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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Mar 1978

Vol. 304 No. 10

Vote 29: Environment (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £201,684,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of December, 1978, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Environment, including grants to Local Authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing, and miscellaneous schemes and grants including a grant-in-aid.
—(Minister for the Environment.)

Last night I referred to the Minister's statement in regard to re-organisation of local government and I recalled that a former Minister for Local Government, Deputy Molloy, did issue a discussion document on this very important matter. It was a well presented document giving great food for thought and I am sure the feedback to the Minister was very valuable. Since then the city has changed somewhat and we must now take another look at the matter. I would suggest that Dublin, which has now become so very big, should be sub-divided into local councils and I would ask the Minister to consider bringing back local councils like the old Pembroke, Rathmines, Glasnevin and Drumcondra ones, so that we would have real local government. These local councillors should be elected by the people and given certain functions of a local nature. These small councils would then send delegates to the city council which would have the overall running of the city. In that way the smaller councils would be integrated in the structure. In that way we would have real local government and we could build up a very healthy structure of civic government involving as many people as possible.

The last revision of electoral areas was hardly equitable when one remembers that a man in No. 9 area represents about 30,000 people, far too big a number for any one man to represent. It just cannot be done. The No. 9 area has 60,000 voters and, if you multiply that by three, you get the total population of the area. It is far too big to ask any councillor to look after it properly. Perhaps the Minister would refer to this when he is replying.

Division of the city must come very shortly. One of the problems at the moment weighing against progress is the rapid growth all the time. This trend has been deplored. It has been going on since the industrial revolution but it has become accelerated in recent years. We made the mistake of trying to stop the drift to Dublin by making Dublin unattractive. We developed industries in provincial areas. This was a good idea but unfortunately we forgot about the people in the city with no employment and we now have the awful spectre of 50 per cent unemployment. We must now reverse our policy. We should, of course, make areas outside the city attractive but we should also have a balanced policy in regard to the capital city. It is anticipated that the population in Dublin will reach 1,000,000 in due process of time and provision must be made for these people. Again, city dwellers cannot just migrate to other areas and set up new homes. They have been living for generations in the city and the Government, aided by private enterprise, must now start giving Dublin a new deal. The deprived areas in Dublin cannot be matched anywhere. They are no hope areas. The people in these areas have stopped hoping. The best merely survive and many of the others go under.

We have to restructure vast areas of this city. Last night I recalled the action of some industrialists at the beginning of the century when they built places like the Iveagh Trust flats and the Markets. At that time that was a great advance and provided much needed accommodation in the city. Today, the private sector will have to join the Government and the local authority in rebuilding part of the city in order to give hope to the people living in these areas.

The housing situation has improved greatly in recent years but we still have a housing problem in these areas. We must have a look at the dwellings built in the thirties. While they are still habitable and some families are happy living in them, they do not stand up to examination by modern standards. We may be forced to do what the local authorities in Britain and the United States are doing: pulling down dwellings built about 30 years ago because the sociologists have discovered that some of those houses were not conductive to good living. We may have to start not alone building more dwellings but carry out a greater clearance in the city areas.

There are four or five areas both north and south of the Liffey which will have to be made reclearance areas because there are some very bad buildings there. Although some people are content to live there, others may revolt; and who can blame them? If one walks through one of these areas one is immediately aware of the depressing atmosphere. What chance has any boy or girl born into any of those areas to get a proper education, obtain employment and become a good citizen? These young people show their revolt in many ways, such as by acts of vandalism and so on. We must bear with them. We must correct our omissions and see what we have contributed to this type of violence. While we all deplore violence we must realise that we are to blame in part for some of it.

The Government were criticised because the White Paper suggested they would not be giving as much attention to the rebuilding of the centre of the city as they should. That White Paper says what I am saying: that we must bring the private sector to bear their share in the redevelopment of this city. This redevelopment will be hampered by the very high price of land. From this morning's newspapers one can see how house prices in Dublin have escalated. It is almost impossible for the local authority to buy land in the centre city areas.

I suggest that the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Economic Planning and Development look at ways of helping the local authority to buy land. The finances of a local authority are not endless, and they find it almost impossible to acquire land in centre city areas. We are building some dwellings in centre city areas. Each unit will cost approximately £25,000, because the local authority had to acquire the land, clear it and pay compensation. Could we institute some kind of land bond so that the local authority could acquire land and the repayments would be spread over a number of years? In this way they would not have to pay immediately for every acre they buy. If somebody does not come up with a solution to this problem we will not see the centre city redeveloped and we will not have a living city. Office blocks are no substitution for family dwellings. There may be a reason for building office blocks on the north side of the Liffey because it might improve the appearance of these depressed areas.

People who want to live in the centre of the city should be given the opportunity to do so. Our first priority must be housing. I appreciate the tremendous cost involved and that is why I say the private sector must play their part. If industrialists at the beginning of the century recognised that they had an obligation to invest in the development of the city in which they made their profits surely there is still an onus on industrial and commercial enterprises to do this today. We have seen gestures of this type from some go-ahead commercial and industrial enterprises. I appeal to them to come forward with a plan and to show their faith in the city by injecting a plentiful supply of money to rebuild the deprived areas of the city and make it a good place in which to live. It will be a tremendous task and will take the efforts of everybody—Government, local authority and private enterprise —but it must be done. If the democratic State do not do it, some people who do not believe in a democratic State may try to achieve their ends by any means and this could lead to more violence.

In his speech the Minister mentioned the progress being made to house itinerants. There have been great strides made in this direction, but this is a very tricky problem. We are all inclined to say "Yes, we must house the itinerants but not where I live". We must get over that attitude. This city has the most go-ahead body in the country to look after itinerants. There are several magnificent places for them. The real answer is to integrate them into our society. They should not be placed in special centres but in housing estates. This raises a problem. Many itinerants collect old scrap and it is not very nice to see a scrap heap in a residential area, and people resent this.

