Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Nov 1970

Vol. 249 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy Kenny).

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Lemass)

Last week I was dealing with drainage matters in general and I should like to start this morning again on drainage. I have some special remarks to make with regard to the Boyne. I should like to deal first with drainage maintenance. It is settled policy that maintenance be a charge on the county councils in proportion to the drainage benefit. This was the recommendation of the Drainage Commission which sat from 1938 to 1940 and went into the whole question of drainage. None of the capital cost of drainage is a charge on the county councils or local people.

Deputy Luke Belton raised the matter of the drainage of the Tolka. The Tolka is No. 27 on the list of minor schemes. We are now dealing with No. 10 so I am afraid it will be some considerable time before we reach the Tolka. Deputy Henry Kenny and Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins referred to the compensation scheme for interference with farmers' lands by the carrying out of work and referred to, the statutory provision that a claim must be made within 12 months of the damage occurring. That clause was in the Act which was passed by this House in 1945. It is not aimed at taking any advantage of the farmers affected. We must remember that large schemes can take up to ten years to carry out and if there were claims for damage coming in long afterwards it would be very hard to establish what the pre-drainage conditions were. When the conditions improve as a result of the drainage scheme the farmer naturally enough is sometimes inclined to forget how bad the land was before the scheme was carried out and it would be quite impossible to have such detailed records as would enable the claims to be dealt with adequately. The commissioners' engineers and foremen have standing instructions to notify each farmer verbally before his land is entered upon for work and at the same time to advise him of the requirement that any claim for compensation should be made within a year. I have been assured that this is done and I believe it is widely known by the farmers themselves. All the same cases do come up where claims come in late and while the claimant's attention is quite properly drawn to the statutory provision it is the commissioners' policy, where they are satisfied that a claim is genuine and real loss has been suffered, not to shelter behind the statute but to deal with the claim on its merits.

As regards compensation claims generally it is no harm to point out that the drainage works are done primarily for the benefit of farmers, to improve their land. Because of the dumping of spoil and so on some interference is unavoidable. It is not possible to make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Mr. Tully

But it is not necessary to pile up the shells on the diningroom table.

Mr. Lemass

I will deal with spoil under the heading of the Boyne since that river is of special scenic interest.

Mr. Cluskey

What about the Nanny?

Mr. Lemass

We have dealt with one; the other one will be dealt with later.

Mr. J. Lenehan

It is not everyone who has two nannies.

Mr. Lemass

There was a time when land occupiers were more appreciative of the work being done for them and when compensation claims were few and far between. However, in recent years there has been a big increase in the number of claims. Deputy Kenny seemed to think that the amount of compensation paid was not adequate and that farmers generally were dissatisfied. I do not think that is the case at all. Naturally, farmers bargain very hard but the commissioners have skilled and experienced valuers who consider each case fully and usually negotiate a settlement. There is provision in the Act for arbitration in cases where agreement is not reached but the cases that go to arbitration are very few. That in itself is evidence that compensation cases are dealt with very clearly.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I know a case in which compensation has been pending for the past ten years. The person concerned is an old man who fought at Kilmichael. It is a pity that the Parliamentary Secretary would not be so gracious as to pay this man after this length of time.

Mr. Lemass

I cannot deal with this individual case now but I believe the matter is having attention. The Deputy has been in touch with me already in relation to this case. Deputy O'Donovan spoke about heavy expenditure in the 1950s and 60s on the purchase of drainage machinery. He could not understand why money was required for this purpose now because he seemed to think we should be equipped fully. Of course, machinery, like everything else, wears out. A car bought in the early 1950s would not be of much use today.

Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick of Cavan was concerned about the Woodford river. This river forms mostly the Ballyconnell canal. It is a tributary of the Erne but it is outside the present proposed scheme because of Border complications. The Woodford river has not been surveyed. If a drainage scheme should be undertaken eventually it is quite possible that this would have to be done at the expense of navigation on the canal. Some rivers are more valuable for navigation purposes and as tourist amenities than are others. There is the question as to whether this river should be developed for navigation or for drainage.

The same Deputy asked me about the weir at Finea. This weir was constructed at the behest of the Fisheries Division of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. It is necessary in drainage operations to have regard to their requirements. The purpose of the weir is to prevent the passage of coarse fish from Lough Kinale to Lough Sheelin where, as is known, there has been a very big investment, in developing game fish angling and where also, for this purpose, the lake must be kept at an adequate level during dry periods. Proposals are under consideration to facilitate the passage of boats around the weir and it is hoped that the matter can be settled agreeably.

I agree with Deputy Treacy on the importance of the Suir drainage. I might add that this is the largest such investigation yet undertaken. It is going ahead as quickly as possible but it is not correct to say that a promise was given to begin drainage in 1971. All going well, it might be possible to formulate a scheme by 1972. As the Deputy will recall from a deputation, however, even this cannot be a firm commitment as there is still a lot of work to be done.

Deputy Kenny was concerned about the difficulty of boating between Lough Cullen and Lough Conn because of rocks. I am told that these are bedrocks which it would be impracticable to remove. They are not rocks left after blasting. Marking of the shoals could be of help and this is being considered.

I have dealt already in a general way with the maintenance work on the rivers Glyde and Dee. The workers there will be maintained in employment until Christmas.

Mr. Tully

Until after Christmas perhaps?

Mr. Lemass

The last pay day will be the day after Christmas.

Mr. Tully

And the number of holidays around that period?

Mr. Lemass

Yes. Deputy Tully was concerned particularly about interference with water supplies where drainage operations are carried out. Water supplies such as those for domestic use and deriving from rivers are always either restored or paid for after drainage works have been carried out. The same applies to drinking slips for cattle. There are legal difficulties about accepting liability for certain types of spring wells. We dealt with this matter at Question Time last week.

