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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 1972

Vol. 258 No. 9

Private Members' Business: Air and Water Pollution: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That, in view of the deteriorating situation with regard to air and water pollution and the lack of up-to-date legislation to deal with the position, Dáil Éireann calls on the Minister for Local Government to introduce legislation forthwith to rectify this state of affairs.
—(Deputy L. Belton.)

In this country we have only a very small minority of conservationists, preservationists and amenity bodies who play an invaluable role in keeping the pollution issue alive. Social consciousness has been awakened to a degree by a vociferous few, who vehemently objected to the proposed siting of the smelter plant at Little Island, County Cork, by the few who deplored the neglect that led to the breach of the industrial effluent tank in Tuam and by the angling groups who are dismayed and frustrated by the everincreasing pollution of our rivers with subsequent loss of all fish life. Some of these have been dismissed as cranks and fusspots, others as academics who show no regard or consideration for industrial progress and the desperate need to create more employment.

I suggest that those people are genuinely concerned and fully realise the urgent need to strike a harmonious balance between industrial progress and control of the environment. I am convinced that men like Professor Scott of University College, Cork, who has been a very outspoken critic, would only be too willing to work with industry and local authorities to develop pragmatic solutions to their environmental problems. The issue of pollution, because we are not yet in a huge environment crisis, has not entered the political arena but this is already happening in the US, Britain, Sweden, Germany and in many other countries. Now is the time to act before it is too late. It behoves the Government to initiate a comprehensive scheme for the control and protection of the environment. A start can be made by passing legislation and ensuring its strict enforcement.

In this regard we should carefully examine how other countries have tackled the problem of pollution and we might well benefit from their experiences. Sweden has been exemplary in its approach. Its 1969 environmental protection law is generally recognised as a masterpiece in legislation and its declared aim is that all industry should do everything technically possible and economically feasible to keep production processes from deleteriously affecting the environment.

Sweden has made some impressive, technical achievements in the pollution control field. These range from air bubbling processes with applications in revitalising polluted lakes and protecting harbours from oil leakage and sulphur dioxide to scrubbers and advanced techniques for the treatment of sewage and industrial waste. The Royal Swedish Environmental Protection Board have very considerable powers and it is generally recognised that they are doing a tremendous job. They have powers to grant subsidies to industries and communities constructing pollution control apparatus. They have powers in determining areas to be set aside for nature reserves. They also act as an environmental watchdog and they advise on industrial applications for licences.

Britain, too, from its legislation, namely the Clean Air Act and the Alkali Act, has benefited considerably. If we have a look at the main pollutants we find that these consist of industrial effluent, raw sewage, pesticide residues, intensive farm excreta and fertiliser run-off, diesel fumes and, indeed, noise. We must examine each separately to see how best we can control them without inhibiting progress. We must strike a balance between economic quantity and the quality of our life.

We find, if we consider industrial effluent, that some of the worst offenders are creameries and food processing plants. What must we do? We must ensure that all new plants being constructed are fitted with the most modern pollution control devices and planning permission must be refused by the local authorities unless this is complied with. Secondly, we must devise a scheme of subsidies for existing industries to install the necessary apparatus.

Some of the very common industrial pollutants are carbon monoxide, lead, the hydrocarbons and the oxides of nitrogen. We do not know what their precise effect is or the full potential of their dangers but we must be fully aware that they are dangers. We must be careful about the dumping of toxic materials inland because of possible water contamination. We must realise, too, that the sea's capacity to absorb and dilute waste is enormous but not infinite. We must remember, too, that a substantial proportion of productive fisheries are located in shallow waters. Unless we now exercise the greatest caution we will do enormous damage that may take decades to rectify.

I feel I should mention here the proposed smelter plant at Little Island. If one is to take an objective, impartial view one will realise that with a very high concentration of industry around the harbour and the pumping of industrial effluent in huge quantities together with massive quantities of raw sewage into it, we run the risk of converting our beautiful harbour into a stinking cess-pool. Against that we must weigh our critical unemployment situation in Cork and the urgent need to create thousands of jobs. Therefore, if all pollution control devices are fitted, which should include sulphur dioxide scrubbers and filters, and if a monitoring station is constructed to keep a 24-hour watch on the possible emission of harmful toxic materials, then economic necessity may weigh in favour of its approval. I also say that this approval should be dependent on a written assurance of the creation of at least 400 permanent jobs and adequate insurance for the farmers of east Cork against possible damage to their lands and loss of profits from their agricultural industry. If these guarantees are not forthcoming then we should think again about granting approval. We must have a guarantee of a satisfactory level of employment for a stipulated number of years and in default the payment of massive compensation. We cannot be too careful. There is far too much at stake for us in Cork to view matters lightly.

