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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Nov 1976

Vol. 294 No. 4

Adjournment Debate: Differential Rent.

I wish to raise the subject matter of Question No. 8 which was put down in the name of Deputy Faulkner:

To ask the Minister for Local Government the rent paid to a local authority by a tenant on differential rent who was in receipt of unemployment or disability benefit of £29.40 per week prior to 17th September, 1976; and the rent paid to a local authority by a tenant on differential rent who became entitled to unemployment or disability benefit of £29.40 subsequent to 17th September, 1976.

Tonight we listened to a discussion which dealt with violence, a violence that is not easy to pinpoint. Here we have institutional violence where we can pinpoint the situation and point the finger at the Minister for Local Government and the Government for this savage increase that has been inflicted on the unemployed.

The Minister told local authorities they could increase rents to meet some of the maintenance charges. These rent increases will to a large extent hit the unemployed or the person on disability benefit. A husband with a wife and four children who was on unemployment or disability benefit prior to 17th September paid 53p rent and with pay-related benefit £1.95. A person in similar circumstances who became unemployed after the 17th September pays £3.44 and, on pay-related benefit paid £5.51. Now we have the situation of two unemployed neighbours, with the same number in family and the same outgoings and income, and one pays 53p rent and the other £3.44. This is victimising the unemployed person or the person on disability benefit. We are hitting the weaker sections of the community.

There is no employment for these people. Many people in my constituency, Ballyfermot, Drimnagh and elsewhere, would be glad to have employment so that they could meet their commitments and pay the higher rent. The unemployed person who did not get the recent increase in the social welfare benefits to meet the cost of living was the victim of this vicious attack by the Coalition. Now the Minister further increases the burden on the man who, through no fault of his own, became unemployed after the 17th September. I do not believe NATO were a party to this racket. When the unemployed examine this situation they will let the Minister know just what they think of this viscious assault.

Before 17th September a man with a wife and three children had an income of £26.80 and was paying a rent of 49p. A man in similar circumstances who became unemployed after that date pays £2.67 rent. Where is the equity there? When the Minister came to power we were told that the renting system was wrong and that he was the saviour of the people who paid rent. There was a rent strike at that time because 4p were imposed to meet maintenance costs. This is not a small increase. The difference for a man with a wife and three children, without pay-related benefit, is an increase of £2.18. If NATO agreed with this they should examine their consciences again. I do not believe any reasonable man would agree with the Minister about this. The Minister for Finance has been prodding and pushing the Minister for Local Government and he has yielded to this pressure. He probably does not like to do this but he has done it and inflicted this injury on the weaker section of the community. This is an appalling situation. We were asked the difference a man with four children who was unemployed on 17th and another who was unemployed on 18th would have to pay, and the answer is £2.91. If the Minister thinks that a man who became unemployed on 17th September has enough to live on with £29 less 53p rent, then justice was done in that rent scheme. How then does he expect his next door neighbour who is in the same circumstances and became unemployed on 18th September to live on £26? Even at this stage I ask the Minister to withdraw this rent scheme and introduce a scheme that will be fair and just to the unemployed. This is a deliberate attempt by the Government to inflict additional hardship on the people who did not get what they were entitled to in the recent social welfare increases. This is a very serious situation.

Let us look at the man whose family are working and whose family income is increased by £20 or £29 a week. He will be expected to pay an increase of 50p per week, yet the person on unemployment or disability benefit is expected to pay a further £3 a week. This is a social scandal, institutional violence at its worst and we can pinpoint the perpetrators. If a man can get employment he should not be on low rent. Give these people jobs. Let them earn a decent income. There is no point in the Minister saying that if a man is earning £29 a week he should pay the increase. There is no man earning £29 a week; the lowest pay for a labourer is approximately £40 a week.

This is one of the most savage attacks ever launched on the weaker section of this community by this or any other Government. They have tried to do one thing, to divide the tenants among themselves. What will a man say when he realises that he has to pay £3.44 rent each week when his next door neighbour, also unemployed, has to pay only 53p? There is no justice in this situation and the Minister must rectify it at the earliest possible moment.

The increases are higher as we go through this long list. For a husband with a wife and five children the difference is even greater. In some cases these tenants have already been charged 50p or 60p extra for central heating. Therefore, on top of the £3.44 this man had to pay an increase for central heating and last night's rates increase will cost some corporation tenants in recently built houses another 40p per week. This shows that the increase does not stop at £3.44.

