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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 Jun 1970

Vol. 247 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 40: Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £23,555,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Industry and Commerce.)

The prospects for increased employment and increased production this year do not look too good at present. The projections of growth for 1970 are down on the growth projections for 1969. Quite apart from any political crisis there may be in the country at present there is a crisis in industry as a whole because of increasing competition and this summer, when we will have another reduction in the tariffs between our goods and those of Britain, there will be that much keener competition on our home market.

I have already pointed out that a serious situation faces us on the so-called home market. There is a great increase in the amount of imported confectionery of all kinds, biscuits and cheese, with the result that comparable Irish goods are not being purchased in the same volume. If one looks at the figures for biscuits, cakes and confectionery between 1967 and 1969 there has been an increase of 147 per cent in imports. The main component of this increase is in the biscuit field. In many of our supermarkets at present it is easier to buy English biscuits than the comparable Irish article. There is a fantastic and phenomenal increase in the sale of these goods. It is more than a coincidence that many of these supermarkets have already fallen under the control of British parent firms. I think of the supermarket chain, Powers, and their association with Associated British Foods. They are, in co-operation with these agencies in England, intensifying their attacks on our home market.

The Minister had some pious platitudes in his speech about his desire to see small retail outlets increased. He said he desired to see them fostered and rendered more efficient. The plain statistical facts are that these small retail outlets are being swallowed up by the large supermarket chains and that an appreciable element is controlled by Britain. This means that the home market is being steadily taken over by British agencies. Similarly, in imported clothing and footwear on the home market there has been an increase of 123 per cent between 1967 and 1969. All of these increases are directly attributable to the effects of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. We can prove in pounds, shillings and pence that the increases are directly related to the manner in which our tariffs have gone down summer by summer. We can say with absolute certainty that, after the further tariff reduction this summer, these imports will have increased commensurately by this time next year. There has been an increase too in imports of agricultural machinery, notably tractors. Admittedly we cannot manufacture our own tractors but it is regrettable in relation to a great deal of the other machinery necessary for agriculture and industry that we evidently cannot make any arrangements to manufacture or provide this at home. There has been an increase of 80 per cent in imports of agricultural machinery between 1967 and 1969.

All these storm signals for our home market must be studied with great care by the Government if they are interested in these things any longer. It means that this so-called secure home market is more and more under siege by competitors abroad. Without ever going into the EEC the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement contains all the ingredients for a massive onslaught on our home market. Without ever invoking the Treaty of Rome this Government, by their participation in the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, have put in jeopardy the jobs of thousands of Irish people. Therefore, in those areas where there has been a great penetration by British interests we should seek a review of the effects of this agreement. Most certainly we should cast a cold eye over the entire operation of this agreement because, whatever may have been said at the outset about its benefits and advantages to this country, since its inception it apparently means that the British partner in the agreement has gone ahead and done exactly as he saw fit to suit his particular condition at any time.

It is true that there was an increase in jobs in 1969 but in our projections of job creation we have constantly underestimated the number of people leaving agriculture. Each year the number of young people leaving agriculture —and they are mainly young people— has exceeded the projection made the year before. Each year the number leaving agriculture has been in excess of the number estimated by 4,000, 5,000 or 6,000 people. We must revise our expectations of the number of people leaving agriculture over the next few years. In each year the number leaving will exceed the official numbers we have had up to now by 4,000 or 5,000 people. This is one of the reasons why we are not creating any new opportunities for the population as a whole. Last year the number of new jobs created in industry roughly equalled the number of people leaving agriculture, so that we are tending to maintain a stationary position in the matter of jobs. We are not making any notable advance. We are merely cancelling out the losses in agriculture by the number of new jobs we create each year in industry.

It may be all right for the Minister to say that he is in favour of small firms, small distribution agencies, continuing. The cold facts suggest that the foreign competition, the larger grouping in supermarkets, is steadily making life impossible for the small shopkeeper. In fact, the real effects of Government policy must mean the ending of the small shop era. This, I am afraid, is rapidly becoming a fact up and down the country. I do not know what the turnover of the average small shopkeeper is. We hear a lot about the claims of different interests in our community—farmers, urban workers and so on—for an agreed annual increase in their income, but I would say that a number of small shopkeepers must be living on less than £9 or £10 a week. They may have a large turnover but many of them must be earning no more than this per week for much longer hours than any other element in the community.

There is an unfavourable trend in the new industries we are getting and I do not know what the answer to it is. The equation between the capital we are putting into it and the number of people who will be employed seems to be becoming more and more chaotic and out of balance. For the Pfizer plant in County Cork, with a suggested capital of £8 million, we will get 350 jobs. This is a very high price for new jobs created. For the BASF factory proposal, for a suggested capital of £20 million, we are getting 700 new jobs. It is true that in many of these cases if these firms link up with existing firms and if, for example, in that southern area we are planning to establish a chain of chemical industries, it may be considered worthwhile. But we must remember that, where capital investment of £8 million to a foreign industry is involved, then the Irish taxpayer is paying many millions into that investment and, consequently, less money is available for starting industry in other parts of the country. The positive side of such investment is the employment it creates, but it must mean also that our scarce capital is rendered that much more scarce and cannot be spread around. Certainly the equation of £8 million for 350 jobs requires much argument before it can be accepted. I hope the Minister has indulged in this kind of argument. We must subject each new investment of this size to the most stringent criteria to ensure that the capital we have available is used to the best possible effect.

Everything we say or do is affected by our application to join the EEC. There is enough fissionable material in the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement to explode any possibilities we have of building up an independent home market and thereby creating more jobs. The EEC will be the challenge of all challenges if we are forced to join it. The Government's White Paper on the EEC states it is necessary to face up to the fact that membership of the EEC would pose problems, possibly of a serious nature, for some sectors of industry as well as for individual firms.

We must know what negotiating terms the Government propose in their application for membership and what remedial action they propose to take to ensure that jobs are made secure. We cannot simply leave this to the good will of the Confederation of Irish Industries, the Federated Union of Employers or even to the Government itself; there must be total co-operation of all those involved in providing jobs.

Every Minister for Industry and Commerce, and the present Minister is no exception, in his Estimate speech has admitted that certain firms have not adapted as rapidly as desired. The present Minister has admitted that certain sectors of industry do not seem to be concerned that the outcome of our entry to the EEC may be to diminish the number of jobs and close many firms. The Government cannot ignore this attitude any longer. We can count as lost all the jobs provided at present by firms who have not adapted or have not shown any interest in competing in an open European market. The Government must take emergency action, if they are serious about saving jobs and ensuring that the mental attitudes—which the Minister has stressed are so important in the face of free trade—of managements controlling these firms are changed, and must consider removing the aids, grants and tax concessions from those firms because the criminal neglect of the future of their employees calls for such stern action. I realise this course of action is unorthodox but in cases where firms are not co-operating or preparing for entry into a free trade area I think it is necessary. It is not sufficient that year after year we should come in here and bewail the fact that so many firms are not interested in making these necessary preparations. We must take stern action.

It is true that any enlarged market area will give us further export opportunities but what has influenced this party's attitude to the possibilities of free trade and what has made us oppose the measures suggested so far has been our realisation that we have a low level of development. We are not in the same category as our future partners. Industry in member countries is far better developed than ours and these countries are in a far better position to take advantage of any large marketing area. We require a different relationship with any free trade area than these countries would. We need a particular relationship to suit our under-developed conditions.

If we are to take advantage of this large export area which may be opened up to us in any future arrangement our preparation must not be confined to physical adaptation of plant and so on. The amount we spend on research in industry is pitiful by international standards. If we are to take advantage of these newly opened export markets we must devote a greater amount of cash to research.

Marketing itself is at a very early stage of development here. It is doubtful if management is convinced about the importance of marketing techniques. The development of a proper marketing technique calls for research of the product and development in selling. Such facilities are employed by many firms in Europe but our small unit size means that these areas are purely of academic interest. Proper attention to market production, development and so on is essential if we are to take advantage of these new export markets. Many home produced goods are losing their place on the home market to foreign produced goods and this is probably due to our poor command of design. Clothing and footwear imports amounted to nearly £5 million in 1967 and to £11 million in 1969. There are many firms engaged in manufacturing clothing and footwear here but I think these import figures are attributable to the lack of design and lack of style of our goods. The Kilkenny Design Workshop is doing an admirable job in this field but a great deal more needs to be done especially in the clothing and footwear lines where style is the important factor. What chance have Irish goods abroad if people here refuse to buy them to the tune of £11 million in spite of the fact that there is a very high duty on all goods imported from Europe?

These are some of the problems that Government reports talk about when they say we have encountered X problems and we are considering Y of them and we shall be issuing a further report in due course. This official manner of brushing away real problems is at this moment a luxury we can ill afford. That is a startling increase in the volume of imports in this particular area and does not give us much encouragement as to our capability of withstanding the keen competition that faces us in the future.

It has not been all a case of lack of progress and dismal failure; there has been some initiative on the part of Irish firms and it must be hailed and welcomed and, if possible, improved. The initiative of the eight leading sweet or candy manufacturers—as they now call themselves—and the Sugar Company in an effort to open up a new export market to the United States must be hailed. This is the kind of thing we want. If our small firms are on unit size too small, co-operation is no longer a luxury. Individualism in industry will not pay in future. We must have more co-operation and we must have the Department of Industry and Commerce itself initiating merger talks between companies. No longer should they be content to turn up when the mergers take place, to cut tapes and act as bystanders. Through the IDA and other specialised agencies the Department must enter into the merger area, bring about the merger of Irish firms working in the one industry and tell these firms that their safety in future depends on their co-operation now and that now is the time for them to get together to withstand future competition.

What we have been saying in the wilderness for years past about the necessity for the State itself to make a positive approach in the matter of industrial investment and to involve itself in the creation of new industry, we can now see will be ever more necessary in the future. Those Deputies in every part of the House who have been calling for our involvement in the EEC or in the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement must now realise that in order to defend the taxpayers' investment in the country the State itself must take far greater responsibility for ensuring that employment and economic control can be maintained to the greatest degree possible in Irish hands in the future. The State itself must initiate mergers and take part in the decision-making in Irish industry at present to a far greater extent than in the past.

There has been a merger between Carrolls, UDI and Waterford Glass and that is a very welcome development also but there are too few examples in Irish industry of this kind of merger to face the dangerous future. Too many firms are apparently still refusing to go ahead with adaptation and so on and I have suggested certain remedies should they continue in that attitude.

Admittedly, it is only a minority of firms but I noticed last week in a report of, I think, the women's outer garment industry that at least five firms—I shall not mention names; some of them were Dublin firms—had received grants but had refused to fill in a questionnaire to tell the Department concerned with the report exactly how their adaptation was proceeding. They could take the taxpayers' money but would not answer the Government's questions. This kind of approach in Irish industry must be ended because if any Government is to negotiate for proper conditions in the EEC it is essential that they should know the true position in Irish industry. If Irish firms consider that they can continue on a Sinn Féin course of refusing to give any information to the Government about their adaptation and preparedness at this time they must be disillusioned because they are not playing the game. They receive taxpayers' money but will not answer the taxpayers' representative when he asks them how the money was spent and what are their plans for the coming year. I read in that report of at least five or six firms who refused to answer the questionnaire. All of us must complete income tax forms as individuals each year and we are heavily penalised if we do not. I think we must also consider penalties for those firms which take money and refuse to answer the questions they are asked.

Hear, hear.

We all welcomed the changes in the IDA, which were very important, giving greater flexibility to this State agency. We now have shareholding powers in the IDA and in the legislation setting it up we have stressed the whole idea of linkage. In our report on grant-aided industry printed in 1967 reference was made to this lack of any concept of linkage in the way we gave grants to industries. Now at least this concept is acknowledged in the legislation setting up the IDA. Whether the IDA is at present sufficiently well staffed to live up to the expectations of the legislation is another matter. I do not know sufficient about its staffing arrangements at present but certainly some of the mistakes made by that body's predecessor in the past are directly attributable to the lack of specialised staff and the loss of some of the taxpayers' money can be attributed to the same failure and lack in that State agency.

The Devlin Report talked about the necessity of linking it up with the foreign service. As a small country the primary aims of our foreign service must be to win new markets, new trading partners, new export markets. We should bring under the one roof the activities of the IDA, Córas Tráchtála and the Credit Corporation. After all, the initial contact abroad, the research at home and the eventual establishment of the firm are inter-related activities. Some years ago I had occasion here to criticise the kind of diplomat who was ludicrous in our circumstances, the diplomat who considered trade a dirty word. I think there is a different approach today and that all our embassies are alive to the necessity of winning trade for this country. Perhaps some consideration could be given to a link-up between these activities, the foreign service and the industrial and State agencies at home because there is a great deal of work to be done in securing foreign markets.

It is tragic to travel around the USA and find in their supermarkets goods of every country, from Lapland to Finland, and find no Irish cheese. It is also tragic to find, as I was told when I was in the US, that Irish people could find Polish ham on sale at the corner shop but no word of any similar Irish product. Admittedly, last year the Poles were getting rid of a glut and were, in fact, dumping their ham. Still it is true that in many of these countries with which we have maintained a traditional friendship and where there is a large number of Irish people with a great deal of goodwill towards our products, in some cases seemingly, if properly developed a more faithful grouping of purchases could result than we are likely to meet in any of the European countries in the future.

It is tragic that so many of the states of the USA have so few Irish products on display. There is no easy answer to this, I agree, but there is a great deal to be said for sending more men into that field and paying them according to the initiative they display and the amount of business they open up. There is no such things as a nine to five job in this area and I would be quite prepared to pay a State servant or anybody else on results in winning new markets. The sky should be the limit for the salary of the CTT official abroad who opens up a valuable new market and on whose initiative the contacts were made. There need be no ceiling to such a person's salary. I believe also that the reverse holds, that those who are not making valuable contacts or gaining results abroad should have their terms of service reconsidered and be brought back home. Winning new markets means new jobs at home, more prosperity, raising incomes at home and achieving the targets we have not achieved in the matter of employment.

I was very much impressed by the work of CTT in New York and other parts of the United States. I was also convinced that our own foreign service in the United States is considerably undermanned. We have dedicated officials working in drab offices which could not have impressed many callers and certainly would not have enticed any industrialists to set up a firm in the home country. A great deal more work needs to be done. There have been many well-publicised trips abroad by Ministers for Industry and Commerce. As the Minister knows, his predecessor had a veritable passion for being abroad and he travelled to the Middle East, the United States and Australia. I do not know which country had his attentions most of the time, but I would prefer to see more working trips abroad by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, less palaver with officials and more searching questions to find out what exactly has been achieved in each area.

If every other country on the face of the earth can sell its products or even a portion of its products in places like the United States, there is something wrong if we cannot do it. Admittedly, there are quota restrictions and all sorts of inbuilt prejudices in the American Government; it is quite astonishing to find our own people here so deluged with propaganda about free trade, but the United States Government are not so taken with it: free trade when it suits American businessmen but restrictive practices when they are affected by exports from abroad. Of course, this is a sensible attitude on the part of any country but we are seemingly converts all the way in the matter of free trade. We have to go along with it, but we have not the amount of muscle that the Americans or other large industrial countries can command. More must be done in those markets where at least we have some emotional ties among certain sections of the population. More must be done to exploit those sentimental ties than is being done at present. If we cannot export to those markets then our prospects when we join the EEC will be very poor. All along we have been saying that there has been a great deal of moonshine talked about EEC possibilities. With a stronger industrial foundation I would not have seen any objection to participation in the EEC, but knowing as I do, to some extent at any rate, the weakness of most of our industry, I have very great fears about our prospects of surviving in that area. So far I do not see the same reaction to this state of affairs evident in the Government benches. Rather we see a state of total confidence and unflappability. This is all very well but when the storm breaks I hope we shall not discover that this confidence on the part of the Government was misplaced.

The IDA should be asked to give us without delay some facts consequent on our membership of the EEC. There should be a review as soon as possible of some of those firms which will be vulnerable to foreign takeover when we join the EEC, because this will undoubtedly follow. There will be a great spate of takeover bids and many old firms will go to the wall. It may be that we shall see a decision by those foreign firms which have established Irish subsidiaries to close down the independent operation of the Irish subsidiary and to turn it into a packaging unit to pass out the products of the foreign firm. Certainly an examination is needed by the IDA of those areas of Irish industry which may prove to be particularly vulnerable to takeover and merger with all the consequences this may have for the employees of such firms.

There must be a positive approach in regard to mergers. The State and the merging firms should engage in a joint venture, a partnership. In this connection one could imagine the seconding of appropriate officials from the IDA and other State agencies where there are such specialised people. I noted that the spokesman for Industry and Commerce of the Fine Gael Party did not think a great deal of opening up markets in eastern Europe. He spoke about relying on the British market.

No, western Europe and the British market.

I believe that no political boundaries should curtail our trading activities. It does not occur in the case of other countries whose Christianity or other religious belief may be as sincere as ours. It is wrong that any political reason should prevent us from trading wherever trading is possible. Perhaps Deputy Donegan did not mean this. He referred to the tough negotiations one encounters with such countries. I agree with him. Most of these countries engage in very tough bargaining, but our target should be the diversification of our markets. It is a geographical fact that the British market will always be our most important one, but we must diversify our markets as much as possible. It would be foolish to allow the prospect of tough bargaining or any political consideration to prevent us from opening up new markets. We in this country have matured sufficiently to recognise that trading with a country does not necessarily mean approving of its political system. Whatever our politics are, trade with other countries is as essential as the air we breathe.

Employment will be down this year. There will not be the same growth in production. There will be keener competition from Britain this year after the tariff cut. The Quarterly Survey of the Federation of Irish Industries for March, 1970, suggests that our sales might have been increasing at a slower rate than in the previous quarter. They suggest there has been a general slowing down in the increase in both production and home sales. That means, of course, that 1970 will not be a remarkable year for growth, for new jobs, and that the problem we face this year will be very serious

I would mention the problem of mounting prices. We have not yet got the quarterly reports for May but the indication from consumers in the shops is that the price increases which the Irish public are facing are far in excess of the taxation increases in the Budget. This means that the entire cost-of-living index will jump sharply. When we have the figures we will be able to confirm this, but pressure must commence all round, in the total confusion that now reigns, for more wage increases this year. There are already problems about wage costs, and what the answer to this confused situation is I do not know. It is a very big problem.

Of course we are reaping in 1970 the effects of so many years of lack of decision on incomes planning and it seems this will be the year which will catch us, which will catch the Government out for their lack of planning, their lack of decision. I do not think we can count this year on the rate of capital inflow we had last year. I doubt it. That, of course, has been one of the things that has prevented our balance of payments going totally crazy. Whether we can count on it this year is, as I have said, highly problematical.

We come back, then, to the old problem of the whole balance of payments situation. According as gross national production goes up, according as we get more capital investment in industry, according as we get more industries, we have the tragic dilemma for a country attempting to right its balance of payments that we can talk about the balance of payments situation being affected that much more grievously because most of the machinery for industry has to be imported. I give the example of the Cork firm. A comparable British firm can be seen to give benefits right through the economy, whereas we can see here that the import of machinery for the setting up of a large industry will hit grievously at our balance of payments. The reason a comparable British investment in an industry spreads prosperity throughout the economy is that they have a large industrial base, a better industrial infrastructure than we have.

Our comparable infrastructure should be agriculture, but here we have had the horrible situation where the food industry, and the industries associated with it based on our agriculture, is falling increasingly into the hands of foreigners. The only industry native to this country, the one from which new investment might be seen to have a multiplier effect throughout the economy, is being taken over by large British combines.

Therefore, the maintaining of independence in the years ahead will call for a strategy which this Government are incapable of having, for an awareness which this Government have shown themselves to be incapable of having. This independence in the years ahead, the kind of independence that will allow control to remain over certain of our economic decisions, is something to which the Government have shown themselves to be insensitive. They have shown themselves to be unimpressed by the necessity to have that independence. The food industry more and more becomes a prey to foreign investment and the prospect is that the main momentum of future industrial development in this country will come from capital inflow from abroad. That is a very precarious basis on which to plan industrial development.

The year 1970 is the one in which the Department of Industry and Commerce especially will come under strain. The Department must endeavour, first of all, to incorporate the various State agencies, bodies like the IDA, the CTT and others, into industrial planning for the future. Whatever our political ideologies, it is clear that in free trade conditions it is necessary that the State be utilised fully to preserve our independence. In economic decision-making, the State must become the main prow of any advance we make in providing employment, and for that purpose I suggest that the Minister should encourage the more rapid merger of particular firms, the State itself going into partnership in those firms, on their boards, to provide for a greater say by the taxpayer in the affairs of firms on which taxpayers' money has been spent.

In the area of industrial advance, in the area of more employment, of maintaining economic independence, it becomes essential that the State should not stand idly by. This Department in the past has played the role of a referee in the matter of industrial development—a referee who provided the funds and did not ask questions, a referee who was satisfied with the reports and passed benign comments on them. This role is not any longer sufficient. I do not know whether our plea will fall on deaf ears but I emphasise the necessity for the Department of Industry and Commerce to depart from this role of a referee and to use the specialised agencies available to it in the development of industry and in the provision and the maintenance of employment.

I want to say at the outset that I fully agree with the observations of my colleague, Deputy Donegan, when he said he regretted that the Minister did not avail himself of the opportunity presented by the debate on this Estimate to outline the possibilities for Irish industry in the European Economic Community. Although I accept that a full-scale debate on EEC membership will take place in the near future, because he has come to the Department recently I think the Minister might have availed of this opportunity to throw some light on the problems confronting Irish industry if we become members of the EEC.

There is no doubt that fears have been expressed in certain sectors of our manufacturing industry about the likely consequences of EEC membership. I do not claim to be an expert on it and when he is replying, perhaps, the Minister will let us know his own views, let us know what he thinks the possibilities and the problems will be for Irish industry when we become members of the EEC.

Deputy Donegan dealt in great detail with every aspect of the Department of Industry and Commerce. I want to pick out a few aspects of the work of the Department which have not been adverted to so far by any speaker. In regard to the small industries division of the Department the Minister's predecessor, a short time before the Government crisis which led to the changing of Ministries, announced that he was proposing to change the definition of "small industry". Up to this a small industry was one which employed up to a maximum of 20 people and anybody with a proposal or an idea for the establishment of such an industry was referred to the small industries division of the Industrial Development Authority. The Minister's predecessor announced that it was proposed to change the figure and to apply the definition "small industry" to any industry employing 50 or under. The Minister did not refer to this matter when he was introducing his Estimate. I have been extremely interested in the progress of the small industries division and on many occasions here I have spoken in support of their aims and objectives. I have had personal contact with the officials of the division in Dublin and also with some of the field men who are sent to investigate proposals and I must say they are a band of very dedicated men. They more or less started from scratch, because there was no precedent for such an agency here to encourage the establishment of small industries. I have been very impressed by the progress they have made.

The idea of confining the functions of the small industries division to industries which did not employ more than 20 was rather restrictive. I presume there are strong arguments in favour of designating any industry with an employment content of up to 50 as a small industry. I want the Minister to throw some light on this matter in view of the trend towards regionalisation. It is only a short time ago since we had a debate here on a Bill to extend the functions of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company which, in fact, brought into existence for the first time the first regional organisation in this country and I should like to know from the Minister what his intentions are in regard to the future role of the small industries division. Irrespective of whether or not we enter the EEC, and no matter what the trend may be, there is a special place for an agency such as the small industries division. It is worth nothing that even in the most highly advanced and most highly industrialised countries, such as the United States of America, Britain, Germany and, indeed, in most countries in western Europe, there are official agencies specifically charged with promoting the establishment of small industries.

When one looks at the employment content of industry in the USA or on the Continent of Europe, one very remarkable thing emerges and that is the proportion of people employed in very small industries. There is a tremendous scope for the development of small industries particularly of the craft type of industry. In Germany there is an organisation which was set up specially to promote craft industries. There is in this country a large amount of latent skill which has been inherited over several generations in various families. An example of highly skilled craft work which springs to mind, particularly to one coming from Limerick, is the traditional craft of producing Limerick lace. It is a well-known fact that we have had the experience in the Limerick region, and particularly in the duty free shop at Shannon, of having had a tremendous number of inquiries for this type of product. Due to the high labour content and the long period of training which is necessary to produce a product like Limerick lace, the demand for the product has considerably exceeded the supply for quite a time. Limerick lace is produced by the Good Shepherd nuns in Limerick. I understand that the possibility of streamlining the production of Limerick lace and of having a special factory set up to produce it was investigated. One potential industrialist who investigated the possibility of producing Limerick lace commercially informed me that this particular type of skill or craft does not lend itself to mass production of the lace.

There is a tremendous scope for the small industry, the craft industry, or the cottage industry, as it is often popularly called. Since the establishment of the small industries division five or six years ago new ground has been broken and the division have done a tremendous job of work, but the time is opportune now when the whole approach to the development of small industries and the encouragement of craft industries and so forth might be reviewed with a view to streamlining the whole operation. In the course of my inquiries into the production and marketing of these types of products I found that in a household or in a family there will be someone who has a natural ability for, say, woodcarving or something like that, and somewhere else there will be someone who is doing crochet work or some other type of work, and the problem is that while these people can produce the goods they do not know how to market them or sell them. There is a great need for some special type of marketing organistation, perhaps, within Córas Tráchtála. There is need for a specialised unit which would engage in marketing the products of small craft industries; perhaps it might be a unit in Córas Tráchtála similar to the small industries division of the IDA.

There is one outstanding example of considerable progress having been made in marketing the products of cottage industries in the west of Ireland. I refer to the Slieve Bawn Co-operative which I understand is situated on the border of County Roscommon and County Mayo. What has happened in this case is an interesting example of the application of the principles of co-operation to the marketing of manufactured products. The first step taken in this instance was to encourage people who had the talent and skill to produce these goods. When the goods were produced they were taken to a special depot and a separate organisation looked for, and supplied, the markets for the products. It is not of much use to encourage a man to produce goods unless an effort is made to find a market for the products. I am not satisfied with existing marketing arrangements and this applies in particular to the export market for craft work. The Minister comes from a rural area and I am sure he knows of people who have the necessary talent and skill to produce high-quality goods. There is a demand but the marketing aspect needs to be reviewed.

A matter which has been referred to on several occasions in this House, and Deputy Donegan mentioned it recently, is the present system operated by Irish Steel Holdings for purchasing scrap steel. I have no personal axe to grind in this matter—it does not concern my constituency except perhaps in a minor way—but from a study of the subject in the last week it appears to me that nothing short of a racket is operating here. The prices paid by Irish Steel Holdings for scrap steel range from an average of £4 15s per ton for lots of up to 5,000 tons to £8 11s 6d for lots over 18,000 tons. This means that the large concern receives nearly double the amount the small businessman will get.

It is difficult to understand the reasoning behind this. One explanation given to me was that Irish Steel Holdings must ensure that its production is kept at a maximum and the best way of ensuring an adequate supply of raw material is to encourage the large concerns to go into the business. I understand one company is supplying the bulk of the scrap steel delivered to Haulbowline every year and that the managing director of that concern is also a director of Irish Steel Holdings: the private commercial firm is Hammond Lane Limited.

There is also another aspect of this matter. CIE supplies all of its scrap steel to Haulbowline and I am told the average price is £6 per ton. It would appear that in addition to subsidising CIE, the taxpayers are indirectly subsidising Irish Steel Holdings. I cannot see any justification for having such a wide differential in prices; 15 different prices are listed in the quoted prices for scrap steel ranging from £4 15s per ton for lots of up to 5,000 tons to £8 11s 6d for lots in excess of 18,000 tons.

The small scrap merchant who perhaps delivers 500 tons in the course of a year to Irish Steel holdings is entitled to the same price as that given to the larger concern. I have no personal involvement in this matter but it appears to me from submissions made to me and from my inquiries that the whole question of the purchase of scrap steel by Irish Steel Holdings warrants an inquiry. I appeal to the Minister to look into this matter with a view to having this outrageous situation remedied. It infringes every basic concept of fair play that this large monopoly, whose managing director is also a director of Irish Steel Holdings, should have a monopoly of the scrap steel industry of this country while the unfortunate small man trying to make a livelihood is being victimised and treated most unfairly. Perhaps the Minister, since Deputy Donegan mentioned this, has looked into it. I want to tell him that I intend to pursue this matter and I intend to raise it at Question Time with a view to having an inquiry into it and having a rational price system introduced so that fair play will be given to every person engaged in the scrap steel business.

I should like to refer to the establishment of industrial estates. In the recent debate regarding the extension of the functions of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company to Limerick, Clare and North Tipperary, reference was made to the Shannon industrial estate and to the fact that an industrial estate is being established at Limerick. There is no doubt that the setting up of industrial estates and the building of advance factories in particular— whether these advance factories are provided in single units or in groups within an industrial estate—are necessary prerequisites for the attraction of industry. There is every advantage in having an advance factory ready for occupation. In many cases in the past, particularly where foreign industrialists were examining the possibilities of a certain location, because of the fact that the infrastructure did not exist there was between the time of the first inquiry and the time when the industry was ready to go into production a time lag of two years and more. Where there are advance factories ready for occupation there is minimum delay between the first inquiry and the time the factory can go into production.