Mr. Tully

Could the Parliamentary Secretary say whether it would be possible to make even an ex gratia payment to those people? He will agree that if a group spend several thousand pounds on a water system it is hard luck if the Board of Works can take it away from them.

Mr. Lemass

So far as the Boyne is concerned only one has been turned down and the others are under investigation.

Mr. Tully

Have any been approved?

Mr. Lemass

Not so far.

Mr. Tully

One has been turned down and the others are under consideration, so nothing has been given.

Mr. Lemass

There is a difficulty about underground rivers but in so far as it is possible to meet any claim that can be reasonably justified, it is my intention to do so.

Mr. Tully

I will accept that.

Mr. Lemass

I should like to deal now with the Boyne. This is one of the more recent and the biggest schemes in operation at the moment. Deputy Tully was concerned about wild life and suggested that the estuary should be turned into a wild life reserve. There has been no definite proposal for a wild life sanctuary in the Boyne area but we are co-operating with An Taisee in regard to local amenity walks and other facilities that might be made available.

Mr. Tully

The Minister for Lands said several months ago that the matter was under consideration.

Mr. Lemass

The Department of Lands, who deal with wild life, have not made any representations to us so far.

Mr. Tully

Perhaps they will as a result of these remarks.

Mr. Lemass

I hope so. I will deal later with parks and conservation generally. We hope to link up the Boyne Valley with the lakes of Leitrim and the caves in Cavan as a tourist amenity area. Perhaps the local authorities might take a close look at the Local Government Act by which they can declare an area to be a special amenity area. I do not think any local authority, not even the authority in Kerry, have declared any area to be a special amenity area. Perhaps this is because of the possible risks of not knowing in advance what would be the expenditure involved. It is my opinion that the entire Killarney area, for instance, should be declared a special amenity area.

Mr. Begley

If the Minister had read the Kerry county development plan he would not make a statement like that.

Mr. Lemass

The local authority have not declared a special amenity area.

Mr. Begley

I will send a copy of the plan to the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid the Deputy is out of touch.

Mr. Begley

It is the Parliamentary Secretary who is out of touch.

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid the Deputy is out of touch.

Mr. Begley

I am not. The Parliamentary Secretary should pay a flying visit there.

Mr. Lemass

I can get down to Kerry, and I can talk about the county council with some severity and sharpness if necessary. I can tell the House without fear of contradiction that the Killarney area has not been declared a special amenity area under the Local Government Act for the purpose of making it a special community area.

Mr. Begley

The Parliamentary Secretary is joking.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Tully was concerned about the danger of flooding in Navan this year. I understand there will be no danger of flooding in Navan this year attributable to the drainage works.

Mr. Tully

I wanted to know, because you were not doing anything between Navan and Drogheda, if there was danger that a build-up of water would occur and cause flooding?

Mr. Lemass

The advice of our engineers there is that there will be no danger of flooding in Navan this year. The Deputy also asked why we moved out to do the Blackwater instead of sticking to the main river. The Blackwater is being by-passed until a late stage of the work.

Mr. Tully

One of them is. There are two of them.

Mr. Lemass

I hope we are referring to the same one.

Mr. Tully

I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary is.

Mr. Lemass

This is at the instigation of the Fisheries Branch because it is a very important spawing river. Is that the right one?

Mr. Tully

No, it is the wrong one. You are by-passing that one. It is the other one I referred to.

Mr. Lemass

I will communicate with the Deputy about this. Several people referred to spoil, for instance, in Foxford. The Parks and Monuments Section are in discussion with Bord Fáilte to see if we might do something such as putting top soil over some of this rock spoil and, if you like, camouflaging it or making river walks out of it. In the Boyne Valley the Commissioners are very much aware of the difficulties which can arise from the deposit of spoil on the river banks. Unfortunately spoil is unavoidable in drainage work. Normally it is deposited as tidily as possible and where possible the wishes of the landowner are consulted as, for instance, whether he would prefer a narrow high heap or a wide low one. If the material is suitable, the spoil banks are seeded and in a very short time blend with the adjoining land and we have growth on them.

Mr. Tully

There is some spoil which will not grow anything and the Parliamentary Secretary must know this. The Boyne Valley will not cause any trouble because it is simply cleaning up obstructions in the river, all of which will be turned into good land. The soil which most of us have been talking about is called by various names, the sort of stuff they dig out of rocks, grout and other material which will not grow anything and which is an eyesore.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is quite right. We have different problems with different rivers and different drainage schemes. The Parks and Monuments Branch are in consultation with Bord Fáilte now to see if between them they can make a way to at least camouflage this spoil so that it will blend in with the ordinary scenic conditions of the area generally. The scenic areas and where this spoil is near groups of dwellings worry us mostly.

The greatest difficulty arises when the spoil consists of rock. Sometimes it can be disposed of to builders and also to local authorities for the making of foundations for roads or houses or for the filling in of old quarries. Unfortunately I am afraid the supply of rock spoil exceeds the demand. Arterial drainage work is costly and I am advised it would become an uneconomic proposition, and might even be phased out, if it became an obligation on the Commissioners of Public Works to take away all those spoil heaps. I believe it would make the whole question of drainage completely uneconomic.

Mr. Tully

They could not take it all away but they could fill in old quarries and holes.

Mr. Lemass

We do this as far as we can. I am trying to point out that the supply of rock spoil exceeds the demand for it.

Mr. Tully

Local authorities are glad to get it.

Mr. Lemass

Local authorities take it for filling in quarries and for foundations for new houses and builders take it for foundations for new houses. On the Moy where we had a great deal of rock I am afraid we left a lot of it around some of the scenic parks of the countryside and we cannot get anybody to take it away.

