asked the Minister for Education if he will grant permanent recognition to untrained teachers in national schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
22.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Untrained Teachers.
21.
asked the Minister for Education the number of untrained teachers at present teaching in national schools who have received notice of termination of services from his Department from 30th June next; why this notice was issued at this time; and if he will consider their appeal for a further crash training course to enable many of them to qualify as trained teachers.
Mr. R. Burke
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 21 and 22 together.
In March of this year notice issued from my Department to 238 unqualified persons who are serving temporarily as teachers in national schools that their employment would be terminated not later than 30th June, 1975, since the number of qualified newly-trained teachers who will be available as from 1st July, 1975, will be sufficient to allow of all teaching posts in national schools being filled by qualified teachers. It should be understood that each person concerned, being unqualified, was recognised temporarily only until such time as the school manager succeeded in obtaining the services of a qualified teacher and that the circumstances of their being so recognised conferred no right to continued recognition or to future recognition as teacher.
Special summer courses of training have been provided for some years past for qualified untrained teachers, but persons who were not already qualified as untrained teachers were not accepted on these courses, which have now come to an end. There could be no question of instituting a special course to enable persons not already qualified as national teachers to obtain trained status. Such persons, however, would be eligible to enter as mature students for the annual competition for admission to the normal course of training as national teacher, provided they satisfied the requirements as to age and standard of education.
Is the Minister aware that a number of those 238 people on whom he served notice had already given devoted service over a 25-year period and that their argument is that it was the application of too strict a rule in relation to the crash course which kept them from doing it? Is he also aware that some of them worked as principals in one-teacher schools and various managers were extremely pleased to have them? Would he not consider the possibility of introducing a crash course applicable to a number of them?
Mr. R. Burke
There is no question of a special course for unqualified teachers. They have the option, if they meet the requirements as to age and standard of education, of applying as mature students for the normal training college examination.
Would the Minister agree that this is a cruel and harsh decision on his part, which will cause untold hardship to the 238 people who gave loyal, faithful and good service to the Irish educational system when there were no others to give that service and that his treatment of them will go down in history as cruel, harsh and unrewarding for the service they have given the nation? Would the Minister change his attitude and agree on a final crash course this year, allow each of those 238 people to take that course and set a reasonable standard to give them an opportunity either to qualify or not to qualify?
This is a long question.
This is very harsh treatment of those people who have given such loyal service.
Mr. R. Burke
As the Deputy knows, the reason, as I explained in answer to the question, is that we have 1,100 newly-trained national teachers coming out this year for whom posts had to be made available.
Where will those people go? Will they go on the dole with the 103,000 already there?
Would the Minister reconcile his statement that he will have sufficient national teachers available in 1975 with the fact that all national teachers have expressed grave concern at the very high pupil/teacher ratio at the present moment? This decision, which will now remove 238 teachers from the pool of teaching, is taken at a most inopportune time when the Minister will lose a year's teaching from those with the three years course. Those with three years from now on will get an extension. Does he not see that this decision, leaving out the fact of how hard it is on the people who have given such devoted service, will aggravate the situation, which has become intolerable.
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy, of course, will acknowledge that in 1973 and 1974 we reduced the pupil/teacher ratio. In reply to his specific supplementary, the availability of trained teachers will not affect the pupil/ teacher ratio one way or the other. The decision to allocate more posts in national schools is one which is un-related to this specific question.
Would the Minister state why 1,100 students were taken into training a couple of years ago?
Mr. R. Burke
To make available more trained teachers than were then available.
The Minister will be aware that the improvement in the pupil/teacher ratio in 1973 and 1974 was as a result of the fact that the Fianna Fáil Government brought more students into training in those years to ensure that the pupil/teacher ratio would be improved. The fact that the 1,100 are coming out this year was also because the original intention was to utilise extra teachers to improve the pupil/teacher ratio but for some unknown reason——
Could we have brief, specific questions?
——the Minister has now decided to withdraw recognition from teachers over 65——
The Deputy is embarking on a long statement.
——and to withdraw recognition from English-trained teachers and also to withdraw recognition for untrained teachers. This is completely against our policy of reducing the pupil/teacher ratio.
We have to have relevant and brief supplementaries.
I will be glad of a reply to my query because the Minister knows perfectly well the reason why those extra students were taken in. It was to reduce the pupil/teacher ratio. The Minister has claimed often enough that he has reduced the pupil/ teacher ratio in 1973 and 1974 when he knows perfectly well that he had nothing at all to do with it.
Mr. R. Burke
If we want to have a semantic duel the Deputy can take his point.
Question No. 23.
I want to ask a supplementary question.
The Chair allowed a good number of supplementaries on the last two questions. I will allow one final supplementary, Deputy Wilson.
I want to ask a supplementary question.
We cannot debate the matter. The Deputy will have to find another opportunity. A final supplementary from Deputy Wilson.
We can bring the Minister back tonight.
Could the Minister say what will happen in the case of a school which has an untrained teacher and which cannot get a trained teacher to teach in the school?
Mr. R. Burke
What has happened in recent years is that managers have been exhorted at regular intervals by the Department to replace unqualified, untrained teachers.
I am not getting a reply. What happens in 1975-76 if a teaching position, which is held at the moment by an untrained teacher, cannot be filled by a trained one? If the manager cannot get a trained teacher what is the position?
Mr. R. Burke
The Minister will consider all these things in the light of the position then obtaining.
Question No. 23.
The then Minister will consider it. That is an unlikely situation.
(Interruptions.)
In the figure given by the Minister of the 238 untrained teachers does that include religious in capitation schools?
Mr. R. Burke
No, because they are not unqualified, untrained teachers.
Is the Minister saying there are no unqualified religious teachers?
Mr. R. Burke
Unqualified and untrained?
Yes.
Mr. R. Burke
There are some but there is no differentiation made between categories of teachers. The figure given is for those who are unqualified and untrained. If any people are unqualified and untrained they are included in that figure.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I would like to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
I will communicate with Deputy Lalor on the matter.