Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 Apr 1974

Vol. 272 No. 3

Adjournment Debate: Pig Subsidy Scheme.

Mr. Callanan

Had time not run out on us today I should not be raising this question on the adjournment. The subsidy for pigs is totally inadequate, it will be available only for a period of six months and will be phased out. The situation is so serious that a statement from the Department is needed.

Today I wanted to ask a supplementary question whether the Minister would get permission from the EEC, if they do not continue to do so, to subsidise the pig industry from our national resources. The worst thing that could happen to the industry is a statement from the Minister that people should get out of pig production. That would be disastrous so far as the small farmers are concerned because this is one line of production in which they can engage. If farmers are to stay in this industry it will be necessary to have a subsidy to carry them over the lean period.

The view has been expressed, and I am afraid the Department have accepted it, that there is no future for the industry. I remember a few years ago people were told to get out of the sheep industry but nobody would suggest that today. We are in a cycle at the moment but I am convinced it will pass and that it will be a case of the survival of the fittest. If beef imports into the EEC are restricted, as is likely, the swing from pig meat to beef consumption will be reversed and the consumption of pig meat will rise. If we could subsidise temporarily the pig producers to stay in business it would be an enormous help.

At the moment the situation is very serious. Last night I received the monthly returns from my own pig fattening station and the losses in the last month have been appalling. In 1973 we had a six-month period that was good but since then the losses have been very high. However, we are prepared to continue as we have confidence that the industry will survive. If we have not this confidence we can write off the small farmers, many of whom could not survive in another industry.

We are facing many problems at the moment. Proteins are scarce and the only substitutes we have are meat, bonemeal, fishmeal which does not give a good quality bacon, and dried grass protein which is only 10 per cent protein. I am thinking of a subsidy of about £4 per pig. It may be asked where this money will come from, but I would point out that before our entry into the EEC we were paying £29 million in agricultural subsidies. The pig industry vitally affects all the small farmers and I know the Parliamentary Secretary understands its importance.

I did not raise this question in order to send words of panic from this House; I did it so that the people concerned might be told that the Government will do all they can to help them to stay in the industry. I am convinced the wheel will turn in favour of pig meat. I am not blaming this or any other Government; it has been the policy of the Department during the years to go all out for some line of production to the detriment of other sectors. It has always happened that the wheel went full turn and ultimately the neglected sector came out on top. I should like the Minister to state that he is prepared to give a subsidy. I realise he will have to get permission from the EEC but Britain has done this and there is no reason we should not do likewise.

I did not raise this matter to make political capital out of a world situation but I am appealing to the Minister to take some action. It would be dreadful for any Government or Opposition to let down the pig producers. The pig fattening stations are a tremendous asset to the small farmers who produce bonhams. We kept the price up when it was uneconomical but we have faith in the industry. At the moment it is impossible to obtain money to make the fattening stations more efficient and this is not good policy. I may be blamed in two or three years time if the industry does not succeed but it is my firm conviction it will survive and prosper if help is given to it.

We would need a subsidy of approximately £4 per pig in order to carry us over the period; now we are suffering a loss of £2 per pig. Thousands of farmers depend completely on pig production and no Irish Government or Opposition can afford to let them down. We must support the small pig producers so that the industry may survive and prosper.

Mr. Leonard

This is a continuation of an appeal I made to the Minister in July, 1973, to come to the aid of the pig producers. From the Minister's latest statement it appears he cannot see any future for the industry and he is telling people to get out of it. At that time he said he thought the long-term figure for the pig industry was bright.

In the area I come from, the county committee of agriculture stated that 40 per cent of the farmers, in a county with 7,600 farmers, are involved in pig production, either in rearing or fattening pigs. That is an indication of how vitally important the pig industry is to small farmers. We must also take into consideration the amount of capital which was channelled into that industry over the past number of years. There are some fairly large producers who erected very costly buildings, very costly liquid manure tanks, and very costly feeding equipment. That equipment would be a loss if the pig industry failed. In a country where we produce something in the region of 1,500,000 pigs per year, the producers will have to be subsidised to tide them over a bad patch. It would be well worthwhile for the Department to spend £5 million or £6 million on this industry. This may sound like a lot of money but we must take into account the number of farmers who are involved in pig production.