Mr. Tully

Indeed about 100 tons of it was left in the garden of a man with one acre and the fellows with 500 or 600 acres each side of him got none of it at all. This is the sort of thing which makes bad feeling.

Mr. Lemass

The point is that it is not our purpose to leave the country unsightly with spoil heaps. We will keep the matter under review to do as much as we reasonably can to clear those spoil heaps away. In the case of the Boyne, instructions have been given to pay particular attention to the question of spoil along the scenic sections of the river. It is not correct that we excluded the scenic and historic sections of the river and compensated the owners. Fortunately, along the main river below Navan relatively little excavation will be necessary and special steps will be taken to keep to a minimum interference with the scenic amenities of the area.

Mr. Tully

It is not that at all. The High Court prevented you from doing it. You cleaned the river all right.

Mr. Lemass

That matter was settled out of court.

Mr. Tully

If it had not gone to the court you would have had to change your plan. You would have done the same job as you did anywhere else.

Mr. Lemass

I am grateful to Deputy Tully for raising this matter of wild life, birds and so on, because this is a matter which I definitely will have considered now. We considered fisheries and before any work began the Drogheda conservators of fisheries submitted detailed proposals for the treatment of the Boyne during the drainage work. The Board of Works engineers considered those proposals and, in consultation with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries experts, worked out a timetable for the entire scheme, carefully phased to minimise the disturbance of fishing and of spawning areas. This provided that at any time during the course of the drainage works a very high proportion of the spawning and fishing areas would be free from interference. The timetable was explained to the board of conservators at a meeting in Drogheda in January, 1969, attended also by the Department's fishery engineer. The programme was broadly acceptable. It was promised at this meeting that the position would be reviewed each spring when the programme for the coming season, as it would affect fishing matters, could be discussed in greater detail.

When the programme for the 1970 season was being prepared it was found necessary to modify the original programme somewhat, advancing the date of some operations. In April, 1970, before this modification programme was put into effect, a meeting took place, as promised, between the resident engineer and the chairman of the board of conservators when the proposed changes in the programme were discussed in detail among many other matters. The chairman raised no objections to the changes and no other changes have been made.

Mr. Tully

Does the Parliamentary Secretary know of any special arrangement made about the net fishing end of it at the mouth of the Boyne where people earn their living as distinct from people who fish for pleasure.

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid I have not that information.

Mr. Tully

I thought you might have a note about it.

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid I have not got a note on net fishing. I have been looking at the Boyne as an amenity area. I think it is somewhat different from other schemes which we have because it has got some very important scenic and historic areas which I think have to be protected even though we must try and give the maximum benefit to the farmers around the area from the drainage programme. I did not even take into consideration, much to my own surprise, the question of wild life in the area but that matter will certainly be examined now.

Mr. Tully

The wild life is disappearing up the river and something will have to be done about it. The net fishing interest is important because people earn their living at the mouth of the river.

Mr. Lemass

Deputies Bruton, Tully and others raised the question of doing large scale arterial drainage works by contract. This has been thought of more than once by my predecessor and myself. There is no commercial construction firm in this country with the equipment and experience which would be necessary for the satisfactory execution of works of the magnitude of the drainage work——

Mr. Tully

I did not suggest that the arterial drainage work should be done by contract. I suggested that more of the contractors should be used on small schemes.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Bruton, I think, made this suggestion, and Deputy Tully was associated with it in a lesser way, if I may put it that way.

Mr. Tully

I am in favour of direct labour all the time.

Mr. Lemass

If the works were to be thrown open to contractors it is very likely that a foreign firm would be successful. The initial investment which would be necessary for the purchase of equipment and machinery would be so great that, in effect, the firm successful in the first contract would secure for themselves a monopoly in competing, for the future contracts of the Office of Public Works. The Office of Public Works have their own machinery, and the total expenditure on the purchase of machinery is something more than £2 million. There is no evidence that works could be done more expeditiously or satisfactorily by contract than by direct labour. Contract work was tried on some of the smaller schemes a few years ago and in so far as any definite conclusions can be drawn the experience suggests that there was no advantage in the contract work. A considerable proportion of the marine construction work, however, is done by contract; such places as Skerries and Kilmore Quay have been done by local contract.

Deputy Bruton, Deputy Coogan, as well as Deputy Tully, were concerned about the contractors in the Boyne Valley area. While inspecting major arterial drainage works throughout the country I was struck by the number of farms where field drainage schemes have been carried out with land project assistance. It was also obvious, unfortunately, that a number of farmers had not taken any such action, and this is disappointing. We cannot be happy that the full benefits of arterial drainage schemes are being obtained until all farmers have carried out suitable follow-up works.

Mr. Tully

The scheme must be done first.

Mr. Lemass

The Government are playing their part under the land project by means of well-designed field drainage schemes and a generous grant-in-aid, and the objective must be a 100 per cent follow-up by farmers whose land needs drainage as soon as arterial drainage provides the necessary outlets. To sum up, our experience has been that each time we do a major arterial drainage work there is follow-up work for the contractors under the land project. It may be that some farmers, in the hope of having their stream drained as an adjunct to the main scheme, are hanging back and that contractors in the Boyne area are at a loss at this time, but ultimately there will be more business available to them.

Mr. Tully

But they will not be able to live for six years. They had been doing land drainage but it stopped because of the Boyne. All I was saying was that something might be done to carry them over. It is not an easy task, but it could be considered; otherwise they will not be there when the job is finished.

Mr. Lemass

I think this is a matter between the farmers and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to be followed up under the land drainage project.

Mr. Tully

In five years time.