The Minister's purpose seems to be to plunge local authorities into a state of utter confusion. One day he issues a circular to them asking them to do one thing and the next a reverse order is issued. Last week we had a nightrider from the Custom House to the corporation with instructions to the Minister's supporters there to jackboot the outrageous rate through all opposition.

The Deputy should not go outside the subject matter of the question.

The level of the rate has an enormous effect on tenants. Is it any wonder that there are rent arrears of £1½ million? The present rents system is iniquitous and inequitable. For instance, if a man paying the 53p rent gets temporary employment for a week or two at Christmas he will jump immediately into the £3.44 bracket. People who are unable to do so are asked to pay outrageously high rents and consequently the local authority here suffer these massive arrears. Local representatives are being ignored by the Minister who appears to have ears only for groups who are not representative and who are not elected.

We have become used to Deputy Dowling's obtuse political contributions on this and other issues. I might at once point out that the rent arrears in Dublin in April, 1973, when I took office, were £1.350 million and in 1976 they amounted to £1,412 million. Deputy Dowling can do his subtraction on these figures and tell us whether these arrears accumulated during the disastrous strike that occurred during Fianna Fáil's term. He spoke about Fianna Fáil's opposition to what he called unrepresentative people. There was an unjustified attack on NATO. This is not the first time such an attack has been launched by him and his party. I want to make it very clear that I consider the National Association of Tenants Organisations a respectable body of men and women representing a respectable body of men and women and I am glad of their co-operation when they discuss these matters. They make a very hard bargain and I am glad to have discussions with them.

As I explained in the course of my replies to supplementary questions on the original question tabled by Deputy Faulkner, Deputy Faulkner pursued his question fairly well as far as he could. Deputy Dowling was not in the House but came in just when the supplementaries were finished and the Chair had called the next question.

I was in the House. This is the Minister's deliberate line again. I came in with Deputy Faulkner and I remained here during the discussion.

Deputy Dowling spoke for 20 minutes, without the slightest interruption——

The Minister is telling a deliberate untruth and I will not stand for that and neither will anyone in this party.

Deputy Dowling seems intent on disrupting the proceedings. He has accused a Member of a deliberate falsehood. He must withdraw that remark.

He is a stranger to the truth. I withdraw the other comment.

The Minister now, without interruption.

Deputy Dowling has on more than one occasion repeated the remark of my being a stranger to the truth. May I point out now, and not for the first time, that it was from those benches people were found telling deliberate lies by judges of the High Court and Deputy Dowling should remember that before he accuses me or anyone on these benches of not telling the truth. As far as I am concerned, I will stand on my record inside or outside this House. I am not afraid to go before the general public at any time and state facts. Deputy Dowling stood up, in a fit of pique at the end of a long number of supplementary questions and, when he was not allowed by the Chair to ask another supplementary question—obviously he was not interested until then—he immediately asked permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment. He is entitled to do so, of course, so long as the Chair allows him, but the thing about it is it shows a petty mind when someone attempts to do something like this because Deputy Dowling knows better than anybody else does the disgraceful conditions in which tenants of local authority houses were allowed to live by Fianna Fáil Governments.

Tell us about the rent. We did not screw them in this way.

Deputy Dowling knows better than anybody else the disgraceful conditions under which they were living and the disgraceful rents they were charged and, when arrangements are made with the National Association of Tenants Organisations, Deputy Dowling comes in here and starts to slag the National Association of Tenants Organisations. As far as this agreement is concerned——

We did not screw them.

Would Deputy Dowling please keep quiet for a minute. He keeps up a continuous yap, yap, yap.

Tell us about the rents.

Deputy Dowling, this is not good enough.

