Deputy McQuillan has given notice that, on the motion for the Adjournment, he would raise the subject matter of Question No. 21 on the Order Paper of the 17th February, 1960 and Question No. 9 on the Order Paper of the 25th February, 1960.
Adjournment Debate. - Intermediate Drainage Schemes.
I want to apologise to the Parliamentary Secretary for the fact that I have to ask him to remain here in connection with this matter. I assure him that I would not do so were it not for the importance of the subject matter of the questions both of which relate to what is known as intermediate drainage. It is only fair that I should clarify "intermediate drainage". The House will recall that the Government in their wisdom decided to suspend the operations of the Local Authorities (Works) Act on coming into office. The result is that in many areas, particularly in counties like Roscommon, a great deal of very necessary and desirable drainage work has been held up. Members of the House on numerous occasions, urged on the Government the necessity for restoring the Local Authorities (Works) Act but without success.
I emphasise the fact that the Minister's Party at the Ard Fheis last October again urged the Government to restore the Act and prior to Christmas, when a motion on the subject was before the House, the Minister for Local Government said that the Act was finished and that was the end of it but the Government had decided to introduce what was known as the intermediate drainage scheme which would carry out some of the schemes which, up to then, were tackled under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.
The intermediate drainage scheme which we are discussing in these two questions is really a brainchild of the Minister for Local Government and the Parliamentary Secretary has been saddled with the responsibility of seeing that that brain child grows and flourishes. When the House heard that this intermediate drainage scheme was being introduced, one aspect of it was discussed which has caused serious worry in the inland counties. That was the fact that the new rivers to be tackled under this scheme would be rivers that ran directly to the sea. When I heard that, I assumed at the time—perhaps, uncharitably—that one of the counties which would immediately benefit would be Donegal which the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary both have the honour to represent. I felt that it was a snag that the intermediate drainage scheme did not really replace in any way the Local Authorities (Works) Act and I propose to show how that has worked out in my constituency.
It cannot be denied that a tremendous amount of good work was done in County Roscommon under the Act. It cannot be denied that of all counties in Ireland no county has the problems of drainage which Roscommon has. No other county has suffered as seriously in the past 25 years as Roscommon, and one would expect, when the Act was suspended on the grounds that the money had been wasted in various counties, that in an area like Roscommon, which is so greatly in need of drainage, there would be this intermediate drainage scheme to replace the Act and continue the excellent schemes which in many cases had been initiated under the Act.
To establish the position, I drafted a Question for February 17th in connection with the intermediate drainage scheme and at column 400 of Volume 179, I asked the Minister for Finance if he would state the catchments covered by the new arrangement for intermediate river drainage and those of which inspection had commenced. The Parliamentary Secretary replied:
The proposals for intermediate river drainage are intended to cover independent catchment areas which were considered too small or not of sufficient importance to be included in the main programme for drainage work under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. Preliminary inspections in four areas have been commenced: Kilcoole, Co. Wicklow, Ouvane, Co. Cork; Duff, Counties Leitrim and Sligo; and Glen,——
mark you
——Co. Donegal.
My prognostication was correct that one of the first places to benefit would be county Donegal. When I say that, I do not wish to deprive the people of Donegal of the excellent scheme which no doubt will be put into operation there.
I put a supplementary question at that stage to the Parliamentary Secretary:
Would the Parliamentary Secretary state whether any catchment area minor or otherwise, in County Roscommon is likely to be included for survey any time under this new scheme?
Mr. J. Brennan: A list of what might appear to be suitable catchments under this scheme has not yet been prepared. I am sure that when it is prepared Roscommon will be considered in conjunction with the other counties.
That was the position according to the Parliamentary Secretary on February 17th. No list had been drawn up under this new intermediate scheme, but in spite of that fact, preliminary survey work was under way in four catchment areas.
