deficit has very slightlydecreased since the year 1951-52. There has also been some increase in revenue.

The suggestion has been made that there is some sort of plot between the Department of Finance and ourselves, whereby the charges that we make for Government services in setting out the commercial account, result in a sort of hidden profit to the Department of Finance. All accounting for that is done in the Post Office. The work is treated in rather a complicated way by having a set of units of value and we will receive this year something in the nature of £860,000 for doing Government work. We believe that the estimation is fair. If there should be any error in our method of accountancy, we believe it could not make any noticeable difference to the deficit. In actual fact, we are making a special check this year to ensure that in setting out the accounts of the Department in commercial form we will have charged every Department in the fullest possible way for the services which we render to them.

I do not know whether at this stage it is necessary for me to reply in detail to the many questions raised by Deputies of an unimportant character, questions in relation to the telephone services in various areas. I will take at random a glance through the notes I have made and refer to some observations. Deputies complained of the waiting list for telephones. I mentioned that the number of telephones installed last year was a record—7,234. Deputies may be interested to know that there is a waiting list in other countries, including the very efficient United States. People have to wait for telephones in a great many countries of the world. I am not going to clear off the list of waiting applicants until the trunk circuits have been still further improved, until all call offices in post offices have been installed. It would be very tempting to decide to cut down the trunk circuits provided every year and to say: "Why not take three years to complete all the call office installations" knowing that the figure for waiting telephone subscribers would be wiped out. I am not going to do it. Equally, I found that for a considerable number of years the pressureupon the Department for installing subscriber lines in Dublin City has been so great that a lot of long-term maintenance and renewals are required in respect of cables in the city. It is a tribute to the work of the engineers and the men in the Dublin section of the Department that, although the chief engineer said that he thought we would have to instal 500 fewer telephones in Dublin in a year in order to get that renewal and maintenance work done, for the first quarter of this year, in spite of the fact that gangs have been diverted, the men have worked so hard that we have managed to complete as many subscribers' installations as we were doing previously.

One Deputy asked what the telephone density of this country was. I have not the latest figures for the various countries of the world, but two or three years ago there were about three telephones per 100 people in this country compared with some 27 in Sweden and the United States. We have a long way to go in installing the telephone system.

Deputy Brennan raised the question of deposits by subscribers and the fact that when telephone charges were increased new subscribers were asked to pay a higher deposit. Discretion is exercised in regard to that matter. We are having that side of the accounting section's activities examined and I can assure Deputies that everything will be done to avoid unnecessarily increasing deposits by subscribers.

Deputy Blowick raised the question of telephone services in the Mayo area. There is now a 12-channel carrier system between Dublin and Claremorris which is giving a no-delay service. My officers report to me that there is now a no-delay service between Castlebar, Westport and Claremorris because a three-channel carrier system has been installed or is about to be installed.

There is a difference between has been installed and about to be installed.

I am not quite sure. The improvement is either actual or imminent. I think it is actual in regard to the Castlebar-Westport ser-survice. Deputy Palmer referred to the problem of ensuring what might be described as an emergency service, and suggested the installation of more kiosks. I am afraid the installation of kiosks everywhere would be fatal to the finances of the telephone service. The actual charges for maintaining a kiosk are very considerable. We have to instal them where we believe they will be economic. If local authorities consider that a kiosk is urgently required and if neither the Garda emergency telephone services at night nor the telephone service of sub-postmasters or sub-postmistresses, which is available in the ordinary way, are conveniently at hand, then a kiosk can be erected and the local authority can agree to pay the difference between what is received in the coin-box and the actual annual maintenance and capital charges should there be a deficit. In general, there are very few complaints in regard to what can be called the emergency service requirements of the telephone section of my Department, and I think that is highly satisfactory. I shall always be glad to have any complaints in that regard. Wherever the Guards have ceased to occupy Garda stations at night we have made alternative arrangements. The post offices in that case are ready to make their 'phones available after closing hours for emergency purposes. Where such arrangements cannot be made local authorities are at liberty to have subsidised kiosks where such are considered desirable.

Deputy Esmonde asked that some of the smaller exchanges should have the telephone service open until a late hour at night. As the House may have noticed we have made that concession in order to encourage people who wish to phone after their day's work and have hitherto been deprived of the opportunity of doing so because of the fact that there was an insufficient number of telephones connected with the local exchange. In future, if there are five and up to nine telephones connected to an exchange the service will continue until ten o'clock at night.

Deputy Norton made several references to the general condition of PostOffice buildings. As I intimated in reply to him, the estimated expenditure in the present year under the Department's building programme amounts to £157,000 and that does not take account of minor works of maintenance or minor schemes of alterations which will be carried out. It is my resolve that we should press forward with the programme of reconstruction and new building until the accommodation in all post offices is sufficient for the reasonable requirements of both the public and the staff.

In regard to the new sorting office, the site for which has been purchased in Sally Gardens, the officers of the Department are at the moment engaged in a close study of the requirements of the new building and we will press forward with it as quickly as we can. We shall have to study the methods used in various countries before we officially decide what kind of sorting machinery to employ. There have been enormous advances in the methods used to sort parcels by mechanical means and we want to do the very best we can. I cannot promise that the building will be open very shortly but we will press forward with the formulation of plans as quickly as possible.