We differentiate between the itinerants who do not settle down but who want to live in their roadside camps, and some of the well-heeled traders who live in luxury caravans, carry on their trade buying and selling on the roadways and who leave the sites in a disgraceful state when they move on. We may be planning some policy in regard to these traders. They do the real itinerants a great injustice because the urban dweller and even the rural dweller is inclined to bunch them all together and to say that they are well off. The real itinerant is not very well off. There is something very tragic about a child begging on O'Connell Bridge or in Cork, Galway or anywhere else. The child is the victim of the system, of lack of parental control or lack of care by the State. I feel sure that under the present Minister there will be further headway in the drive towards giving itinerants a better way of life.

I wish to pay tribute to all those people who voluntarily give their time and offices in trying to help the itinerants. In particular, I pay tribute to Mr. Bewley and to those unnamed members of religious orders who do so much to educate these children. It may not be popular today to praise the religious orders but in this and many other fields they are doing colossal work which will be of lasting benefit not only to the itinerants but to our whole society. I hope that all itinerant families who wish to settle will be given the opportunity to do so. There may be historic reasons why they are itinerants but it is our job to give them every assistance to settle down and become good members of society. Their children are deprived from the moment they are born and we must do everything possible to give them a better way of life.

I refer the Minister to the workings of the 1969 Housing Act. This was introduced in order to prevent people from demolishing habitable buildings without permission. Local authorities are doing their best under the Planning Act and this Housing Act to ensure proper planning and to preserve as many buildings as possible. It is just as important to preserve the existing stock as it is to build new houses. The Act needs to be examined because it is weak in certain aspects. It is no trouble at all to the ruthless developer. A house on a good residential road may be left vacant for a while; windows will be broken and squatters will move in and the house will become derelict almost overnight. Local residents will ask for something to be done and the developer will move in. People will have anything rather than a derelict house full of squatters. Under the Act the local authority have the power to go in and repair that house but I do not know of one case where this has been done. I am told that the local authority are not happy about going into such a house and repairing it because it could be said that they had damaged the house and the owner could bring an action against them. The vast majority of developers are responsible people who want to do a good job but there is a minority who play all kinds of tricks, including the use of itinerants. They bring itinerants to live in a house so that they may knock it down and get planning permission more quickly. I would ask the Minister to strengthen the Housing Act.

Two or three years ago we had a special conservation year which was intended to preserve the best things in the country. Conservation is not an easy matter because the more industrialised we become the greater is the challenge to our existing amenities. It is often very difficult to decide between the preservation of an amenity and the factory which will employ 100 people. One cannot generalise about this problem; each case must be examined on its merits. We can, of course, have overall preservation areas but I often feel that we are hypocritical in that while we will not allow a factory which may pollute the air we do not object to our people having to go to some foreign part to find employment. Once they are out of our sight we forget about them. I applaud the efforts of the conservationists and the preservationists because they make us think about what we are doing, but we must have a balanced point of view. We must remember the difficulty experienced by our young people in obtaining employment and bear this in mind, as well as our conservation laws, when considering each application for a factory.

I am glad that the Minister is creating jobs for young people in local government. I applaud this and I hope that he will expand this policy. A lot of work could be done by young people until such time as they take up a real career. If we could give them this kind of interim work it would help them and help the country in general.

Regarding the pollution of rivers, someone has said that local authorities are the worst offenders. However, all over the world there are big cities which have cleansed their rivers and brought back marine life. I pay tribute to the Greater London Council for the work they have done in regard to the River Thames. A few years ago the Thames was so poisoned that to fall into it meant almost instant death. They have spent vast sums on cleansing the river and they have now brought back fish life. That river carries a tremendous amount of shipping from all over the world, much more than is carried by any of our rivers.

In the Dublin area the Grand Canal drainage scheme and the Dodder Valley drainage scheme will bring about a great improvement within two years. The Dodder will be made as clean as possible and the Liffey will be much cleaner. Any river which is used by shipping is likely to be polluted by oil. We must tighten the laws and anyone who breaks them must be made to pay the cost of repairing the damage. We must be really tough on those who unnecessarily or wantonly pollute air, land or rivers.

The same applies in regard to our streets. This city has not an enviable reputation regarding cleanliness. There are, however, vast areas of the city where one will see very clean streets but we are still not getting the message across that the prevention of pollution starts with each one of us. Throwing litter on the streets is the same as any other kind of pollution. Appeals to people do not seem to have the effect that we hoped for. It is only a minority of people who litter the streets. Perhaps the Minister would put forward a scheme in conjunction with the local authorities to keep Ireland beautiful. It is not just a matter of visual offence. It is a matter of economics because tourists will not come to a place that is not clean. In that area many of the continental cities are an example to us. They may err in other ways but one seldom sees littered streets in European countries. I would ask the Minister to urge local authorities to step up their drive against pollution in all its aspects. It is a matter of education and, while I hate adding to the burden of schools, I would ask the school authorities to appeal to their students not to pollute our cities or the countryside. The young people are the future builders and the future government of the country and they should be encouraged, as part of their duty to their own community, to keep our country clean.

Now that we are a member of the EEC we have greater weapons in our fight for the proper preservation of the environment. I am not just speaking of the money that may be available for this purpose. The peoples of the other eight nations in the Community are very conscious of the need to preserve the environment so that people may live proper lives in their own communities. The technological age has brought problems. Many people fear the nuclear plants although I do not know if we know enough about the whole matter to condemn or accept them. However, all the time people are arguing about nuclear plants they are causing damage to their health because of pollution of the environment. It will cost a lot of money to prevent pollution but it will cost much more if we do not take effective steps in this matter. I would urge the Minister to give serious consideration to this matter.

I feel very strongly about rebuilding the centre part of Dublin. Other cities throughout the country have the same problem but not to the same extent. It is no consolation to tell us that cities like New York or London have this frightful problem; for some reason the centre of those cities has decayed also. It may be wrong to compare Dublin with New York or London because of the difference in size but basically the problem is the same. We must face the fact that it will cost a tremendous amount of money to do the job I mentioned for our city. I invite any Member of the House to walk around some of the deprived parts of this city. He or she will get some idea of what has to be done. We could adopt some of our preservation policies to help in the matter.

In this connection I should like to mention our canals. The Grand Canal is in a fairly good state in most parts of the city but unfortunately the same cannot be said for the Royal Canal. We could start some major public works on both canals, particularly on the Royal Canal. It would be possible to have a waterway almost to Belfast, to the west and to the south. Our roads may become so overburdened with traffic that we may have to use the canals as a means of transport for some of our goods. Apart from that, our waterways are a tourist attraction. I realise the Minister has a lot to do but I hope he will give top priority to the rebuilding of Dublin city centre and to the preservation of the waterways.