On the occasion of the last debate on the Estimate for this Department the Minister's predecessor said in reply to a point I made that he did not intend to have advance factories sprouting like mushrooms all over the country. I accept this but, certainly, if certain towns are to be designated as growth towns it is essential that advance factory buildings should be provided.

There is another aspect of this which I have been reading about of late. Perhaps when the Minister is replying he would throw some light on it. I understand that in certain areas it is intended to provide demountable, prefabricated industrial buildings. This, I believe, applies in the case of small industries. A building can be erected in a certain town and if, after a period of time, it is not needed it can be demounted and reconstructed in another area. This term "demountable, prefabricated industrial building" is coming into the news of late. I should like if the Minister would explain what exactly is meant by this and for what purposes such buildings are to be established.

I have already said that the setting up of industrial estates and the provision of advance factories and the necessary infrastructure are prerequisites for the development of industry. There is one problem which is beginning to come to light in recent times. It is the absence of a proper manpower policy, the absence of surveys into the manpower available in certain regions, A manpower policy and employment surveys are absolutely necessary. I understand there is a shortage of manpower and of qualified personnel to undertake these surveys. I have read the report of the Waterford Industrial Survey and was very impressed by it. The pilot survey carried out in Drogheda, in Deputy Donegan's constituency, is also worthy of mention. This was carried out by the Economics Department of UCD.

Some months ago I was approached by certain commercial interests in my constituency and asked to investigate the possibility of obtaining assistance for a manpower survey in the area. I found there was a serious shortage of persons qualified to undertake this work. Industrialists coming in here from abroad are particularly concerned about the prospective availability of manpower. There is also the situation arising that in certain areas there is a serious shortage of certain types of skilled labour. In the Limerick/Shannon region at present there is a shortage of female labour. One industrialist who came into Limerick, anxious to set up a manufacturing enterprise there in which 66 per cent of the employment would be for women, was advised to go away from the Limerick/Shannon region as there was a shortage of suitably qualified female workers in the area. This is a serious problem. It is of vital importance that when foreign industrialists are being encouraged and persuaded to come in here and certain locations are recommended to them all this scientific and technical data should be made available. I am particularly conscious of the absence of statistical information on the availability of workers and particularly on the availability in future of certain types of workers.

I have just realised, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that the question of manpower policy does not come within the scope of the Minister's Department. If I have infringed the rules I apologise. My intention was to point out to the Minister the implications in the absence of a manpower policy from the point of view of industrial development, for which the Minister is responsible.

Finally, I should like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to the Department. While I realise that his stay there will be very short, I sincerely hope it will be very happy.

I am particularly glad to see an additional £3½ million being made available to the Industrial Development Authority in the current financial year. The authority is doing an excellent job and it is only right that the moneys made available to it should be increased as and when we can afford to increase them.

In the rural areas we should concentrate more and more on small industries. We should encourage local people to start thinking for themselves in terms of the type of industry which would thrive best in their particular area and we should find out from them what ideas they have for the development of the local village or local town. In every town and village there should be a local development association, the primary objective of which should be to acquire a site which would be available should some suitable industry offer for the area. The provision of sites would attract industrialists. With the increasing value of land and the fall in the value of money people could not lose out on an investment like this. Money spent on sites would be money well spent. I would approve of the erection of factories in the larger towns of 1,000 or more population. Perhaps the Minister would consider giving a grant to enable people to purchase sites. The money would be well secured having regard to the value of property. The local development associations should consider industries based on local raw material, such as fish, wool, timber and agricultural products. I am particularly concerned about the quantity of foreign goods for sale here, particularly in the footwear and clothing trade.

Hear, hear.

It is difficult to find out the real reason for these imports. I think there may be a greater margin of profit in the retailing of foreign clothing and foreign footwear. I may be wrong in that, but it is something that should be investigated. Far too many businesses are too keen to push foreign goods. There is something wrong in this. The profit margin may be the primary consideration here. Deputy Michael O'Leary said he thought it was a question of style; I doubt that very much. It is probably a question of profit. The time has come when another intensive Buy Irish campaign should be launched. An all-out effort should be made to encourage retailers to display Irish goods and to encourage customers to buy them.

I should like to refer to the role of county development teams in the development of industry in the different counties. These teams are doing excellent work. The Kerry team has almost completed a survey on manpower. The team worked on this for the past 18 months and covered practically every parish in the county. It is now in a position to tell any industrialist what the manpower prospect is in any particular district and forecast what the position will be for quite a number of years ahead. Every encouragement should be given to these teams to complete these surveys as quickly as possible. Every encouragement should also be given to industrialists to move away from the larger centres of population out into the provincial towns. Even if it is necessary to subsidise the cost of transporting the raw materials into these towns and the finished article out of them that would be money well spent. It would be well worth the exercise to consider this method as a means of encouraging industrialists to set up factories down the country where there is manpower rather than encouraging the labour content to move to the larger cities and towns and to the industrial estates.

I am aware, of course, that there are attractive additional grants in respect of industries in certain counties but perhaps these grants may not be sufficient in certain cases.

The Chair does not wish to interrupt the Deputy but the question of grants for county development work is one for which the Minister has no responsibility. It is the responsibility of the Minister for Finance.

The Minister and his Department should have some control of the workings of industries. This would be in the interest of the workers.

The Chair is only concerned with what is factual at the moment. I am sure that the Minister confers with his opposite number in Finance on these matters.

In the interest of workers a closer watch should be kept on industries in so far as sales and output are concerned. It often happens that the first we hear of the closure of some small industry or, perhaps, a larger industry that may not be doing well, is when we are told that they have a stockpile of manufactured goods. Perhaps the Minister would consider exercising some control or, at least, would consider carrying out a study to see what could be done to ensure that there is not too great a stockpile of manufactured goods in the stores attached to industries. The Department might also endeavour to ensure that there is a continuance of sales of manufactured goods.

The time has come when, apart from the issuing of leaflets to foreign industrialists giving details of grants, tax concessions and other facilities, the Industrial Development Authority should also publish information in booklet form with regard to the employment situation, the labour content and the advantages for industries in the various counties, stating exactly the position in each county. This information should be supplied to anybody making an inquiry with a view to setting up an industry here. A copy of the booklet could be sent to every industrialist who even in the remotest way was interested in coming here. The booklet could be distributed, in particular, to industrialists in countries where there is a huge labour problem. I shall not detain the House any longer but I should like to congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he introduced the Estimate.

In all discussions on industrial development there has been certain controversy as to whether industries should be spread thinly throughout the country or concentrated in a few centres. Most expert opinion is now moving towards the idea that people should not have to travel a distance of more than ten miles or so to work. In America it is said that one should not have to spend more than 15 minutes on the road morning and evening. Give or take five miles, this is a reasonable suggestion.

If this limit is extended to any great extent, worthwhile time which could be spent in valuable recreation is lost. Furthermore, there is the cost element both to the individual and to the community of the provision of adequate transport facilities. There is also the factor that if people spend too long a time travelling they cannot get home from work sufficiently early in the evening to have their main meal. This creates a demand for more elaborate canteen facilities in factories.

I agree, of course, that a certain amount of centralisation is necessary in that, in regard to the provision of sanitary and water facilities, there can be greater efficiency in a reasonably concentrated area. There is also the fact that, if industries are concentrated, one industry will beget another. However, we must arrive at a balance between natural local pride in having an industry in one's town and the need to supply the necessary infrastructure for industry at minimum cost. The suggested travelling distance of ten miles is reasonable and people should not have to travel further than that. Many people in my constituency must travel a great deal further than ten miles to their work. There are people in south Meath and north Kildare who travel daily to Dublin and in many cases must travel through the city to the suburbs.

The amount of time they spend on the road to and from their work is greatly in excess of the generally considered maximum time and distance. In this context there is a definite need for a more concentrated effort to supply local industry in parts of County Meath and north Kildare more convenient to those people who at present have to travel long distances. There is also the possibility of providing either through tax or some other method some form of subsidisation towards travelling expenses incurred by the people who have to travel long distances to work as they do at present as a result of industrial concentration in Dublin.

There are a number of areas in County Meath to which I should particularly like to draw the Minister's attention in this regard. One such place is Athboy in the western part of the constituency, which is a considerable distance from Dublin and whose population cannot find sufficient employment in the centre provided at Navan. It is arguable that there should be some form of industrialisation in the area between Athboy and Clonmellon in County Westmeath. We have likewise an area like Enfield which is in the middle of a small farming area. This is very important because Meath is the third greatest agricultural county in the country and many of the farmers in County Meath are small farmers whose farms do not come within the category of viable farms. As a result, many of them have to leave farming and find work in the surrounding area. In the areas where there is the greatest concentration of small farms there is likely to be the greatest need for alternative industrial employment.

Enfield in south Meath is such an area. There is a clear need to establish some industry in that area because of its considerable distance from Dublin. One would also supply an industrial focus for an area of north Kildare as well as south Meath if one were to develop industry in Enfield. Kells is another place which suffers in this context. It is about nine miles from the Cavan border. As we all know, Cavan is a designated area. It is an area where instead of receiving 45 per cent grants they receive 60 per cent grants. This means that Kells is at a significant disadvantage as against places in Cavan with regard to attracting industries. Industrialists thinking of setting up industries in that broad general area will choose elsewhere in Cavan rather than Kells. There is a need here to consider the possibility of extending the designated areas to cover those areas of north Meath which have at present a high concentration of non-viable farms, and a high concentration of people in need of employment—people who have similar problems to the people who are at present residing in the designated areas. The fact that an industrialist has to go only a few miles up the road in order to find better grant facilities in Cavan and Monaghan has a severe disincentive effect as regards supplying necessary industry across a wide area of north County Meath.