I should like to say a few words about the unloading of untreated sewage into rivers by local authorities, probably our major source of pollution. The cost of correcting this immediately would be prohibitive. We must ensure, however, that all new systems conform to a planned pattern. At present, towns surrounded by a network of rivers and streams simply discharge into the closest stream to the site. If at some future date a plant is needed, the cost will be very high because the outlets will be scattered over a wide area.

If, on the other hand, all the outlets ran into a single outfall, a single pipe would suffice to discharge the sewage to the treatment plant, and it should be made compulsory for local authorities to designate one or two major outlets into which all new outlets will be run. If this is not practicable it should be stipulated that all new outlets must run into existing outlets.

Unless we begin to make provision for the future here we cannot possibly hope to contain or to rectify our serious pollution problem and at this stage I must ask the Minister immediately to make available money for the construction of a sewage disposal unit in Midleton. The whole backwash of the inner harbour between Ballinacurra and Midleton is stinking. One has to see it at first hand to realise how bad it is. Its condition has been brought about by the pumping of huge quantities of untreated sewage into it and it has been worsened of late by industrial effluent. It has silted up in recent years and now its stench is nauseating. It certainly constitutes a serious health hazard to the people of Midleton and Ballinacurra. This work must be given priority and must be completed before next summer. Otherwise there could be an epidemic in Midleton.

I have mentioned pollutants from industry and the pollution caused by raw sewage. I should like to say now that the agricultural sector provides its pollutants mainly in the form of pesticide residues, fertiliser run off and drainage from silage pits. All these make a very high demand on oxygen in the water, thus killing fish and other life. Fishing is a very important part of our tourist attraction as well as being the main source of livelihood of many of our people. We must exercise strict control over proper drainage pits for silage effluent.

With regard to pesticides, there is striking evidence that we should endeavour to end all use of organochlorine pesticides. Not enough is known of their harmful effects but what is known leaves serious doubts about the advisability of their use. The permissible residue level for food in the United States is extremely low and these levels are being fixed in Great Britain in the near future. We must keep a very close eye on this to ensure that our exports of beef, lamb and processed foods will continue to remain acceptable on those markets. The indestructibility of the organo-chlorines is extremely worrying. So is their huge concentration in the biosphere, assessed at several million tons. Organochlorine and organo-mercury fungicides have become global contaminants. We have evidence of the damage caused by the spillage of quantities of the organochlorine insecticide endosulean into the river Rhine in 1969 which caused the deaths of millions of fish. Usages of these insecticides and fungicides should be controlled by the Government.

Farmers, too, should be warned of the danger of washing out spraying machines and dumping used containers in water courses. I suggest widespread adoption of the criteria proposed in the document prepared by the Council of Europe Working Party on Poisonous Substances in Agriculture would go far to standarise procedure in Western Europe. We have a duty to ourselves and to all nations to ensure that we conform to the standards laid down.

One of the causes of pollution that is very often overlooked is detergent. Our people should be made aware of the dangers of indiscriminate use of detergents, particularly those containing enzymes. It has been proved in England that the most up to date sewage plants are only 90 per cent efficient in dealing with synthetic detergents. Normal bacterial action is only 65 per cent efficient. Enzymes also cause respiratory disorders such as asthma and bronchitis, and exposure to them can result in allergies. I suggest that the Government, and the Minister for Local Government in particular, should warn the general public on the possible dangers from the misuse of enzyme detergents.

Two other pollutants are diesel fumes and noise. As we know, some lorry owners are particularly bad offenders where diesel fumes are concerned. The law should be strictly enforced in this matter and heavy penalties imposed on those who disregard it. Where noise is concerned, we must carefully set down standards of permissible noise levels. In England, 45 per cent of the population are estimated to live on roads with an undesirable level of noise. We should not be lax in this country particularly with young offenders who remove silencers from motorcycles and cars and who thus cause particular hardship to the aged.