I hope they will not tear the envelopes as they are tearing them at the moment.

Deputy Norton referred to the cleaning of mail bags. We are at the moment cleaning mail bags in the most economic way. The question of installing machinery for this purpose will be considered when the new sorting office is available. The return of surplus bags after the expiration of the Christmas pressure period enables us to have bags that are particularly dirty cleaned. I think that should go far to answer Deputy Norton's point.

He referred also to the early attendances of postmen in the rural areas, and he suggested that they were unnecessary. I think Deputy Norton exaggerated the hour at which the average countryman gets up. In any event the postman must start early on his route if he is to finish early. Ifhe starts late the last person to receive mail will surely complain. On the whole, I think, that a 7.30 a.m. commencement of rural delivery is not unreasonable, and I think Deputy Norton spoke too much of the somnolent habits of the rural community. I think he exaggerated the position.

He referred also to the small number of part-time posts in the postal service—Deputy Brennan and Deputy Cunningham also made that point— up-graded during the past year. We have been carrying out rural revision schemes to ensure an earlier delivery and a later collection where possible. At the same time we have endeavoured to provide full-time employment where possible. We find it very difficult to increase the number of full-time posts without adversely affecting existing part-time officers. In motorising the mail service to sub-offices the tendency is that full-time service in these offices ceases to be necessary, and it is only with difficulty in some cases that we have been able to maintain the full content of existing full-time posts in certain areas. I will press on the officials of my Department the desirability of increasing the number of full-time posts and increasing proportionately, wherever it is possible, the number of fully-established postmen. I believe it is absolutely essential we should do that. Nevertheless, we have to have regard to the difficulties in making changes in the mail services and at the same time up-grading part-time posts.

Several Deputies referred to the low rate of remuneration of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. I do not think I need say very much on that matter. Some of them are able to get extra sales through their small retail businesses. Others are not so successful. In regard to 2,005 small post offices the average income until recent increases were granted was £222 per annum. I agree that some have a very low contract arrangement, as low as £50 in some cases, but the average is £222.

Deputy Norton also referred to difficulties in regard to the staff in the registered letter office section inDublin. I am advised the difficulties are exaggerated. Staffing is now fully adequate for requirements and there should be no complaint with regard to that matter in the future.

He also asked that the Saturday staff should be given more facilities for leave on Saturday evening. We do all we can in regard to that matter but we have to bear in mind the fact that the night mails come through on Saturday evening and there are also late evening collections to be dealt with.

One Deputy asked if postmen were permitted to use motor-cycles or auto-cycles. They are permitted to use them subject to certain conditions, which are regarded as reasonable, that have to be fulfilled.

Would the Minister give us the conditions?

If the route is not dangerous for motor-cycle work; the duty must be performed by ordinary cycle if for any reason permission to use a motor-cycle may be withdrawn; the scheduled time of starting and departing from sub-offices, wall boxes and other collection points must be strictly adhered to and deliveries on the route must be made, as far as possible at the same time each day; insurance premiums must be paid regularly and the motor-cycles must be maintained in sound mechanical condition. In actual fact there has not been very much demand so far as I know for that facility.

Does the Department make any allowances to postmen who provide their own auto-cycles or motor-cycles?

No allowance is made.

Yet, they are told they must keep them in good order.

That is entirely reasonable in my view.

The Minister should hear some of the postmen's view on it.

I do not think there are any other matters I need go into at this stage. I have answered mostlythe questions that have been asked. I would like to conclude by thanking those Deputies who paid a sincere tribute to the working of the services. I would like equally to conclude by saying once again that it will be a very bad day for this country when the deficit of my Department can be swallowed up in the vastness of the Budget. It is absolutely essential for the efficiency of the service and for maintaining a keen and watchful attitude on the part of all the staff from the highest to the lowest, that the service should be made to pay for itself. The increases which have been notified are the lowest that can be imposed. They have been imposed with a view to ensuring that at least a major part of the deficit can be wiped out in the coming financial year.

Can the Minister give the House any information about inquiries in regard to trunk call delays from Castlebar and Ballina to Dublin?

A three-channelled carrier is installed to improve the service.

And no delay exists? The Minister said in his concluding sentencesthat a very careful calculation was made to ensure that services rendered by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to other State Departments were fully recouped to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Would the Minister tell us what recoupment his Department receives in respect of the transport of other Departments' mail? Do they stamp their mail or pay the Department for its transfer?

All the costs are recouped. All the charges including the transport of mail are recouped.

Is a tally kept of each letter issued by the Department, or are they paid for en bloc?

They are paid for on an annual account which is furnished.

Is a tally made of the letters issued from each Department?

A check is made of the volume of transactions of that kind and of the amount of mail transported on behalf of other Departments.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put.
The Committee divided: Tá: 60; Níl: 66.

  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas, N.J.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finan, John.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.)
  • O'Leary, Johnny.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.

Níl

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowely, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and B rendán Mac Fheórais; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Question declared defeated.
Vote put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn