asked the Minister for Education if he will make a full statement on the present situation with respect to the National College of Art and of any plans he has to introduce reforms in the administration and operation of the college.
20.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - National College of Art.
19.
asked the Minister for Education when the new Governing Board for the National College of Art will be established; and what representation staff and students will have on this board.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 19 and 20 together.
Legislation is in the course of preparation regarding the future administration of the National College of Art. I hope to be in a position to seek approval for the introduction of that legislation in the current session. I do not feel that it would be appropriate that I should announce details of the legislation in advance of its introduction.
The present unfortunate position in the National College of Art is that there are a number of students in the college who are apparently bent on disrupting the normal functioning of the college. My task is to ensure that those students who want to pursue their studies are allowed to do so.
Does the Minister not agree that tomorrow is the third anniversary of his predecessor's promise to establish such a governing board within one month? Subsequently that was changed to an advisory council. The advisory council subsequently recommended that an executive body should be set up to deal with the problem and this was not accepted. Will he not accept that there is great urgency about solving this problem, and that the unrest in the college arises out of the long delay in taking any decision on the matter?
What I have said is that I am hoping to seek permission to introduce the Bill in this session. Whatever about what happened in the past, that is the present position. With regard to the agitation, of course this has been going on for a considerable time. The origins this year are exactly the same as they were in the past. It is not by any means the spontaneous thing it appears to be. I might add that the pattern of agitation appears to be very much the same also. In 1969, plaster casts were destroyed to the value of £5,000. Some of these were irreplaceable. I have not got the figures for the repairs in that year. In 1970, £499 was paid to make good damage done by the students. This year further damage has been done. I have asked the Office of Public Works to give me an estimate of what it would cost to make good this damage and I have been informed that it will cost £1,300.
I hope that the Deputy—and I am sure he is not—is not suggesting that this is responsible behaviour or peaceful agitation. Surely he does not believe that this type of conduct is conducive to my putting students on an autonomous board to govern the college. Does he believe that those who are responsible for this type of thing are, in fact, really desirous of improving the College of Art?
I do not accept some of the Minister's statement because I recall last year hearing from him the value of the damage done and the property stolen and it transpired subsequently that those figures were incorrect and that the property had not been stolen at all. I should like to hear the two sides of the case before making up my mind. Will the Minister consult with the staff and students before introducing this legislation? This is of vital importance. It is absolutely useless introducing a governing board which is unacceptable to the staff and students. I should like to know what consultations have taken place and, if there have not been consultations, will there be consultations before the legislation is introduced?
We have had some consultations. If the teachers meet as a body and elect a deputation or delegation to meet me I will certainly arrange to see them. With regard to the students, if I were to meet them it would be only on the basis of meeting a balanced group so that I could hear both sides of the case. I met the students some time ago, as did my predecessor, and no worthwhile discussion took place because the only proposal they put up was in essence that I would hand over the College of Art to themselves and the teachers, that they would run the college as they thought fit, and that I would pay the bills. In present circumstances I can see considerable difficulty in having a representative deputation of students coming to see me.
I cannot recognise the students' proposals in the form stated by the Minister but could I ask him if what he describes as a balanced group—by which I presume is meant a delegation elected by all the students —emerges and elects a body would the Minister be prepared to discuss the matter with that body?
There are elections and elections.
We on this side of the House know that.
A facade of democracy is not sufficient. I want to be assured that if I am to meet a delegation it will be really representative of the students. Last year I agreed to meet a deputation from the students. I stated at that time that I wanted to meet a balanced group to hear all the views put forward. An election took place and it was rather peculiar that all the members of this deputation were students whom I had previously had to suspend because of the activities in the college around that period. Is it suggested that I would get a balanced viewpoint in relation to the future of the College of Art from such a delegation?
I will have to swallow the Minister's tremendous sympathy for and understanding of the students and then I will ask a supplementary.
Would the Minister not agree that the National College of Art is unique in being the only educational institution which is directly under the control of the Department of Education and that the Department appoint the vast majority of the part-time staff without advertisements? Would he further agree that this dispute has been going on for three years and that virtually identical answers have been given to questions by Deputy Desmond, Deputy FitzGerald and myself to the one he has just given? What does the Minister mean in speaking of a three years dispute when he says that the pattern has not been dissimilar in agitation and that it is not as spontaneous as it appears to be to the public? What precisely does that innuendo mean?
The Deputy can work that out for himself.
Reds under the bed.
I want to ask——
Would the Deputy allow me to reply to Deputy Thornley?
