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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Mar 1966

Vol. 221 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 12: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance).

It is important, in discussing the annual Budget, that there be a rational approach in regard to its provisions, particularly in view of the fact that, apart from doing the annual national accounting, the Budget itself must take into account the overall economic position in the country and adopt such measures as are designed to ensure that economic progress is maintained and expanded. In this context, it should be seen that our present economic position is not one for despondency, is not one for pessimism, but is one in which we can take a hard look at the situation, recognise that problems have arisen which can be dealt with by a Government who want to govern and look forward to a future in which, if these problems are solved, we can expand the progress and achieve the targets we have set ourselves for 1970.

The important job of a Government facing problems or difficulties is to govern. Indeed, the job of government would be very easy if there were no problems. Problems and difficulties are, in fact, the very meat of politics and administration. I suppose that, so long as politicians are here or in any other country and so long as Governments are here or in any other country, problems will arise. To deal with these problems, it is important not to get hysterical or panicky but to look at the problems in a cold light, assess the situation and deal with them accordingly. The important thing, though, when problems arise, is that the Government of the day will sit down and look at them in a cold light and take the measures necessary to correct them. That is the situation in 1966.

I do not want to hark back too much to that period but it is pertinent to say that ten years ago, in 1956, the Government of that day, when faced with economic problems—I will not say they were entirely of their own making—did not face up to them, did not govern, but, instead, scuttled to the country prior to bringing in their Budget which it was their duty to do, as the Government of the day. They did not face the people and they did not face the realities of life. It was their duty to face up to their responsibilities. The then Leader of the Labour Party — the late Deputy Norton—and the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, were totally at variance in regard to how the problems should be solved. The inevitable split was there and we witnessed the refusal of that Government to face up to their responsibilities.

Shades of Deputy MacEntee and the Irish Times.

The basic purpose of any Government is to bring in their annual Budget and, in so doing, to face their responsibility. This is probably the most important task any Government have to face in accounting to the country for the nation's finances and in devising what should be done to balance the nation's books, to correct the economy and to get it moving in the desirable direction. This Government have faced up to their responsibility at the present time. We shall not go to the country. We do not intend to renege the responsibility with which we were charged by the people in the last general election.

I want this House and the people as a whole to contrast the situation which exists today in 1966 with the situation which existed in this country in 1956. I charge the Coalition Government of that time on this single issue alone. I shall not discuss the merits or demerits of how they found themselves in that situation but, having found themselves in a situation of economic difficulty, with problems to be faced, they refused to face up to them and to bring in their Budget because there was basic division within their ranks. They scuttled and went to the country and left us the job of clearing up the mess they left behind them and of initiating the progress which we felt this country was capable of achieving.

The figures since 1958 are good and give cause for optimism. Problems must be settled before the targets we have set ourselves can be reached, but the progress made since 1958 gives cause for guarded optimism as to the future of this country. In 1958, for the first time, a Government here originated the idea of economic planning, of programming for the future, of setting targets and devising the aids and incentives in various Government departments to achieve these targets. The result has been that, since 1958, the Irish people have had a rise of one-third in their standard of living. Since 1958, industrial output has gone up by two-thirds. There has been an increase of 20 per cent in employment in industry and an increase of 70 per cent in exports. I mention these figures to indicate what has been achieved since then.

The inevitable decline in the number of people living on the land has been counterbalanced to a substantial extent by a rise in industrial employment, though not to the extent we would wish. However, to a substantial extent, the inevitable decrease in agricultural employment has been absorbed since 1958 by an increase of 20 per cent in industrial employment. This is the basic problem which faces this country and every other country in the world today. If you go around the globe, you can see the invariable pattern of greater mechanisation, larger farms, fewer people living on the land, larger concentrations of people in urban and city centres. This is a problem in the USSR; it is a problem in the USA; and it is a problem here. Our answer to that problem—indeed, the answer everywhere—is to ensure that there is a growing volume of employment in our industries, based on our towns.

It has become fashionable for both the Fine Gael and Labour Parties— although it strikes me as very surprising coming from the Labour Party—to decry our policy of industrial expansion, to say, as Deputy O'Connell said yesterday, there was something wrong with the policy of industrial grants operated here since the formation of An Foras Tionscal, and which has brought substantial benefits by way of increased employment in Ireland. It is very easy to pinpoint the failures in regard to factories which did not succeed. But then I would advise Deputy O'Connell, and, indeed, anybody else who wishes to criticise in that way, that there is one way only in which no failures will occur, that is, to do nothing. The whole system of industrial promotion, of encouragement of foreign investment here, of giving grants and loans to such investment, of giving tax incentives where such investment was based on export industry and of assisting industrial expansion has been built up by our Government since 1958——

We are not opposed to this.

——and, in the carrying out of that programme, inevitable risks had to be taken and there have been failures. But I would like to look at the failures in the full context of success. The odd failure gets the headlines but the fact of the matter is that 97 per cent of the industrial projects started in the towns of Ireland since we initiated this programme in 1958 have been successful. There has been only a three per cent failure. If I had any criticism of that policy, it would be the reverse of the Labour Party and Fine Gael Party criticisms— that, if anything, it was an overcautious policy which has resulted in so few failures and which might be described as conservative, as possibly not taking enough risks.

Mr. O'Leary

Upon what is the Minister basing the figure of 97 per cent?

I am facing the facts as I have them from An Foras Tionscal. My only criticism of that fact is that it indicates, by reason of a three per cent failure compared with a 97 per cent success, a certain conservatism, a certain lack of taking more risks. I noticed Deputy Mullen was at it the other day, too. It appears to be a mounting criticism. Do the Labour Party want fewer people employed in this country? Do they object to the fact that there has been a rise of 20 per cent in industrial employment since 1958? That rise has been largely due to the fact that we devised this scheme of grants and loans to industry to generate private investment here which would give employment.

Deputy O'Connell yesterday gave the figure for An Foras Tionscal grants at £32.6 million. He went to great pains to pinpoint the odd failure under that scheme but 97 per cent of those projects have been successful. I will now give another figure. The grants amounting to £32.6 million generated an overall capital investment of £120 million and the employment content, when full production is reached, will stand at 37,800 workers.

The employment content in industry in respect of each grant they offered——

When will this be realised?

This is a matter of months. The figure in relation to employment at the present time may be somewhat lower. The number of people employed stands at 30,000 as a result of the direct development of capital investment.

Mr. O'Leary

What is the proportion of male adult workers?

The Deputy may put all that down by way of Parliamentary question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I am not here in the witness box, under Deputy Lindsay, much though I should like that. This is a question of making a speech, based on certain principles, in regard to how we are to go forward to make further economic progress. Further policy must be by way of public investment, directly by such State-sponsored bodies as Aer Lingus, the ESB, and Bord na Móna, or by way of indirect investment by the State in the form of grants and aids to stimulate further investment in industry. This is the basic policy, the theme, which must run through the programme we have operated since 1958 and which I have noticed tends to be decried in recent weeks because some failures have been highlighted. It surprises me, indeed, that the Labour Party, in particular, have seen fit to decry this expansion of the economy. I do not mind Deputy Barrett speaking in his usual conservative fashion; he spoke well here this morning. He epitomises all that is conservative, all that is lacking in progress in the Fine Gael Party, and it is a point of view which should be at variance with the points of view of Deputies O'Leary and O'Connell. At any rate, we should be proud of the progress made in the way of industrial employment.

The facts of life, as the Minister for Finance saw them, were that £12,500,000 had to be got. This was a deficit which had arisen, not by reason of Government expenditure in any prestige direction, because the items of expenditure which gave rise to this deficit of £12,500,000 were subsidies on dairy products and on the export of pig products which showed an increase of about £2 million: again, an essential expenditure in order to maintain the income of the small farmers of this country. We have decided that the essential economy of the small farm must be based upon milk and pig production. There has been an increase in the Exchequer grant towards relief of agricultural rates of over £1 million. We have an increase in the cost of social welfare payments of about £3 million, of which I am sure the Labour Party will approve very strongly.

The only other increase is in regard to the service of debt in regard to the capital expenditure over the years because we are paying back, to a much greater degree, the debt incurred in the past. Here again, the Labour Party policy would appear to be either irrational or dishonest. Deputy Coughlan some days ago deplored the fact that the National Debt stood at a high figure. In that respect, I think I am more in the Labour Party tradition than Deputy Coughlan or Deputy O'Connell because the £600 million expended since 1922 has been invested in hospitals, in houses, in roads, in improving our standard of living, in forestry, in land division, in every aspect of investment for this country's benefit that one can think of.