Mr. Lemass

It will take about two. Deputy Bruton asked that the Greetagh Bog be drained under the Boyne scheme. The scheme will provide an outfall to permit full development of the bog and of the townland of Greetagh. The matter of coast erosion was of special interest to Deputy Paddy Burke and to several other Deputies. At first I considered the allocation made under this heading to be generous. I agree it has taken some considerable time to get the Coast Protection Act of 1963 off the ground, but Murrough, Wicklow, is being done at a cost of £30,000 and 700 metres of the north Wicklow harbour are being protected generally by a slope of rock. Work on the front strand in Youghal, County Cork, is also under way, and the eastern half of the 700 metre long promenade is being protected by a stepped sea wall. This is expected to improve the beach facilities here as well, and the cost involved is £80,000. The Moville, County Donegal, scheme has been exhibited, and the cost here is £18,000. I hope we shall be able to seek sanction to proceed with this work in the next financial year. This is a rock slope which will protect the football field, River Row and the Ark. The Strandhill, County Sligo, scheme which has been prepared under the Coast Protection Act, 1963, is on exhibition at the County Secretary's Office, Courthouse, Teeling Street, Sligo. It comprises a rock slope protection in front of the car park, bathhouse, house property and adjacent land. Allowing for procedures under the Act, we can expect work to start next autumn. The Rossnowlagh, County Donegal, scheme which will be done at a cost of £17,000 is also on exhibition by the local authority, and this is a rock slope protection in front of a hotel and adjacent houses.

In all 52 proposals have been received and, taking into account the projected spending over the next few years and the availability of qualified staff, it will take many years before all these proposals can be reached. It is clear to me that this problem is of much greater magnitude than was at first envisaged, and even to acquire an organisation large enough to deal with the problem at a faster rate would take time. I have asked the responsible officials in the Office of Public Works to re-examine this entire matter and I hope I shall be in a position to make a report to the Minister for Finance with a view to having a submission made to the Government which will enable the commissioners to deal with this very serious problem faster than it has been possible to do so in the recent past.

The following preliminary surveys have been carried out: Waterville, County Kerry; Ballygannon, Skerries and Garrettstown. These are schemes on which it is hoped some progress will be made in the next financial year, but it is not possible to set a date for dealing with these. I should like to make it very clear that, even if the Government and the Minister for Finance make additional funds available to us, that is not the entire solution to the problem. This requires very special technical qualifications for the engineers, and the recruitment of a greater staff than we have at the moment might present major difficulties. However, so far as I am concerned, all of these 52 proposals before me could reasonably be described as urgent, and I would prefer if the Government would deal with the matter as quickly as possible and perhaps reduce their spending at a later stage. The Department of Finance stipulated when the Bill was going through that each scheme should be examined critically from an economic, amenity, tourist, and regional planning viewpoint as well as from the overall financial viewpoint.

With regard to fishery harbour development I am very sad that Deputy P. O'Donnell is no longer with us. He was constantly talking about the development of Burtonport.

Mr. Begley

By-elections count.

Mr. Lemass

A survey of Burtonport has been completed and we are now preparing up-to-date estimates for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. When they are approved we must obtain the sanction of the Department of Finance after which it will be necessary to prepare drawings and specifications and obtain county council approval. Work can commence when lodgment of the county council's contribution, which is to be 25 per cent, is made. I expect this work to commence in the summer of 1971.

Mr. Begley

Twenty-five per cent is a very high contribution from a county council.

Mr. Lemass

The county council have agreed to pay this as a result of discussions. In fact, that agreement was made as far back as March, 1969. We have already spent £95,700 on preliminary work.

When I was in Burtonport some months ago I had the pleasure of boarding the Asgard. I should like to thank Deputy Browne for the remarks he made about this historic vessel. The Government are glad to be associated with her preservation and intend to continue to vote a grant for her upkeep. I should like to offer my heartful thanks to the committee who have put her to such a full and useful occupation.

Deputies Hogan, Coughlan and Desmond referred to other marine works. I shall deal first with Dún Laoghaire. As a result of the continued exhortations of Deputy Andrews, nearly all the requirements of the fishermen have been provided or are in course of being provided at Dún Laoghaire. I am glad his confidence has not been misplaced as is shown by increased landings. The flashing beacon at the end of Coal Quay is in full working order. Some minor repairs are necessary to the surface of Coal Quay and these will be carried out shortly. The customs buildings, fence and checkpoint of the temporary car ferry terminal have been removed.

The future of the stern dolphins, approach bridge and the bailey bridge, the syncrolift and link-span is to be the subject of further discussions with the Department of Transport and Power. When Deputy Childers was Minister for Transport and Power he gave an undertaking to this House about the East Pier at Dún Laoghaire and, as far as I am concerned, I am anxious to see those undertakings fulfilled. It has been suggested that part of the additions to the East Pier might be of amenity benefit to the area and this is the subject of discussion between the Department of Transport and Power, Bord Fáilte and my Department. I expect a decision to be made early next year and I hope by April some of these things will have been removed. Toilet facilities are being provided for the fishermen.

Rossaveel pier in Connemara has been mentioned in the course of this debate. I received a deputation, which included the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Geoghegan, who has continuously pressed me on this matter. It is a big scheme and preliminary boring, surveying and presentation of documents inevitably take time. Work is proceeding on the design but I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries was down there recently and has under consideration a request for a 40 feet extension to the original proposal. Unless the proposed extension causes delay work should commence in the next financial year.

Mr. Coogan

Does the Parliamentary Secretary have the document which was issued by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries before the general election? It was a promise that if the people voted Fianna Fáil they would have a pier.

Mr. Lemass

The pier is being proceeded with. I hope the Deputy is not annoyed about that?

Mr. Coogan

I am annoyed about the way Fianna Fáil try to pull wool over the people's eyes. It is like the Shannon Scheme, a waste of time.

