asked the Minister for Health the amount which local authorities are permitted to retain from old age pensioners, both contributory and non-contributory, while being maintained in (i) institutions, (ii) mental hospitals and (iii) general hospitals.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Maintenance Deductions from Old Age Pensions.
4.
Payments by persons who are in receipt of institutional assistance, i.e. shelter and maintenance in a county home or similar institution are governed by the Institutional Assistance Regulations, 1954. Article 12 of the Regulations provides that where a person while receiving institutional assistance is in receipt of an income in money exceeding ten shillings a week, he may be required, out of so much of the income as exceeds ten shillings a week, to contribute such amount as the health authority consider appropriate towards the cost incurred by the health authority in providing him with institutional assistance. This provision covers persons in receipt of either contributory or non-contributory old age pensions, as well as those in receipt of other cash income.
Subsection (1) of Section 8 of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1960 provides that the whole of any amount payable on foot of a non-contributory old age pension to a person detained in a district or auxiliary mental hospital shall be appropriated towards the cost of maintenance of the person concerned. Subsection (2) of Section 8 of that Act provides that where the pension of a person is appropriated under subsection (1), the person in charge of the place where the person is detained may, in his absolute discretion, pay to the person for his own use such portion (not exceeding ten shillings per week) of the pension as he considers proper in the particular circumstances, if, in his opinion, the person is capable of making proper use of the portion so paid.
Income from old age pensions, contributory or non-contributory, is treated in the same manner as any other income in the case of persons availing of services in a general medical or surgical hospital, or as voluntary patients in district or auxiliary mental hospitals. Similarly, income from contributory old age pensions is treated in the same manner as any other income in the case of contributory old age pensioners detained in district or auxiliary mental hospitals.
If the health authority determines that the pensioner comes within the terms of subsection (2) of Section 14 of the Health Act, 1953, i.e. if he is unable by his own industry or other lawful means to provide the services he requires, he is entitled to maintenance and treatment free of charge. Save in exceptional cases, persons in receipt of non-contributory old age pensions would be so entitled. If the health authority determines that the pensioner is entitled to institutional services under the Health or Mental Treatment Acts but is outside the scope of Section 14 of the Health Act, 1953, he may be charged such reasonable amount as is regarded as within his competence to pay. In this connection it should be borne in mind that there may be a considerable difference in the total means of a person in receipt of a non-contributory old age pension and a person in receipt of a contributory old age pension. Whereas there is a means test in determining eligibility for a pension in the former case, there is none in the latter case and a person in receipt of a contributory pension may have substantial other means as well.
Where a contributory old age pensioner has no other means but the contributory old age pension would the Minister say whether, in accordance with the spirit of the recent Social Welfare Acts, the local authority should appropriate the entire increase of 5/- granted as from 1st January last or was it intended that at least some portion of the 5/- would be left to the recipient?
As the Deputy will see from the reply, this matter is a rather complicated one. If a person is in receipt of a non-contributory old age pension, the local authority is entitled to appropriate any amount in excess of 10/- for the purpose of defraying the cost of maintaining and looking after the old age pensioner, if he happens to be in a local institution. If the Deputy will put down another Question stating the precise information he seeks, I shall attempt to get him the information.
I am putting this question now and I should like a reply to it now, if possible, because there are a number of such cases throughout the country. If a person is a patient in a county home and is in receipt of a contributory old age pension, is that person expected to yield up to the local authority, or is the local authority entitled to demand from that person, the entire amount of the recent increase of 5/-, because if the local authority is entitled to do so, which, in effect, means the manager, it means the recent Bill, so far as these persons are concerned, might be described as an Act to relieve the local rates?
The Deputy will not get away with that. The fundamental principle is that every person who is able to maintain himself is expected to do so. If he happens to be an inmate of an institution, then the health authority or the authority responsible for the institution is doing very well if it allows him to retain 10/- a week.
They can have a very exciting life on 10/- a week.
I know that they cannot go to the race-course.
Can the Minister say if an old age pensioner has a medical card, is the local authority to take any of that money or is he given treatment without taking any of the pension?
If the Deputy will study my answer and if it applies to the case he has in mind, he will see that if a person happens to be in a health institution, as distinct from a county home, the probabilities are that he is entitled to free maintenance and treatment in the institution, but if it is a county home the position is different.
If the county home is being used—and very many of them are being used in this way—by the local authority for taking from the county hospital aged patients who are receiving treatment—they are not in for food and shelter—and when they have been treated and subsequently discharged, are the local authorities to deal with the pensions in the way the Minister has stated?
These are really not matters which should be put by way of supplementary question. If the Deputy will put down a precise question putting the case he has in mind, I will try to answer it to the best of my ability but I cannot give a "yes" or "no" answer to the question in the way he has put it.
The Minister will get it next week.