Again, had we stayed put since 1922, done nothing, and merely governed this country with the least possible expenditure either current or capital, we would have tagged it to England as an extra region and no more. Mind you, this has been the policy of all Governments and was, indeed, the strong policy of the first Coalition Government from 1948 to 1951. At that time they were accused of going too far, but I think they were right and I think we are right. My only criticism of that figure is that it is not enough. When these conservative gentlemen seek to decry the fact that we have a National Debt, I say that it represents in practical terms better Irish farms, better rearranged holdings, better living for our farmers, more factories, more houses, more roads which were built up on our own initiative since 1922 by our own Government. We took over a run-down economy which was used as a place for throwaway reliefs by the Government in West-minister. That £600 million represents an investment in the Ireland of today and the Ireland of tomorrow for our children and our children's children. That is where the £12.5 million deficit arose. I forgot to mention education in which there is also an increase since last year.

There is reduction of one-third of a million pounds in expenditure on education.

The total increase in current expenditure is of the order of £40 million since 1964-65.

For this year there is a reduction of one-third of a million pounds.

The principal headings under which there is this increase in current expenditure are: debt service, £12.6 million; agriculture, £8.1 million; social welfare, £7.4 million; education, £4.4 million. These figures were given by the Minister for Finance in his speech and they show that in the past two years there was an increase of current expenditure under four main headings: debt service, agriculture, social welfare and education.

These are the facts of life with which the Minister for Finance was faced. He could have adopted two approaches. This might be the philosophy of Deputy Barrett and some conservative members of the Fine Gael Party, but it would never be the philosophy of our Party, and despite the conservative trends in some members of the Labour Party, I think it would never be the philosophy of the Labour Party. The Minister could have decided to run a deficit and to finance that deficit by way of borrowing, and by so borrowing reduce investment on the capital side from £98 million to something like £86 million. That would have been a very conservative approach and it would have meant massive disemployment because, although we have curtailed the Capital Budget from £101 million to £98 million, we have not curtailed it drastically. If our investment of £600 million by way of the National Debt were retarded, we would face massive unemployment because side by side with the encouragement of private enterprise, it is essential in our circumstances that the State should play a very substantial part by way of direct investment in continuing progress.

Deputy Barrett criticised expenditure on the roads. This again is a substantial way in which employment is given. I will not defend the building of roads from the employment point of view alone. Our roads are a major tourist asset. With the car ferry service now operating, our excellent roads are a major attraction from the point of view of tourism. Investment in our roads represents a major investment in tourism proper.

If the Minister and the Government had said: "Right, we will not impose any extra taxation; we will continue by way of borrowing and drastically curtail our capital programme," less money would be spent on houses, on hospitals, on roads, on the expansion of our State-sponsored organisations. Instead, we made a modest curtailment in our capital programme from £101 million to £98 million. If there had been a drastic curtailment in our capital development programme of the order needed to finance the Budget deficit, that would have caused massive unemployment. The Government decided not to take that step, but to face up to the inevitable unpopularity involved in bringing in a strictly balanced Budget in which the deficit would be fully met by current taxation. Deputy Dillon said yesterday that I and other members of the Fianna Fáil Party in the Government were concerned with courting popularity and seeking votes. Any time Fianna Fáil brought in a Budget which was fully balanced, and brought it in in such a manner that the deficit was fully covered, we courted unpopularity.

The plain fact is that due to the financing of all the services, due to the inevitable demands of education, social welfare and agriculture, due to the provision of a higher standard of living—a standard of living which has jumped so much since 1958—due to all these factors, we were faced with the problem of a deficit which has been solved by way of taxation in the current year.

There was another problem which had to be faced. There was a straight-forward issue between doubling the turnover tax and devising the taxation which is before the House today. I think the decision which was taken was the right one, and I think most Members of the House would agree it was the right one. The President of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Mr. John Conroy——

He is not the President of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

The President of the Irish Transport and General Worwers' Union, Mr. John Conroy, suggested some weeks before the Budget that we should increase income tax substantially. We did not go as far as he suggested. He suggested increasing the standard rate by one shilling and it was increased by 8d. It was indeed extraordinary to see the Labour Party with the background of that advice marching into the Lobbies to vote against this increase in income tax which I have heard Deputy Corish advocating over the years as being the proper sort of taxation.

This was not near his proposal.

At any rate, I think the proper decision was taken. The wide range of taxation increases which were announced was a better choice than doubling the turnover tax which would lead to an increase in the cost of living. On the question of the cost of living, the progress which has been made since last May is the stability which has been achieved in regard to prices. That has been done by exhortation on the part of the Government——

——and by price control measures. I think the major effect of the price control measures announced has been moral or psychological rather than anything else. These measures combined with exhortations on the part of the Government have resulted in stability in prices since last May. Instead of doubling the turnover tax, this is the best method of seeking to attract into the tax net as many as possible of the spending public without responsibilities. A perusal of the range of taxation will show that the taxes are on petrol and private motorists, leaving out commercial vehicles, on income tax with the family allowances still keeping people out of the net at the lower level, on dancing, although this tax will not bring in much, on cigarettes, beer and spirits. This range of taxation covers the major segment of personal expenditure as we see it today. I think that when faced with the reality of having to raise taxation, faced with the reality of having to meet this deficit, we did the right thing and I think the people see it in this way. The people see that, faced with the situation in which we found ourselves, the correct choice was taken.

As far as the future is concerned, the approach now must be to hold the line at all levels over the next 12 months. This inevitably involves restraint in regard to incomes of all kinds. This means that if the trade unions, officially, or members of trade unions, unofficially, push too hard, it will not be good for the economy. Certain lines have been laid down by the Government in regard to this matter. The Minister for Finance stated that an overall income growth of three per cent with a possible two per cent more, having regard to certain factors, might be possible.

Why only the trade unions?

I have not finished my speech yet. I intend to refer to other people.

You are unlike Deputy Childers in that respect.

There can be no substantial increase in incomes this year. This undoubtedly is a matter for people at trade union level, people at management level and people at employer level. What is needed today is not less work, not a five-day or a four-day week, not more leisure, but more work. We need largely today a new moral or psychological attitude and I do not think the Government, despite their exhortations to achieve this, can do this without co-operation at trade union level, at management level and at employer level. The Government can achieve their purpose only if there is a new moral attitude on the part of people in the trade unions and the workers that the country cannot afford too much and that if they ask for too much from the country, it means more of their neighbours will be out of work.

An attitude on the part of management that a five-day week, a four-day week or even a lesser week, with more time in the golf club, will not be good enough in today's circumstances. Management must give more by way of work and ingenuity. There must be a realisation on the part of employers that they have a duty and a responsibility towards the community as well as to themselves to ensure that expansion takes place. There must be an risks in order to see that that expansion takes place. There must be an acknowledgment on the part of politicians, public servants and people at all levels that what is needed today is not fewer hours of work but more work and a new moral approach in which the notion of an affluent society, and the notion of leisure will not work against our ultimate aims. These notions are completely faulty in the present situation.

As far as life is concerned, whether it is life today or life in 50 years' time, we will never solve the problems of mankind in any facile manner. They will certainly not be solved by a five-day week, a 40-hour week, a 30-hour week or a 20-hour week. Work is part of our nature here and I myself am happier when I am working. Most of our people have that sort of attitude. As far as our duty at the present is concerned, this notion of living in a euphoria of less work and more leisure is totally unreal. That situation does not obtain in any country where progress has been made. Progress has been made by hard work at all levels, at workers' level, management level and capitalists' level if they take the risk and incur worries to see that progress is made. Any of the successful countries in the world have followed that principle.

A five-day week is not peculiar to Ireland. I do not think the Minister intended to give that impression but he seems to say it is the only place where we have it.

We can have a five-day week, a 30-hour week or a 20-hour week and the people can have fewer hours of work and more leisure but it can only be earned by hard work. They can earn it if they put plenty of hard work into their job and use their ingenuity to increase productivity. If they achieve those objectives, that is to the good.

The Government gave a five-day week to civil servants.