The cost benefit analysis of pollutant control is the necessary starting point for a decision and I would propose a central government economics unit for this purpose. Regular monitoring of existing levels is required if the dangers of pollution are to be assessed intelligently. Regular monitoring may be more effective than routine analysis of the environment. We could beneficially use our existing university resources and, indeed, the goodwill and the concern shown by university people to combat the pollution problems which are now besetting us.

I would propose that a special section, under the Minister for Local Government, with complete responsibility for environmental protection, should be formed and a staff member should be attached to each county council. By introducing effective, comprehensive legislation and by doing so now we can make considerable advances within our existing resources. I would, therefore, call on the Minister for Local Government to introduce this legislation without delay and ensure that our atmosphere will be pure and our rivers and lakes free from pollution in the very near future.

I speak on behalf of the Minister who is unavoidably absent. In view of the fact that the debate on this motion at our next sitting has just 25 minutes to go it would be impossible for the Minister to get in because the mover of the motion has the right to reply.

Since the adjournment last April of the debate on this motion the Minister has had the opportunity, in the course of the debate on the Department's estimate, to inform the House in some detail of the various steps he was taking to deal with the air and water pollution problems. While I do not wish to repeat these now, I should, perhaps, refer again to some of the more important ones.

The Inter-departmental Working Group on Air and Water Pollution which the Minister set up to inquire into the nature and extent of the air and water pollution problems, the remedial strategies that might be adopted, the cost of these strategies, how the cost might be divided between the State, local authorities and the private sector, the adequacy of existing legislation and the need for fresh legislation have not yet completed their examination of these matters. They are, however, aware of the Minister's anxiety to have their report as soon as possible. Pending submission of the working group's report various steps have been taken to ensure that the situation with regard to air and water pollution is not allowed to deteriorate.

In order to establish the facts concerning the extent of the water pollution problem An Foras Forbartha has undertaken at the Minister's request a continuing survey of the condition of all our major rivers. The first series of investigations is already completed and a report of these is expected from An Foras shortly. Information obtained from the survey has, however, already been sent to local authorities and they have been asked, where pollution is shown to be occurring to a significant degree, to take immediate steps to establish the source of the pollution and to initiate remedial action. The Minister has also requested them to take the results of the survey into account when dealing with applications for planning permission for development which might give rise to effluent problems and to use their powers to the full to prevent any new sources of pollution being created. In order to ensure that as far as practicable a consistent approach is adopted by all planning authorities when they are considering planning applications for new industries or extensions to existing industries liable to give rise to effluent problems guidelines have been issued to them on the subject. The Minister also made arrangements to achieve co-ordination in this particular matter between planning authorities, the Industrial Development Authority and the Fisheries Branch of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.

A number of Deputies referred to the water pollution position in the Dublin area and I would like to refer to the measures which are being and have been taken to improve the position. Substantial improvement has been achieved in the condition of the Dodder as a result of the interception by the Dodder Valley sewerage scheme of certain discharges which previously contributed to pollution in the river. Some improvement has also been achieved in the case of the Tolka where the corporation carried out certain works including a rising main and pump house at Finglas Bridge. Work in progress and planned by the local authorities in the Dublin area in relation to provision of drainage schemes and new treatment works will help to achieve further improvements. Pollution of the Liffey is caused mainly by the Camac river, which is highly polluted by industrial effluent. The Camac flows directly into the Liffey near Islandbridge. The sewers in the centre city area have storm overflows which discharge into the Liffey when the capacity of the sewer is exceeded. This is another source of pollution of the Liffey. The Greater Dublin drainage scheme, which will cost an estimated £6,500,000, will cater for these discharges and thus eliminate the main causes of pollution of the Camac and Liffey. As announced recently, the Minister has approved the contract documents submitted by Dublin Corporation for the construction of the first major stage of a scheme which is designed to provide a modern sewage treatment works for Dublin. The estimated cost is in the region of £2.2 million. This section will deal in the first instance with flows coming through the new Dodder Valley sewer which is scheduled for completion in 1974 and which will, in addition to opening up some 6,300 acres of new land for development in the Tallaght area, ensure that the Dodder river will be free from pollution.

The planning of the remaining sections of the overall treatment works scheme, of which the present project is the first major stage, is proceeding. When the total scheme has been constructed it is expected that there will be a significant and rapid improvement in the condition of the Liffey and Dublin Bay. As regards pollution of rivers from agricultural sources arrangements are being considered jointly by my Department and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in order to minimise pollution from such sources.

Turning to air pollution, section 10 of the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1962 contains wide powers to control air pollution. The first regulations made under this section are the Control of Atmospheric Pollution Regulations, 1970, which came into force on 1st January, 1971. These regulations control the heavier smoke emissions and make it an offence to cause a nuisance by emission of smoke, dust, grit, gas or fumes from premises other than private houses. The administration of the regulations rests with sanitary authorities and reasonable progress has been achieved in their first year of operation.

The emission of noxious gases and acids from certain chemical and other processes is controlled by the Alkali etc. Works Regulations Act, 1906. Most of the works which are registered under this Act were inspected last year by a firm of chemical consultants with a view to ensuring that they are operating within the limits set by the Act.

Air pollution measurements are taken at recording stations in six of the larger urban areas. It is the intention to increase substantially the number and coverage of monitoring stations and sanitary authorities have been asked to arrange, in consultation with the Department, for the setting up of more adequate monitoring arrangements in towns with populations over 15,000.

Finally, I should say that while the Minister is fully in favour of introducing such legislation as may be necessary in relation to air and water pollution, it is important to ensure that it is the right legislation. It is essential, therefore, that the report of the Inter-departmental Working Group, to which I have already referred, should be awaited and the Minister hopes to receive it in the near future.

Deputy Cott referred to planning permission. Local authorities, who are charged with carrying out the provisions of the various Planning Acts, take every precaution to ensure that, before planning permission is given for industrial and other undertakings, provision is made to minimise-indeed, in some cases, to avoid altogether—pollution of either air or water. The same applies to planning permissions which come by way of appeal to the Department. While it may be necessary to introduce legislation as a result of the study of the problem by the working group, that does not mean that a good deal cannot be done under existing legislation. Indeed, a great deal is being done to prevent pollution or to alleviate its effects. For that reason, I would ask now that this motion be withdrawn.

I support the call made to the Minister in this motion to introduce forthwith legislation which will deal effectively with both air and water pollution. While pollution control is management's responsibility, the only real solution to it is the introduction of legislation to control it. At the moment—the Parliamentary Secretary must agree with me in this— there is no really effective legislation to enforce anti-pollution measures.

Safeguarding our environment is vital and people must be made to realise that such safeguarding will cost money. Money can be found only by increased taxation but, if the seriousness of the situation is brought home to the people, I am convinced that they will gladly pay whatever is required to conserve our environment. Such conservation is urgent. As a country, we are starved of industry. We have high unemployment and a high level of emigration and one of our problems is to provide industry in order to create jobs and at the same time preserve our environment.

Control of pollution should be our priority. I do not advocate, and neither do the movers of the motion, that people should become hysterical about control. What we suggest is that the Minister should introduce legislation of a kind designed to help in the conservation of our environment and, at the same time, help in creating new jobs and avoiding any hardship on any section of our community.

Recently, in Fermoy, I saw two films. They were American films and they were shown by the local anti-pollution committee in the town. This committee are doing great work in bringing to the notice of the public generally the dangers of pollution and showing how easy it is, if we all take a hand, to help in its control. Anyone looking at these films could not but be alarmed at the magnitude of the problem in the USA. Neither our industrial arm nor our population has grown in the same way as theirs but we can learn from what has happened in other countries and benefit from the experience of other countries.

As my colleague, Deputy Cott, said, detergents, washing powders, insecticides, pesticides and new forms of fertiliser all contribute to aggravating the problem. I read somewhere recently that of the 3,000 food additives in use only 30 have been fully tested for safety. That will give some idea of the magnitude of the problem. The biggest problem is the pollution of our waters. There are four main sources—untreated sewage, silage, the run-off from fertilisers and from piggeries and the effluent from factories. The Parliamentary Secretary says he hopes to have the report on pollution from An Foras Forbartha shortly but the problem is one of such magnitude that it is vital that we should tackle this immediately. I appeal to him to introduce the necessary legislation. Existing legislation is ineffective. Only yesterday I read in the Cork Examiner of people being brought before the court charged with polluting certain rivers and they got off; they were not fined. It may be that the court acted correctly. On the other hand, the unfortunate poor devil who takes a salmon is fined anything up to £50. In my opinion, local authorities are the biggest polluters of our rivers. But they get away with it.