On February 25th I put a further Question in order to bring home to the Minister the importance of tackling particular rivers in County Roscommon which might be included under this new scheme. As reported at column 945 of Volume 179, I asked the Minister for Finance whether under present legislation he was enabled to include the following rivers in the list of proposals for intermediate drainage, viz. Crannagh Cross, Feorish, Lung, Breedogue, Kileglan and Ballyglass, Knockcroghery, and if so, whether he proposed to include them. I quote from the Official Report:
Mr. J. Brennan: There is no legal obstacle to the execution of drainage works on the rivers mentioned under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. All of those rivers, however, discharge directly or indirectly into the Shannon and are associated with the Shannon flood problem. I cannot say when it may be possible to deal with them in the arterial drainage programme.
It is important to see there the new line that is beginning to develop. In reply to the previous question on February 17th, the Parliamentary Secretary was sure that when the list was being prepared, Roscommon would be considered in conjunction with the other counties. The only rivers in Roscommon that could be included in any scheme worth talking about are those I have mentioned and we are told that all those rivers discharge directly or indirectly into the Shannon and are associated with the Shannon flood problem; in other words, they cannot be tackled until the Shannon problem itself is tackled. That is the latest information that it would appear that the Parliamentary Secretary wishes to convey to the people of Roscommon.
I want to expose what I think is an extraordinary piece of humbug on the part of the Government, so far as drainage in Roscommon is concerned. While the Parliamentary Secretary is telling the people of Roscommon that their drainage problems are tied up with the Shannon, the Office of Public Works are making preparations to start drainage work on the River Inny, on the other side of Roscommon. This river, which rises up near Cavan, flows through Westmeath and Meath and enters the Shannon above Athlone, is one of the longest tributaries of the Shannon. There is no question of holding up drainage on that river because it is part of the Shannon catchment area, but the small rivers on the other side of the Shannon, namely, the Crannagh Cross River, the Lung, the Feorish and these other rivers which do not flow directly into the Shannon, are to be held up, I presume, until it is possible to undertake some major arterial scheme on the Shannon at some date in the far distant future. How is it that the River Inny, a major tributary of the Shannon, is now being tackled, and yet it is not possible to do minor work in Roscommon under the intermediate drainage scheme?
In his general answer, the Parliamentary Secretary said these rivers were associated with the Shannon, formed part of the Shannon flood problem and, as such, I presume, will have to be undertaken as part of a general scheme for the Shannon. Having said that, he went on to point out that one of the rivers, namely, the river which he described as the Knockcroghery River but which is the Ballyglass River, Knockcroghery, might be considered under the intermediate scheme which is soon to come into operation in Donegal, Wicklow and Sligo. That river flows directly into the Shannon and theoretically could be considered part of the Shannon catchment area. How then can the Parliamentary Secretary include it in an intermediate drainage scheme? There have been so many conflicting answers in this matter that it is time the position was made clear for the people in Roscommon who have waited so long for some relief from flooding.
If the Parliamentary Secretary tells me that it would not be wise, feasible or right to embark on any of these drainage schemes in Roscommon until a scheme for the Shannon itself is considered, there are a few points I should like to put to him. First, why is it that the Roscommon County Council are at liberty to carry out any drainage work they like in the county, provided they are willing to pay for it? Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell me now why it is that his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, in the Westmeath Independent told Senator Lenihan he was prepared to consider an interest-free loan for the drainage of the Crannagh Cross River? The Parliamentary Secretary told me in answer to questions that that river could not be touched under an intermediate drainage scheme because it formed part of the Shannon catchment area. Yet his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, is prepared to sanction an interest-free loan; in other words, to saddle the general ratepayers in Roscommon with the cost of carrying out a drainage scheme on it. There is no question of objecting to the county council doing that.
Briefly, does it not amount to this: that the Government are prepared, under the intermediate scheme soon to be in operation in Donegal, Wicklow and other areas, to undertake drainage schemes which will be a charge on the Exchequer, but an area like Roscommon, the worst-hit area in Ireland as far as flooding is concerned, will be forced to carry out drainage at the expense of the ratepayer? Is that not the position in Roscommon? If the Parliamentary Secretary has better news than we have had up to the present on this subject, namely, the giving of interest-free loans and authority to the county council to raise the money themselves through the bank, I hope to hear it from him here tonight.