Mr. Lemass

I dealt with Shannon last week. Deputy O'Sullivan wants to know why our workers are paid less than county council workers. I presume the Deputy is referring to minor marine workers. They are paid the same rate as county council workers in the area. If the Deputy is referring to major marine works such as Castletownbere, workers are paid a higher rate than county council workers. The Office of Public Works have a national rate for drainage workers; the county council rate varies. In fact, our rate is higher than the lowest county council rate and lower than the highest, but approximately two-thirds of our drainage workers get incentive bonuses in addition to the flat rate.

Mr. Tully

A number of them do not have long service which means they cannot get service pay. This sometimes makes a difference of a £1 a week.

Mr. Lemass

I wondered if Deputy O'Sullivan was anxious to have the rate of pay of Office of Public Works workers reduced to the level of county council workers, but I doubt if that was his aim.

As Deputies are aware, a survey of small harbours on the western coast is being carried out. The survey team are at present operating in County Cork. The survey team were set up by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries in March, 1970 to investigate and report on fishing ports and landing places on the western seaboard. The team consists of representatives from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, Roinn na Gaeltachta, the Office of Public Works, Cork County Council, Bord Iascaigh Mhara and Bord Fáilte. Some inspections have been made, and it is expected a report will be ready in December, 1970. It will be submitted with recommendations to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

Deputy Bruton wanted to know exactly what was done under the heading of Economic Development Works included in the Estimate. These would generally include other fishery harbour schemes including Kilmore Quay, County Wexford; Skerries, County Dublin; Killala, County Mayo; Darby's Point, County Mayo; Reen, County Cork, and a score of smaller projects. Works at Dingle, County Kerry will start as soon as some legal difficulties have been resolved.

Mr. Tully

As a matter of interest, how much is being spent on Skerries?

Mr. Lemass

I have not the actual figures but it was in the newspapers last night. Preliminary boring surveys have been completed at Burtonport, which I have already referred to and Rossaveel, County Galway. It is hoped to commence work at those centres next year and a number of others in the west coast counties including Moville and Tory Island, County Donegal; Portahaulia, County Mayo; Cleggan, Emlaghmore and Roundstone, County Galway and Cahirciveen, County Kerry.

I should like to deal with national monuments and some of the questions raised about them. I realise that it is most important to step up the guide service, but certain skills in the provision of such services are essential. To provide a poor booklet, for example, would only lead to more complaints than if there were none at all. If the archaeological staff recently recruited have an aptitude for this work then the issue of booklets will be extended. I think Deputies will find the recent booklet issued on Derrynane Abbey most satisfactory. I think we now have the technical ability to bring out a book of this quality not only for that monument but for other monuments as well. At the moment we are preparing a similar quality booklet on Dublin Castle; in the meantime we have issued a small hand-out for the tourist season in relation to the castle.

Deputy Seán Moore was concerned about the provision of more toilets at national monuments. A number of these monuments have been selected in consultation with Bord Fáilte and the National Monuments Advisory Council and these will get priority in the provision of amenities, including toilets. So far 20 such monuments are to receive attention.

Deputy O.J. Flanagan referred to Clonmacnoise. Many tributes have been paid to the work carried out there. We have had discussions with Bord Fáilte and the county council with a view to the proper preservation of Clonmacnoise. It is included as one of the 20 major national monuments selected by us in consultation with Bord Fáilte and the National Monuments Advisory Council for treatment. Not only does it merit distinction but we will maintain and develop it so that all our people can visit it with greater pride.

Deputy Tully raised the question of Tara. The acquisition of the land is a matter which is sub judice and consequently I cannot comment beyond saying that the price will be settled by arbitration. It is not a question of offering to pay enough and I doubt if it will cost as much as the £50,000 Deputy Bruton seemed to imply.

Deputy Tully also referred to the need for a café at Newgrange.

Mr. Tully

Would the Parliamentary Secretary make some effort to try to have this place properly marked again — it used to be at one time — so that visitors can see where the various halls were? There is a pretty bad statue of St. Patrick and it should, I think, be replaced by a decent one.

Mr. Lemass

As far as I recollect, the marking was carried out by moneys provided by Bord Fáilte. I think the Deputy and I will be at one in saying that the thing to do is for the State to acquire the monument. We can then proceed to make it presentable.

Mr. Tully

At the moment it means practically nothing to visitors.

Mr. Lemass

I know. I have been down there many a time. As I said, the Deputy also referred to the need for a café at Newgrange and said the Office of Public Works was under an obligation to put a café there in view of the large number of visitors. There was a meeting early this year between Bord Fáilte, the county council and the National Monuments Advisory Committee and agreement was reached on a suitable site for a restaurant and other tourist amenities. The site will be a little bit away from the monument, but this is necessary to ensure that any such development will not adversely affect the attraction of this great monument having regard to the ultimate form of presentation proposed for it.

Mr. Tully

When this was agreed two years ago the Office of Public Works was the only body to refuse to allow the café recommended by Bord Fáilte to be erected.

Mr. Lemass

It was a question of siting, having regard to the final presentation of the monument. As the Deputy knows, stones were carried from various parts of the country. A cement foundation has now been put underneath. It is felt that any building immediately within view of the monument itself would be undesirable and agreement has now been reached on a site a short distance away. One will not see the two at the same time.

Mr. Tully

My information is that this was to be done before this.

Mr. Lemass

The original proposals were opposed by the Office of Public Works. Subsequently, as a result of discussions, a compromise was reached.

Mr. Tully

The people who were in the area moved away.

Mr. Lemass

A café and other facilities will be provided a short distance away.

Mr. Tully

What about the back? Will the other side be excavated?

Mr. Lemass

There is still a good deal of work to be done.

Mr. Tully

Work is being done on one portion.