I am calling Question No. 21.
On what basis does the Minister value the plaster casts at £5,000? Who valued them for him?
We cannot discuss these questions all evening.
May I answer Deputy Thornley's question, Sir?
I want to put a supplementary.
I studied this whole matter and I accepted that the Department of Education could not be sufficiently flexible to administer the College of Art. So, I decided to set up an autonomous board to govern the college. I have already stated in my reply that I hope to request permission to introduce the legislation this session. I must add——
The Minister will not get that kind of legislation through.
I am sure the students will be pleased to hear that. I want to add that the teachers and students are very will aware of this and have been for some time. In fact, Deputy O'Leary of the Labour Party asked me a question in relation to it some time ago and I told him——
Three years ago they were aware of it.
It was not three years ago. I have not been Minister for three years. I replied recently to a question by Deputy O'Leary of the Labour Party and I told him this. They are also aware that an architect was commissioned some time ago to design a new College of Art.
The Minister has not answered my third question.
We will raise it on the Adjournment.
The Deputy may raise it whenever he wishes.
I should like to put a supplementary question.
I have a final supplementary when it is my turn.
This is unreasonable.
It is not unreasonable.
We are taking Questions Nos. 19 and 20 together.
Who is objecting?
The Chair is objecting. There are 84 questions by other Deputies.
The Chair can say what it likes.
Deputies may not say what they like.
The way we run this place is no model for the running of the College of Art. Might I suggest to the Minister that he should receive a joint deputation from the teachers and students and forget his appalling suspicions of the students in this college— this so-called college if I may put it that way?
Would the Minister be prepared to state he will receive a deputation without conditions as to how these students select their delegation? They have a democratic right to select whoever they wish and I am quite sure that he and the college authorities can arrange for a democratic election to be held in the college so that students and teachers would be effectively represented on such a deputation. If he would only meet people and talk to them——
The Deputy is entitled to put a question.
I have already met the students. Nobody can suggest I am anti-student. I am the first Minister to put students on the governing body of universities, and the Deputy's simulated sympathy for the students does not impress me one bit.
If arrangements can be made to have an election by the students and if it can be so supervised as to satisfy the Minister that it is a valid election, if Deputy Thornley and myself take steps to see to that and the students agree that that should be done, would the Minister accept such a delegation then?
How would you decide this? On the previous occasion I explained to the Deputy what happened. I then got a letter signed by a considerable number of students to say that the views expressed by this particular deputation ran completely contrary to what they felt about it. I would like to have seen some of both sides on the deputation to meet me. If that could be arranged I would agree, but I want to be assured that it will be a properly balanced deputation and one with which we can have a proper type of discussion.
If Deputy Thornley and myself can arrange for the election of a delegation in such circumstances that the election is above reproach and there can be no question about it, will the Minister then receive such a deputation?
One man one vote, that is all that is in it.
There is very much more in it.
If, as alleged by the Minister, the students have caused wanton damage to this public property amounting to some thousands of pounds, were any of the students prosecuted? Were they brought before the courts?
There were no prosecutions.
If the Minister is so positive that the damage was caused by the students, why were there no prosecutions? Surely no one in this State should be allowed to damage property owned by the taxpayers without being brought to justice?
I agree fully with the Deputy. It was not possible to identify the individuals concerned. It was quite obvious, when a group of students were inside the college for a number of days and when everything was in order before they went in and smashed when they came out, who did the damage but it was not possible to identify individuals.
I asked a supplementary question earlier in this discussion and I did not get an answer: on what basis were plaster casts which were stated to be destroyed valued at £5,000?
This estimate was given to me and I am quite satisfied to accept it.
Might I ask the Minister——
I will allow no further discussion on this. I have already allowed 20 minutes on the Deputy's questions.
I will consider the proposal put to me but only in a changed form.
I will discuss it with the Minister afterwards.
21.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of each of the years since 1960-61 in relation to the National College of Art (a) how many permanent teaching posts existed and (b) how many were filled.
23.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of each of the past six years what vacant posts have been advertised in the National College of Art.
A Cheann Comhairle, I propose with your permission, to take Questions Nos. 21 and 23 together. The answer is in the form of a tabular statement which, with your permission, I intend to circulate with the Official Report.