I have mentioned this as part of the general public attitude. I am talking in terms of the general public attitude which seems to think that at the present time more leisure, greater affluence and less work are the things to have. That does not happen in reality here any more than anywhere else. The sooner there is a change on the part of workers, on the part of management and on the part of employers with regard to this matter, the sooner we will achieve something. This is not a matter for the Government primarily. It is a matter for public leaders, both lay and clerical, and also the trade unions, the employers, and the voluntary organisations and public organisations who give advice to the Government and investigate social and economic problems.

This view was expressed in the NIEC Report, on which sat employers and trade union representatives. They expressed the view that you cannot take out more than you put in. As a people we have shown that we can solve our problems. We can make progress, as we have seen we did since 1958. I have no doubt we can do that again but we will not do it by making the sort of bombastic speech made by Deputy Dillon yesterday and the irresponsible speeches made on some sides of the House. I am not denying that we can have good speeches and good commonsense from all benches but we cannot have this unless there is a practical commonsense shown by everybody that we are facing up to the realities.

I see this Budget as one way in which the realities were faced. I see the Budget as a sound one and one by which this economy can achieve future progress. The Budget will achieve the ultimate purpose of ensuring that our balance of payments is brought down to a reasonable level. Progress can be achieved if we do everything we can to generate an atmosphere of confidence which will attract investors in here and encourage foreign enterprise, as well as Irish enterprise to invest here. A sound Budget, such as this one, is designed to generate confidence and to ensure that the capital inflow, both here and from abroad, comes forward. Unless we are a Government who face up to their responsibilities in regard to this, confidence will not flow. I am satisfied, as a result of this Budget following on the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement, that we will have more investment over the next six to 12 months. We cannot have that investment unless and until there is a change in the moral attitude of our people and unless the people who want to invest their money here can see that at all levels, at worker level and management level, the people as a whole are working towards that goal.

Mr. O'Leary

I am sure all of us must regret that a good socialist like the Minister for Justice finds himself defending the little paltry Budget which his Government have forced on us. He has my commiserations at any rate in his defence of the situation.

He gets a drink of water, anyway, if nobody else does.

Mr. O'Leary

I am sure he must realise that good progressives, as he has termed us in the Labour Party, have never, at any time in the past, been against the extension of credit in the raising of our employment level. He is incorrect in saying that our approach to a modern Government's task is no more than the traditional liberal's approach. We do not regard a modern Government's task as being that of a caretaker authority which does not take real action to assert its own economic ideas.

A modern Government must take a meaningful approach to employment, investment and the other problems with which the economy is faced. The Minister for Justice knows as well as I do that the Labour Party are prepared to go behind any Government who will energetically tackle these necessary jobs. Our fundamental accusation of the Government transcends Party politics because we think that should be the approach at this time. The root and the bone of this accusation is that the economy, which all of us agree is still inherently sound, is at the moment hindered by the Government in power. The Government have made such a mess of their own bookkeeping, we say, that they are hindering the necessary advance of the economy.

The Government in 1965-66 produced a new version of politics as the economic situation began progressively to worsen. They said: "Do not, for God's sake, as an Opposition attack us as reactionary as we in the past attacked." No longer must Opposition Parties say what is wrong. They should rather address themselves to the underlying problems and say the Government in power are doing their best. We, as a responsible Opposition Party, refuse to confine our attack on this Government merely to the choice of taxes they have taken at this time. The Government would seek to confine the debate to where we would get the taxes necessary, to the alternatives we would adopt as an Opposition.

We must ask how this state of affairs came about which put the Government in this straitjacket. The answer is that the Government landed themselves in this position, put themselves into this straitjacket by their choice of extra taxation. It is all the more regrettable because this Fianna Fáil Government find themselves in a more fortunate position than previous Governments because they have more sophisticated economic instruments at their disposal than ever before. From all quarters there are experts' reports on all phases of the economy. There have been economic committees and reports from experts and indeed if one were to judge the economic health of the nation by the numbers of attending economic doctors and surgeons, the patient should be well on the way to recovery. Yet, in spite of all these assessments of what is wrong, the Government came out with this hoary conservative Budget, and despite the energetic apologies of the Minister and his colleagues for it, it is in no way a different Budget from what we got in the 'thirties or earlier in the century.

It is foolish to suggest that this Budget can be tacked on lightly to the economic problems with which we are faced because of the nature of the economic problems with which we are faced. In the nature of these problems, this is a Cabinet of chancers because they preside over a situation to which by their action in this Budget they have no answer. They say the situation is now so bad that they will have to bring in a mini-Budget in the autumn. They have not in this House during this debate come down honestly to admit where the mistakes were made in their approach to the problems this year, where they were made last year. Their intervention in the year before has become highly suspect. It was the by-election year, 1964, when we were deciding on the 12 per cent increase.

The Government then made several doubtful interventions in this area. Their motives were not dominated by the kind of consensus politics that they so earnestly desire to operate at present. At that time, it was a time for mean Party politics. Their pronouncements at that time, the results of which we are reaping now, were motivated by election advantages. The position has now arisen in which the problems being faced in 1966 allow of no mean political advantages any longer.

We have pointed out that this Budget will not solve our present economic problems because the main portion of the revenue raised in this Budget will be eaten up in further servicing charges and this will necessitate a fresh look at the whole area of Government accounting in the autumn. Therefore, the debate on these taxation proposals will not bring the Government or the country any nearer to economic sanity or to the stability we are looking for. I had hoped that in the course of the debate, in view of this crippling increase in income tax, opportunity would be taken by some spokesman of the Government to try to help the current wage negotiations and the current impasse in industrial disputes.

Since there has been this massive onslaught on the living standards of employees through this increase in income tax, I had hoped the Government would give an authoritative guide line in pounds, shillings and pence for the benefit of wage discussions that are going on. They and we realise that the present rash of industrial disputes will spread and they must realise that the determination of the people involved in these disputes will be made all the stronger as a result of the onslaught on their real living standards by the increase in income tax. I hope that before the end of the debate opportunity will be taken by some member of the Government on this matter.

One of the acid tests of a Government's success in the State's economy, in the management of the Government's economic affairs, lies in that most sensitive of all registers, the field of employment. For 1966, OECD have had occasion to draw attention to the Government's failure in this area. Though there has been an increase in industrial employment, the fact is that the fall-away in agricultural employment has more than offset that increase and indeed in the foreseeable future, according to this survey, we cannot hope for any signs of the increase in employment which the Government, in their own political version of the economic future of this country, forecast a few years ago.

If it is true—this is becoming increasingly evident—that the aims of the Second Programme were over-optimistic—my Party criticised the Programme for being too optimistic in its estimates in regard to employment—then the Government must take the House into their confidence and begin a more realistic assessment of where this Programme is leading us, because there is no use in having this country committed officially to an economic plan by consent, by exhortations to the interests involved, if the targets which these groups are supposed to reach are now becoming increasingly unattainable. Definitely, in the area of employment, we see the targets of the Second Programme as becoming a little Utopian in our situation. This is a pretty sad position for a Government who are now approaching their tenth year in office, as the present Government are. It is understandable that any Cabinet after ten years in office should be a little tired. All the signs of the present Cabinet's approach to our economic problems indicate a Government who are tired, bereft of ideas, whose grip on the real economic situation is becoming progressivly more feeble, a Government who very soon, unless they try a new and more honest approach to their problems, must go the way of all Governments losing their grip on real events.

Although the Government have not said so as yet—the Taoiseach denied it early last year—the position now facing us is becoming increasingly serious. I think nobody can deny that now. The Government should tell us, in this debate, if it is their intention if the situation continues as at present, if it does not change for the better, authoritatively whether they intend to devalue the pound. Drastic as this devaluation of the pound is, it is one way of answering our problems. In any case speculation on this matter will increase unless the Government tell us what is intended. They have bungled credit in the last year or two. They did not intervene because of narrow political considerations in time to stop the credit bonanza which swept the country at that time. This was the land of plenty; there was no real cloud on the economic horizon. The situation has changed and last July, I think, the Taoiseach for the first time gave a comprehensive assessment of the situation and its serious implications.

This year and at the end of last year this Dáil has been more dominated than ever by the economic situation. This must be about the fourth economic debate we have had in the 18th Dáil. During the discussion on the Free Trade Agreement, our Party based their opposition to that Agreement on the fact that we did not consider that Agreement as any real substitute for a realistic policy on our economic situation. Stripped of all the ballyhoo surrounding the negotiation of that agreement, it emerges as merely one other leap in the dark by this Government.