Mr. Lemass

I understand a second entrance was found this year and, as a result of this, they will be able to calculate where other entrances may have been. The Deputy may be pleased to know that the Roman soldiers in Britain used to come here on holidays because Roman coins have been found in the area; even in the time of the Roman Empire the Deputy's constituency was a tourist amenity area.

Mr. Tully

Long before the Roman Empire it was the centre of civilisation and it still is.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Desmond and Deputy O.J. Flanagan referred to the publicising of national monuments. We joined with Bord Fáilte in publishing a guide book and a new guide book was published recently. Promotional work is the function of Bord Fáilte in the main. We have been using our own publication, Oibre, and certain brochures and booklets to publicise national monuments also. I hope to increase this work in the future.

Deputy Burke was concerned about St. Patrick's Island off Skerries. In the light of existing knowledge it does not seem as if there are likely to be archaeological remains there and we cannot, therefore, declare the whole island a national monument. The church is, of course, a national monument. Perhaps the Deputy could arrange for himself and a few of his friends to do a "dig" and, if they find some archaeological remains, we will be glad to take the island over.

Dr. O'Donovan

Otherwise, it will be left to the rats.

Mr. Lemass

Without the rats.

Mr. Tully

There are no votes in there, so the Parliamentary Secretary will not bother.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Moore referred to the old walls of Dublin. We asked Dublin Corporation if they would preserve the old wall brought to light in the excavations at Winetavern Street. They have not yet replied formally but I understand they intend to do so. It will be a feature of the new building and people will be able to go in and inspect it. A similar job was done in, I think, Cologne.

When works in progress at Mellifont Abbey are completed in a week or two conservation work will commence on St. John's Castle, Trim. That will probably be next week or the week after.

Mr. Tully

Good.

Mr. Lemass

The question was raised of liaison with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Department of Lands to ensure ancient monuments will not be destroyed. We have such a liaison. The problem is more one of identification and getting people to accept the importance of preserving such monuments. The archaeological survey will be speeded up when all monuments are recorded and graded. This will help considerably in deciding on a policy of preservation. The commissioners have on their staff a special archaeologist to deal with these matters.

Deputy Cooney referred to Clontuskert Abbey in Galway. We took this monument into guardianship in 1964. Later the deed was found to be inoperative because the landowner's title was defective. It turned out that Galway County Council owned the abbey and the burial ground in which it is situated. The Office of Public Works are prepared to take the monument into their charge and they are in communication with the county council in regard to the matter. They are not empowered to undertake any work on monuments that are not in their care.

I should like to explain that the archaeological survey is in two parts: first, the inventory of all monuments and, secondly, a scientific survey of each monument. We are covering all the monuments in part 1 but we have not been able to make much progress in part 2 in relation to post-1200 A.D. monuments. Those are architectural monuments and there is reluctance on the part of architects to accept employment on work that would involve only surveying. We are reorganising the work in an effort to remedy the situation.

In relation to public parks, there has been some controversy about the closure of St. Enda's. While there will be a considerable lapse of time before all the work is carried out, a general tidying-up of the grounds is in progress and we hope to open part of the grounds to the public next summer. This will be confined to part of the grounds for reasons of public safety.

Deputy Oliver Flanagan inquired about the Garda station at Crinkle, Birr. I should like to inform the Deputy that the station, apart from two small areas used by the Department of Defence for FCA purposes and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, has been sold—following public advertisement.

Deputy Moore considered that areas around Dublin and Wicklow should be designated as national parks. We are very interested in this proposal and we have had correspondence with the regional tourist organisation on the subject. It has been agreed to have discussion with them when we have made more progress in the Kilkenny national park area. Our organisation in this sphere is new and needs to be built up to handle the large increase in activity in the field of recreational facilities, archaeology and conservation. We should like to see a national park area in the regions around Dublin and would be happy if the State would acquire certain portions as national parks.

Deputy Hogan suggested that the Shannon navigation should be the function of Bord Fáilte. I should like to put it on the record that Bord Fáilte do not own, manage or develop property. Their function is the promotion of tourist traffic and in this respect they give grants. The Office of Public Works are a State organisation; their function is to hold, manage and develop property. This is our function on the navigation of the River Shannon and I will say more on this subject later.

The press have made the point that it is not clear which body should be responsible in the matter of conservation. I should like to put on record the division of responsibility in this regard, as I understand it. First, there is the Department of Lands who are in charge of forestry, general woodlands, wild life and forest parks, and the Minister for Lands inaugurated Conservation Year, 1970, in this country. Next, we have the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries who are responsible for fresh water habitats. Bord na Móna have responsibility for bogs; Foras Forbartha maintain habitats not covered by Bord Fáilte and Bord na Móna. An Foras Talúntais have responsibility in relation to heaths, moors, items of geological interest and soil types. The Office of Public Works are in charge of parks of scenic, historic or recreational value, the River Shannon navigation and the study of artistic, architectural and archaeological monuments. CIE are responsible for the Grand and Royal Canals, and the Department of Local Government have general responsibility for planning control of amenities et cetera under the Planning Acts.

There has been a suggestion that all matters relating to conservation should be the responsibility of one body but I suggest this might give rise to even greater problems. Perhaps there could be some changes for the better but the present areas of responsibility are reasonably clear and I hope I have clarified the matter for those who might have been confused. To me, the Department of Local Government appear the appropriate Department to be concerned with the management of technological problems and with environmental resources in specific fields such as water, air, pesticides, transportation, noise and urban development. By including pesticides in this list I have in mind water pollution. Industrial and human waste are turning many of our rivers into open sewers. Until the Dodder scheme commenced recently, no main sewerage scheme had been undertaken in Dublin since 1909. In most towns of less than 10,000 inhabitants sewage is disposed of directly into rivers. There is a major task ahead and it seems to me that the Department of Local Government have the technical staff and expertise best suited to tackle this problem.