Legislation will have to be introduced to solve this problem. I read recently that more than one-quarter of the 20,000 miles of rivers in England and half of Britain's 1,500 miles of canals are officially recognised as being polluted. That is a startling fact and that is just another reason why we should now take time by the forelock and tackle the problem. The river Tyne in England is now described as an open sewer flowing through such places as the heart of Newcastle. I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that there is a good improvement now as regards the Dublin rivers, Dodder and Tolka. I do not know if he mentioned the Liffey but in any case this is a step in the right direction.

But it is unfortunate that when you consider the river Lee and the Munster Blackwater the problem still remains. I have read in regard to the Lee that millions of gallons of untreated sewage are emptied into it at Passage West. Ships' captains are fined for polluting water with oil while we ourselves are big offenders. Indeed, in regard to the Munster Blackwater, I live in Fermoy and as a member of the urban council perhaps, like others, I am to some extent responsible. It is true that sewage there is also going untreated into the River Blackwater. That is the river we are proud to call the Irish Rhine.

For all those reasons the Parliamentary Secretary should have a serious look at these problems and take cognisance of the wording of the motion. Apart from the danger to health of discharging untreated sewage into these rivers, as Deputy Cott has said, thousands of fish are being killed. The extent of the pollution and damage to fish life has shocked officials of the Inland Fisheries Trust. I am sure they have been in touch with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and Local Government. I am informed that the stumbling block is that no prosecutions can be brought in many cases. If that is so, I think the House will agree that amending legislation is urgently required.

I read recently a criticism of the Irish Government for not being represented at the international conference in Oslo last October concerning marine pollution. The reason given was that it was not thought necessary to send anybody there. We have been sending public representatives to far corners of the world for less important reasons. We should have sent representatives there to learn about the problem instead of sitting at home talking about it. As regards having no legislation to enforce against those who offend in regard to pollution it is only right to mention that Britain has a law which allows them to destroy a ship if it is likely to pollute the British coast with oil. That shows how seriously the British Government view the whole problem. In West Germany there is a law to protect people from noise and air pollution covering all sources from industry to lawn mowers. It is designed to prevent environmental damage and it carries penalties of jail sentences up to ten years or fines of up to £12,500.

I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that very strict measures were being taken to ensure that industry would do as little damage as possible by way of effluent from factories. Up to recently little notice was taken of this problem but if it is being tackled now it is a step in the right direction. We should realise and recognise that conservation is a problem for all of us and we should try to create greater awareness among those employed in factories that this is a major threat to civilisation. We, as legislators, have a responsibility to ensure that we shall pass on to posterity a world in which they can live and that we do not impose any hardship or cruelty on them by our negligence in this very important field. Like Deputy Cott I believe a department of environment should be set up now with representatives from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Department of Lands.

It is rather a pity that Conservation Year passed over with so many people showing so little interest in it. I believe people are now much more conscious of their task of ensuring that air and water will be kept as clean as possible. It is all right to send circulars to local authorities from the Department of Local Government asking them to do this, that and the other but, as a member of a local authority I appreciate that they have so many other problems with which to grapple now that unless there is some financial aid involved for them in tackling this problem, I fear the circular will get no results.

I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department of Local Government to take a very serious view of this matter and to try to get across to people that it is their business and a serious matter for them and that all we are trying to do here and as members of local authorities is ensure that Ireland in the future will be as good and as clean as it is now as regards air, water and noise. We hope the country will remain as it has been, and should be in this respect, an attraction for tourists who will be able to recognise it because we kept it so clean.

This Bill brings up an interesting subject, interesting because of its importance but interesting also because of the possibility of our passing yet more legislation and then doing nothing effective to put it into force.

Hear, hear.

As I will indicate in a moment, I am wholeheartedly in favour of dealing with the problem of pollution and of dealing with it as quickly as possible but after years of seeing Bills of this nature going through the House, for instance, Bills dealing with traffic regulations, and then seeing the legislation ignored in practice, I would suggest at the outset that we should be serious about legislation and ensure that it is enforced. On another occasion I mentioned the fact that we have a whole code of traffic regulations and laws which nobody bothers about. Only this morning in this city I saw a main thoroughfare blocked by a lorry that was manoeuvring. All traffic was held up for a quarter of an hour but nobody seemed to care. Notices of speed limits can be seen all over the country but only too often one finds people driving at a speed much greater than that specified for a particular area. However, that is not the matter before the House but I mention it to illustrate the futility of bringing in legislation while not having the means to enforce it. It is a fault of all administrations, of all bureaucracies, to think that once a law is passed that is the end of the matter but the experience of the modern world should indicate that what is important is enforcement of laws and that laws mean nothing unless they can be enforced. In fact, laws are bad if they cannot be enforced.