I agree with the Minister that this is not a time for panic but a time to look seriously at the situation. I do not think the macabre suggestion of Deputy Burke about a sixpence a head save-the-country fund is a realistic answer to our situation. Flag days will not help the country better its present economic position but certainly the Cabinet must make a drastic reappraisal of the programme under which it is working, the Second Programme. It must tell us whether these targets are unrealisable and have become so, in fact, and what changes we must make in our investment programme in the years ahead if we are to survive this particularly difficult period.

The OECD Report to which I have already referred has posed questions as to whether our growth target should be reduced and I think the Government should consider the three possibilities posed by the OECD at this time. We could consider whether further external borrowing should be made to foot the present capital bill before the Government. We have had a rather unhappy experience in the past year in regard to our trips abroad to raise foreign capital and certainly we could not long afford that line of activity if the interest rates which, unfortunately we were forced to pay in the case of the recent German loan, were repeated. In any case it is a pretty doubtful proposition to say that a Government's continuing hope of influencing investment in the country must depend on such short-term considerations as the borrowing of foreign funds to finance capital industry.

The 1965 OECD Survey Report spoke about the necessity for an incomes policy. Our Party have always been in favour in principle of an incomes policy and we are glad to see that the Government last year came round to this view, but what we must emphasise even more now is that in an incomes policy, time is the all-important factor. It is no use calling for an incomes policy when inroads have been made on the living standard of the workers. As far as possible some kind of equilibrium in incomes must be reached before we can consider an incomes policy as a realistic possibility. Such equilibrium is not in sight at present. If anything, incomes appear to be swinging further away from equilibrium and unjustifiable differentials exist even on the wages front and appear to be increasing.

We have consistently said that the criterion for one's sincerity in the application of an incomes policy must be the amount of thought given to its applicability to all types of income groups. It is no use to be aware of the difficulties in the introduction of an incomes policy merely for the lowerpaid groups, the trade union employees, the hewers of wood and drawers of water. We must understand how it can apply to managing directors, Cabinet Ministers and property owners. If we do not prove consistent in showing how it can be applied to all groups, we show clearly that our talk of an incomes policy is no more than another short-term expedient to ward off economic ills.

Imports have risen. As we can see from the OECD Report and its assessment of these rises in imports, we cannot really blame as the major cause of this, the usual culprit, a working force with too much consuming power which demands more goods and many of them foreign imports. In this case it is shown that a large proportion of the imports was capital equipment for different industries. If we are to cut down on this import figure, and reduce our balance of payments problem, we must be selective as regards the kind of capital equipment we import and how we go about this particular angle of imports.

The Minister, when introducing his Budget, spoke about this country being still a very comfortable place, one of the best places in the world in which to live. One of the troubles of being in Government for upwards of ten years is that it is understandable that Ministers can become a little strange to reality. By sheer inertia of power from being in Government for so long, they become unaccustomed to the ordinary facts of life and a little distant from them. The Minister is a sincere man. I am sure life is comfortable for him. It is comfortable for many of us in this House. It is not comfortable for the majority of people in this country. The present unrest in industrial relations is not a tribute to the comfort of life for the majority of the people. It is a testimony to the discomfort and hardship that many people are faced with in the increasing cost of living.

Remember, this Government and this Budget have given no answer to the predicament of these people faced with the increased cost of living. Rather, they have promised them hairshirts all the way. If this is a hairshirt Budget, there is another promised for next October. The Government have spoken in guarded terms that if the situation does not improve, a further hot bath may be necessary in the autumn. In these circumstances, to look for restraint from ordinary working people throughout the country is to expect a little too much.

The Minister also said that the Government had discarded the idea of increasing turnover tax. I do not think that we can be rid of the suspicion that this Government before their term of office expires this year or next year will not resist the temptation to increase the turnover tax. We in opposing the turnover tax element when first introduced were chiefly aware of its inflationary tendency in our economy. We thought of it, we suspected it, we opposed it on the basis that we considered that it gave the Government an inbuilt inflationary device in our economy and in the event we were proved absolutely right in our suspicion in this matter.

The Government, considering that this was an inflationary boomerang, that it pushed up retail prices, that it intensified the inevitable race between prices and wages, rejected that particular tax on this occasion, introducing it merely in the area of dances, but, as Deputy Dillon said, what is introduced in an area like dances may later on be introduced in other areas.

The fact is that some of the taxes imposed in this Budget will themselves have an inflationary tendency in our economy. Who can give us a realistic answer to where the increase in petrol will lead, what it will lead to in our economy? It is true that the Government can give an appearance of being a determined Government who are immune to criticism from all quarters and can say resolutely that petrol is a luxury commodity. Petrol is not a luxury commodity for many people at the moment. Many people depend for their livelihood in a private capacity on petrol, on fuel consumption. Indeed, the increase in petrol and other fuels in this Budget must have its inflationary effect on our economy. With a Government so determined on taxing, in their definition, luxury items in this Budget, so determined to show themselves to be a Government with the interests of the people at heart, it is extraordinary that, when faced with social welfare recipients, the Government should delay until November of this year any extra payment to persons who are now recognised, irrespective of Party affiliations, as being people deserving of some concern and care.

We have all moved to the left. This Government have gone further to the left than any Party in this House. Yet, this move to the left does not include any concern for old age pensioners and social welfare recipients. A Government who were showing themselves really concerned about those people in our population whom all consider to be unjustly treated could have given them a higher priority on their list of help cases in a Budget than this Government have done.

Indeed, the tendency to broadcast benefits in advance of their payment has become an increasing feature of this Government. We have had it already in the proposals on health. We have had television broadcasts as to their merit but no indication of implementation. There is a similar case in the area of social welfare recipients. Again, we have a fanfare: "We are the people who will introduce it but wait until later for the actual pay-out." This, in effect, is government by propaganda, not government by deed or by action. It is government by remote control, government by sooth-saying.

To sum up, we, in opposing this Budget, considered that it was important to make it quite clear that, in an economy which in the past two or three years, in a large measure due to favourable international trends, was fundamentally healthy, but which did suffer a certain tendency towards inflation last year, the Government in charge of this economy, given responsibility for the management of this economy, misjudged the signs of danger in the economy, or ignored them, for what motives we do not know. This Government, indicted of this particular neglect, come to this House with this Budget and say: "We crave the Opposition's indulgence in this serious situation facing the country. Please do not be rough on us. The situation is definitely against us. Give us your helpful constructive criticism." We will give our helpful constructive criticism but at the same time, we must indicate who are the people in the dock in the debate on this Budget which does not give any real hope of economic improvement, which is a repeat of old refrains. In a situation in which we have more economic tools in our hands today, better methods for dealing with the economic position, the Government merely repeat old tunes better forgotten. This Government brought forward a Budget that shows no imagination, no real thinking in regard to our problems and expect the support of the Opposition Parties in this debate.

We think that the country should know that the people responsible for the economic difficulties we are going through at the present time are the Fianna Fáil Government, now entering their tenth year in office, a Cabinet of chancers with no real control over the economic situation.

The debate on the Budget is now in its second week. So far there has been a considerable scarcity of Government defenders for the policy, or ought one say the lack of policy, as appearing in this Budget document, Nevertheless, in the course of this morning and last evening, I listened to three extremely interesting contributions from the Government benches. Last evening Deputy Moore spoke of the wave of pessimism that was raging throughout this land. This morning Deputy Burke, with characteristic external honesty images, submitted this country to what Deputy O'Leary has called a flag-day process but what I would call passing round the hat. He earnestly pleasded that in our present circumstances all good and patriotic people both at home and abroad, should co-operate with this great Government in their great crisis today. He urged upon us the example of the new State of Israel and he sought to encourage the Irish in America to make some contribution towards remedying the financial chaos here existing by way of bonds of some sort. When I reminded him that the previous experience of bonds in America might not encourage them at this juncture, he dropped that particular subject and went back to the 6d. a week.