In the meantime, a high level interdepartmental committee has been set up to examine and report on all aspects of water and air pollution, including co-ordination of activities, the adequacy of existing legislation and the need for new legislation.

The Department of Lands are doing first-class work under the present Minister. I am pleased to say that whatever differences of opinion have arisen about forest parks and national parks we have resolved at local level. We are setting up joint committees representing each Department at the local level. I should like to give my interpretation of the difference between national and forest parks. A forest park is an area acquired for the growing of, and commercial cropping of, timber. Those areas have, as their secondary purpose, recreational facilities and as such play their part in the preservation of the quality of life.

National parks are areas acquired by the State for the purpose of preservation and management because of their scenic, historic, scientific, archaeological or recreational importance. Many of those have large wooded areas but the woods are managed for their scenic and scientific value and are not cropped commercially. It has been laid down internationally that in a national park neither the fauna nor the flora can be cropped for commercial purposes.

With regard to CIE, the transfer of the Grand Canal to the Office of Public Works as an extension of Shannon navigation is logical. I hope the Government will introduce legislation before long in order to give effect to this proposal and also to empower CIE to reclaim the Royal Canal, which does not serve a useful purpose as a navigable waterway. By definition a national monument is man-made. There have not been any new proposals to erect a cable car at Killarney——

Mr. Tully

Did I understand the Minister to say that a national monument is man-made?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Tully

What about Tara?

Mr. Lemass

That is what Deputy Hugh Byrne said. In this instance I am more concerned about the matter of the cable cars in the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park and I should like to state that there are no such proposals before us. Some very good suggestions were made by Deputy J. O'Leary and these will have to be considered very carefully. We are aware that there are pockets of land adjacent to the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park and Derrynane which it would be desirable to acquire for public ownership in order to preserve the amenities of these parks. Let me assure the House that we have development plans in mind for the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park which will involve opening up further scenic routes. The question of speeding up the archaeological survey is under active consideration.

Deputy T. O'Donnell raised the matter of a grant-in-aid for An Taisce. This grant, borne on our vote, is for the purpose of a survey of great gardens, historic houses and provincial museums. These premises are not in receipt of any other subvention from the State.

I would like to come now to the Phoenix Park. I do not know whether the Deputies are aware that the Dublin Golf Club, now the Royal Dublin Golf Club, had an 18-hole course in the Phoenix Park in 1885.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Lemass

I was dealing with national parks generally and I come now to deal with the Phoenix Park. I asked were Deputies aware that the Dublin Golf Club, now known as the Royal Dublin Golf Club, had an 18-hole course in the Phoenix Park in 1885. At that time it was proposed to add a further 27 holes. It is a fact that the British Army played golf in Phoenix Park at that time.

Deputy Noel Browne referred to the Inchicore North-Longmeadows Estate. It had been acquired as far back as 1905. The Deputy seems to be critical of the fact that it has taken up to now to have it developed. The area was acquired with the object of protecting it against undesirable development which would detract from the Phoenix Park itself. It has undoubtedly served that purpose. Is it not a good thing that it is now available for the purpose of development and to provide desirable modern amenities? With a view to preparing a proper scheme for the development of this area, a firm of landscape architects have been engaged. They have made certain recommendations to my Department. These are being considered in conjunction with Dublin Corporation and the landscape architects attached to the Office of Public Works with a view to presenting acceptable proposals to the Government.

In addition to the public golf course which has been mentioned, Deputy Tunney made some reference to a charge. There is no question of deciding a charge.

Mr. Tully

Someone mentioned the figure of 10s.

Mr. Briscoe

There was a report about a 10s charge for a 9-hole round.

Mr. Lemass

Even the decision to have a golf course has not been arrived at. It is premature to decide what the charges will be.

Mr. Tully

I think the Parliamentary Secretary was the one who mentioned the 10s charge.

Mr. Lemass

The standard charge at municipal courses in England is between 6s and 10s.

Mr. Tully

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned 10s.

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps I did for 18 holes. If the charge was 10s for 9 holes the Office of Public Works would make a nice little profit. In addition to the public golf course outdoor recreation will be the dominant or primary purpose of the park. The scenic merits of the area will not only be preserved but enhanced. Among the activities which have been suggested for consideration are swimming and aquatic sports, children's pastimes, picnicking, handball, basketball, bowling, et cetera, and a 9-hole pitch and putt course. Some Deputies referred to the swimming pool. This matter will be considered, but the cost will be very heavy. The swimming pool may be provided later. It is not under immediate consideration. It would have to be of international standards and suitable for conversion to other uses.

With reference to Deputy O.J. Flanagan's views on these proposals I hope that the people of Laois-Offaly will avail of the facilities of the golf course, if and when it is provided. I hope that it will prove to be the first of many such courses throughout the country. It will give me great pleasure to invite the Deputy and his friends to avail of this amenity on the first day on which the course is open. The proposed amenities are not just for the citizens of Dublin. The area could include an international camping site for the enjoyment of people from overseas.

Deputy Tunney referred to the arrangements made about the manning of the gates in Phoenix Park. Arrangements were made this summer to have all entrance gates manned between 7 a.m. and 6 p.m. It is hoped to consider at a later stage the question of the employment of motor-cycle patrols. The trade unions, the Department of Finance and the inter-departmental wages advisory council would all be involved in this matter. The employment of motor-cycle patrols would affect the number of constables and gatekeepers in the Phoenix Park.