We must also realise that the grain growers in the midlands and in the south are almost completely dependent on the pig producers to use the grain they are growing. If the pig industry fails the grain industry must also fail. It would be a very sad reflection on us if we reached the time when we had ships coming into Dublin with Danish bacon and taking out Irish grain. The officials of the Department should keep in mind the importance of using up home produced grain. We must subsidise the pig producers.

Mr. McDonald

Surely the Deputy accepts that the Minister is making a fair effort to do what he can to remedy this situation.

Mr. Leonard

We accept that it is a very difficult situation but six months ago the Minister maintained that the long-term outlook was good and six months is a long term in pig production.

Mr. C. Murphy

The reason I put down this question is that certain ambiguities and certain discontent have arisen within the pig industry which is now facing very hard times. The Department issued a Press release which was confined to pigs delivered to bacon factories and registered pork export premises only. This created uncertainty for private slaughterhouse owners who felt they would not be able to compete with the factories. I was requested to attend, and I was delighted to attend, a meeting in a Dublin hotel at which these people expressed their reservations. They said they had been in touch with the Department and the Department refused to extend the facilities to these slaughterhouses which they extended to factories.

The Minister said in his reply that he has since arranged to extend payments, where feasible, to certain premises at which large numbers of pigs are slaughtered for sale on the home market. Why was this not done originally? Why was this uncertainty allowed to creep in? Why was so much unpleasantness caused? Why should so many people feel that their business was in jeopardy? It came across loud and clear to me at that meeting that the proprietors of the slaughterhouses were only too willing to pass on the subsidy direct to the producer. I think we are entirely agreed that it is the producer who should obtain this subsidy and who must obtain it. They wanted nothing for themselves. They wanted to be in a position to pass on the subsidy to the farmers.

Mr. McDonald

They have not passed it on so far.

Mr. C. Murphy

I had a telephone call tonight which gave me information to the effect that it is operating. Possibly if I had got this information earlier today I might not have gone ahead with this question tonight. The Deputy has said that it is not functioning, but I can say that it is.

At this moment there is no confidence in the industry. The Minister and his Department added to this lack of confidence by their decision at the start to allow this EEC subsidy to come through the factories and not through the slaughterhouses. I should like to find out the minimum number of killings per week which the Department believe to be feasible in order to qualify for this subsidy. With increased costs in this industry, producers are facing a very bad time. Why should the Department add to the confusion and the lack of confidence at a time when the industry needs a boost to their morale? With Deputy Callanan and Deputy Leonard I call on the Minister to continue to subsidise this industry at a time of dire need.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. M.P. Murphy)

I appreciate the views expressed by Deputies opposite. I appreciate Deputy Callanan's sincerity and I know his interest in this question. I know he wants to help the pig industry in any way he possibly can which, as we all know, is going through a trying time. The same applies to the comments made by Deputy Leonard and Deputy Murphy. I am particularly interested in this question. I have spoken on it in this House on several occasions. I am personally conversant with the problems of the pig producers, particularly the smaller producers such as those you would find in south Galway and, I am sure, in Monaghan and Wicklow as well.

Deputy Murphy asked the Minister today if he would elaborate on the extensions relating to the EEC pig subsidy scheme. The reply which I took to be quite comprehensive gave the information which the Deputy sought. While I have said that the Deputies are genuinely and sincerely interested in this industry, I must say that they are not more interested than the Minister. Let us examine what the Minister is doing. First of all, by his efforts in Europe he has succeeded in getting this subsidy of £3.50 per pig on an average or £2.80 per cwt. He has also ensured that the subsidy is payable on pigs consumed on the home market as well as pigs for export.