Deputy Moore described the pessimism that exists. He went further, as I thought with great courage and great honesty, when he said he wondered if we had as much to celebrate in this particular year as we ought to have, having regard to the sacrifices made and the opportunities we had. Later this morning the Minister for Justice spoke with boundless energy and with characteristic effrontery. At one stage during the course of his speech, he said he would not be subjected to cross-examination by Deputies of the Labour Party but by way of pleasant aside, he said he would not mind being crossexamined by me. I would dearly love to get the Minister for Justice into a witness box and then cross-examine him not alone on this Budget but on the last Budget and on the speeches he made in the last general election. I would sincerely hope that the fact that he had begun his evidence after taking an oath would make a substantial difference in the presentation of the case he made here today.

He told us, unlike the people from the back benches, Deputy Burke and Deputy Moore, that there was no pessimism. He had two other words for it. He said we had a "guarded optimism". Well, now, when you pass through the village, if you might describe it as such, of guarded optimism, the signpost to pessimism must be very near the bridge below the town. He talked of the necessity for a rational approach, of accounting to the country for the nation's finances, and he excused the mistakes in relation to certain industrial enterprises by reason of the fact that if one did not do something, one would not make a mistake at all. I do not think that is valid. It is not valid when a Government aided by experts in all fields, having all the time in the world in which to be advised and to consider that advice, made mistakes industrially by way of grants of the magnitude which have been made with the dreadful consequences which have followed in certain areas.

The Minister for Justice urged a change in the moral and psychological attitude of our people. He was a preacher of sorts coming towards the end; to what particular brand of oratory or what particular brand of spiritual exhortation I would hesitate to classify, but it came very close to the old Latin one of laborare est orare, to work is to pray. I would remind the Minister that all the exhortations in the world without good example will achieve very little by way of moral changes. I would also remind Deputy Burke that a slogan like “honesty is the best policy” on a packet of some kind of commodity does not necessarily give a warranty for the quality of the commodity itself. In asking for co-operation today, Deputy Burke appealed to all right-thinking people, as he says, to co-operate in this moment of crisis, and then he proceeded to talk about what happened, as, indeed, did the Minister for Justice, in this country in 1956 and 1957. I am not aware, and I was in Government towards the end of that period, of being supported, exhorted or, indeed, humiliated by speeches of co-operation and comfort from Fianna Fáil benches at that time. Rather did they take the full political advantage of a situation in which the Government found themselves, a situation, as was conceded by the Minister for Justice this morning, not wholly due to anything of their own doing at that time. We suffered adverse terms of trade, there was a Suez crisis and, generally speaking, the whole European and Middle East situation had its effects upon us. We went to the country and gave the people their opportunity of changing the Government, which they did, and since then we have had the Fianna Fáil Party in power.

I remember in the first Budget of 1957, the then Minister for Finance, Dr. Ryan, making great play of the fact that he looked forward under the new policy of the new Government to a considerable decrease in the Civil Service, with a consequent decrease, of course, in the cost of administration. That has not been borne out by the facts so far. The numbers have increased and the cost of administration has naturally increased with them.

In relation to the increases given to the Civil Service last year, I do not think any right-minded person would begrudge anybody a fair and just wage or salary for a fair return. After all, the labourer is worthy of his hire. But I think the increases were too high and were not deserved at that level, as status increases. Like Deputy M. P. Murphy, I would like to know what is the difference between work described as not having status. What is a status increase? I always thought increases should be related to the cost of living, generally speaking. This status business is something very new, something which is not desirable for the overall good of the country.

Secondly, I object to the manner in which these increases were given. They took place after the publication of the Book of Estimates last year and, in fact, were only made known to the public through the process of Parliamentary question here. That was bad example and gave rise to all kinds of discontent. We are all aware now of what followed in the wake of these increases.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Now that we have a nice, contented gathering. I can begin again. I was dealing with the Civil Service increases on the larger scale and saying that, in my view, they were not warranted in that amount and that they were given at the wrong time and in the wrong way, with the inevitable result of setting bad example. The case has been made that people of that kind would have to be paid those amounts in order to keep them in the service by giving them at least the same as they would earn in industry outside. I do not think that is a valid argument in a country of this kind. That might be all right in England or America where you have huge corporations employing men of knowledge and expertise, but not in this country. I do not know of many places where people could walk out of the Civil Service and demand salaries in industry of £3,000, £4,000 or £5,000 a year. If the Government were really sincere about keeping administration on a proper keel it is to the lower income groups these increases should have gone. It is in the lower income groups you have younger people in the marrying age— the age of buying a house, making repayments and building up a family. That is the difficult time. Those engaged in that particular part of the battle of life are the people really enjoying what I would call a status deserving of recognition.

I am not going to say any more on that aspect. The whole manoeuvre has done the country a lot of ill. It was bad example. When people found that something not in the Book of Estimates, and which amounted to £4 million, had taken place overnight— secretly as far as they were concerned— you could not blame them for being disappointed, discontented and looking for more in their own particular groups.

Characteristically, the Minister for Justice tried to put it across here today that there was nothing wrong at all. We had only to balance a Budget and pay our way. This did not involve any great suffering and these taxes only hit the spending public. As to whom else they could hit, I would find it hard to know. He did not take any cognisance of the fact in the overall picture that there are fewer at work than there were and that the much-vaunted Second Programme for Economic Expansion has fallen short of its target in this regard and will fall far shorter by the time the date-line for the target is reached in 1970.

We are living in the midst of very serious industrial strife. Each day lost is a day of considerable remuneration lost to the State. The Government have fallen down particularly in not examining the machinery for conciliation, giving it urgent thought and implementing that thought. If they came in with legislation of that kind, I am quite certain that from these benches and from the Labour benches, they would get the fullest possible co-operation.

Everybody is anxious to see a nation industrially at rest and working, in so far as the investment permits, at full pitch in order to see that the country moves along in the same industrious and ultimately prosperous flow that exists in Europe at the moment. The Government have not done that. They have fallen down very seriously in that regard. Even at this late hour some pronouncement should come from the Government that they have legislation ready to bring in. It should take precedence over everything else so that, once and for all, we shall get our machinery properly in order and we shall enable the Labour Court or such other conciliation body as might be set up to bring in decisions that would be implemented. Everybody must take a bit of the blame for this, employers, employees, the Government and everybody else. However, if the Government are going to do things with their own employees they cannot expect other employees not to look for the same kind of thing.

Emigration is still there, particularly from rural Ireland. The Minister for Justice talked of people leaving the land and coming into the bigger centres. That is not our experience in the west of Ireland nor. I am sure, is it true of the north-west and south-west. Our experience is that when people leave the land there, small as it is, probably bad as it is, they leave forever. They are not going to an Irish crowded centre, to an Irish town; they are going to an English city or town or some similar place in America. Once that happens and once they have become accustomed to the highly mechanised standard of living in these countries, it would be unreal to expect them to come back.

Most Deputies have experience of by-elections. By-elections bring us all into different parts of the country. I am sure every, Fianna Fáil Deputy was in East Galway, Roscommon and Leitrim, as I was. I am sure they canvassed house to house, as I did, in certain areas and that deep down as they returned to their hotels or their friends' houses to stay that night they must have felt the same sort of despondency as I and others like me felt when we visited the houses of the old where the voice of a child was absent, when we met the old brother and sister or the widow, nobody living around some of these places that could give one any hope for the future, certainly places that were not either kept or developed in such a manner as would encourage the absent son or daughter to come back.

These are the things about which we should think a little more. They are possibly not the things that Deputies representing wealthier parts of the country would be worried about, but if we have any kind of human approach at all to the problems affecting this country we must consider the problems of all the people whether they live on the good land or on the bad land, whether they are in the small fishing villages or living around the flooded areas of the Shannon and other such places in the south and the north alike.

The Minister for Justice talked about the necessity for accounting to the country for the nation's finances. He says that is the exercise at Budget time. I should have thought that the true pipeline as between government and governed would be that of truth and that the people should be told the truth at all times. At the time of the last general election—and I do not care very much for the exercise of going back but it is so recent that, it is probably relevant now—the Taoiseach, his Ministers and all his candidates went around this country telling us of the wonderful situation we were in. That was at the end of March and the beginning of April, 1965, not even a year ago. Everything was under control, and so much was it under control and so prosperous was the state of the nation's affairs that the Fianna Fáil Party conceived a slogan at that time which could mean: Do not disturb, do not do anything to rock the boat but allow the wheels of the nation to continue to run smoothly. That slogan was: "Let Lemass lead on."

