asked the Taoiseach whether, in view of recent disquieting developments in Northern Ireland, he will now impress on the British Government the urgency of restoring the system of proportional representation in order to secure some guarantee of minority representation in the area.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Situation.
1.
The question of introducing proportional representation in elections in Northern Ireland has been raised by interested parties both with the review body on local government reform and with the Crowther Commission which is empowered, inter alia, to consider such a suggestion. For the time being, the matter can be left in their hands.
Arising out of the Taoiseach's reply, in which he goes into the past history of this question, would the Taoiseach not agree that there have been recent developments in this matter which cast a new light of urgency on it and that it has been clearly shown that the operation of the straight vote in Northern Ireland is now conducive to the rise of Paisleyism and damaging to the emergence of more moderate elements; and would the Taoiseach not therefore think that something more modern is required from him than his reference to the past history of that question?
One cannot conclude definitely that the recent results of the elections are due only to the fact that they have a straight vote. Nobody can say definitely that the position would be different if proportional representation had been in existence there. There is the big difficulty that the straight vote is the system in operation throughout the United Kingdom for election to the British Parliament. Elections in Northern Ireland to the British Parliament would, I am sure, have to be carried out in that way as long as the straight vote existed in the United Kingdom, while the North of Ireland, in itself, has the straight vote and the right to determine whether the straight vote or other forms should be in operation for their own Stormont elections. In the long run, I think the Deputy will agree that, with the ghetto housing system that exists up there, the introduction of proportional representation would not have the kind of effects that I think he desires.
Further arising out of the Taoiseach's reply on this very important question, would the Taoiseach not agree that the proviso for proportional representation was originally inserted in the Government of Ireland Act by, of course, the British Parliament, itself elected on the straight vote, and was inserted as a safeguard for the minorities; and does the Taoiseach not feel that the minority in the north stand in urgent need of such safeguard as it can obtain; and will he please give further consideration to this question?
I can do that. I will readily concede that in the circumstances that exist, the type of housing allocations, et cetera, proportional representation would seem to give the minority there a fairer chance of representation. I admit that readily and I will look again to see. In the meantime I think it would be better to await the outcome of this independent commission and review body before any action need be taken.
May I make a further point——
Yes.
——addressed in part to you, Sir? Arising out of previous questions asked in this House on this subject of Northern Ireland I sought to have the matter raised on the Adjournment but you Sir, ruled—and I am not at all contesting your ruling— that this was too large and important a question to be dealt with simply on the Adjournment. I am sure we can all accept that but I should like, through you, to ask the Taoiseach now whether he will provide time for a debate on this subject. We feel a crisis is building up and it would be better to debate it here before the crisis rather than after the crisis, as last year.
Judging from the amount of detail in the Taoiseach's reply, is the House to assume that the Taoiseach is converted to the proportional representation system?
That is a separate question.
It is a relevant question because if the Taoiseach does not believe in the proportional representation system for this country surely he cannot make representations to have that system imposed on another country and all the discussion we have had up to the present would be completely fanciful?
The people have decided very definitely in favour of retaining the system of proportional representation here. Naturally, we accept it. There is no great virtue in that. We have no alternative. We have not done badly by it either.
Would the Taoiseach agree that this Assembly has some function in leading public opinion in this part of the country in this very important matter and would he agree that it is opportune now that this House should have a discussion on the matter and would he therefore indicate his willingness to make time for a debate on the North of Ireland?
I am not sure that it is opportune now and I will not give an indication of my mind as to whether we should have a debate or not at this stage.
In view of the statements of many leading public men in the North of Ireland favouring the system of proportional representation, indicating that it would give fairer representation in Parliament as to the feelings of the people there, would the Taoiseach not make known to the British authorities his feeling and that of the Government that we on this side of the Border favour proportional representation as a system of election to Stormont?
I think the move to establish proportional representation would come better from the people who are involved rather than from us down here—the many people to whom the Deputy has referred, who have made statements to the effect that proportional representation would serve the interests of the minorities better up there. These statements and these recommendations would be far more effective than coming from me.
Further arising——
We cannot discuss this question all evening. There are 75 questions.
There is very strong feeling that this is an important matter that we should be able to discuss and I think I ought to be allowed to express that here, with respect to yourself and to the Taoiseach. Did I rightly understand the Taoiseach to say that he will not give time for discussion in this House of probably the most important range of problems facing this island now?
I replied to a number of supplementaries, including one from Deputy O'Leary, in which he asked whether I thought the time was opportune. I said in reply that I did not think it was opportune and that I would not indicate the trend of my mind as to whether or not we should have a debate at this stage. We did have a debate on the general issue and may I remind the House that we all agree that re-unification of the country is the solution we all want, when every citizen's rights will be guaranteed under our Constitution as they are down here?
I am afraid that statement is no substitute for a free debate in the House.
Would the Taoiseach agree that even on the evidence——
I am calling Question No. 2. We cannot debate this one question all evening.
Even the Taoiseach's own Ministers show their eagerness to talk about this matter outside the House.