As a result of this places like Kells, as I mentioned already, Drumconrath and Nobber have all suffered in the matter of attracting industry because of the unbearable competition they receive from alternative sites with higher grant facilities in Monaghan and Cavan. Another place with problems, to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention, is that area of north Kildare which I represent as a Deputy in this House. The big question here is the future of Bord na Móna. Will they be laying off workers over the next ten or 15 years and, if so, how many? The industrial needs of this area depend on the answer to that question. There is need for somewhat greater clarity in this regard so that the people and the Department of Industry and Commerce can prepare more effectively to supply more employment in this area if it is the case that people will as a result of the run down of the bogs become disemployed. There is no significant indication at the moment that this is happening to any great extent. However, it is only natural to expect that those bogs will become run down. I am concerned that we should be ready and prepared well in advance to supply alternative employment for the people in this area. It is quite possible that existing employment in Bord na Móna in this area will survive in the foreseeable future. We should have a little more clarity and a little more information in this regard so that our fears can either be laid at rest or remedial action can be taken.

I have also some concern with the area around Navan. We all know that Navan has in the past few years developed significantly in the industrial field. There has been a substantial development of the furniture industry in this town but there are some grounds for disquiet that some of the smaller furniture factories there will find it difficult to face highly competitive conditions in the EEC. I hope the Minister will encourage and assist the taking of any preparatory action which may be necessary to preserve the jobs of people employed in the furniture industry in Navan. We should also in the general context of industrialisation in Meath bear in mind, as I said earlier in my speech, that this is the third greatest agricultural county in the country and that we should consider the question of providing industries based on agriculture in this area.

I am not aware of any substantial industry in the county which is based on agriculture. We should give this careful consideration. It is a possibility which should be considered by the Minister in consultation with his colleague the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, to ensure that, when we enter the EEC and the new market for spring lamb opens up in the EEC, Meath should as a major sheep producing county be given some favourable consideration in regard to the siting of a spring lamb processing plant. There is also a danger in a general context, and I would not say it was any more or any less applicable to Meath than to many other places. It is the question which was set out in the report, Challenge, published by the Federation of Irish Industries, as it then was. The suggestion was made that we should to some extent rely on craft industries. I know they suggested a number of other things as well but there was a suggestion that in free trade conditions we would probably be better suited in the field of craft industries than in some other fields. There is a danger of the limited market becoming flooded. There is a limited market at present for any type of craft work and this market can easily become flooded. We should ensure that this does not happen and that people engaged in craft industries have an adequate market available to them.

As regards the infrastructure in County Meath there are difficulties to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention. These difficulties are generally in the fields of transport and communications.

The Deputy will appreciate that the Minister has no responsibility for transport or communications.

I do, but the Minister's work could be severely affected by unnecessary restrictions in these fields. The roads on the Meath border leading into Dublin are not sufficiently good to attract industry to County Meath. Coming into Dublin one meets traffic jams on twisting roads. Many people have to bring their produce along these roads to Dublin. Bad roads discourage people. On the road to Kildare there is a dual carriageway.

The Deputy is now talking about something which is not the responsibility of the Minister.

I have made my point.

The Minister will not be able to reply to this, because it is not his responsibility.

I am sure this point will be brought by the Minister to the attention of the relevant authority. There is a final point I wish to make. Frequently people need to contact their opposite numbers abroad. We must ensure that there are sufficient telephones. There are sufficient telephones in Kildare but not in Meath.

This is not the responsibility of the Minister. The Deputy has made his point.

I have made the point.

The Deputy is being very adroit.

I am grateful for the Chair's indulgence in this matter. I wish to remind the Minister of the need to ensure that there is adequate industrial development in the western and northern portions of my constituency and, indeed, throughout County Meath. Some places in this region are distant from the focal point of current industrial development in Dublin. There is a heavy concentration of small farms in the area. A relatively high number of people leave agriculture to seek industrial employment. There is a need for industry in the area in order to avoid journeys of 30 to 40 miles to employment in Dublin. I would ask the Minister to consider the extension of the designated areas in order to include those portions of north County Meath which have common problems with the designated areas.

I congratulate the Minister on his new appointment and wish him every success in his post. No doubt the Minister will prove to be as illustrious as his predecessors.

I wish to express my strongest disapproval of trading stamps and their use. There are a number of companies selling trading stamps to various retailers. This is a most unfair form of trading. I understand that representations have been made to the Minister's Department and that the Department of Industry and Commerce are examining the whole question. The public at large are being hoodwinked when stamps are given, with their purchases. A housewife may prefer to be given six trading stamps with ¼lb. of tea, rather than go to a shop where there is an offer of 2d or 3d off that particular brand of tea on a particular day. The value of the half-dozen stamps which this unfortunate, misguided shopper receives is really less han ½d. Roughly 1,600 of these stamps are equivalent to 10s. A motorist may get 50 stamps with his petrol but he is really getting 3¼d discount on his £.

There is another aspect of this trading stamp business which I do not like. I do not wish to use very strong language but I feel it is a form of blackmail of those traders who refuse to use trading stamps. A book of trading stamps costs a shopkeeper £5. This is money spent in a non-productive way. Trading stamp companies are making money in an unfair way. If something like the Christmas clubs were introduced for Easter or bank holiday weekends more discounts would be given directly to the customers. The trading stamp companies do not help to lower the cost of living. In fact, they add to the cost of living. The Minister should seriously consider outlawing such companies. The arguments against trading stamps far outweigh the arguments in their favour. The trading stamp companies argue that the so-called gifts are important in that they provide employment in industry but in fact similar goods are available and can be purchased in almost any store in Ireland. I do not like to see people being misled. Trading stamp companies are misleading the public into thinking that they are getting bigger discounts than they actually are. I was talking to one retailer recently who told me that even when he took threepence off a packet of tea as a special offer the shop next door which was offering six trading stamps on a packet of tea was crowded with customers. This might be good business for the trading stamp companies but it is dishonest. We have all heard of the old tag "Let the buyer beware". Trading stamps are an unfair way of making money because they are taking the money from the people who can least afford it. When the Minister is concluding I hope he will tell the House what his views are on trading stamps and if he proposes to take any action in the near future. It is time the Department of Industry and Commerce put its foot down in relation to the giving of trading stamps. I raise this point on this Estimate in order to stress how strongly I feel about it. I hope the Minister will lose no time in making a decision about the giving of trading stamps.

This Estimate affects the whole country but as a representative from Laois-Offaly I want to speak about that area. At the end of my speech I shall say something about national policy but as the Minister has said that our proposed entry to the EEC will be debated at a future date I shall make very little comment on that now.

The Government have paid scant attention to the development of Laois-Offaly; in fact, we have fallen behind the rest of the country. Anyone looking at the overall picture would think Laois-Offaly was being actively discriminated against. All the counties in Connaught are in designated areas, so also are Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan and Longford. In 1966 legislation was passed for An Foras Tionscal to develop industrial estates in Galway and Waterford. The industrial functions of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company were extended to include Clare, Limerick and North Tipperary.

The Chair would like to point out to the Deputy that the Shannon Free Airport Development Company is under the aegis of the Minister's Department but grants for county development work and the western counties come under the aegis of the Department of Finance.

I understand that the Minister made specific reference to the industrial function of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company at column 463 of the Official Report of the 4th June, 1970.

That is quite in order but the other two are not.

For the help of the Chair——

The Chair does not need any help; it only points this out for the information of the Deputy.

Industrial grants were specifically mentioned at column 460 of the Official Report, in the Minister's Estimate speech of the 4th June, 1970. What I have to say deals with the workers, their incomes and the factories which I hope will be built in the areas and I believe it comes under this heading. I would ask the Chair to allow me to develop this theme.

The Chair is not interfering with the Deputy at all beyond pointing out that the Deputy mentioned the western counties and these are specifically under the control of the Department of Finance. I make the point for the Deputy's information and for the information of any other Deputy who might advert to it.

I take the point. If one looks at the country one sees the western seaboard on the one hand which comes within the area which is specially treated for industrial development. Waterford, Limerick and North Tipperary come in under the industrial estates and in the northern part of the country we have Cavan, Longford and Monaghan. Dublin attracts a large number of industries because of its natural potential as a capital city and because of the availability of markets and the counties in the hinterland namely, Kildare, Wicklow, Meath and Louth have benefited as a result. The Ross Report, published by the Economic and Social Research Institute, deals with the personal incomes county by county in 1965. The author of the report, Dr. Michael Ross, who is an officer in the institute, stated in his report that the record is such as to make one wonder if the efforts to develop the west have not led to a comparative neglect of the midlands and the Shannon has continued to be regarded as the dividing line even with the adjustments for Longford. I want to pay tribute to a local Laois-Offaly paper which has highlighted this report. The Leinster Express, Portlaoise, made a good contribution as a local paper in pointing out adequately the facts outlined in the Ross Report. The report showed the imbalance we suffer in Laois-Offaly. Having dealt with other counties it says:

Offaly is also a transition county and here will be considered in conjunction with Leix which, by 1965, should properly be regarded as one of the less prosperous groups. In 1960, average personal income per head in Leix and Offaly was broadly similar and comparable to that of Westmeath and Wexford. The growth in average personal income between 1960 and 1965 in both counties was very low. Leix had the lowest rise in the State and Offaly was third from the bottom.

I believe this is highly significant, that a county with reasonably good farming land like Laois, should be in such a position.

Offaly had experienced a very high rate of decline in agricultural employment and a very small increase in non-farming jobs. Leix experienced a smaller rate of decline and a larger rate of increase. Even so, in both counties the drop in numbers employed exceeded 4.7 per cent. In Offaly this was accompanied by a rise in total population: in Leix by a fall in population of over 1 per cent. In both the population between 15 and 64 years of age fell—by over 2.5 per cent in Leix.

This report brought out by the Industrial Research Institute is significant. It is a reliable paper of which we should take note and I request the Minister and the officials of his Department to take special note of it.

It continues:

Offaly is rather akin to Westmeath in being less dependent on agriculture for its income. Leix derives about 10 per cent more of its income from this source in both years. This difference may offer a partial explanation to the greater severity of the decline in Leix. It would also appear to be due to the failure of these counties to attract their share of new employment. Once again this raises the question as to whether the designation of special areas for industrialisation has not worked to the disadvantage of the Leinster midlands generally.