There is nothing wrong with slogans if they achieve their objective for the people using them. At the same time, there must be a fundamental honesty about a slogan so that it will be valid after the achievement of its purpose. That was only in March/April of last year and then as someone has already said this morning, in July, for the first time last year, the Taoiseach showed certain concern about the financial and economic affairs of this country. Surely he must have known something about it in the previous March or April, but it was, I suppose, bad politically to let the people know that the country was not doing as well as the Government would have them believe it was.

The Minister for Finance asked what went wrong with the Budget he introduced last May. Perhaps the real thing that went wrong is that the Budget of last May was conceived and designed for the purpose of bringing the nation's financial affairs outwardly, at least, into line with the complacency we were supposed to accept under the slogan "Let Lemass lead on". In March/April the situation was wrong and, of course, in May the situation was wrong. However, they could not tell the people in March or April, and May, Budget time 1965, was too soon to burst the bubble of pre-election prosperity. When it came to July the Taoiseach could forget all that had gone before and tell us things were not going so well.

I agree with the Minister for Justice that hard work is the basis of all prosperity, hard work founded upon the faith that a reasonable reward will come from it, that it will be stable and of a lasting character. I do not think we will engender any real atmosphere of that kind in the great deluge of white papers, green papers, and blue papers that are being showered upon us, full of technicalities and full of verbiage which, while they may not be designed to deceive, nevertheless do not give the full and true picture to the uninitiated.

There are the higher costs of administration and the higher cost of servicing our National Debt. When the cost of running the Government and the cost of servicing the National Debt are taken from the whole amount of our national Budget, one can see how little there is upon which to work. It will take a great deal of thought and a less prolific output of white papers to cure the particular kind of situation in which we find ourselves.

Foreign borrowing has been mentioned. We have reached a rather sad stage in our economic and financial history this year. First of all, we had the failure of the American loan and, mark you, it is extraordinary that the Americans, with the amount of goodwill there is towards Ireland, were not able to come to our assistance. The failure was probably due to lack of faith in us and lack of faith in the ultimate result of any particular investment they might make. We had to go to the World Bank and, hard on the heels of that, we had to negotiate a loan with Germany.

This year—this has been mentioned as one of the reasons for bringing the Budget forward—we will celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the 1916 Rising. Apart from an unfortunate but, happily short-lived, division in arms this country has been at peace ever since. We escaped the ravages of the 1939-45 war. We had the benefit in those years of being the storehouse for a hungry Britain and, indeed, for a hungry North of Ireland. We had all the advantages that accrue from that sort of affluence.

This year we will celebrate close on 50 years of peace and in this 50th year of peace we have to borrow £7 million from a nation that was on its knees only 20 years ago, a nation beaten and almost battered off the face of the earth. The contrast is one which does not bear very exhaustive patriotic examination. The question is are we finished now with foreign borrowing. That is a question to which I should like the Minister to reply when he comes to conclude this debate. Are we finished with foreign borrowing? Will this Budget ensure that our finances will be in such a state, when it comes to Budget time again, that we will not have to say anything about foreign borrowing and that we may, indeed, be able to do something about starting on the road to repayment? Borrowing is always dangerous. Shakespeare said it "dulls the edge of husbandry". That is true. Borrowing is an easy process on the whole but paying back, whether it be a personal or a national experience, is an extremely difficult one.

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be".

The great complaint of the people now is that they were not told about the situation in the course of the last general election. They were not told that there was trouble ahead and that they would have to play their part in overcoming that trouble.

The Budget was described by a correspondent on the local paper in my constituency as a Social Welfare Budget. I am surprised that such a distinguished graduate of such a distinguished paper should so fall from journalistic grace. The only social welfare effort in the Budget is the 5/- per week from 1st November next. Even the date has been pushed back from the traditional 1st August. The sum is only £250,000 for pensioners, whether they be old age, widows and orphans, public assistance or disabled. Into the picture, too, comes the destitute with no means. There will be no chance at all of getting this 5/-. We have all had experience of the difficulty so many people had in getting the second 5/- in last year's increase.

There was a good deal of talk about current expenditure and capital expenditure, the public sectors and the private sectors. Look around the country. What is happening? When one examines what is happening one cannot be impressed by all this talk of prosperity and increased industrial employment. The Minister for Justice today tried to make considerable capital out of the fact that the increase in industrial employment had more than offset the reduction in agricultural employment. If it has, then I am very glad but, on the long-term basis, is that a good thing? I have a fear that, when the Free Trade Agreement comes into operation on 1st July next, industrially we shall be put into a very, very difficult position. I hope we will be able to survive it. If we do not survive it there will be inevitably—this has been conceded—unemployment in certain types of industrial production. All that will be left will be the land on which to fall back. If an agricultural country is not maintained and preserved agriculturally, and the fertility of the soil sustained through all the methods available, if all that is not done, then the agricultural community will begin to suffer and, from suffering, will begin to wither away. That will be true particularly in relation to the small farms.

This is a very savage Budget because it affects almost everybody. For everyone it represents a cut of some kind, however big or however small. I particularly deplore the increase in the tax on private motor vehicles because a motor vehicle is no longer a luxury or a near-luxury. A motor car, particularly the smaller car, is no longer a luxury in this country; it is part and parcel of the working makeup of the family. However, in the main, where there is a car, it is used for the family's particular employment or certainly that of members of the family. I know people who have motor-cars—they are on the hire purchase: there is no doubt about that—and they have to drive long distances to work. They would be the second and third sons, say, of a small farmer going to work with the ESB, Bord na Móna, at forestry or for some other business or even sometimes in shops in towns and who go home in the evening. To them, this increase in the taxation itself, coupled with the increase of 4d a gallon on petrol, must be a substantial wage cut—as well, of course, as the 8d increase in income tax.

At one time, the people or the Party or the Government, either here or in any other country, who sought to reduce income tax were immediately accused of trying to favour a certain class of people. But now, since the introduction of PAYE, everybody pays income tax, less or more. Income tax is no longer a mysterious kind of tax which was paid by the wealthy only. It is now paid by everybody. Accordingly, an increase in income tax hits every wage-earner over a certain minimum and the minimum, indeed, is not very considerable.

These are the two things and I particularly deplore the attack on the motor-car. Of course, there has been the departure from the principle—well-established and recognised—that motor taxation is for the Road Fund and the improvement of roads. I know it has been said by other speakers that on one occasion the Government to which I belonged did take half a million pounds from the Road Fund and that is true, but the House and the country were told about it, and anyway, it was for one year. This, however, is something different. This goes into the Central Fund.

I do not know how long beer, spirits and tobacco will survive these perennial attacks. There must be a point of no return. I do not think we can be very far away from it. However, the Minister in his wisdom, and having regard to the advice which he had, decided that that was the best way of going about this business of collecting an extra £12½ million taxation this year. I hope he gets it and, if he does, it will be a great tribute to the drinking, smoking and driving community of this country.

I hope that this increased taxation to the tune of £12½ million, will bring about a situation where we shall not have to write repeatedly on behalf of our constituents to the Department of Local Government to pay housing grants. I hope we shall not have to write repeatedly to the Agricultural Credit Corporation to get the most meagre amounts sanctioned. I hope the various local authorities will soon be able to meet their commitments in the housing field. I am not at all impressed by this talk about education and health. There has been a cut-back on these and let us face that fact. I am afraid that all of the talk about schools and the building of schools and transport is nothing but talk. It is a smokescreen to cover a very awkward situation for which there has not been and probably is not any money to remedy it.

We have not been able to get any of the grants paid in respect of the heifer scheme or any of the various schemes in the Department of Agriculture. There is a deplorable situation in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I know they have their industrial troubles there but I do not think that justifies the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in seeking to get three, five or even up to seven years of the rental in advance, thereby eating the calf, as the old saying goes, in the womb of the cow. That has always been recognised, even in the adage, as an extremely dangerous economic practice.

Then, of course, we have the threat of the autumn Budget. I hope it is only a threat: in fact I think it is. I think it is a threat to trade unions not to seek any more increases. I do not hold any brief for trade unions or for organised labour, except that, as a public representative, I hold a brief for fair play. I do think, again, that the Government have fallen down on this in not providing the proper, necessary and effective legislation to remedy this horrible day to day, week to week, month to month, situation where valuable time and production are lost.