It is with that very depressing thought in mind that I approach this very admirable initiative on the part of the people who have thought well to bring the matter before the House. I cast no reflection whatsoever on them but it is important to remember that, although civil servants do their work on the preparation of Bills, judging from the actions of the Department of Local Government and, in particular, the actions of the Department of Justice, insufficient thought is given to the question of realistic enforcement of legislation.

In a matter of this nature it is obvious that there will be great problems in respect of enforcement. Serious attention will have to be given to the methods of enforcing whatever are the regulations and it is my belief that it would be better to have a small amount of legislation that could be enforced effectively rather than having a lot of window-dressing legislation which, in the last analysis, will leave matters worse than they were before.

If my memory serves me correctly, there are provisions in the road traffic regulations for dealing with pollution caused by vehicle exhausts and there are regulations also dealing with noise and with litter but I will leave it to Deputies to judge for themselves how much enforcement there is in respect of these types of pollution. The problem of pollution is one not only for us but for the whole world. Mankind is destroying the planet on which we live. I am afraid that this planet can be compared with a hill into which rabbits have burrowed reducing it to sand. Humanity, having acquired such a degree of control over the environment, is destroying it. This encroachment is not peculiar to us because it is happening all over the world. It is noticeable in the destruction of certain species of animals and in the destruction of vegetation. There was the famous dustbowl experience of the United States. The process is accelerating. There are pessimistic forecasts about the future of the oceans. There has been mention of four-fifths of the earth being water. In any case, if certain authorities are to be believed. there is proximate danger of significant disastrous pollution of the oceans. That is a frightening thought. Therefore, when we approach this problem of pollution, we must take into account the problem in the world generally and also how people are reacting to it.

Motor-car exhaust fumes, particularly in built-up areas, constitute a from of pollution that is rising above a level that is tolerable. It might be desirable but certainly not feasible to ban the motor-car from the entire area of this city. The point I am making is that we must have regard to the facts and to what people will tolerate in regard to any action taken on this problem. In other words, we must have regard to what is feasible and I fear that feasibility will be conditioned largely by what is acceptable universally and what is acceptable will be dictated by the acuteness of the problem generally.

No doubt Deputy Barry and others who have supported this motion will be under the impression that I am making a case against it. I am not doing so. What I am trying to do is to raise some points which must necessarily be considered so as to give effect to any measures that may be passed. There is the question of enforcement and ancillary to that and, perhaps, part of it, the question of the feasibility of provisions proposed having regard to the level of acceptability of such provisions by the population.

Having said that, let us look so far as we can to what is our local problem in regard to pollution. Ours is a growing problem and I should like to join with Deputy Barry and with any other Deputy who may be pressing for the early consideration of this problem in saying that we could start in Dublin city. Those here who approach the city daily from the south or south-west, in particular from high ground, will have seen that there is a blanket of smog, a layer of concentrated and potentially dangerous pollution, over this city. It may also be noticed from the north. It has grown in recent years. Possibly it is associated with expansion at the perimeter of the city. This in itself should be the danger signal. It may ultimately lead to smokeless fuel and other measures of that nature which had to be taken in other countries.

I do not intend to go into arguments here as to precise levels of pollution, but a few facts will do. We built one huge chimney at Ringsend, which is a useful indicator as to how the wind is blowing. Yesterday there was smoke from it blowing east; today it was blowing west. There are two ESB chimneys alongside it. I have often been tempted to take a camera out and photograph the volumes of black smoke belching out at certain times. There are other orifices around throwing smoke into the atmosphere. However, I mention the other two because they are public undertakings and we can blame nobody else but ourselves for those. I do not want to blame either, because the other side of the coin is, supposing you close them down, what would Dublin do for power? There is no use just shouting about pollution. There is no use going after the poacher for one salmon and letting the local authorities destroy the river with sewage. Therefore, there is no use in getting after one small factory while allowing the ESB to throw out, and apparently necessarily throw out, this big volume of black smoke. Sometimes pollution is inseperable from industrial activity, and while I am advocating minimising pollution, we should be realistic in facing up to where the pollution is coming from.

