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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Mar 1960

Vol. 180 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) Bill, 1960—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is an omnibus Bill of a very special character which I believe generally can best be discussed on Committee Stage, treating the Schedule more or less seriatim as we would the sections of an ordinary Bill, but there are one or two matters on which I should like clarification.

Deputy Dr. Browne referred to the duty on medicinal tablets imposed in Order No. 78. He dwelt on one aspect of this problem relating to the difficulty of doctors prescribing particular drugs, particularly antibiotics of domestic manufacture, where their patients have come to depend on certain branded antibiotics supplied from abroad, and where the patients have come to assume that the names of well-known, internationally-known, drug manufacturers are sufficient guarantee of the standard of the drug. Their confidence is not so well established in the domestic drug where there is no system of testing its efficacy.

I am bound to say that, so far as I am aware, and I have taken occasion to inquire into this matter and with some care, that the antibiotic drugs and preparations of that character—and they are not all antibiotic— manufactured here are of a high quality. The Minister would do the manufacturer of these preparations here a service if some arrangement were made with the Bureau of Standards to test these drugs and give them their certificate. It is perfectly natural that people who have been, in the past, in the habit of taking drugs manufactured by the great nonprofit trusts like Burroughs Wellcome, and so forth, have grown to depend on these people to maintain the standard of preparations on which they put their name. If you are sick, it is the most natural thing in the world that you should attach immense importance to getting drugs the potency-of which you believe to be effectively guaranteed. The Minister would give a corresponding reassurance in respect of the domestic drug, if there were some State-sponsored system of sampling and certifying the domestic product.

I want to raise an entirely different point and one with which I do not expect members of this House who are themselves doctors to have much sympathy, but one which I think is of very considerable importance from the point of view of the ordinary citizen of the State. There are a number of relatively simple drugs, such as aspirin, veganin and other forms of salicylic acids, which people take for the common ills of mankind. Now, both men and women have recourse to these drugs with reasonable frequency. It is probably true that a considerable part of their value is psychological. You will find persons who believe that one brand of aspirin is a sovereign remedy for their constant affliction. You can demonstrate to those people indefinitely that there are four or five proprietary preparations and that the active principle of them all is identical. Nevertheless, one of those five products will cure the particular affliction from which the person is suffering and none of the other four will—and it is because that person believes that the one product will cure him.

People may say to me: "This is no matter of sufficient significance to sway the minds of this Legislature." That is where I do not agree. I attach much more importance to the natural apprehensions and sufferings of the ordinary citizen than I do to the exalted anxieties of the skilled physician who fears that if you get aureomycin to-day, it may not be as effective as acromycin to-morrow. Ninety-nine per cent. of us do not know the difference between them but more than 80 per cent. know the difference between Aspro, aspirin and various brands of aspirin and more than 70 per cent. of us are quite convinced that Bayer's Aspirin will cure our headache where Aspro will not, or vice versa.

If you put one particular brand of aspirin out of our reach, it may be that 50 per cent. of us will get along without it but there is a silent, suffering 50 per cent. who suffer because we have put the particular simple remedy on which they have depended out of their reach by making it either too expensive for them to buy or too expensive for the druggist to stock. A situation can easily arise in which the person suffering from some simple ill goes to the chemist and says: "I am prepared to pay 100 per cent. duty if I can get the tablets I want." The chemist says: "Maybe you would, but there are so few who are prepared to do it that we have given up keeping them."

If it were represented to me that there were some vital national interests at stake then I would be prepared to say: "We must start a careful campaign of education to prevent people from feeling this irrational confidence in one patent preparation in preference to another which is in fact identical in its constituents." But I do not believe that the employment given in making tablets is of the slightest significance. I am told you could get two machines, operated by two men, which would make in about a week all the tablets that the population in this country could consume in 12 months. There is no employment involved at all. Instead of bringing in the brand of tablets, you are bringing in the raw materials and feeding it into a tablet machine and one man can operate a tablet machine which will turn out countless millions of tablets.

It is like the modern method of manufacturing electric light bulbs. I am told two or three machines could produce in a few weeks all the electrict light bulbs used in Great Britain and if you have a sufficiently large market to justify the installation of such a machine there is no labour content in the production of electric bulbs at all. Similarly, on a very much smaller scale with our population, one or two machines can make all the tablets we need.

I suspect that this duty was imposed originally to protect antibiotics and analogous drugs and capsules. I think we have used a wholly inappropriate procedure to achieve a strictly limited end and that we are causing a lot of people unnecessary annoyance and suffering for the want of taking a little care. I put it to the Minister that the time is overdue when this Imposition of Duties (No. 78) (Medicinal Tablets) Order, 1959, should be reconsidered.

I apprehend that the vested interests concerned in this matter which are the physicians, the pharmaceutical chemists and the manufacturing chemists will not bring pressure to bear on the Minister in regard to the particular case I have made. The people for whom I am attempting to speak are not organised. They are not in a position to press their case on the Minister but I have every reason to believe that the case I am making is no less valid for that reason.

I urge the Minister to re-examine this Order and to see if some system could not be devised to achieve two ends—(1) an adequate system of testing the domestic product to create confidence in the mind of the sick public in the domestically-manufactured antibiotic drug and (2) the exclusion from the operation of this tariff all preparations such as aspirin, veganin and these complexes in that category mainly directed to the relief of what is popularly known as nervous pain.