Within the past 12 months, the Taoiseach went on the wireless and came into this House to advocate increased production. His Ministers went around the country advocating increased production from the land. It does not take an authority on rural Ireland to know that Roscommon is an agricultural county. There are no industries whatever in that county. The call for increased agricultural output in Roscommon is made to a people, 50 per cent. of whom cannot touch their land because of flooding. It shows tremendous patience on the part of the people concerned, who year after year have listened to these exhortations to produce more. Yet when they do produce more and help both themselves and the economy generally, they are told by the Parliamentary Secretary on behalf of the Government that they cannot be included in any drainage scheme because they are part of the Shannon catchment area. If that is the line taken up, we must have it out. Whatever money was spent in Roscommon under the Local Authorities (Works) Act was wasted. If that is the case, then the members of the Fianna Fáil Party in Roscommon do not accept that viewpoint. I must say, whether the Parliamentary Secretary likes it or not, I am speaking for them, as I am speaking on behalf of Roscommon County Council.
At the moment spring work in Roscommon is held up. In many areas, the small farmers find their land is still flooded, land that could be drained if the rivers I have referred to were tackled. There is no excuse whatever that it will add too much water to the Shannon. That is sheer nonsense, in view of the fact that we see a major tributary like the Inny about to be tackled. Yet these small rivers—small compared with the Inny —are held up. The spring work is held up; Land Project work is held up; the forestry people in Roscommon are held up; and small congests find themselves in the position that they cannot do any spring work whatever. What are we to do about that? Have the Government decided finally that the situation in this county, which they admit themselves ranks as one of the most urgent in the matter of alleviation of the hardships produced by flooding, is to be left on the long finger until something is done with the Shannon?
Let me put it this way, that on one side of that county there is the Shannon, flanking it from Carrick-on-Shannon down below Shannon Bridge, and on the other side there is the river Suck. Flowing into both of these rivers are the rivers I referred to in one of my Questions. It was never put forward by engineers in the Board of Works, or elsewhere, that it would damage the lands of people downstream on the Shannon and the Suck if some of these smaller rivers were attended to, and perhaps at this stage the Parliamentary Secretary would offer some hope to the people in Roscommon that he will place these rivers on the priority list for intermediate drainage.
Deputy McQuillan has covered a great deal of ground in connection with drainage. It would necessitate more time than I have at my disposal if I were to go into the whole history of drainage in this country. Suffice it to say that when the Drainage Commission sat from 1938 to 1940 they made very definite recommendations regarding the specific type of drainage to be carried out. These recommendations were fully considered by the Government and all other interested parties, finally resulting in there coming into being the 1945 Arterial Drainage Act.
The substance of the Report of the Commission was that we were virtually wasting money doing anything other than arterial drainage on a catchment basis, and anybody who read the Report at the time and studied the history of drainage in this country over the previous 100 years, agreed that must be so. When the 1945 Act was brought in it was decided to tackle drainage on a major basis, on the basis of catchments, as is being done at the moment, and when I became Parliamentary Secretary I found the programme had advanced considerably.
From experience it had been learned that there were several pitfalls to be avoided and one of the greatest obstacles, one of the greatest pitfalls, likely to impede the progress of the arterial drainage scheme, was the frequent pressure brought on the Office of Public Works to take certain rivers out of their order of priority, to take certain rivers that were already included in major or minor catchment schemes and do piecemeal work on them in order to alleviate flooding in a particular area. I found that those who preceded me in administering the 1945 Act had persistently decided not to give way to pressure of that kind, and the orderly progress of the scheme up to the present time convinces me that if definite progress were to be made, I would have to follow rigorously on that line.
