Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Mar 1978

Vol. 304 No. 9

Adjournment Debate. - Firearms Control and Licensing.

Mr. Harte

This is not an easy subject on which to speak. There are circumstances that must be appreciated fully by an Opposition spokesman. First, I should like to extend sympathy to the family of the man who was killed in this city at the weekend, an incident which presses me to put my views before the House. It was an action that shocked all of us into asking whether there are measures that we should be taking in an effort to prevent other such incidents recurring. There are no simple solutions but I think I am expressing the view of many people when I say that sawn-off shotguns are being used too frequently in bank raids and other robberies and we cannot continually ignore the threat they offer to society and how easily they can come into the hands of misguided people. I know that farmers and members of gun clubs require guns to shoot vermin and game. I know the arguments the Minister may put forward that keeping guns collected in one place, such as a garda station, might be a greater danger. and that, as we have an unarmed police force, it would be rather difficult for them to protect a large number of shotguns. I am not asking for this.

I believe that the views of farmers and those of gun club members should be respected. A tribute should be paid to the members of gun clubs for the way they co-operate with the authorities and the high standards they practise as sportsmen and in encouraging the reproduction of game stock. At the outset of the troubles in 1969 members of the FCA had guns which they kept in their homes and for security reasons they were then brought to a central point and they were kept under military control. The authorities seem to have become slightly relaxed now when they are not having shotguns under military control or supervision. I do not want to use this occasion to hammer the Government for lack of interest or to criticise the Minister for Justice for not taking a greater interest in this matter because there is no such thing as absolute security.

I believe, however, that by bringing this matter before the House tonight I am bringing before the Minister the need for up-to-date thinking on this particular problem. It is frightening to think that any man can walk into a house where he knows a gun is kept and force the owner of the gun, his wife or his family to hand it over. That can happen in any house in the Republic where a gun is kept. While I appreciate all the difficulties that the Department and the Garda authorities have, I do not think it is good enough to say that it is not easy to collect the guns and keep them in central storage places under military control. We should look at the way the FCA guns are held in central points under military control and we should look at the military establishments situated throughout the Republic. How many miles would a particular gun club member have to travel to collect his gun on the morning of a shoot? Would this be a great inconvenience to that member?

The apparent reason for the murder of the Dublin man in his home recently was that he kept a gun in his home. If members of gun clubs had to collect their guns from a central storage place greater scrutiny would be achieved and if they did not keep guns in their homes they would not expose their families to the dangers the murdered man's family were in. I believe that the horror of what happened in Dublin can happen in any persons home, whether it is in County Donegal or County Cork, and must alert the authorities and they must do more than just say that they cannot bring in every gun in the country.

A sawn-off shogun is more dangerous than a rifle. It is not easy to conceal a rifle if a person is walking through the streets of this city or travelling in a motor car in going to rob a bank. It is very easy to cut down a shotgun and a man can hide it by putting it in his inside pocket. If a shotgun is cut down like that it loses its total identification and there is no way it can be established that the shots came from a particular gun.

I believe that each year every licensed gun holder should bring his gun to the Garda barracks for inspection or maybe more often. I have total sympathy with the authorities because there is no such thing as absolute security. I have sympathy with farmers and members of gun clubs but tighter security demands effort on the part of us all. I am sure that I will not be a very popular person with the people who believe that they have the right to hold licensed guns in their homes, but I believe, as a public representative, that I would not be fulfilling my duty if I did not, as spokesman for my party on security, use this opportunity to have a discussion with the Minister about the threat sawn-off shotguns are for society.

I understand that the only rifle which can be held under license at the moment is a .22 but there is a bullet which is now used in those rifles, a .22 250 which I am told is a high velocity type and is as lethal as a .303 bore. Those guns should be kept under tighter security.

The Fine Gael Party are thinking about the security aspect of the threat of sawn-off shotguns and other weapons held by licensed holders, and, as I have said, there is no easy answer and I know there is no absolute security. However, something will have to be done and if it inconveniences people who are licensed holders we hope it will not be for too long. Those people will know that they will not subject their families to the dangers of having guns in their homes and having people raid their homes to get these guns. I assure the Minister that we will work in harmony with him and will co-operate in every way possible.

There are three military installations in Donegal, at Finner, Lifford and Letterkenny. Almost all of the gun clubs in Donegal, with the exception of those in the Inishowen Peninsula, would not have to travel more than ten or 15 miles to collect them. Some arrangement could be made to store the guns in County Donegal at any of those military installations. Exceptions could be made for farmers who have to have guns in their farmyards all of the time to shoot vermin. I would ask the Minister to give serious consideration to the problem I have outlined, the threat which a sawn-off shotgun causes society at this time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has ten minutes.

Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy (Mr. O'Malley)

I thought I had until 9 o'clock.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ten minutes is the limit. The Deputy did not take his full time. The Minister has ten minutes to reply.