I have read carefully the lengthy submission of the Minister with regard to this mammoth Estimate for his Department. While wishing him well in his job and while having little doubt that he will tackle it to the best of his ability, I should like to put some ideas before him which I submit with great respect and which I would ask him to consider seriously.

I do not believe that the Estimate hits at the central problems of the environment in the broadest sense of the word. I think the Minister is chained to some extent—I suppose it must be a voluntary submission—to traditional patterns of expenditure in this area. The previous slavish practice of comparing like with like is found in the Estimate and there is no essential value or worth in that exercise beyond saying that we have spent a little more in some areas than was spent previously.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider if this approach is relevant any more because it implies that for all time the ratios of importance, the proportionality of expenditure and the relative importance of one heading to another heading is forever set out and will always be that way with little deviation. I should like to suggest to the Minister that social developments in this country, particularly in the last decade, point to the need for a major overhaul of the way we have been doing things under the aegis initially of the Department of Local Government and now under the Department of the Environment. I had hoped that the change of name of the Department would herald some review or radical approach in this area but I have yet to see any evidence of it.

I shall try to confine my remarks to one of the major challenges facing us, namely, the problem of the city, particularly the inner city. I know it may be tedious for some people to have to listen for too long to a discussion on the problems of the inner cities of Dublin, Cork, Galway or Limerick, but I want to ask them to be patient. I should like them to consider carefully that the thoughts I am putting forward are meant most sincerely and are put forward with a view to trying to get a constructive approach to this issue. They are not a cheap endeavour at political point scoring.

The problem of the inner city of Dublin is above and beyond any shallow political consideration. No single Government is responsible for this position. Our system of Government and the attitudes which apparently have permeated the minds of all Governments in relation to this problem are responsible. Consideration of this problem is not evident in the Estimate before us.

I want to ask the Minister—and I have no doubt but that I will get a positive response—if he will be good enough in his own time and at his own convenience to come with me for three or four hours and visit parts of the city of Dublin. I want him to take a guided tour, to meet local problems face to face, to meet people who are poor, to see a social environment which is a disgrace. I want the Minister to walk through the streets of parts of this city which in anybody's eyes must be seen to represent nothing less than a scandalous neglect of our Christian duty.

The Minister may say he understands the problem but, if he confronts it face to face, if he talks to the people of the area, if he smells the smells, if he experiences the squalor, if he sees the dirty children playing on street corners, he cannot fail to come away inspired with the desire to change these areas fundamentally. Before I conclude I intend to ask the Minister to indicate to me his willingness to spend a couple of hours in this exercise which I believe would be—and I say this with the greatest respect for the Government— a most enlightening, educational and humiliating experience.

The problems of this part of the city are manifold and complex. Many of them are outside the traditional functions of the Government. They are complicated by the greed of the private sector and the greed of the individual. They are complicated by neglect and by blight not created deliberately by the Government. Nor am I suggesting that there is any conspiracy on the part of this Government or the previous Government who must also shoulder their fair share of responsibility for the position in Dublin city centre. Before I sit down I hope to outline the reasons for this.

By any social criteria it can be shown and proved statistically, emotionally and in every other way, that the people of this part of Dublin city are deprived to a degree which is in conflict with the Constitution. If they took a case, or if an interested group took a case on their behalf, to the High Court or the European Court—and I do not think such a proceeding is outside the bounds of possibility eventually—it could be clearly shown that they have been deprived of their constitutional right to equality of treatment. The phrase, "to cherish all the children of the nation equally" can only be met with a mocking smile when you look at the way we cherish the children of Sean McDermott Street, Lower Gardiner Street, Foley Street, the Monto as it is called, and other areas in that part of the city. They are consistently maltreated. They are born into deprivation. They live in deprivation and their future is grim.

I want to know why the children of my area are not entitled to dream the same dreams as the children of any other nation. I want to know why the children of my area are not entitled to follow the same star as the children of any other area. They have that right and it is the duty of this House to ensure that they get that right. As long as I have breath in my body that will be one of my fundamental concerns. The only star many of them are following is the tail light of a Black Maria, unfortunately. I welcome the increase in the Garda presence. In itself that is a good thing but, unless it is accompanied by enlightened social improvements and radical reforms, it is repressive fundamentally. It endeavours only to contain the problem and the symptoms of the problem. The disease remains. It does not matter how many St. Patrick's Institutions or Loughan Houses you build, you will have to build more because the city will spawn this problem and continue to do so unless we tackle it properly. We are not doing that.

The poverty in inner Dublin and in parts of other urban areas has to be seen and experienced to be believed. Reference to statistics is a good debating point but statistics are cold, and they can never quantify the deprivation or the hunger of people living six or seven to a third floor flat. They cannot deal with the problem of a constituent of mine with ten children in two rooms and no husband, fearful of the prospect of coping with larger accommodation, unable to cope with the children she has, educated to believe she should go forth and multiply regardless of the quality of life for her children. I want to know what this House will do about the future of those children.

Pawn shops are disappearing in parts of the city. The three golden balls, the symbol of poverty in some people's eyes, are no longer as common as they were. The pawn shop is not the baseline of poverty, because the only people who can use a pawn shop are people with something to pawn. The people I am speaking about own nothing and in some cases even the clothes they stand up in have been given to them. I want to ask Members of this House, most of whom representing rural constituencies, how they can justify the fact that people are living on some of our social welfare assistance schemes. Last Saturday morning a number of people came to see me whose only income is less than £15 a week. In one case it was said to be £10.50 per week. In many cases it is not enough to keep body and soul together. It is an open invitation to crime and delinquency and, by any standards, is a scandal.

Most of the matters the Deputy is developing are the concern of another Minister. I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy other than to remind him that——

I accept that. I just want to mention social welfare assistance in passing because it is part of the complex of poverty-creating and poverty-inducing factors.

The Deputy will have other opportunities.