This excellent report deals specifically with actual incomes in different tables. In Table 9 it deals with income per head in 1965 and in Table 10 with income per head in 1960. A few of the figures will help to show how incomes in these two counties have fallen behind. While I welcome the increases secured all over the country, and I say that sincerely and I wish them well and hope their incomes will continue to increase, nevertheless we hope to see an increase in incomes for the people in Leix-Offaly also. The income per head of population in Offaly in 1960 was £177 and in Leix £173. In 1965 income per head in Offaly had risen only to £237 while income in Leix had risen to only £235. Contrast this with Clare, which in 1966 was lower than Offaly at £166, and which increased to £246. Kerry was also behind Offaly at £170 in 1960 and had gone up to £242. This goes to show that people in Leix-Offaly have not had the employment to which they were entitled.

The situation at the time was so serious that Offaly County Council passed a resolution which was sent to the Department of Industry and Commerce. The Ross Report was published in November, 1969, and I believe it stimulated the council's concern. A report was circulated by Offaly County Council at the time headed "Lack Of Employment Opportunities The Cause Of Emigration". This report pointed out that the county's population had fallen from 60,187 in 1901 to 51,717 in 1966. The overall decline in population there has been greater than the national average. Net emigration between 1961 and 1966 has been estimated at 3,024 while in the same period the natural increase in population was 3,208. Those who emigrate are generally between 15 and 30 years of age, and when emigration like this continues too few adults are left to support a relatively dependent age group: those under 15 and over 60. This is a situation that needs the attention of the Department of Industry and Commerce if it is to be counteracted. Prolonged emigration and the drop in incomes is basically due to the lack of a sufficiently large and varied occupation structure. Not enough opportunity is available for people to provide themselves with suitable employment. There are not adequate opportunities for industrialists to establish industries in these counties.

A motion in connection with this report was passed by the county council in April and we were told that it would be considered by the Department but, to date, we have had no definite reply as to whether any special efforts will be made.

At Clara at present about 600 people are on short time in a factory there. A Tullamore firm is also on short time and in the town of Birr a railway was closed a few years ago and a shoe factory was allowed to close. The shoe factory made several efforts with different Government Departments to obtain grants but they were met with a deaf ear and got no financial support to enable them to continue in production. Many of my best friends and people I knew at that time are now employed in Britain and Canada. These people had been trained for a particular business and were skilled operatives. Their energy, intelligence and industry are lost to this country.

In spite of this and in spite of the fact that we have not been getting the necessary encouragement, I am pleased to report that the people in these two counties have been making every effort to help themselves. If we had not been able to help ourselves, then the figures I have quoted would be much worse. Birr Urban Council have acquired an industrial site and the people of the town will service it and make it available for industry. I am sure the people in Tullamore and Clara will also help themselves, failing Government aid. There is a great obligation on the Government to help these two counties which are in the centre of the country. They are the gateway to the south and the west and people travelling through the country can get an idea of the prosperity of the area. They deserve further attention. If the people there are given the incentive then they will be able to change those figures and meet their commitments. They can then play their part if and when this country joins the EEC. It would also be relevant to mention another local paper, the Midland Tribune, which had a leading article about the notice of motion which was passed by Offaly County Council requesting that the county be appointed a designated area. The heading of this article was: “Offaly Makes a Request”, and I quote:

The immediate problem is that the county needs 1,000 new jobs for male personnel within the next five years. This is a formidable task.

This is a matter in which this paper is also very interested. Perhaps it is because Offaly has such a natural asset that the Department of Industry and Commerce did not allow it in with the other counties which got preferential treatment. I quote again from the Midland Tribune:

Granted that the spectacular and successful development of Offaly's bogs mitigated the county's problems, it must be remembered, as the County Secretary's report points out, that these are a wasting asset and their remaining usefulness will not stand one full generation.

On the economic side, perhaps, that is true and, if so, the need is all the greater for those two counties to get special attention.

On the brighter side excellent employment is being provided in these two counties by a firm which utilises the turf in the area when it is cut away to a certain extent. The product is made from the cutaway bogs, from the silt and the organic soil. With different portions of the bogs being cut away, Bord na Móna have a vast asset at their disposal. When the bog is cut away, if it is not cut down too low, the land is suitable for the development of horticultural products like peas, beans and carrots. I am sure Bord na Móna will recognise the value of this asset.

I should like to pay a tribute to a firm here in Ireland, the Guinness firm. The people in this firm came under severe criticism. I have no wish to attack the former Minister who made this criticism. He has troubles enough of his own without my adding to them. However, the attack he made was unfair. It was out of place and unnecessary.

These comments do not arise on the Estimate.

This firm are providing a great deal of employment in my constituency in the development of hotels, the boating industry and the canals. The reference to the people of this firm as belted earls was unfair. They are providing excellent employment in my constituency. There is over £1 million going into the development of the Shannon and the canal. There is also great potential in the boat-building industry in that not alone public companies but the average person can participate. At the moment it is only wealthy people who can make use of the canals and the rivers, but I can foresee a stage when small firms will be able to use their own boats. I would hope that the Guinness firm would consider going into this industry. If they come to Laois-Offaly they will receive full co-operation from everyone if they wish to develop this industry. If the boat industry is developed properly it can provide plenty of employment.

Money being invested in hotels and tourism affects all of us: it helps the farmers, the shopkeepers, the small business people. I hope, therefore, for continued development of this industry.

I am pleased to see the Minister back in the House and I hope he will give this project his full attention. I emphasise, for his benefit, the prospect that the special grants available for industries in the counties of Laois and Offaly will attract industries to those areas. Laois-Offaly is not regarded as a special area. If one were looking around for an area in which to set up an industry and if other areas can get special exemptions, special allowances, special grants, if they can provide free premises, free fixed assets, interest free loans, one would be inclined to go to areas like that. I therefore ask the Minister to give special attention to this situation and when he is replying I hope he will refer to it specifically.

A number of protected industries may be affected by entry to the EEC and people may feel that there is not sufficient time between their establishment and our entry to the EEC to make them fully capable of withstanding the competition that will come with entry. There was a specific case made for south Italy, however. Special consideration was given to industries there to allow them to develop. I believe Ireland can hope to get the same consideration. I believe our negotiators will seek and obtain special recognition for small protected industries here. Because the Minister did not go into the matter of our entry to the EEC I will not go into it at present: I will defer comment on it until we have the special debate which we have been promised.

Initially I should like to explain that I have a little difficulty in collecting my thoughts because I had not anticipated that the debate on the Estimate for my Department would conclude so speedily. I should like at this stage to acknowledge the general good wishes that were extended to me on introducing this, the first of many Estimates for my Department during the years I shall be Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Opening the debate for the Opposition, Deputy Donegan criticised my introductory speech from the point of view that I did not go into matters in greater detail. He referred also to my deferring reference to the overall effects of our possible entry to the EEC. In my introductory remarks I referred specifically to the fact that because a debate had been promised in relation to the White Paper, I did not think I should go into the matter at this stage. In his concluding remarks Deputy Enright indicated he did not think it necessary to refer to the implications of EEC membership because he anticipated it would be fully dealt with during the debate on the White Paper.

Deputy Donegan indicated that, as the new incumbent in the Department, he thought I should give a broad outline of my plans and proposals. The Department of Industry and Commerce has been so well managed and so capably looked after during the past 12 or 13 years by those who have been called my illustrious predecessors that I do not think a statement of broad new policy is called for or justified, particularly because of the tremendous amount of basic groundwork that has been done by my predecessors in those years.

As usual, Deputy Donegan displayed his happy knack of praising us for one or two things we have done while at the same time taking full credit for having originally suggested the good ideas to us. From my point of view, so long as it is in the national interest and for the overall good of the country in the matter of industrial development, it does not matter from whom the suggestion comes. I am always willing and happy to accept constructive suggestions from any side of the House. Deputy Donegan must accept that if there is a good idea and if he feels he has a suggestion that would improve things, he already has an example——

Agreed. That is true.

I will always accept a good suggestion and I have no objection to Deputy Donegan taking the credit.

The Minister has made history for the speed with which he has got his Estimate through.

Before the Deputy returned to the House I said I was taken by surprise because I had hoped there would be some more constructive ideas from the far side. I am rather disappointed, possibly, that I have not had the benefit of some more voices from that side. Deputy Donegan made a point in relation to his interpretation of some of my introductory remarks. He referred to the investment of £66 million of capital and 28,000 jobs. He referred to grant-aided industries established in the designated areas from 1952 to 1st March last.

This, in fact, represents an average capital investment of £2,300 odd per job. The average cost per job has risen quite steeply in recent years and is currently estimated at £5,000. An increased number of capital intensive industries, greater selectivity in the promotion of desirable industries, plus the rising cost of fixed assets, are the main causes for this increase. It should be mentioned, however, that the cost of providing a job varies very widely depending on the type of industry concerned, that is whether the industry is capital intensive or employment intensive.

Deputy Donegan also made the point that my Department, in conjunction with the IDA, should consult with the Department of Local Government about regional developments and should decide where the roads and other infrastructural facilities should go as a means towards promoting local industry and development in selected localities. In this regard let me say that, as far as the industrial estates are concerned, there is an infrastructural committee for each of the estates in Waterford and Galway. The committees consist of representatives of the IDA, the National Building Agency, the Department of Local Government and the local authority. Each committee is concerned with all the infrastructural requirements for the various facilities on those industrial estates. Apart from that, a steering committee which is representative of the IDA, the Department of Labour and the Department of Local Government, has been set up to co-ordinate industrial development planning for the country as a whole. The infrastructural requirements for new industries in any part of the country are considered by this steering committee.