The most significant thing, I think, of this account of the nation's housekeeping is the reduction of £5 million in small savings. That is the kernel. You see what is happening in a country where savings drop, particularly small savings. I think every Deputy on all sides of the House will agree with me that, to save anything at the moment, even on what would be regarded as a good income, is an extremely difficult thing to do. Where people do manage to save a little, on comparatively small incomes, it is always a marvel to me how they do it. Certainly, it is not done without considerable sacrifice and considerable self-denial. Now, of course, when I get up to speak here on the Budget situation, I am conscious of the fact that I am speaking for a constituency situated in the west of Ireland which, for many a long year, has been almost forgotten. Frequently have I said that the economy of this country appears to be the economy of the good land and forget about the rest. Now, on page 14 of his Budget speech, the Minister deals with the small western farms. He talks about the selection of 12 pilot areas for special development and of an increase in land project grants. Everybody knows that that increase in the land project grants—certainly in the kind of area which I represent—has been largely illusory and that one cannot get the £50 an acre unless one satisfies the local inspector that the estimate will be for a minimum of £65.

I hope that the appointment of the full-time officials in each western county for the work of assisting county development teams will bear fruit, and bear fruit soon, but I do not see that they will get much of a chance. I should like to know what fund these men will have at their disposal in order to promote the good of these areas. If it is a question of advising people about the land project, about surface drainage, hill sheep farming, and so on, we have all these advisory services already. I want to know what they will be doing and from what fund they can draw to supplement any scheme which they may formulate and find sanction for in the appropriate Department.

From page 16, paragraph 2, I quote:

As a further indication of the Government's intention to be flexible and helpful in dealing with the development needs of the West, it has been decided, even in the difficult circumstances of this year, to arrange to vote a sum of £100,000 which could be drawn upon for special schemes for small Western farms.

One hundred thousand pounds sounds a lot of money; it is the equivalent of two people winning first prizes in the Sweep, two £50,000s. Anybody who would hear of anyone winning two first prizes in the Sweep would say they were made up for ever. But, taking it merely as a £12 million increase in taxation this year, what does £100,000 represent? This Government magnanimity to the west has allocated a fund of £100,000 from which drawing could be made; it is not fully allocated. What does it represent of that increased taxation? It represents a halfpenny in the £1. If it were related to small farms so categorised, it would represent one-tenth of a penny for each farm. This is a very sad performance for the various people in the National Farmers Association, in Muintir na Tíre, the Irish Countrywomen's Association and all the voluntary organisations who pinned their faith to the great promises which were made and who were content to leave agitation on one side in order to await the fulfilment of the great promises.

The Minister for Justice called today for a change in the moral and psychological attitude of our people. Once a people are treated with this cynicism underlying this amount, they cannot be expected to refer their will, either morally or psychologically, towards a Government who would be inclined to call this benevolence. Mind you, it is not that this Government, through their Party, are not devoting considerable attention to the west of Ireland by way of attending functions and meetings and delivering there the most spirited of addresses. Within the last six to seven weeks, we have had three Ministers in the constituency of North Mayo which Deputy O'Hara and I represent here. The Minister for Justice had a rendezvous with the faithful in Crossmolina. He did not tell them anything only six or seven weeks ago of any likely increases in taxation or where they might be. He did not exhort them to change morally or to adopt new psychological attitudes unless that was to be interpreted as telling them that the Opposition had slipped before and that they could slip again and to do their utmost to get their second seat back in North Mayo. I think their hopes of that, after this Budget, are remote in the extreme.

About a fortnight after, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs visited Ballina—another dinner—and he had great news for the people there. It was not about taxation; it was not about any intention the Government might have with regard to taxation. He said the progress which had been made was of an astounding character and Deputy Calleary agreed and said he was never happier than the day he heard of the Trade Agreement. But before that—I must be fair to the Minister—he also told them we had abolished the oath of allegiance and the Governor-General. The younger people, I am sure, were wondering what these new pop tunes were.

On last Sunday week, to Ballina again, came the Minister for Social Welfare without a word about taxation and he was assisted there by his local lieutenants who promised him everything, that everything would be done to get the second seat back. I doubt if the second seat will be got back by increased taxation on the motor cars which bring young people to work at Bellacorrick, Glenamoy, or any of the other places where they use cars to go to work. There was another piece of good news for the country's future economy at the same meeting when it was urged strongly upon the Minister to bring back to the Government the views of Fianna Fáil in North Mayo that the local elections should not be held in October because, by then, the entire labour force of the constituency would be in Great Britain. Is that a great tribute to the progress made by Fianna Fáil in that particular part of the country?

Before I finish, may I quote from two very interesting speeches? One was made in Ballina on 28th March, 1965, by the Taoiseach. He was supported there by his friends in the Party, old and new. He said, and I quote from the report of his speech published in the Irish Independent of the following day:

The most important matter that would have to be considered by the new Dáil and the new Government would be the completion of plans to build up the economy of the western seaboard counties and to complete the plans already coming into operation to improve things there.

He said that he believed this was the major unfinished business now outstanding in the nation's affairs. Other things, by and large, had been settled; industrial development was going ahead and, provided there was not interruption, it would continue. Their agricultural plans were now completed and beginning to give results in higher outputs and higher standards of living.

So, the Government having thought it all over and having devoted their attention to this major unfinished business, thought well—in this Budget of 1966— to devote £100,000, a halfpenny in the £1 of the increased taxation, towards saving the small farms. Of course that was before the election, and the pressure was on. That was at Ballina on the Taoiseach's tour of the principal towns. He could not be expected, of course—although a Taoiseach did it once before—to go to the lesser places, but he sent an equally important person to Belmullet two or three days later. I want to quote now from the Irish Press of 31st March, 1965, and to his new friends and old in Belmullet, the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Haughey, began by saying:

No other matter will receive more unremitting attention from the new Fianna Fáil Government than the economic revival of the West, Mr. Haughey, Minister for Agriculture, declared in Belmullet yesterday.

Has the Deputy got the one about the fleadh cheoil in Foxford?

That was in lighter vein. The report goes on:

The Government regards it as a national, and not a local problem, he said.

Outlining the methods to be adopted, Mr. Haughey said the Land Project grants will be increased.

I have already dealt with that. It goes on:

Sheep could be of great benefit to Western farmers and he intended setting up a special pilot area to see what additional aids are needed in this sphere.

This was a speech full of great promises to people who, if they got half as much as was promised, would have been very content indeed. Up to last Friday there was no notion in the Department of Agriculture of setting up pilot areas to deal with sheep or anything else in that part of Mayo. The quotation continues:

Mr. Haughey also stressed Government plans for drainage credit and the commonages problem.

Anyone who wants to go into the commonages problem and find out the assistance they will get, the submission of maps they will have to make, will discover that the Land Act is not as wonderful as it was cracked up to be. The quotation continues:

On the land project grants, he said the Government is having the situation examined to see what is necessary and what new grants could be introduced. As a first step it has decided to increase the present limit of the grant of £30 per acre so that a number of farmers now unable to benefit could do so.

Access to credit will be essential and this is already available in a number of different ways. If, however, it can be shown, either as a result of experience in the pilot areas or otherwise, that any substantial number of farmers cannot avail themselves of the structure of services, then I shall have them amended or extended where necessary, he said.

He was not finished. He went on:

Drainage is of fundamental importance to the farmers of the West. The Shannon Basin affect a great part of the West and, at the special request of the Taoiseach, Mr. Lemass, Mr. Donogh O'Malley has prepared a special crash programme to get this work started immediately.

Of course, the crash programme was started in Boyle at an election meeting and was accepted by the people of Roscommon as the hypocritical announcement it was, and they succeeded in returning Deputy Mrs. Joan Burke with a substantial majority. He went on:

By the use of new and revolutionary techniques he has been able to get the time taken on preliminary work very substantially reduced so that actual construction work can begin much earlier than we originally thought would be possible.

It has not yet started, and Deputy O'Malley has now moved to the Department of Health where he is building hospitals, installing X-ray units and operating theatres at a rate which is no man's business. We have not seen them so far but they will all be there and we will get our share in the west of Ireland out of the £100,000 or the ½d in the £ of increased taxation. That all came under the heading: "Development of West to be a main objective."