These matters, nevertheless, are fundamental to the deprivation in environmental terms of our city. Perhaps the vertical way in which the Departments are segregated without a regional authority may be part of the problem. On some occasion or other there are few of us who do not say that it is somebody else's problem but the problem and the buck rests here. However, we have not picked it up so far.

Before I leave the theme of poverty I should like to mention a couple of points which are not referred to in the Estimate. After all if poverty is at the root of city deprivation it is a legitimate expectation on my part that an Estimate for the Environment would at least deal in some respect with it. I should like to mention that more than 105,000 children depend completely on dole for their survival. Out of a total of 104,800 signing on the unemployment register in a sample week 16,000 got absolutely nothing. The highest constituency percentage live in north central Dublin. A total of 46,400 receive unemployment assistance of at most £10.70 per week for a single person while a wife and two children get £25 per week. One could go on giving the sad statistics of neglect. The depths of the problem in our inner city have not been plumbed or understood by a fundamentally—I say this with great respect—rurally based assembly which is Dáil Éireann. That is why I reiterate my invitation to the Minister to accompany me on a visit to parts of the inner city of Dublin, if necessary with other Members, so that he can have first-hand experience of some of the problems that exist there.

What is the environment of this area? J. Alan Winter in a book called "The Poor: A Culture of Poverty or Poverty of Culture?" states:

While poverty itself is poorness— a lack of money—we all recognise that poverty is also composed of chronic unemployment and under employment, urban and rural slum environment, little education, broken families and poor physical and mental health.

That is the first difficulty we have with regard to this Estimate. All of these are part of the whole and yet, strictly speaking, we are technically unable to deal with them as one. They are not separate problems, they are part of one major problem, part of a problem which can be epitomised by the fact that we have never treated the inner city of Dublin and possibly other cities as being equal. There is positive discrimination against the inner city of Dublin at many levels of Government and it must be changed.

I should now like to deal with the question of amenities with which this Estimate is in minor part concerned. We are told that £500,000 has been allocated to local authorities for environmental improvement schemes. That is in an Estimate of more than £200 million and that is in the face of the facts that the urban areas have not got equal rights with regard to amenities for children or for the aged. Deprivation in these matters is a fact that cannot be denied. Figures supplied by Dublin Corporation to anybody interested show that in the inner city of Dublin something in the order of 3 per cent of the land is used for recreational and leisure purposes. If one refined that further to see, for example, what we are talking about in terms of playgrounds the figure would be smaller. From 1966 to 1974 there was a net loss of area of ground of almost 5 per cent in respect of leisure and entertainment in the inner city area. To talk about the pittance in this Estimate in respect of environmental improvement is a sham. I am aware that it is twice what was there last year but that was also a sham. How can we expect the children in these areas to grow up to be fulfilled citizens when we do not give them a patch to play on? How can we expect them to be right when they never see a green patch from the day they are born, unless they get out of the city?

The most recent figures issued by Dublin Corporation, which has a statutory responsibility in this area, indicate that of the land used in the inner city area for city central uses generally— there are numbers of acres for different uses including 86 acres for various types of buildings, 41 acres for streets, five acres for off-street car parking—of a total of 169 acres, public open space and playing facilities gets six acres. That land consists mostly of bald patches of rough terrain, the kind of terrain which is called to mind when one reads the work of the author of Strumpet City who spoke about Nicholas Street and the children playing what they used to call “chaneys”, played with pieces of broken delph or glass. Most of the playgrounds that we deign to call public open spaces and playing facilities are such.

I do not wish to ignore the fact that some meagre improvements have taken place and that there have been some legitimate playgrounds opened in recent times. Every one of them has been achieved as a result of strong local pressure and has been ringed by the various Departments or local authorities as a concession. These were provided in an area where children and people are at their densest. I do not know if the Minister knows a great deal about rodents, otherwise called rats. I should like to tell the Minister that some children in my area have rats as their playthings. That is the truth. The Eastern Health Board will tell the Minister that they receive between 4,000 to 5,000 complaints annually about rats in Dublin city. Those complaints come from people who bother to ring up but most do not go to that bother. Those complaints are dealt with by the health board and some improvement is usually effected, but the problem of rats stems from basic sewage matters, the treatment of refuse and debris over the years. Rats will always be associated with the slum conditions which exist in parts of our city. It is not too much to ask that rats, six of which consume the same amount of food daily as a man and who grow and spawn at a rapid rate, should be excluded from the city. We should be able to segregate our children from this disease-carrying pest and give them a better atmosphere in which to play. That has not been done so far and there is nothing in the Estimate to indicate that there is any radical revision of thought about the matter.

Although I am not that long in politics I have learned one lesson. If one wants to get something done which may not necessarily please everybody, it seems to be the ground rule of most politicians, myself included, that it should be done as early in the term as possible so that whatever unpleasant side effects it will have will be forgotten. I had hoped that a radical reforming zeal would have permeated the Government attitude after their massive success in the election and that this would have distilled itself into progressive and radical improvements in various Estimates.

The Estimate for the Department of the Environment does not show that. The most striking thing about it for the Minister, as he says in his first sentence, is not what it is going to do to change the face of our society, not the major challenge facing him in one of the most challenging Ministries in the Government but a matter of figures—"the most striking feature of this Estimate is its sheer size". I suppose the novelty of its size is something that a Minister on the occasion of his first Estimate could take pride and pleasure in but I am somewhat concerned that this may indicate a lack of real understanding of the magnitude of the problem. Perhaps that is not a fair comment but I do not think the most striking feature of the Estimate is its sheer size; its most striking feature is its lack of social oversight and the omissions which therefore relate to it.

I see no reason why the Minister, or the Minister of State to whom I extend my good wishes for success in his job, should feel obliged to look at Estimates of previous years and say: "Let us increase that figure or that by so much." Surely they could say: "Let us scrap the whole lot and let us ask people, public representatives, professionals in the field, our Departments and various other agencies, what is necessary in the context of the Department of the Environment. Let us ask them is there a new way to approach the problems that we have not been tackling in a real way over the years. We have approximately £200 million to spend; let us see what we can do with this money." Why should we be able to spend tens of millions on roads—which I agree with in themselves—and only £.5 million on an area which has been traditionally neglected when the effect of this neglect is costing millions and will cost us more?