Apart from the fact that there were so few contributions to this debate I was particularly struck by the contributions made by Deputy Donegan, on the one hand, and by Deputy Bruton, on the other hand. Deputy Donegan criticised the present policy of the IDA in relation to the non-granting of grant aid to a cabinet maker somewhere near the Border. He mentioned that this man was quite well known and was quite efficient in the production of church furniture and that his firm had quite an export potential. He said that it was wrong that the IDA were not allocating grants to cabinet making as such and to suggest that the trade was so much overdone that this man—whom I do not know—should not have qualified for a grant. Deputy Donegan was here this evening to listen to Deputy Bruton making the contra-case. He was worried about the furniture industry in Navan and he said that some protection should be given to the small cabinet makers in the Navan area. This in its own way indicates that the pressures are such that the IDA would be leaving themselves very much open to criticism from that type of industrialist if they appeared to be encouraging further production from, if you like, a neighbour up the road. This, as I see it, is one of the biggest problems that have to be tackled by the IDA in circumstances such as this. Here we have the type of situation in which they can be left wide open to criticsm for using the taxpayers' money further to grant aid to one firm and put another firm, which has got off the ground without such State assistance, out of business. It is hardly necessary for me to reply to Deputy Donegan's observations in that regard because, I suggest quite seriously, Deputy Bruton has replied to him on my behalf.

Would the Minister not think that if the gentlemen about whom Deputy Bruton was talking also got their grants he would worry less about them—if they were exporting—

If Deputy Donegan cares to let me have the details I could take the matter up with the IDA.

Good. I will do that.

I am not making any specific promises. I am working under the difficulty of not knowing the name of the firm.

I will send it to the Minister.

Deputy Donegan also raised the question, which is a logical one at this stage and one which will come up for discussion more in relation to our White Paper, of whether industrial grants and tax reliefs can continue when we are in the EEC. There is no doubt that our facilities for industrial grants will come under review by the Commission which will be required to establish the extent to which our grant system is compatible with the provisions of the Rome Treaty. State aids which distort or threaten to distort competition are, to the extent to which they adversely affect trade between member countries, deemed to be incompatible with the Common Market idea. As indicated in the White Paper we would certainly argue, having regard to the purpose of grants for industrial development here and the circumstances of our economy, that they are in keeping with the objectives of the Treaty. There is no doubt that the Rome Treaty prohibits the granting of export profits tax reliefs in respect of exports to other member States except to the extent that they have been previously approved by the Council on a proposal from the Commission. There is no doubt that our system of tax reliefs will also come up for consideration but in view of the importance of these reliefs in promoting industrial development let me say that I would hope it would be possible to secure the Council's agreement to the retention of these measures. This is a matter which we can go into more deeply in the discussion of the White Paper but since the matter was raised I wanted to express my personal views on it.

Deputy O'Leary said that the IDA should more widely use the power which they have to appoint members to the boards of grant-aided industries and that the State must go into partnership in industry and have a greater say in the policy of these new concerns. This power, of course, was taken under the most recent Act but it is not the policy of the IDA to interfere in the day-to-day affairs of grant-aided industrial concerns. It is considered preferable that they should make their own policy decisions and in any case the industrialist has a far greater investment in the particular project than has the authority.

The IDA encounter very keen competition from other countries that are also prepared to grant equity participation in industry and it is only in the major projects that the IDA are interested in acquiring equity participation. Speaking in the Dáil in the debate on the IDA Bill, 1969, regarding the power proposed for the authority to take shares in industry, my predecessor said:

It arises because particularly in the case of larger industrial undertakings where very substantial grants were given it seems to me that many of these cases are very sound commercial propositions which are clearly going to make a good deal of money. If it is possible for us to arrange it in this way, we ought to try to ensure that the State will get back some of its investment and this is a good way to do it.

In many cases the promoters would not be prepared to agree to it but there are some cases in which they would be prepared to agree to it. Again, it would form another aspect of providing a package deal. The principal reason behind it is to enable us, in cases which are deemed to be suitable, to recover some of the State's money that is invested in projects.

The enabling legislation for the IDA to use this power was provided in order to protect the State investment to the greatest extent possible but, at the same time, it will be used as sparingly as possible in an endeavour to ensure the very minimum interference in the day-to-day affairs of grant-aided industries.

Both Deputy Donegan and Deputy Michael O'Leary referred to the Committee on Industrial Progress and Deputy Donegan suggested that there should be more extended market appraisal than we have had to date. Deputy O'Leary referred to the various surveys being carried out at present and mentioned in particular the report on women's outer wear industry. The Committee on Industrial Progress is doing valuable work. I expect within the next week a further report from them on the processing of fruit and vegetables and in the next few months three further reports—one on hosiery and knitwear, one on the metal trades and one dealing with paper, paper products and printing.

It is essential that both management and workers should take an interest in the reports that are issued and with that in mind I arranged a press conference in relation to the issue of the report on women's outer wear industry in order that the maximum publicity should be given to this matter. The fullest use should be made of the observations contained in the reports and I am indebted to the committee for the work they have undertaken in their compilation. I strongly recommend that all those involved in the industries concerned should study the recommendations very carefully.

Deputy Michael O'Leary drew attention to the questionnaires sent to firms. I saw for myself that a number of firms did not reply to the questionnaires sent to them and I took note of the fact that some of these firms were from the city and some from the country. My immediate reaction to the people who had not taken time to reply to the questionnaires was that they were not sufficiently interested but they are the very people whose industry might well fail because of this lack of interest. Many of the firms concerned were quite small businesses. Perhaps there is a feeling among small firms that the Minister for Finance and the Revenue Commissioners have means of collecting information which is supplied in reply to various questionnaires. In relation to the work being done by the Committee on Industrial Progress and to the further inquiries they will be making from a number of industries, it might be no harm for me to say here that it was spelled out that the information was confidential as far as the firm itself was concerned. I want to spell out quite clearly, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, that all information supplied by the management or proprietors of those firms is dealt with, and will continue to be dealt with, in a most confidential way and is only used in the preparation and the assimilation of information that goes into the preparation of those reports.

But the real point I was referring to was those firms which had, in fact, received grants and had not in return filled in any questionnaires. Their case really needs looking into. There may be other firms which have not answered questionnaires but the real point is those firms which have received cash and refused to answer questionnaires subsequently.

I have had no opportunity, since the Deputy made this statement, of checking as to whether they got grants. The Deputy is obviously quite convinced that they had got grants.

It is marked on the report that they have received grants.

I see. I share the Deputy's view that it is not good enough and I would be inclined to look into it though, as against that, let me be quite frank and say that when a firm gets a grant, except that from the point of view of principle, one would feel it was the right thing to do, I do not think that I should arrange that they should be legally bound to complete every form which we send out to them. I take a poor view of their not filling the form. Let me put it that way.

They did not take a poor view when they took our money.

I agree.

Can I say to the tax collector that I do not feel like filling in a return this year?

I have just learned as a result of inquiries which I made subsequent to the Deputy's remarks that some firms which did not complete questionnaires did, in fact, subsequently co-operate otherwise in the survey.

Deputy Donegan referred to what he described as an industry of which a large percentage was involved in his own constituency—the boot and shoe industry.

One half.

Yes, he said 50 per cent of the boot and shoe industry is concentrated in County Louth. He drew attention to the impending withdrawal of the quota restriction and he expressed worry about this and the fact that the consequential duty would be insufficient to deter any influx of foreign produced shoes. I appreciate the Deputy's point of view but I feel that his statement was an emotional one and not quite supported by the facts. While the footwear manufacturers have expressed some unease about the situation with which they will be faced after the 1st July there is no positive reason to believe that the position will in any way be as catastrophic as suggested by the Deputy. There has, in fact, been a body of opinion among the manufacturers in favour of the removal of the quota. This decision to remove the quota will eliminate the duty free importation of 185,000 pairs of shoes. The quota imports themselves tended to be almost entirely in higher quality shoes and the manufacturers will now have a far better opportunity of competing with this type of shoe, a fact which is looked upon as being beneficial to the industry.

I have gathered, since taking up the position of Minister for Industry and Commerce, that one of the things that are proving a problem to the shoe trade is the importation of plastic shoes and they were freed from quota restrictions some years ago. The manufacture and sale of plastic shoes has increased considerably. There has been an increase since last year of 400 per cent. Admittedly, it started from a low mark. There was little or no plastic production recorded in——

Is the Minister talking about imports of footwear?

I am dealing with imports of footwear and the problem that faces the footwear trade after the 1st July of this year.

Does the Minister agree that the plastic shoes to which he has referred—I have had to use that word, too, because it is very difficult to get a word for them; I also used the words "manmade fibres"— are almost exactly similar now in appearance to good leather shoes?

In appearance only.

I agree. I would not wear them if I got them for nothing but that is not the point. The point is that they are almost identical in appearance. This is one of the great worries.

We export far more Irish footwear than we import foreign footwear. I found myself recently, arising from a statement I made down the country, being quoted on a Sunday newspaper as calling on our people to buy Irish in preference to foreign goods. I have used every occasion on which I have spoken to exhort the people to buy quality Irish produce. In press reports normally there are words excluded and I found myself getting a letter from a prominent Irish exporter complaining about my anxiety to see the Irish people buying quality Irish. In fairness to him I was quoted as just saying to buy Irish. I was attacked in writing by this gentleman who claimed that if Ministers in other countries adopted the attitude I was adopting the various exporters in this country would, of necessity, go out of business and we would have difficulty in balancing our trade. I am afraid I cannot accept this. I cannot see my way to apologise to anybody for asking our people to buy quality Irish goods.

Hear, hear.

At the same time, I cannot see myself being justified in asking or expecting our people to buy an Irish product which is the same price as some foreign produce that may be available to them in a shop. I do not think there is even the necessity for this because I feel our manufacturers and our workers are capable of turning out products which are equal to their counterparts imported from the other side.