The air in certain parts of the city is quite polluted. I was amazed to find recently that the pH of the rain water in a certain area not far from the docks in this city was four. What that means is that the acidity of that rain water was one thousand times more than the acidity of pure water. That acidity was sufficient to corrode heating installations and things like that. Remember that the pollution is not just the smoke dust or coal dust or whatever it is that is coming out from factories; there are more subtle and more dangerous effluents in invisible gas. Trace these to their sources, which will be just as I say, and you will have the problem of compromise. The community want certain things; they want certain employment, but the cost of all that is the production of these noxious substances, and you have to consider the feasibility and the cost of controlling that.

The only effective way to deal with his problem is not to deal with it globally but to find out the important cause of pollution and try to control it, as well as minimising other causes if possible. Another example is the chemical factory at Avoca. Although I was not near enough to smell them as I passed along there, I should be very much surprised if the yellow gases which I saw coming out from one particular point were not nitrogen oxide lumes. What struck me was how little was coming out, but that quantity was significant from a pollution point of view. It is very easy to say that we do not have a factory like that, but it is not as simple as kiss hands to say you will have no pollution.

Deputy Barry put his finger on the nub of the water supply problem. We have an expanding population and consequently an expansion of housing. That means water supplies and the removal of sewage. The two are interlinked. Heretofore we have been very well off in regard to water, so well off that we are prone to forget that the supply of water is a major problem in other parts of the world and that, as a whole, the world may be short of fresh water. We in this country have had it so plentiful that we are very prodigal in its use. However, sewage is a problem in Dublin city and I do not know what the answers are. There is a great deal of untreated sewage going into the Liffey. You only have to go out in a boat in Dublin Bay to discover that it is completely polluted with sewage.

The bay between Bray Head and Killiney Head has now become a very polluted area. I mentioned that area because it is what I might call very proper to us. We cannot blame anyone else for that form of pollution. Of course the Irish Sea is getting its share of pollution from the other side and from other sources. We definitely have a big problem where water is concerned. I mentioned air pollution first.

The problem of water pollution may also be a problem of water conservation. It would be in other countries. I do not think it would help to go into the mucky details of that because the details are mucky. If we are starting anywhere it might be a salutary thought to start there. If we do we must be prepared to find the very considerable sums of money that are entailed in that operation. I for one would be prepared to subscribe to finding that money but we have to educate other people into the importance of this. It is like the way we saved on the police and skimped on the Army. In concentrating on essentials we seem to have been a little tight in this area also.

The problem of sea pollution may be beyond us. In the near future there must be moves by a number of people on this matter and we may be involved in this when we enter the EEC. They are concerned about conservation of stock in the seas and pollution of the seas in the vicinity of Europe. We will probably have to play our part in that. It will be very much in our interests to do so.

I suppose that when people talk about pollution they are thinking particularly of the type of pollution Deputy Barry and I talked about but there are other insidious pollutions that are so tied up with conservation that it is difficult to know which word to use. Mankind is discovering—and it is to be hoped that it acts on it before it is too late—that you must keep areas of nature intact, that you must keep green areas, areas of trees and vegetation, that there is a limit to the way you can distort nature and get away with it.

The oxygen supply of the world is greatly dependent on the vegetation of the world. We are beginning to understand now that it is a very good thing for the health of a community to have interspaced green areas. It may be said that this is no problem for us, that we are an agricultural country and we have plenty of greenery, plenty of green plants, and so on, but if cities like Dublin grow it is rather important to keep some greenery in them. Pollution and conservation become very closely linked at this point.

There is another thing—would you call it a pollution? I would—that is, the way the modern treatment of seeds and certain agricultural and horticultural practices are affecting forms of animal life. I am not competent to judge this because I have not made any particular inquiries, but I am told that there are areas in the country in which the bird population has gone down because of the treatment of seeds. Certainly the indiscriminate use of insecticides has influenced the balance in some ways. One cannot always foresee where this kind of thing is leading to. For us as an agricultural country, as a country that depends on nature and on the land, there is a need to be very alert to the side reactions and uncalculated long-term consequences of using chemicals to disturb the normality of nature.