The Environment Estimate pays no real attention to the planning of our city. Not 200 yards from the front gate of this building there is a street that is now dead. It is not even possessed by decent ghosts because the old houses that were there are gone. Instead, we have a monolithic canyon, dark and soulless at night and even soulless by day, ugly buildings with no life, no people. I am worried that this is an indication of what the future of our city may hold. That is modern planning; it is not Dickensian neglect, not the kind of blight we have in other areas such as Mountjoy Square: this was conceived under the aegis of the Department of Local Government or the Environment and brought into being in very recent years. What is it? A utilitarian, functional street—which is good in itself—but nothing more and the people who use it live far away.

At the corner of Waterford Street, North Cumberland Street and Lower Gardiner Street, in that area of the city, a person in a third floor flat, into which rain will probably be seeping because the roofs have never been replaced since the flats were built in the last century, can see from the window four massive car parks. I am not against car parks but I do not believe they must be all on the flat; we could bury them underground or, if necessary—although I am not very happy about it—build some sort of multistorey car park. The car parks are not bad in themselves but what is bad is that public representatives for that area had to fight for two-and-a-half years to get a patch of ground measuring about 30 yards square on which to put a few swings for children. Even then the children must cross a busy road to get to it. But there is no problem when it comes to accommodating the car.

What about children sleeping rough in Dublin city? Although estimates differ, is the Minister aware that there are probably about 100 children sleeping "on the sticks" so to speak, in Dublin every night, in the backs of open cars, in buses if they are parked on the street—as often they are—or in CIE garages or in parks, under ledges or elsewhere, living like rodents? The task force referred to this problem in their report and that was the last any of us heard of it. Is the Minister aware that there are old people in the city who pick their living from the dustbins? There are not day care centres in sufficient number to cope with them, give them a little warmth and kindness after a lifetime of work——

The Deputy is moving quite a bit away from the responsibilities of the Minister. The day care centres and so on would be the responsibility of another Minister.

With respect, I do not agree that they would be the responsibility of another Minister. A day care centre is quite regularly provided by the Department's Estimate—the money is allocated by that Department to the local authority. That is the position. I am aware of this because I am on a committee which made a donation only last year.

The Department may make grants to them but as far as I understand responsibility for them lies with another Minister. The Deputy may proceed.

I am trying to make the point that the Department of the Environment is not living up to its name; it changed its title and it does not have environmental responsibility. I am talking of poverty and deprivation in Dublin and, with respect, I believe I am reasonably in order.

These are matters for another Minister, poverty and day care centres and so on. Even if the title of this Department includes Environment it does not cover items such as those.

I wonder what it does cover. These are part of a social problem which the Department of the Environment or some Department should be dealing with and I presume it is the Department of the Environment but that Department is not dealing with it. In the case of children sleeping rough, does the Eastern Health Board not have responsibility and where does the board get its money and its personnel from except from the local authority and the Department of Health?

Actually children sleeping rough would be the responsibility of this Minister only so far as their housing is concerned.

What about the high rise buildings in Ballymun? Can those legitimately be said to be the responsibility of the Department of the Environment?

All buildings are the responsibility of the Department of the Environment.

I do not wish to get involved——

I do not wish to be arguing with the Deputy. I want to give him every possible latitude, but he will understand that Health, Social Welfare and other Departments have a responsibility.

I appreciate you have to do this. It does not help me but I appreciate you are right and I will endeavour to respond as well as I can. I want to point to some of the problems not being tackled by the Government generally and by this Department specifically. I am talking about the kind of thinking that created family accommodation on third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh floors in Ballymun. That building was conceived and built by the Department of Local Government. Part of this problem which the Chair has pointed to in calling me to order is that once that was built nobody seems to have assumed responsibility for the social context in which those families live. That is bad planning, environmental deprivation. How can we expect those children to believe they are being cherished equally when they spend their days, all their days if they are less than a certain age, in two rooms? Mothers cannot let them out because there is no place to put them except down on the ground.

The provision of play facilities and recreational amenities for city children has not been dealt with in the Estimate in any meaningful way. It has never been dealt with properly by Governments and it is not being dealt with now. Just more than one year ago three children in my constituency were killed because their playground was the railway track. Apparently a railway track through a city area does not require any extra protective measures from the point of view of the natural curiosity of children. The children are dead and buried but there has not been any action apart from some temporary soul-searching. There has not been any resolution by anybody to say: "We will learn from this tragedy and we will put proper investment into this part of the city because in the East Wall area and in similar areas it is necessary to pay more attention to our children because if our children are right, if we take care of them, the future will be sound."

I read a book once called Children of the Sun. It is about children in Naples. I was horrified, but the only difference is one of scale—we have fewer “children of the sun”. There is, of course, the other difference that because of our street pattern in many cases our children never see the sun. This tragedy is heightened because around them they see dereliction and blight. They see derelict sites left by speculators watched over by a Government who have not the moral courage to take the kind of action taken in other European countries. Buildings have been closed up to hold together sites for future speculations while old people have no place to meet and young people have no place to play. These buildings should be looked at by the Department of the Environment and if necessary taken over by them after reasonable notice.

In 1975-76 the only action taken with regard to the acres of dereliction in Dublin city was by Dublin Corporation. What did they do? In a period of two years they issued notices under the Derelict Sites Act to 26 site owners. That is the best they could have done because the legislation is not there and this Estimate does not even recognise that this problem exists. We are told that nationally there are about four million acres of derelict land but the Government have not any proposals to ensure that some of the waste ground will be taken over and used. Fallen buildings come into the same category and they are similarly neglected. Everyone knows what happens when a building is closed. It happens also to the buildings adjacent and to the people living in them.

What are we doing about the special interest categories in our cities? Would it be too much to ask this Department, when considering plans and guidelines for building, to take cognisance of the special needs of the blind and the disabled? There is nothing about them in the Estimate but a form of words. In the past 20 years some 400 blind persons have left special schools in Dublin and there are still 300 of them living here. I am not aware of even one public building having been planned or built which shows the slightest sensitivity for the blind or the disabled. On the contrary, meagre efforts on my part in the local authority elicited no response in regard to simple things like street furniture, by which I mean the placement of litter bins, letter boxes, parking meters, lamp standards, bus stops and so forth. There has been no attempt at rationalisation to make it simpler for blind people to walk on the footpaths. It is far easier for each Department to go their own way, forgetting that the separate maintenance of these things is much more costly and expensive. In my naivety I had assumed that it would be logical to put a bus stop sign on a lamp standard with a litter bin below.

