asked the Minister for Education if he will state in relation to St. Mary's Dominican Convent School, Dún Laoghaire the number of teachers he intends to allow for incremental salaries in the year 1972-73; the pupil-teacher ratio on which the number of teachers is based; and if he will make a statement on the matter
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dún Laoghaire School.
28.
I do not feel that it would be appropriate for me to give details in this House as to the staffing of individual schools. I can tell the Deputy, however, that the staffing which my Department would be prepared to sanction in the case of the school in question for the school year 1972-73 would give a pupil/ teacher ratio of 17 to 1.
Can the Minister say if the pupil/teacher ratio and the staffing decided by his Department for the coming year means a reduction of five teachers in the school compared with the number which was sanctioned for the current year and, if so, surely this is contrary to the expressed policy of the Department that the curriculum is not wide enough?
No, that is not so. In fact, the number I am proposing for this year is two over the proposed quota.
Is the Minister aware that last year the number was 32 and this year it is proposed to sanction 27?
No, that is incorrect.
What are the figures, then?
For 1972-73—30.
That is two less than last year?
Yes.
Then it is a reduction.
I did not suggest that it was not a reduction but it is very different from what the Deputy suggested a moment ago, that there were five less.
This is juggling with figures. Is the Minister not aware that, in fact, the Department said on the phone to the school that the curriculum was too wide? This is in conflict with what the Minister has publicly stated no later than last night, that the curriculum was not wide enough. In fact, this is a proposal to reduce the number of teachers.
The Deputy is aware that I am endeavouring in a variety of ways to make a broader curriculum available in all schools but in so far as pupil/teacher ratio is concerned, quite obviously, as I pointed out in the statement I made, the suggestion that it should be 15/1 is something which is not within the capacity of this country.
Financially?
As I pointed out last night, it is not regarded anywhere as being educationally unsound not to adopt that particular ratio.
Surely, if the Minister says that the curriculum is not wide enough, it is limiting it still further to reduce the number of teachers. In fact, this school had 32 teachers and now, according to the Minister's figure, they will be reduced to 30.
What I said is that in very many schools the curriculum is not wide enough and the pupil/ teacher ratio is not low enough. I am endeavouring to have the pupil/teacher ratio such that in all of our schools we will be able to provide a curriculum which is broad enough to cater for the abilities and aptitudes of all pupils.
Surely that can be achieved without reducing the number of teachers in a school which has endeavoured to provide a wide curriculum and which is now faced with the problem of a reduction in the number of teachers?
Not necessarily.
May I ask the Minister what the pupil/teacher ratio in St. Mary's will be with 30 teachers?
I have pointed out in my reply that it is 17/1.
Does the Minister consider the curriculum broad enough in St. Mary's Dominican Convent, Dún Laoghaire, and is he refusing to sanction a figure of 32 teachers?
Too broad, apparently.
Do I take it from the Minister's reply that he considers the curriculum to be too broad, in view of what he has just said in relation to the pupil/teacher ratio and in relation to a broad curriculum?
What I would say in reply to that is that in my view it is essentially a question of time-tabling.
Does the Minister not agree that it is obvious from discussions with the school in question that the Department are not clear where they are going in this matter?
The Deputy can be assured that the Department are very clear——
They are not clear.
——and the Minister is very clear as to where he is going.
The pupils and teachers and the school authorities do not know where you are going.
I would dispute that with the Deputy.