I think this Budget is unreal. As I said about a similar Budget in 1957, when the £9 million for food subsidies was abolished, the only effect I can see it having—the ½d in the £ notwithstanding—is that in these western areas more houses will be closed and more families will go away. The job of the Minister for Education of replacing schools will be made less difficult because of the absence of pupils. If that is the kind of desolation and desertion of the west the Government want, they are likely to get it with the ½d in the £.

In facing this Budget, we must remember that there were three different periods here—this is the third—in which difficult situations had to be faced. The cure of the Fine Gael Minister for Finance for the difficulty was to cut the old age pensions from 10/- a week to 9/- a week, a reduction of 1/- a week or one-tenth of the pensioner's total income. Another Minister for Finance from that side of the House recently had a cure for a difficult situation and it was to put a tax on ladies' curling pins backed up, if you please, by a tax on toilet paper.

The necessaries of life.

The difference between the Fianna Fáil Government and the two inter-Party Governments which we have had in the past 20 years is that on each occasion as soon as the difficulty arose, the gentlemen opposite quietly walked out from under. I should like Deputy Lindsay to wait for a few minutes until I tell him about the West.

If the Deputy comes to it quickly.

I will come to it as quickly as I can. The difference is that this Government always stood their ground and tried to find a way out of the difficulty. They did not turn their backs on the country and say: "There it is for you. Find someone else to run it."

Deputy Lindsay was bothered about the west. I do not know exactly what we can do about the west. After all, when we were establishing the beet factories we put one in Tuam. The factory in Galway was supposed to function for the western area, but what happened? The people there did not grow beet. That was followed up by a potato factory in the same area. Last year the potato factory had to be supplied with potatoes from County Louth. There is a food-processing factory in Banagher. I wonder what is the present position in regard to that industry? I am taking things as I see them and things that meant an enormous change in the economy of other counties and other districts and what they meant here. I would like to make that comparison seriously and then come to see what they are to do.

I have a great liking for the people of the west. Every year my colleague here, Deputy Cronin, takes a ramble down to Deputy Lindsay's and Deputy O'Hara's constituency and collects there some 250 to 300 workers which we bring down every year to the Mallow factory and give them employment there with the farmers singling and harvesting beet. They are fine workers. I will say that for them. They see that they get better conditions, better terms and more humane treatment from the farmers of Cork and Waterford than they get in the trips to Britain Deputy Lindsay has been talking about. God helps those who help themselves. I would like to hear any Deputy from the west tell me the reason why the beet factory in Tuam is not functioning as it should and why the potato factory in Tuam is not functioning as it should? I would like them to tell me why the food-processing factory in Banagher is not functioning as it should, either?

There are two sides to every question. I am concerned, and a few more like me are concerned, more with our principal industry than with any other. Despite the percentage increases that everybody was supposed to have got, I find that you have practically come to a period in agriculture when you will have to go back to a ranching system altogether. You cannot blame the people. I do not blame the workers. I do not blame the worker or the farmer who finds that on a costing made up of £7 16s 0d a week, he has to go on strike to extract the equivalent of that from the subsidy paid to him. We had to go on strike last year to extract 5/3d a ton on beet from the Sugar Company. This year we were entitled to more but it was not forthcoming.

It was not there.

The result of the two manoeuvres is this. You have a reduction of roughly 20,000 acres of beet in the two years. That means a loss to the farmers in income of something like £1,700,000. It also means in our balance of payments here, in the import of foreign sugar, a pretty considerable amount also. It is roughly 30,000 tons of sugar. Those are the things I would like to have examined and corrected. You have, in addition to that, something like one million barrels of malting barley produced here every year. The price of that malting barley for the coming year is the same price as was fixed for it in 1948——

Hear, hear.

——in entirely different conditions. Is there any worker today who would accept the conditions he had in 1948? Still, we are rather surprised at the flight from the land as some of the opulent gentlemen stated. A penny on the pound of sugar on the £2,500 a year civil servant or on the £20 a week gent, the difference of that 30,000 tons of sugar, the impact of that on our balance of payments would have made a difference, but it was not forthcoming. Those are the matters I would like considered and threshed out. We have the position created today, as far as industry is concerned, that we are like the old lady in the song long ago, the woman of the three cows. You have Jack who thinks that his job is a special job and who thinks he should get 10/- a week.

(Cavan): Jack Lynch?

He then goes on strike for that money.

(Cavan): He does not know what is wrong.

Those things, every single one of them, are the cause of the bulk of our strike troubles and our industrial troubles today. You come along then and set out a wage of £7 16s. 0d. for the farmer, the farmer's son and the worker in the beet industry on the one side and you see the lad across the ditch who is working in industry on a five-day week. I do not blame the worker today who has been working for a number of years on the land who goes down to that little industry in Cobh which Deputy Fitzpatrick tried to sabotage.

(Cavan): How is it getting on at the moment? Not so well, I hear.

There are 1,200 men getting their livelihood from it down in Cobh.

(Cavan): I hear it is rocking.

That is the industry Deputy Fitzpatrick from Cavan and his Party tried to sabotage. They were not worried about emigration, they were not worried about unemployment. All they wanted was to wreck that industry. They did not keep their purpose underground, either. They came out in the open.

(Cavan): I hear the Deputy is worried about it.

Deputy Fitzpatrick from Cavan put it into his election address. He said his policy was to do away with frivolous industries like Verolme.

What about Dundalk?

(Cavan): What about Potez?

We had that sort of thing and we saw the result of it. We can still see the result. Fianna Fáil pulled up such industries and put them on a decent footing. One such industry had 450 to 500 men employed. Then we had three years of inter-Party Government and there were only 200 employed there.

(Cavan): How many were employed in Fords of Cork in 1932?

I saw the same situation develop elsewhere along the same line. I am glad to see Deputy Fitzpatrick in the House. His sabotage efforts in Rushbrooke succeeded in planting him in the front bench of the Fine Gael Party, and, mind you, that is hefty promotion for a lad like him.

(Cavan): I got rid of your friend, Mr. Dolan.

I do not wish to hear anything from Deputy L'Estrange. He has been hopping around here during the past 15 or 20 years trying to get himself into this House.

I was in the other House.

And in the end he succeeded in sabotaging an Old IRA man.

The Deputy had not much respect for the Old IRA man.

I have no respect for the Deputy.

Deputy Corry should be allowed to make his speech and would Deputy Corry please confine his remarks to the Budget?

If the children would be quiet——

Listen to grandma.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Corry must be allowed to make his speech.

If that imposition on the House over there would stay quiet, we could get on for another bit. I am sure you agree with me he is an imposition.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should not invite comment from the Chair or anyone else.

(Cavan): Will he tell us about the curlers and toilet paper?

He had a long run down from Cavan to Rushbrooke but he did his best.

I have only two regrets in regard to the Budget. One is that the Minister did not turn his attention to bingo. Even if he had got little out of it, he should have put his hand down heavily there. I do not believe in that kind of stuff in this country. We were told that the bingo in Dublin would suffer serious reverses during the dock strike because every card they used was imported from British printers. When a gambling crowd start along those lines in this country, there is only one cure for it—tax the devil out of them. I suggest also that the Minister should have increased dog licence fees. If he had done so, he would have taken away some of the worry from the Minister for Agriculture who now has to compel every fellow with a dog to get a collar and put his name on it. If the fee had been increased by 10/-, fewer collars would be needed. Two old men of the sea also worry me. One of them is the Civil Service. If the economy is to improve we must, by regulation, reduce the number of civil servants.

What about unemployment?

You tried before the election to get more and you had all the civil servants voting for you.

Acting Chairman

I should like to hear a little more about the Budget.

I am on the Budget. I should like to deal now with the transport situation. That is an old man of the sea that agriculture cannot carry on its back any longer. A state of affairs has developed in which a licence for the transport of goods in County Cork is worth between £1,000 and £1,500. The man who buys that licence must also pay for his lorry and rear a family on the profits. We give £2 million a year towards the upkeep of an inefficient, incompetent organisation. I had occasion this year as the person in charge of a factory to invite tenders for the cartage of the produce of 350 acres of peas. CIE tendered, the Cork Transport Company tendered at 15 per cent less and the tender of the East Cork Hauliers Association was ten per cent less than that. The question I must ask is whether we can afford to pay 25 per cent more for the haulage of our produce to the factory. It is a straight question and I want it answered. It is about time we called a halt to it.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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