I hope the Chair will bear with me for a few moments when I refer to deprivation of facilities for the education of our children. This is the responsibility of the Minister for Education and therefore I will not go into it in great detail, but because the problems caused by educational deprivation fall directly on the Minister for the Environment in terms of children on the streets with no facilities for them, they are a legitimate relevant concern.

I will say only two things about this. I may say in passing that I have admiration for the Minister for Education. I think he wishes to do a good job and that he is determined to do it. He has the support of my party. So far, he has been forthright and helpful, but he said last week he did not believe city children are deprived educationally. I would simply ask him whether he has read the study Educational Opportunity in Dublin by An tAthair Mícheál Mac Gréil——

I am afraid we cannot discuss education. We can discuss buildings for educational purposes and their planning but we certainly cannot discuss education. The Deputy is well aware of this.

I am asking you for a little flexibility. I am trying to make a very serious case, that the problems created by children who do not attend schools and who are therefore on the street are matters which the Minister for the Environment must face up to. There are parts of the city of Dublin where 80 per cent of children leave after national school——

The Minister for the Environment would not have responsibility for children leaving schools.

That is debatable. Is it not reasonable to assume that if children leave school in these numbers in the city something must be done with them? If the Department of the Environment could decide to create study centres for them in the city where they would be able to study under the guidance of teachers and/or parents in an atmosphere which would not be such as apparently made them fall out of school, or if there could be some centre, hall or even a room to which they could go during the day, that would be a reasonable environmental concern and I defy contradiction on it.

Educational matters are the responsibility of the Minister for Education. The question of school buildings as far as their planning is concerned would be a matter for the Minister for the Environment.

Then the planning of the schools in the broadest sense of the word "planning" has led to a situation where, as Miss Joy Rudd in a study called A Survey of National School Terminal Leavers says, 15 per cent of all the children leaving national schools did not transfer to post-primary schools and this percentage was at its worst in Dublin city. The national schools were concentrated in certain areas of the cities, particularly Dublin. When we ask about schools and the possibility of their closing we are told that the private sector is responsible. I ask the Minister for the Environment with regard to the future planning of the schools—which in fairness he has promised to build in areas where they are closed—that he would consider this extraordinarily high drop-out rate. Well over half our children leave at the age of 12 years when they are even legally obliged to be there until they are 15. That is a serious environmental problem and we have to come to grips with it. It is not recognised in the Estimate.

It certainly does not come under this Estimate. It is a matter for the Minister for Education and the Deputy can raise it on that Estimate.

He will tell me that his responsibility is for the provision of places and that he does not have any responsibility when they leave the place.

He certainly has responsibility for the age at which pupils leave school and all that sort of thing would be his responsibility as Minister for Education. The Minister for the Environment has certainly no responsibility for leaving ages and education generally.

I have made my point. I want to ask the Minister of State who is standing in today to consider the points I am putting forward. I am not trying to make political capital of them. If we on this side of the House can help in having a joint approach to some of these problems my colleagues and I will do our best in that regard. This is one of the most serious national challenges facing us and I want to put it in the strongest terms possible. I am making a special plea to him to get the best from all possible resources. The inner city of Dublin will not be made a political issue by this side of the House. We will not put at risk the future of the environment of that part of the city and I have no doubt that the Minister is similarly disposed. I say with the greatest respect, as these are early days yet for the Government, that the Estimate as put before us, apart from the redemption of the rates pledge which had to be done, is little more than the same Estimate as we had last year with a little more and in some cases a little less. That is not the reforming zeal that we were promised or that I expected. I am a Dublin person and I have pride in the city of Dublin and it is to the Department of the Environment that I look for hope in the future. Yeats in one of his poems talks in a different context about Maude Gonne and he said she might be responsible for "hurling the little streets upon the great". It is a good phrase because it can be applied in a way to the inner city of Dublin. The little streets are hurled upon the great in every sense of the word and the result is an urban shambles. As Louis McNeice put it, there was at one stage a sort of seedy elegance about the city. He said about Dublin:

Grey brick upon brick,

Declamatory bronze

On sombre pedestals.

The lines most relevant to Dublin are perhaps:

And the bare bones of a fanlight

Over a hungry door.

There are many bare bones of many fanlights and many hungry doors, and there is no hope in sight at the moment that we will tackle this major problem in a fundamental way. I am one of a number of people who feel strongly that we should all be able to be proud of our capital city and that the Department of the Environment could provide a pioneering role and a great lead in that regard.

But yet she holds my mind

With her seedy elegance,

With her gentle veils of rain

And all her ghosts that walk

And all that hide behind

Her Georgian facade.

Since the time of Louis McNeice, Behan and all the other people who walked the streets of Dublin when it had a quality of life which though financially poor was environmentally perhaps richer than we have now, there have been decay, degeneration and blight. The financial improvement over the decades, which all but a fool must welcome, has meant that those who could escape got out and are getting out and indeed we encourage them. The Department of the Environment give a £1,000 grant for new house first-time purchasers. I would argue and can produce documentary evidence—not that it matters a damn at this stage—that that was not what was promised. What was promised was a £1,000 grant to first-time purchasers of houses. I though that was good because it was treating everybody fairly. I have here a case study of an urban community and it makes interesting reading about the fight for survival of a community.

A small house in East Wall which could be sold for £7,000, £8,000 or £9,000 and would put a family on its feet is no longer attractive. It does not qualify for the grant. The young couple now are encouraged for the sake of that £1,000—a lot of money if you are trying to put it together—to leave the city and go out into the suburbs to occupy one of the houses that extraordinarily are able to be sold for something in the region of £10,000 when the local authority must build at a minimum of £15,000 per unit. Some people wonder—I do not have to— how these houses can be sold cheaper than local authority houses despite the fact that they are being built primarily for profit. These are the estates into which the young couples are moving with their one child or two children. The husband is at work all day, taking an hour to get there—usually back into the city if he has a job—and an hour to get back. The wife is on her own with the child, which is a new experience to her, and as a young married man myself I can honestly say that is one of the most traumatic experiences that one can possibly endure, and I am not being even slightly facetious about it. What has this young woman to turn to?