I will not be put off by Deputy Dowling. The National Association of Tenants Organisations were a party to this agreement. They were speaking for the tenants, as Deputy Dowling is not, as he knows quite well himself. Every time the question of deductions from income arose we had complaints from the benches opposite that up to now people who were working were being dealt with unfairly because of the fact that the people who were unemployed were not paying near as much and examples were quoted across the floor of the House again and again and the question asked why was this allowed. Now, we have made an arrangement, and we made that arrangement after discussing the matter with the representatives of the tenants. At their suggestion the change was made in the rent structure and there was a clause that those who were up to the 17th September last drawing benefit would not be affected because they had been on sick or unemployment benefit for a period and therefore were not in the same position as those who would become unemployed on and after that date. They asked that this clause be included and it was included. To hear somebody now like Deputy Dowling coming in here talking about unfair treatment of the tenants of local authority houses would make a cat laugh because when he was on this side of the House, a backbencher, anything was good enough for the tenants in the local authority houses. Anything that was introduced he trooped through the lobby and supported and he has the hard neck now to come in here and attempt to pretend that he is the knight in shining armour out to defend the tenants.

The change in the renting structure came about last September and was announced by the Minister for Finance in the budget. I am not hiding behind him. I mention the fact there was an agreement made, a very definite commitment made and agreed to, and the Minister for Finance announced it way back long before last January, long before it came into operation. The position was the Government had taken a comprehensive look at the disposable income of persons who became unemployed and in view of the widespread and justified criticism of the fact that many unemployed persons had a greater disposable income than when they were working decided that certain action was necessary and there was a chorus from the Fianna Fáil benches about these people who were unemployed and who were so well off they would never go to work again and, when we do something about that, they have a foot on the other side of the fence. Mark you, Fianna Fáil over the last few years have tried to have a foot on each side of the fence and have come to grief and they will find this is another exercise they will fall down on. No income tax is payable on social benefits and, of course, while a man is unemployed he is no longer liable to pay social welfare contributions.

Deputy Dowling talked about the man getting £40 a week. Unfortunately there are many people in this city who are not getting £40 a week— he knows that just as well as I do— and they are paying as much in rent, and sometimes slightly more than, the man who is unemployed. But there is now a measure of justice in what is being done because of the fact that nobody can now say one man is getting away with 55p per week and someone else, who goes out at eight o'clock in the morning to work and comes back at six or half past six in the evening, getting almost the same income as the man who is unemployed, is in fact paying £3 or £4 a week. This is what everybody wanted and, when it was done, Deputy Dowling decided there was something in this for him and he would come in here and shout in this House to pretend he was very annoyed about the unfortunate council tenants. My word, if they were depending on Deputy Dowling and his crowd they would be in a pretty bad way. I suggest the Deputy's real grievance is not that some people may have to pay a higher rent but that the man who is unemployed on 17th September last should also be subject to a higher rent liability.

I did not say that.

That is what the Deputy was saying before this—this would be unfair to the man who was unemployed for a long period. There are two very important points of difference between the present national differential rent scheme and the scheme imposed by Fianna Fáil Ministers for Local Government on local authorities and their tenants, differences which Deputy Faulkner has chosen to ignore. First, the assessable income, not the total income, of the principal earner is relatively low. He gets a personal allowance of £7 a week plus 83p a week for each child and he is then asked to pay only 1/12th of the remaining income in rent. Contrast this with the Fianna Fáil scheme under which the principal earner got a personal allowance of only £1 to £2 a week and a children's allowance only at the discretion of the local authority and then, no matter how small his income, he was assessed for rent on 1/7th of the remainder. Which system would any tenant opt for? The tenants know when they are doing well and Deputy Dowling will find that at the next general election.

The second important feature of our new rents scheme is the discretion given to local authorities to agree in cases of genuine hardship to accept from a tenant for a specified period a lesser sum for rent than would ordinarily be due by him. There was no similar concession in Fianna Fáil's scheme of rents. The arrangement was made, as I say, with NATO and there is no question that they were opposed to it and I believe they represent the tenants and Deputy Dowling knows that too. What sort of a city councillor is Deputy Dowling if he does not know that there is such a thing operated by Dublin Corporation as a rates waiver scheme under which deserving persons, such as unemployed persons, persons on disability benefit and old age pensioners, can have part of their rates waived and corporation tenants can benefit the same as any other ratepayer? Deputy Dowling should know these things and not be making a damn fool of himself coming in here.

The Minister did not tell us about the increases. Can he justify the increases?

Deputy Dowling will not get away with any trickery.

The Minister sends out more circulars.

Deputy Dowling will not get away with any trickery. When they turn up in the Custom House or anywhere else they are held to what they say because both the corporation side and our side take minutes and, if the minutes coincide, those are the minutes of the meeting.

It is not a minute.

The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 24th November, 1976.

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