Following is the statement:—
|
Number of permanent Teaching posts at National College of Art |
||
|
Number of posts |
Number filled |
|
|
1960-61 |
7 |
3 |
|
1961-62 |
7 |
4 |
|
1962-63 |
7 |
4 |
|
1963-64 |
7 |
7 |
|
1964-65 |
7 |
7 |
|
1965-66 |
8 |
8 |
|
1966-67 |
8 |
8 |
|
1967-68 |
14 |
7 |
|
1968-69 |
14 |
8 |
|
1969-70 |
14 |
7 |
|
1970-71 |
14 |
7 |
NOTE: A competition for six posts was held in 1967 by the Civil Service Commissioners. This competition was confined to the parttime teachers. Three appointments were made. Because of the decision to transfer the administration of the College to an autonomous Board it was decided to make no permanent appointments pending the establishment of that Board.
Am I correct in thinking that there are, at the moment, 17 permanent teaching posts of which six are filled and that no permanent teaching posts have been advertised for at least seven years?
No, that is not correct. There are 14 posts of which seven are filled.
Half of them are unfilled?
There are seven filled. It is the same thing.
For how long have they been unfilled?
For some time. The Deputy will get the full information in the tabular statement.
22.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of each of the years 1960-61, 1964-65, 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-71 in relation to the National College of Art the amount provided for full-time and part-time staff salaries and allowances and the amount spent; and if he will explain any difference between the two figures.
The compilation of the information required by the Deputy will take some further time. If he repeats his question next week I would hope to be in a position to supply this information.
24.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of each of the years 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-71 in relation to the National College of Art (a) the amount provided for scholarships and prizes, (b) the amount actually spent and (c) the reasons for the differences between provisions and expenditure.
The amounts provided for scholarships in these years were £2,450, £2,500 and £2,700 respectively. The corresponding expenditure was £1,568, £1,031 and £1,410.
The reason why the amount provided for scholarships in the years in question was not expended was due to the fact that applicants of the required merit were not forthcoming and that a number of scholarships were discontinued because the holders left the college or failed to complete their examinations.
Does the Minister not agree it is extraordinary that roughly half the scholarships are not taken up in a college where many of the students are having the greatest difficulty in supporting themselves while continuing their studies there? Would he not take steps to ensure that this money is used for the purpose for which it is intended?
I have explained that applicants of the required merit are not forthcoming.
What is the required merit?
This is something to be decided by the professorial staff.
By the Department of Education.
Not by the Department of Education.
Yes, by the Department of Education.
25.
asked the Minister for Education how many part-time members of the staff of the National College of Art are teaching a number of hours which would qualify them in a vocational school and in a secondary school for whole-time posts; and how many of these are in charge of areas of study.
Nine of the part-time teachers are engaged in teaching for a number of hours per week equivalent to those normally worked by teachers in secondary and vocational schools. One of these is in charge of an area of study.
26.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of each year since 1964-65 in relation to the National College of Art (a) how much has been spent on books and (b) the number of books purchased.
The receipts which would enable me to answer this question were unfortunately destroyed or removed from the college premises during the student disturbances.
That was lucky, was it not?
It was not, in fact, lucky.
When were these student disturbances to which the Minister referred?
Quite recently.
How long ago? Was it this year or last year?
This year.
And nobody could tell the Minister anything about it.
27.
asked the Minister for Education what library facilities exist in the National College of Art; and what access students have to books.
There is a supply of books in the college which is being added to each year. As most of the books are relevant to particular schools —painting, sculpture, design—they are kept in the various sections of the college and are available to the students on request. If a student wants a book all he is required to do is sign a docket and he is given the book by the teacher.
Any student requiring a book not available in the college has the resources of the National Library next door at his disposal.
Is the Minister aware that the books are locked up and are not available to students on request, and that when students request books they are frequently refused?
I am not so aware, but I will inquire about it. My information is that if a student wants a book he is simply required to sign a docket and he is given the book.
In view of the statements and counter-statements made here today and on several occasions, would the Minister inform the taxpayers of the country what benefits, in his opinion, accrue to the nation from this college and from the money expended on it? If the Minister's statements are correct certainly I feel no justification for spending public money on this kind of outfit.
The benefits are ones the Deputy might not appreciate.
(Interruptions.)
I think Deputy Murphy would appreciate the benefits. I did not before I became Minister for Education, but I admit they are considerable and potentionally well worth while.
Our lack of artistic appreciation does not mean there should be no art education in Ireland.
Could I ask the Minister what books are available in the College of Art?
Damn few.
It is obvious.
Surely the Deputy does not want me to list them. There are a considerable number of books available in the college.
How many post-1900?
If a student requires a book and it is not available there, the resources of the National Library are at his disposal.