We would be told that the Department of the Environment do not have responsibility for providing schools, shops, social facilities, churches, creches for the children or community centres. They have responsibility for some of those but they do not carry it out. There is no street lighting. The streets are not even cleaned. This is because they are not taken in charge. The private developer has not finished off the estate because the planning department have not concluded their part and so it goes on and on. In order to redress this imbalance which will not really manifest itself for another year or so the Minister should make the £1,000 grant available to all first-time purchasers.

I believe this is what was propagated before the election not only as an election pledge but because it was socially wise and just. Not only would this help young couples but it would help also the building industry which was the main thrust of the grant. To make the grant available to all first-time purchasers would create housing mobility in the city because a couple who wished to sell their house at, say, the East Wall or Ballybough for £9,000 or £10,000 would be able to sell it on equal terms and to buy a house elsewhere. There are thousands of families on the housing list who are living in squalor. The Department are indicating in the Estimate and the Government are indicating generally in the White Paper that there is an acceptable level of housing deprivation. Having regard to the number of people who are living in squalor I would ask the Minister to reconsider the question of the £1,000 grant. It has serious implications. Both politically and in the interest of housing generally it would be an advantage to make the grant available to all first-time purchasers.

There is a need for major roads. The Government are hellbent on approving proposals for major roads in the Dublin area that would cost in the order of £500 million at current prices. I do not know whether that development is good but Dublin Corporation, perhaps reflecting their concern, have spent almost £300,000 in the past few years in having studies undertaken into the question of roads but there have been no studies in regard to the social impact of these roads. Once again it is a question of hurling the little streets upon the great. Housing requirements in the Dublin sub-region show that there is a real housing problem but some solace is being derived by the Minister by his implying that the larger families are being housed. That is a misconception because families are smaller now although there are notable exceptions.

The question of motorways should be seen in the context of population and in terms of a national transportation policy. I ask the Minister to consider the impact of road proposals on local communities. I am not advocating an end to road development works because we need roads but we must ensure that there is sensitivity in respect of a city which traditionally has been deprived since it was regarded by the rest of the country as being part of the Pale. The Minister for Health told us recently that even in terms of health the people of this city are relatively deprived.

The question of jobs is fundamental but that is the responsibility of another Minister. However, the social consequences involved will rest with the Minister for the Environment. What is becoming known as the fourth world, that is, the world of the inner city, is a world that is far from bright and this Estimate does little to help.

I am not happy that legislation is being prepared to provide for toll bridges. There has been no request for such legislation, so it is difficult to understand why the Government should be acting in this way when there are so many pressing problems facing them, for example, the problem of crime in the city. A recent report of the Garda Commissioner showed that Dublin is the real problem in this context and that this city's crime rate is relatively way beyond the rate for other areas. Does this mean that Dublin people are more crime-orientated? It does not but their environment is crime-conducive. There is nothing in the Minister's Estimate about that.

He has no responsibility for it.

But he should have. I have tried to make that point before but was ruled out of order, too.

The appropriate forum for that would be the Estimate for the Department of Justice.

Although there is the risk of a self-fulfilling prophesy, as the sociologists call it, I do not believe that talking of these problems makes them any worse. The prophesy is being fulfilled. To play games with the problem or to remain quiet about it will not make it go away. It disturbs me to talk about such matters but it is necessary to focus the attention of the Government on the real problem.

I would go further and express the hope that the Minister for the Environment would consider setting up a regional authority for Dublin city which would have real teeth and which would allow other Ministers to have the kind of responsibility which the Chair understandably indicates is not the responsibility of the Minister for the Environment. That might be one way of tackling the situation. What is needed is a frontal assault. Government structure is ill-equipped to deal with a problem which is ingrained horizontally in a variety of social areas by a structure which is delineated vertically in a situation in which there are various Departments each dealing with separate areas of responsibility, one not knowing what the other one is doing except in a cursory way while there is no meaningful inter-relationship between Departments.

Instead of talking of the reorganisation of local government we hear about the building of centres for children. I suppose Dublin will have the highest percentage of the children involved although the centre is being provided far from the city.

I want to make a plea finally in regard to the Royal Canal. There is talk of a motorway being built on that waterway but I appeal to the Minister not to allow any such obscenity. The waterways can be a wonderful amenity and if the Minister declines to go ahead with the motorway he will be doing something to redress the balance particularly in so far as the north city area is concerned.

I wonder whether the Minister has considered my invitation to come with me and perhaps with other public representatives on a short visit to the inner city area where he would meet the people and see the problem for himself. I am not suggesting that in any way the Minister lacks knowledge of the area but I would like him as a human being and as a Christian to see at first hand what the difficulties are.

I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Mr. Leonard

At the outset I compliment both the Minister and the Minister of State for the work they have done since taking office. Perhaps it was unintentional but the previous speaker complimented them, too. I suppose, when he read the Estimate speech he felt there was so little to be critical of that he spent most of his speech far from the Estimate but, in fairness to him he came back to it in the last few minutes. I suppose that is a tribute to the benefits in the Estimate.

This is an appropriate time to comment on the abolition of rates on private dwellings. There is a provision of £80 million to compensate local authorities for the loss of revenue from the abolition of rates on private dwellings. When Fianna Fáil announced the abolition of rates on private dwellings the parties opposite told the country that this was impossible and that it was only a trap for the unwary voter. The promise has been kept and the allowance in the Estimate before the House is proof that the people believed that Fianna Fáil would deliver. The Government have kept faith. The derating of private dwellings, which affects 850,000 house-holders, shows that this was a well chosen move.

The Minister told us that even with the phasing out of the two largest revenues, health and housing, rates had increased from £6.70 to £9. This gives an indication of the amount of money required. My county, in particular, have suffered this year because 1977 will be the base year in regard to the funding of local authorities from State funds. Monaghan County Council did not allow sufficiently for the rate of inflation in regard to roads. The result is that we found recently that we have come out very badly. Would the Minister re-examine this point? County Monaghan over the years made a sizeable contribution in the rate in the £ towards roads but, due to some error, they did not take cognisance of the inflationary rate and they now find that they can suffer in years to come.