Mr. Ryan

I rise to support what has already so eloquently and effectively been put before the House by Deputy Dillon. I would go a little further than he does in relation to the psychological impression on a person needing medical attention when he can get one particular pill or treatment. I think a medical man will bear me out that the clinical effect of what seem to be perfectly similar tablets can be very considerable. The medical profession has found, particularly in the past few months when certain preparations have not been easily available, that patients have not responded as quickly to the alternative tablets which have been available on the Irish market.

I am completely behind the Minister and behind any Government which asks that a reasonable sacrifice be made by the Irish people to provide employment here in our own land. I can see that if you are manufacturing for a relatively small market of two to three million people you will have higher overheads than if you are manufacturing for a market of some 40 million people.

In relation to our medical needs, the Minister is asking this country to take far too great a risk and he is asking the people to suffer too much hardship. Human agony and human pain cannot be treated lightly. If people cannot recover from their ailments and illnesses, if they cannot get relief from their pain swiftly and effectively, if they cannot get relief from their agony or from sickness more quickly by reason of the treatment which is now available then the Orders made by the Minister in relation to medicinal tablets should be rescinded.

I would far prefer that the Minister would come here and ask us to pay pensions for life to those now engaged in the preparation of some medical preparations in this country than that we should continue to impose on the people unnecessary pain, unnecessary sickness, unnecessary hardship, unnecessary risks.

If we risk even one human life for the purpose of maintaining an artificial industry, then we in this House are guilty of the crime of murder. There is no more precise way of describing the situation that now exists whereby the best quality medicinal tablets are not readily available to the people who need them. I appreciate that statistical evidence, analyses of the various types of tablets and other preparations, may be produced to suggest that there are ample alternative substitute preparations manufactured in this country. The best medical authority—I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce will listen to medical opinion if the Minister for Health will not—will vouch that for some unknown reason, some reason which escapes analysis, some reason which cannot be accurately determined in a laboratory, one preparation will produce an improvement in a patient where another one may either not produce an improvement or leave the patient as he was.

I believe that, when we contract the market, when we contract the supply of medical preparations, we are doing very great harm to our people. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to put in the balance what has not been properly balanced because cognisance has not been taken of the grave risks we are running. He should balance whatever marginal employment we may provide in the nation through the manufacture of certain tablets in this country against the colossal human sufferings which we experience continually. I know it is something which it is difficult to ascertain or to present in a statistical way. I trust the Minister will not take advantage of us because we cannot produce proof of a certain number of deaths of patients in hospital. I think it is reasonable to assume that relief from pain and recovery is not as rapid as it might be if we had a larger number of medicinal preparations on the market. The risk we are running is far too great. As I said, it would be better to provide pensions for life for those who now have employment in the medical industry in the manufacture of medicinal preparations rather than continue the very unfair and dangerous position.

On looking through the list, I find that with two exceptions—Imposition of Duties (No. 66) (Tip-up Chairs) Order and the one referred to by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Ryan—Imposition of Duties (No. 78) (Medicinal Tablets) Order—all the impositions are substantially less than the maximum of 75 per cent. imposed on these articles.

I do not know what the employment content is in the various industries covered by these tariffs but I suggest to the Minister that it is opportune to mention on this Bill the fact that we are at the moment concerned in very important talks with the British Government on the whole question of Anglo-Irish trade. Indeed, in recent months hardly a week passes in this House without some Deputy or other standing up to comment on the position of this country in regard to the forthcoming Free Trade Area in Europe.

I should like to ask the Minister to make some reference to the question of the Free Trade Area in one form or another, either in relation to the Outer Seven, the Inner Six or in isolation, when he is replying. He should let the House know what the position is in regard to the Free Trade Area and our participation in it related to these continuing high import tariffs.

It seems to me that an industry which cannot operate on a reasonable tariff—I suggest that a tariff of 33? per cent. is a reasonably high tariff—will want to look very seriously to its future. The two instances which have been mentioned, the medicinal tablets and the tip-up chairs, must give the Minister cause for concern.

I am sorry the Minister found it necessary to impose protection on medicinal tablets. I understand, from a reply I got in the Dáil some months ago, that only one firm in this country applied to have tariffs put on. There are now five or six firms manufacturing these tablets. Apart from the psychological effect, a good deal of confusion has been caused in the ordinary public health services. A number of doctors still prescribe the old well-known forms of medicinal tablets. People go to the various dispensaries for these tablets. They are no longer kept there because these dispensaries have to purchase the Irish made product.

The dispensaries or the chemists?

I am speaking about dispensaries. People are sent by their dispensary doctors or outside doctors. They cannot get the well-known brand of tablets and they will not take the other. They, therefore, go to their local representatives and the trouble starts all over again. We have got to persuade these people that the alternative is as good in every way as the other type of tablet they always used. That has caused confusion in the local health services. Having regard to that and other complaints and the fact that the duty is such a high one—75 per cent. is very high—I wonder if the Minister might avail of this opportunity to review the whole question of the medicinal tablet industry?

Debate adjourned.
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