Mr. O'Malley

I assure the Deputy that I would be perfectly willing to consider the introduction of further controls on firearms if I thought that any further controls were necessary or would be beneficial. The controls which exist on the possession, use and carriage of firearms are particularly stringent. They are far more stringent than controls operated in almost any other country and are considerably more stringent than the controls operated on firearms in Northern Ireland. I have a fair knowledge of the problem of controlling firearms because I introduced the Firearms Act, 1971 which made major changes in relation to our firearms law, and I made the order in July 1972 calling up all firearms other than shotguns, .22 rifles and those of a smaller calibre. At that time one of the suggestions I made was that if a similar move was made in Northern Ireland, it would go at least part of the way towards easing the problems and bloodshed there. Unfortunately, my suggestion to the then Secretary of State, Mr. Whitelaw, went unheeded and as far as I know every succeeding Secretary of State has not heeded it either. The present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is very security conscious and loses no opportunity to lecture those whom he considers less able at the job than he is. I suggest that if he now did what I did in 1971 and 1972, even at this late stage, it would be of help.

Since I made that Order in 1972 there are no non-sporting weapons lawfully held here. There are licensed shotguns, airguns and rifles of .22 calibre and less. The number of licensed shotguns at the moment is 106,000 approximately, the number of airguns and rifles of .22 calibre and less is approximately 25,000, and .22 rifles and airguns are of little value in a criminal context. Unless shotguns are sawn off, they are of no value either. The tragedy is that there appears to be quite a number of unlawfully held weapons and the great bulk of the trouble emanates from those and not from lawfully held weapons. There are very occasional raids on the holders of licensed shotguns in order to get possession of the guns, but as far as we can judge these raids seem to be very infrequent. The tragedy in Dublin some days ago mentioned by Deputy Harte is not an example of his kind of raid. If this man held any licensed shotguns those who raided the house did not steal them or attempt to steal them as far as one knows. I am not certain that the motive for that crime which Deputy Harte accredited to these people who perpetrated it is the actual motive.

Mr. Harte

The point I am making is that a sawn-off shotgun was used.

Mr. O'Malley

That does not mean that it was ever a licensed weapon. In addition to that, the number of armed robberies and incidents of that kind in which sawn-off shotguns are used is quite small. The firearm or weapon normally used is a hand gun and these have been illegal in all circumstances since July, 1972. The very possession of a hand gun carries a penalty of five years' imprisonment, which was introduced in the Firearms Act, 1971, and that is without proof of criminal intent. Much longer terms can be imposed for any proved improper or unlawful intent. So far as I can judge, because the Deputy did not say specificially, Deputy Harte seems to be suggesting that we should now call up shotguns, .22 rifles and airguns. The Deputy talked about the inconvenience that this would cause to farmers and to sportsmen but he thought they would put up with it in the circumstances and then suggested that there could be exceptions for farmers who had to shoot vermin. Earlier on the Deputy said that the cause of some of these raids was that it was known that somebody had a licensed weapon. If the Deputy made exceptions for certain farmers it would be known very quickly by the neighbours and everyone in the locality, including presumably criminally minded people, that particular farmers have these weapons. I do not really know what Deputy Harte hopes to achieve by this.

The inconvenience caused by calling up 131,000 lawfully held weapons which are of little or no value to those of criminal mentality whether subversive or otherwise has to be balanced against whatever marginal good might be obtained by calling up the weapons. I and my colleague, the Minister for Justice, would be perfectly prepared to call up those weapons if we thought the public interest would be served by doing so but we are satisfied that on balance it would not. The vast majority of the cases of armed violence occurring here occur as a result of the possession of illegally held unlicensed weapons. We feel therefore that on balance nothing would be gained and enormous inconvenience and difficulty would be created. I am conscious even at a remove of almost six years of the great deal of inconvenience caused to many law abiding people by the calling up of weapons in 1972 but I felt that the public interest required it and I still hold that view. There is no question of that order of 1972 being changed but the 131,000 weapons we are now talking about are in a totally different category and the inconvenience and trouble that would be caused by doing as Deputy Harte suggests would be out of all proportion to whatever slight marginal gain might be achieved by calling them up. We have to bear in mind that in spite of what we hear in the lectures we have been getting from London over the past few weeks there could be a fairly free movement of a huge number of weapons both lawfully held and illegally held in Northern Ireland down to here. We would be putting our own people at enormous and unnecessary disadvantage without gaining anything.

The last time anything was done in relation to firearms in this country was by me in 1971 and in 1972. In the long intervening period apparently it was felt unnecessary or inappropriate to do anything else in spite of the fact that the situation at one stage during that period had reached such crisis proportions that the Government of the day felt it necessary to declare a state of emergency.

I want to assure the Deputy once more that, having considered his proposal from all angles, I am quite satisfied that the public interest would not be served by it and that the balance of inconvenience would be so great for whatever slight marginal gain might be achieved it would not be worth while, bearing in mind that there are at present in Northern Ireland a vast number of both licensed and unlicensed weapons of all calibres.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m., on Wednesday, 15 March 1978.