I have no intention whatsoever of apologising to anyone for asking him or her to provide quality Irish goods. We have a duty and a responsibility to do so. I would appeal to those in the distributive trade to refrain from tendering the kind of advice some of them offer customers: "We have these shirts. They are Irish, but we will have good ones in next week". I have had experience of this kind of thing myself and I want to use my platform here now to condemn this practice. I appeal to all engaged in the distributive trade to be more mindful of their colleagues in employment. We are facing a very competitive time.

To come back to footwear, Deputy Donegan quoted a case of shoes imported at 18s or 19s a pair and sold at 85s a pair.

Plastic ones.

The total import amounts to 185,000 pairs.

Leather or plastic?

Leather. Having made inquiries, I discovered that in the majority of cases a superior type of shoe is imported. If I were an importer with a limited licence for, say, 30,000 pairs, they would have a sort of snob value because of their scarcity. If I imported them at 25s a pair I could put them in my window at 90s a pair in the knowledge that no other footwear of the same kind would come in for another 12 months. That would be good business, if you like, and the temptation would be to shove the Irish shoe on to the back shelf. There is that problem. There is the problem of weaning people off foreign shoes. It is a little frustrating to have to talk of weaning people off foreign shoes. For some reason or other there are those amongst us who do not seem to have the proper national approach. That may sound like a cliché, but I do not know in what other way to put it. Most people, when asked, will not admit to the purchase of a foreign article in preference to an Irish article. But it happens. I have had experience of asking if a particular article was Irish manufacture and the attendant in the store looking at me as if to ask what sort of "quare fella" I was. That has been my experience.

It is unfortunately the fact.

It is not good enough. There is need for our consumers to be mindful of their national responsibility to purchase quality Irish goods. That cannot be said too often. I hope that everybody will play his or her part in conveying this message to the public generally.

Both Deputy Donegan and Deputy O'Donnell referred to the scrap steel situation. I have not had an opportunity of examining this. Deputy O'Donnell referred to a price list. I understand that the bigger the bulk of scrap Irish Steel Holdings can procure the more economic it is from their point of view. However, there does seem to be a pretty big gap in the prices. I shall look into this, but I understand there is a good deal of justification for it from the point of view of the economic working of Irish Steel Holdings. Bulk buying is a better proposition than the purchase of small lots. However, as I said, I shall examine this to satisfy myself that the procedure is a proper procedure. I shall communicate with both Deputies giving them my views on the matter after I have examined it.

Actually I did not raise it.

My information was that Deputy Donegan made reference to this but perhaps it was Deputy O'Donnell. In that case, I shall communicate with Deputy O'Donnell.

If my reply to the House is not as comprehensive as I would have wished, it is because I had been expecting a longer debate on the Estimate and I had proposed making some further inquiries. However, I was deprived of the opportunity of so doing by reason of the reluctance of Deputies to criticise or praise me as the case might be.

Deputy Briscoe referred to what he described as the menace of stamp trading and he asked if steps could be taken to have this practice discontinued. I am aware that invitations were issued to the public to offer comment on stamp trading but replies were received from only 49 parties. All of those replies are at present being considered. In addition to this, arrangements have been made for collecting information on the experience of other countries with a view to having such information considered also. I am hoping to take a decision on this matter reasonably shortly. I hold some views in regard to stamp trading and I am not entirely happy with the practice as such. However, I should like to have all available information before making a decision.

Deputy O'Donnell raised a matter today that interested me. He also raised this matter during the debate on the IDA Bill. I refer to his pronounced interest in the small industries division of the IDA. He asked if it would be possible to make arrangements whereby a unit could be created within CTT which would have special responsibility for marketing the products of small industries who are not geared to marketing—a division which, he said, would have special reference to exports.

I am aware that CTT and the IDA have been already considering this. It is a matter that attracts my attention further because there is no doubt that the problem of the small craft industrialist is that, having produced goods, he is unable to find a market for them. CTT have been active in this regard but perhaps the Deputy's idea is one that should be followed up. I assure Deputy O'Donnell that I shall be looking into this matter because the greatest deterrent to the small man is, that having produced goods, he finds difficulty in having them marketed. The setting up of some type of State agency who would have available to them the good offices and expertise of Córas Tráchtála is worth considering.

Deputy John O'Leary showed an interest in the development of industries in small towns, as he said, with a population of 1,000 or less. This is very much to be encouraged and we are endeavouring to encourage it. I would join with him in recommending that local development associations, some of which are extremely active in endeavouring to attract industry to their areas, should endeavour to aim at acquiring small sites in an effort to attract industries. On the whole, local development associations, while some of them have been active in criticising the IDA and the Department of Industry and Commerce for failure to get industries in their area, have had a good deal of success in their active pursuit of industries. In many cases this success has been obtained as a result of their perseverance during the years.

The Deputy went further and recommended that development associations should try to provide factory premises, and he became enthusiastic in suggesting that perhaps the IDA or the Minister might help by way of grants. Invariably a grant is eventually paid; but grant aiding the provision of premises by a local development association without having anything to go into the premises, might lead to the creation of "white elephants" and in fact, act as a deterrent to further industrial development. However, I do not think we have too many "white elephants". There is a grant but it is only payable when the industry has got off the ground and is not paid in anticipation of an industry. There is an arrangement whereby the IDA have power to do this themselves and there is also provision under the 1969 Act. That is as far as it is advisable to go at this stage.

I should like to join with Deputy Michael O'Leary in paying a tribute to the various county development teams for the amount of preparatory and survey work they have done. I hope the graph of industrial progress in the State will continue to rise.

Finally, Deputy Enright, my colleague in my constituency, called for the designation of the two counties of Laois and Offaly. I was out of the House when he was speaking and I did not hear the points he made, but with the knowledge I have of that area I did not need to be present to hear Deputy Enright justifying the case in this regard. This matter has been under active consideration for some time. The designation of new areas presents serious difficulties. It is agreed, however, that the counties of Laois and Offaly have a very good case for special consideration. The matter is being looked into and I expect a decision will be made on this shortly. Deputy Bruton mentioned one factor in that regard. He was speaking as a fringe Deputy—and I do not mean that in any derogatory way.

The Minister would not need to with all the fringes he has.

The Deputy mentioned that in his constituency, extending into north Kildare, a certain amount of employment was given by Bord na Móna. Considerable employment has been given by Bord na Móna down the years in County Offaly. As Deputy Bruton said, there is no reason for thinking that reasonable employment will not continue to be given by Bord na Móna in the immediate future, but looking at things from the long term point of view, say, over a 20 year period, it appears the time has come to begin looking at the possibility of alternative employment.

I am aware that this is not the specific responsibility of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It comes within the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and Power, but the employment given by Bord na Móna and the consequential loss of employment if Bord na Móna began going slow for one reason or another is something which would certainly interest the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I know that Bord na Móna, in conjunction with An Foras Talúntais, have been having a look at the prospects of the bogs for some time. This, of course, is a factor affecting the maintenance or extension of employment in that area. I want to assure my colleague, Deputy Enright, that I am concerned about the lack of industrial progress in the Laois-Offaly area. I hope to be able to do something about it.

I want to thank the House for the way they dealt with the Estimate. I hope, as I said at the outset, that during my time as Minister for Industry and Commerce I may find it possible to continue the tremendous progress made by my predecessors in this Department.

Before I ask a question, I should like to say that we on this side of the House should like to thank the Minister for the very courteous way in which he replied to the Estimate. As he is a courteous man, we should like to express that to him. The Minister referred to 185,000 pairs of leather shoes being imported on quota no longer being so imported. He referred to my statement about shoes being imported at 18s 6d. The shoes I referred to were, of course, the plastic or non-leather shoes. About 150,000 of them were imported at this sort of price and sold in Grafton Street at something like 79s 6d, as I said.

I should like to ask the Minister to tell me what he thinks of this situation. Almost 2,000,000 pairs of shoes sold in Ireland, apart from the 180,000 and the 150,000 referred to, are supplied by the Irish shoe manufacturers. These will now be subject to full competition, when the British manufacturers have paid the tariff of 22½ per cent. Does the Minister not feel that the real crunch is not on the 150,000, not on the 180,000, but on the entire home market itself and that the difficulty now is not the attack on the export market but the short-term defence of the home market which provides the bulk of the business that employs all our shoe operatives?

I am mindful of this.

That is why I am pessimistic.

I have made the point that at the present time the volume of shoe exports exceeds the amount of imports.

It is a small amount.

Our export of shoes in the main is to the UK and our manufacturers are able to sell our shoes in Britain against the shoes produced over there on level terms. If that is so I do not see any reason why our manufacturers here, protected by a 22½ per cent duty, cannot compete successfully with imported shoes on the home market provided our own people have the right mentality and can match shoe with shoe.

Does the Minister not agree that, if a girl is offered ten pairs of shoes, of which seven are British and three Irish, the probability is that she will not buy Irish but simply choose the one she likes best? Therefore, there would be seven chances for the British shoes and three for the Irish on the basis of 70 per cent of the shoes for here being produced by the home market and 30 per cent being exported.

The Deputy said ten pairs of shoes—seven foreign and three Irish. On the basis that 70 per cent would be the home produced shoes and 30 per cent imported shoes, is it not logical to assume that we have seven pairs of Irish as against three pair of British shoes?

Not with the 22½ per cent tariff.

I think so.

Choice is the problem with ladies' shoes. You or I would take the shoes if they were comfortable, but not ladies.

I do not deny I am worried to a certain extent. It is something I will watch with a view to seeing what steps to take if the situation is such that it interferes with the home market. As I said recently to somebody in relation to a similar matter: "If it is not going right come back and we will see what remedial steps we can take". The man's reply to me was: "That is the same as giving me a kick in the teeth and asking me does it hurt. Do you not know it will hurt?" A number of manufacturers resisted this two-year quota extension. There was a certain amount of pressure from the point of view of trading to try to arrange for a further extension. The majority of the manufacturers are now in favour of doing away with the quota restriction and arranging it as it will be after 1st July. As of now I have confidence that the shoe trade will stand up to this particular challenge.

Vote put and agreed to.
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