When the Minister sought this subsidy to help the bacon industry the EEC were not anxious to extend it to bacon other than that for export but because of the Minister's endeavours he secured approval for the subsidy to be paid to all premises at which slaughtering of pigs is taking place. My information is that the subsidy has now been extended so much that almost 98 per cent of the pigs are covered by it. Deputy Murphy will appreciate that it would be impossible for the Department to provide inspectors at small butchers' premises as is required by EEC regulations to examine the few pigs being killed from time to time. The Minister and the Department have gone as far as possible but if there is some pork butcher who is not getting the benefit of this subsidy we shall be pleased to examine his application for the extension of the provisions of this order to his premises.

I have here a great deal of information on the operation of this scheme but it would take a very long time to read it to the House. The scheme came into operation on 23rd March. The Minister issued the Press release mentioned by Deputy Murphy on 5th April extending this to additional small premises. There was no undue delay between the introduction of the scheme and its extension to cover almost 98 per cent of the pigs produced.

Mr. C. Murphy

Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that this Press release only covered factories first?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Premises which are suitably equipped for weighing carcasses and in which the other requirements can be fulfilled. We are now in the EEC and must comply with EEC regulations. The scheme has been extended as far as possible and if there is any instance where the owner thinks he has a reasonable case and if it is brought to our attention we will try to help, if at all possible.

Deputy Leonard spoke about the subsidy of £4 per pig and said it should be paid from our own resources. We are taking the £2.80 per cwt. as equivalent to about £3.50 per pig but the Minister succeeded not only in getting approval for this subsidy in addition to the factory price, but also got approval for its payment from EEC funds, as against the British subsidy of a similar amount which is payable from the British Exchequer. As regards Deputy McDonald's interjection about not getting the benefit of the subsidy, according to my information this subsidy must be shown separately in the document which the supplier gets for his pigs. That is a condition of the scheme.

Mr. McDonald

The subsidy was passed on and received but the benefit was passed on to the consumer.

Mr. C. Murphy

The subsidy only makes up for the drop in price.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Nobody is more interested in or more worried about the position of our pig industry at present than the Minister. He has achieved a great deal in getting approval for this subsidy and this very day, while we are talking on this question here, the Minister is in Europe further discussing the pig industry position. I hope some good news will be forthcoming as a result of his efforts. The House may be assured that the Minister is anxious to see the pig industry continuing. He realises and appreciates, as I do, its value to the economy and to people such as those represented by Deputies Leonard and Callanan and my namesake and myself. I was very pleased to note the constructive way this subject was approached by Deputy Callanan in his remarks. He said that he was optimistic and hoped the industry would recover and that the position would improve. I join with him in that hope and I assure him that it is also the hope of the Department, and the Minister particularly, that every effort will be made to restore the industry to a profitable position. It is a source of worry that pig production profitability is not good at present. That cannot be denied. We have to sell in a competitive market and conform with EEC regulations. We cannot grant subsidies from our own funds without approval. We entered EEC to abolish agricultural subsidies and we cannot have it both ways. We are either in the EEC or out of it. This is the present subsidy and it will remain for some weeks to come. I cannot say what the future possibilities are.

Deputy Callanan mentioned cycles. Possibly we are in a bad cycle at present and have been for a few months but it is hoped the wheel will turn and that the position will become more favourable. Deputy Leonard also agreed that the position was very difficult and irrespective of what Ministers or Government are in office the same would apply. In fact, it might not be as favourable as it is now because I am satisfied from my personal knowledge that our Minister is doing an excellent job and is particularly interested in this problem.

Mr. C. Murphy

When is it anticipated that the £1.25 million will be exhausted?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The present subsidy is continuing until 2nd June and the position will then be reviewed. New circumstances may arise before then. The position is liable to change from week to week or month to month. I am grateful to the three Deputies who addressed themselves to this question. Their statements were constructive and I appreciate that and if the Minister were here he would also appreciate that they are all genuinely interested in trying to help the industry as Members of the national Parliament. So far as the Minister and I are concerned, and the Department officials dealing with the pig industry, Deputies are assured of every co-operation and that every effort will be made to preserve and improve the industry. I trust that the industry will continue to thrive for many years to come as Deputy Callanan mentioned in his optimistic statement.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 1st May, 1974.