Horse riding is accepted as a desirable form of recreation in Phoenix Park. It has grown considerably in recent years. The question of exercising control over it has been receiving attention. We have had correspondence with the riding schools but it is becoming evident that an amendment of the bye-laws is necessary to enable proper control to be exercised. This matter is in hands. Deputy Eugene Timmons was concerned about the number of cattle grazing in the park. I am glad to tell him that the number of cattle grazing in the park has been reduced from 900 to about 400 over the past two years. We are phasing out slowly and keeping a close watch on the effects on grass growth. If we can phase out economically without a serious overgrowth of grass we will do so.

Deputy Luke Belton asked if motorists are required to be covered by insurance while driving in the Park. Under the Phoenix Park Act, 1925, the Commissioners are bound to main tain the Park as a public park. Under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, a public place means, inter alia, a place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission. The Phoenix Park is, therefore, such a public place. Under section 56 of the said Road Traffic Act a person is forbidden to use in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle unless, to quote the relevant portion, it is insured. The answer is, therefore, yes.

The same Deputy asked who would be responsible if a child were hurt in the Phoenix Park by a horse from one of the riding schools. It is understood that the riding schools display notices disclaiming liability. In reply, the Phoenix Park is State property and is not vested in the Commissioners. The Phoenix Park Act of 1925 vests in them the control and management of the Park but they exercise it only as servants of the State. That being the position and, in the present state of the law, the Commissioners would be entitled to plead the State's immunity in tort should any action be brought against them in the circumstances set out.

It does not necessarily follow that any person would be liable. Unless there is an absolute liability imposed on a person — for example, making by statute a motorist liable for an accident even though it is not his fault— a person is liable only if he is negligent or has assumed liability by agreement. In the case of a child, a greater degree of care towards the child would be required of a horseman than towards an adult. Prima facie, if a ridden horse injured a person, the rider would be liable if he had been negligent and so caused the injury. But other people's negligence might have contributed to the accident, for example, the person who had hired out a “wicked” horse without warning, the person who had negligently frightened the horse, and so on. In other words, the ordinary law relating to accidents would obtain.

Deputy Hugh Byrne raised the question of the condition of pitches in the Park. I have received no complaints regarding the condition of the pitches. The areas around the goalposts are resurfaced regularly. The same Deputy also asked about railings broken in the cricket plot. The railings referred to are those which surround the Civil Service Cricket Club. Maintenance of the railings is a matter for the club. At the request of the Commissioners, the club have arranged to erect a new railings and I understand this work is now completed. The Commissioners have instructed the club to have the old railings, part of which are decayed, removed as soon as possible.

When introducing my Estimate last year, I referred to the feasibility of a blind people's centre in one of the Dublin parks. This has been investigated and a small centre in St. Stephen's Green Park has since been developed. It is, I think, located probably not too far from the bandstand but beyond that I am not prepared to say where its location is. If the centre proves popular with blind people, consideration will be given to providing a similar amenity in Phoenix Park. Before proceeding with this proposal, we obtained the views of the following bodies: the National Council for the Blind of Ireland; the National League of the Blind of Ireland; the Irish Association for the Blind; St. Mary's School for the Blind, Merrion, Dublin and Fr. Spillane, St. Joseph's School for Blind Boys, Drumcondra. A children's playground has been provided in St. Stephen's Green, as well, and it has been so successful that I hope to extend this type of facility to Phoenix Park before long.

As I announced recently, the contract system for the supply of workmen for the maintenance of State buildings in Dublin came to an end in August. The system has existed since before the turn of the century. I should like to put on record my thanks to the firms who have held the contracts from time to time for the service and the co-operation they have given to the Commissioners. On transfer, the men are eligible for improved sick leave concessions and improved superannuation benefits.

Mr. Tully

Will their service with the contractors doing this work count for pension purposes?

Mr. Lemass

Yes. In particular, they are eligible for the pension scheme mentioned by the Taoiseach in the Budget speech. Approximately 350 men are involved. I think it was Deputy Keating who was probably the most critical speaker here. He suggested that the OPW was using old methods and were inefficient. His implication is completely unjustified. About half a dozen years ago we employed management consultants and, as a result of the reorganisation carried out on their advice, we have a much more efficient service and we have effected a saving in the region of £50,000 a year. We get an average of 750 requisitions for work each week involving as many as 13 different skills. These works have to be done in a variety of different sequences in about 500 buildings in Dublin.

In order to demonstrate just how efficient we are, and to do away with the jibes such as those made by Deputy Kenny about the typical OPW job, I have decided to invite all Deputies in the Greater Dublin area and from any other place who wish to come along, to inspect the CEW in Inchicore. I should like the Deputies to come to see the position for themselves before casting a reflection on the ability of the workers or management within the OPW. I look forward to meeting them up there in the not too distant future.

Mr. Tully

Would the Parliamentary Secretary care to comment on what has happened with regard to the Broad Meadow River? Is maintenance being carried out on that river?

Mr. Lemass

I thought I dealt with that last week.

Mr. Tully

The Parliamentary Secretary did not say whether maintenance would be carried out.

Mr. Lemass

I have not brought in last week's notes.

Mr. Tully

Would the Parliamentary Secretary let me know what is happening?

Mr. Lemass

I understand that the Broad Meadow River is being maintained in the ordinary way.

Mr. Tully

That is not my information. There is another river, affecting County Meath, which is also the subject of complaint. This is a matter which should be given attention. Indeed I wish to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on the very detailed way in which he has replied to the debate on the Estimate for the OPW——

Mr. Begley

Hear, hear.

Mr. Lemass

I recollect having referred to it last week. If the Deputy will let me have particulars, I shall be only too happy to go into the matter.

Mr. Tully

I shall give particulars in regard to the two rivers. The Parliamentary Secretary has done a very good job on this.

Mr. Begley

I wish to be associated with that tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary.

Question: "That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration", by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.