It is not specified in the 1945 Act that we should refrain from doing piecemeal work but it was strongly recommended in the Commission's Report that it should not be undertaken. Common sense makes it perfectly obvious that it is not good to be shifting heavy machinery from one area to another, and then finding at the end of the year that it has to be brought back to the same area again, with the result that piecemeal work does not produce the necessary improvement intended and does not properly fit into the comprehensive scheme as outlined. The scheme is progressing satisfactorily at the moment on a fairly well organised basis and as far as I am concerned I am determined that the location of schemes for any political purposes will not influence the operation of the overall scheme.
With regard to intermediate drainage, from time to time many deputations were received seeking to have drainage work carried out in their respective areas. These deputations became more frequent as the benefit of arterial drainage became more obvious during its progress from year to year. I would say that every single deputation pointed out that certain works were carried out under the Local Authorities (Works) Act in their areas in recent years and this work was now crying out to be done again. In other words, as the Deputy and the House knows, there was no provision made in the Local Authorities (Works) Act for maintenance of drainage carried out under it, which meant that the work was due to be carried out again in as short a time as possible, and thereby the effect it may have created was purely temporary and was nullified by the rivers being silted up in a short time.
It then became perfectly obvious, from the great number of deputations and representations from different areas, that some advancement of the drainage programme was necessary. Under the Arterial Drainage Act we had two lists drawn out of drainage schemes in order of priority, those known as major catchment areas and the other known as minor catchment areas and recently we decided, not from particular pressure from the Minister for Local Government or any other Minister, to extend the 1945 Act, for which new legislation would not be necessary, by adding a further type of drainage, which we call intermediate drainage, and which comes in between what is called minor catchment area work and the type of job carried out under the Local Authorities (Works)) Act.
Deputy McQuillan has accused me of selecting particular areas under that scheme but I do not think Donegal should be deprived of certain drainage work just because I happen to come from the county, or because the Minister for Local Government comes from it, but I will say that to some extent I was influenced by the proper dispersal of the first four trial schemes. It was decided that we would select four schemes for preliminary survey, and nothing more, but undoubtedly if they are found suitable we will carry out the work. So far as we have got now, I would say that some of them will not be suitable. In selecting them I was, as I say, influenced to some extent by the dispersal of the work and I decided to have one in Wicklow, one in Cork, one in Sligo-Leitrim and one in Donegal.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary not tell us for certain that it is East Donegal, not West Donegal?
It is West Donegal, the Glen River at Carrick.
Sorry.
I do not think anybody could object to the distribution of those schemes, and I would invite anybody who wishes to do so to bring his own independent engineers to examine them and find out if they are not schemes which, by every test, are crying out for execution, and which have been doing so for years past. It was on that basis we selected those four schemes and I hope that at some early date we will be able to make a full list of intermediate schemes, just as we have made for minor and major catchment areas.
The only thing which qualified a minor scheme was that it should have a separate outflow. I am not sure if the Ballyglass River is the correct one but there was one of the rivers in Deputy McQuillan's question which has a separate outflow, and the drainage of which would not aggravate the terrible Shannon flooding problem. The Deputy will know it because he is better acquainted with the topography than I. It may be the Ballyglass one, and all the other rivers are bound up with the Shannon flood problem.
What about the Inny?
I shall deal with the Inny too. All the other rivers are bound up with the Shannon flood problem, and that is a separate problem which is giving the Government a great deal of concern at the moment and on which a survey is nearing completion. It is a problem for which various solutions have been mentioned but nobody has yet found the perfect solution, not even the expert, Mr. Rydell. Even he has not suggested a definite solution for it. All he could suggest was a possible solution which is being examined at the moment and various figures, from £10,000,000 to £30,000,000, have been referred to in connection with it. Those are sums of money which no Government will decide on spending until they are assured it is going to effect some amelioration of a problem which has obtained for over 150 years.
I shall deal with the question of the Inny River before finishing. The engineers in the Office of Public Works, before they decided the final design of the Inny scheme, made certain that it would not aggravate the Shannon flooding problem. The river flows into Lough Ree and the Lough is being used for storage. The level of the Lough is being raised and no extra flow will come from it to flood the area downstream on the Shannon.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 23rd March, 1960.