I know that argument could be pressed too far. That argument could be shoved back to the stage where you would not use artificial manure or where you would never improve your farming. I hope it will not be taken in that sense. What I am saying is that the indiscriminate use of chemicals for such purposes has its dangers and can be a pollution. A survey of that whole area is highly desirable when approaching a problem of this nature. I suppose I could go on and cover a lot of the ground that has been covered already but other people want to take part in this debate as well.

Therefore I should like to summarise briefly the points I made. If we are to legislate let us make adequate provision for enforcement. Let us be realistic about it and not have window-dressing legislation. If we are to tackle air pollution let us have regard to the realities. Let us not pass an Act that will catch, to take Deputy Barry's analogy, the poacher who takes one salmon and will let the person who is polluting the whole river and killing hundreds of salmon get away with it, no matter what excuse, whether it is essential or otherwise. Not only is that an unfair way but it is a dangerous way to approach a problem like this because it enables the main pollution to be bigger and worse than ever.

Then there is the question of water pollution, the question of the sea, the question of the birds, and lastly what I would call the chemical pollution of the environment through the use of chemicals for any purpose, particularly agricultural purposes. All these things have to be considered. If any measure is brought into this House in support of conservation or the minimising of pollution. I will give it my wholehearted support because this is a vital problem at this time. It affects our life in the long term.

In many ways it is the greatest menance to our lives and wellbeing in our own country and to our being able to develop our country. All these threats can be summed up in the word "pollution". I want to stress that, lest my attempt to come to grips with the snags and the realities might be interpreted as putting obstacles in the way of coping with the problem. I should like to see the obstacles overcome. It is a very good thing that we should consider this whole matter in the House and I hope we will heat more about it in the future.

I rise to support the motion in the names of Deputy Belton. Deputy Esmonde and Deputy Cott. My only regret is that the motion does not go far enough. Matters appertaining to our environment are of such urgency and importance that a special department should deal with them. Although our country is as yet very largely unspoilt there is growing evidence all around us that our scenic beauty, our natural heritage and our natural amenities are very obviously under constant attack from scientific, industrial and technological forces. Already many of our rivers are severely polluted. Large sections of our coastline are polluted, some to a shocking extent. Certain of our rivers and portion of our coastline at present are like stagnant cess-pools of filth and stench. Fish life in our rivers has been seriously threatened and in many instances in small rivers and portions of large rivers it has been wiped out time and time again.

The very air we breathe is contaminated. The air we breathe in the city of Dublin is regarded as being twice as dirty as was that of London before the introduction of the smokeless zones there, even though this country escaped the industrial revolution. There is evidence that our food is being contaminated more and more by the growing use of pesticides and insecticides, some of which are known to result in dangerous residues in the food we use.

Many of our buildings of historical interest and architectural importance and also many beautiful landscapes have been destroyed. Serious threat to our fish life has come about by the discharge of industrial and agricultural effluent of a deadly and noxious kind as well as the discharge of untreated sewage and, indeed, rubbish of all kinds. Wild life, especially in the native habitat, is threatened. Wild fowl and bird life is being exterminated by the growing interference with their natural habitat. Some of our State bodies are responsible to a marked degree in this regard.

Our environment is regretfully changing for the worse and nothing effective is being done by our Government to arrest this trend. The Government have not been facing up to their responsibilities in this important matter. Despite what may be said from the Government benches and by Ministers from time to time there is no positive policy for dealing with the vitally important matter of our environment. There are no adequate funds and there is no effective legislation to deal with the problem; on the contrary responsibility for our environment is scattered over a range of State Departments such as the Department of Local Government, which one would imagine would be primarily responsible, the Department of Lands, the Department of Health, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the Department of Transport and Power. What is everybody's business in this crucial matter is clearly nobody's business.

We should have one ministry and one effective piece of legislation to deal with all aspects of environmental pollution. There are at least seven Acts of Parliament which refer to the environment and surely this is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. We require one Act and one ministry and sufficient funds for research and assistance to all concerned to grapple with this great task. There is as yet no legislation to prevent air and water pollution by industries set up prior to 1963. Local authorities, it must be admitted, do not make sufficiently strong conditions on industry in respect of matters of pollution. The local authorities are unable, through lack of funds, to deal with the awful problem of raw sewage which constantly pours into our rivers and streams throughout the country.

Debate adjourned.
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