asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce his attitude towards an expansion of trade with the Republic of South Africa, bearing in mind the racial policies of that country; and what instructions he has given or intends to give to Córas Tráchtála in relation to its dealings with the Republic of South Africa.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Trade with South Africa.
246.
The complete opposition of the Government to the racial policies of the Government of South Africa has been publicly declared on numerous occasions, and the Irish delegation at the United Nations has constantly supported condemnations by the General Assembly of South Africa's policy of apartheid and will continue to do so. The Security Council has not, however, decided on any economic sanctions on South Africa and, in the circumstances, it is not the Government's policy to interfere with the activities of individual Irish firms wishing to trade with South Africa or with the efforts of Córas Tráchtála to assist such firms. The embargo imposed by the Government in accordance with the Security Council resolutions in 1963 and 1964 on the sale and shipment of arms or military supplies to South Africa is, of course, still in force.
There is, I think, a distinction to be made here. While it is understandable that the Minister is unwilling, because of the hardship involved, to take steps actually to penalise trade with South Africa, surely he should not allow bodies under his aegis actually to go out of their way to promote such trade——
Does the Deputy want to put a question to the Minister?
It is a question. It is phrased interrogatively.
The Deputy seems to be making a statement.
Would the Minister not agree ....
Would the Minister not agree there is a distinction to be made here? Would he not agree it is one thing to allow trade and another thing actually to go out of one's way to promote it? Would he not agree that this is what Córas Tráchtála is doing at the moment? Would he not agree this is particularly unwise in view of the fact that South Africa vigorously discriminates against people on ethnic grounds and also in view of the fact that this Government is leading a campaign against discrimination of a similar kind in Northern Ireland? By encouraging trade with a discriminatory regime the Minister is weakening our case against discrimination of a similar kind in Northern Ireland.
I would not agree at all. As I have already explained, the Government's attitude, as exemplified at the United Nations at the moment and as it will continue to be exemplified in the future, is one of complete opposition to and condemnation of the policy of apartheid in South Africa. It has also been the Government's policy, however, in the United Nations to endeavour to make it as clear as possible that, if people are serious about this and want to do something about it, there is a provision in the Charter of the United Nations which can enable that something to be done. I refer to the provision under which the Security Council can order either total or partial economic sanctions. These are mandatory. The Irish Government has indicated that it wants this done and, if it is done, we will certainly support it. But we also believe that the passing of empty resolutions, which everyone knows will not be effective, is tending to undermine the position and the authority of the United Nations and doing nothing whatever to advance the cause of those who are against apartheid. Indeed, this attitude may be strengthening the existing dominance of the apartheid policy in South Africa. In this context it does not seem to me in any way realistic for us to adopt a policy which would result in our exporters and their workers losing out in order to give the business available to such countries as the United States of America, Britain, Russia and many other smaller nations. What is involved is not a question of principle. We know that, if we stand back, these other countries will take the business and nothing whatever will be gained for the benefit of the anti-apartheid policy. Our attitude is that, if the United Nations is prepared to take effective action, we will back it to the hilt. We have indicated that quite clearly. In the absence of effective action the situation is one of people merely going through what might be described as a very hypocritical process of pretending to be against this policy in order, perhaps, to induce more conscience-stricken people to stand back and let them take the business.
Would the Minister not agree that it is not necessary for the Security Council to take a decision for us to take the step, at least, of not promoting trade with South Africa? Surely we do not have to wait for the Security Council if we want to stop actually promoting trade.
This seems to be an argument, not a question.
I doubt if the Deputy is seriously suggesting that by not allowing Córas Tráchtála to encourage trade we would add one iota to anti-apartheid.
Is it not true that we are buying three to four times as much from South Africa as they are buying from us?
I am not sure of the ratio, but that could be so.