The Minister referred to the abolition of rates on community halls. He also indicated that he will be bringing in legislation and drawing up guidelines for community halls. I suggest that in rural areas all halls be exempted. The community hall is comparatively an innovation and is a very desirable one because it means that the people of all shades of religious and political opinions have come together and erected in some cases very elaborate community centres with a wide range of facilities which are very necessary in rural areas. They got grant aid from local authorities for doing this. Those buildings are now known as community halls.

County Monaghan a few years ago sent a resolution to the then Minister for Local Government that all halls be derated. In our county we have approximately 80 halls under three categories, community centres, parochial halls and Orange halls. The total revenue which Monaghan County Council were collecting in respect of rates on those buildings was a little over £2,000. While some of them were paying a large amount in rates very many of them, due to not being used, received exemption of rates. The reply we received from the then Minister was that the derating of those halls was a matter for the Valuation Office. Now that this legislation is being introduced to exempt community halls from rates I believe it is an appropriate time for the Minister to exempt all halls except those which are for commercial use, which are usually situated in the towns.

Commercial dance halls in rural areas are not a paying proposition. The halls are used primarily for meetings, first-aid classes, sporting organisations, the ICA and the IFA. The VEC hold classes in woodwork, needlework and cookery in those halls. Some of those halls have a wide range of sporting facilities for the people. Most of them receive no revenue from admission to their functions to compensate for the payments they have to make to the local authorities for rates. I ask the Minister, now that this legislation will be coming before the House, to examine this matter very closely and exempt all halls.

The Minister referred to compensation for malicious injuries. In most counties this only accounts for a few pence in the £. In County Monaghan, because of our situation, this accounted for 20p in the £, which is a sizeable amount. This increase was not caused by an increase in vandalism or malicious injuries. While the State recoup the local authority for any damage caused by explosions which are attributable to events in Northern Ireland, road cratering and so forth, there is no money given for the expense involved in processing those cases through the courts. The local authority have to pay the solicitor, the quantity surveyor and other people in assessing the claims. They have to pay the Garda authorities for statements in relation to the claims. Monaghan County Council have been pressing for a number of years that we should be able to recoup those expenses.

There is a fairly low valuation in County Monaghan and there are no rates on lands with a valuation under £20. Now, with the abolition of rates on domestic dwellings and outbuildings, the total rate in the £ which will be demanded from people will be for malicious injuries, which is a separate amount indicated on the bottom of the demand note. The Minister will have to consider whether he should continue to collect that money when the collection costs will probably out-weigh the amount of money involved. In Monaghan a few years ago the collection rate for malicious injuries was only 3p in the pound but with the cratering of roads and bomb damage in the towns the rate has increased to 20p in the pound. The people in that area should not be saddled with that. The conflict in the North has brought death and destruction to many innocent families and to businesses in that area. At a time when there has been a fall-off in the bombings and violence it is very disturbing to hear public statements by people like Mr. Mason, the Northern Secretary of State, which are calculated to incite revenge action against innocent people.

I am afraid the Deputy is getting away from the point.

Mr. Leonard

The Secretary of State makes such statements to relieve criticism in the North. It seems to be popular to paint false pictures of the circumstances in the areas close to the Border. A judge last week forbade a person who had appeared before him from crossing the Border because he would associate with terriorists in a certain area south of the Border.

I accept that, Deputy, but it has nothing to do with this Estimate. The point the Deputy made about the malicious injuries claim was in order but the Deputy has extended it very much.

Mr. Leonard

The previous Deputy suggested that the £1,000 grant should extend to all dwellings irrespective of the condition of them and mentioned that this would improve the building industry and create jobs. It is hard to see the sense of his argument. The £1,000 grant introduced by this Government shows the different approach of Fianna Fáil and the National Coalition to people building their own houses. The amount of aid to be given was increased from £4.52 million in 1977 to £17 million this year for private house building. Over the last number of years because of the low income limits and the small size of the grants it was very hard for a person to buy his own house. The new £1,000 grant as well as the change in the income limits make it possible. It is very satisfying that from July 1977 until February 1978 there was a total of 9,551 applicants for the new grant. The indications are that more people will build their own houses and this is very commendable.

The Minister in his brief dealt with housing cost variations. There is cause for concern in that local authority houses cost from £9,000 to £12,500. The percentage of variation here should be examined closely. Local authorities should consider having some of the houses built by sub-contractors so that an element of competition could be created.

The Minister also referred to the itinerant problem. In County Monaghan the local authority aided by the Department built tigíns and community centres for itinerants. In one case they were not occupied and the local authority in consultation with the Department decided to dispose of them. It is really a pity that this should have happened as this had seemed an ideal set-up. It was said that because the settlement was too close to the Border the itinerants had a habit of changing residence in order to vary their social welfare benefits and so on. The Government should examine this problem and see what can be done.

Reconstruction grants were also referred to. The Minister is to be congratulated on raising the maximum grant from £400 to £600. The Minister is also to be congratulated on doing away with the supplementary and paying the full grant from the Department. It was very frustrating over the last number of years where this supplementary grant was changed so often. In January 1976 one had to qualify for a supplementary payment before one could qualify for the local government payment. Many applicants had to get two different sets of income figures from their employers because the local authority asked for a figure for one period and the Department of Local Government asked for a figure for a different period. Apart from that, when the applicant looked for a loan application he had to secure another set of figures. The Minister is to be congratulated on that. Also very desirable is the reduction in the time limit within which one will be eligible for reconstruction grant aid which is to be ten years now. Heretofore it was 15 years. Nowadays when so many people are building additional and improving their existing accommodation the reduction in this time limit is to be commended.

A previous speaker was critical of the attention being paid to the disabled and mentally handicapped. The Department and the various health boards are now devoting a lot of time and thought to these people. It is indeed desirable that they receive all of the facilities it is possible to provide. The increase in the maximum grant to £1,200 will mean that it will now be possible for many mentally handicapped and disabled people to have provided for them bedroom and bath-room accommodation at ground floor level because many of them are unable to negotiate stairways. The increase in the grant will go a long way towards the provision of that type of facility.

The Minister mentioned also that there would be a more strict control on standardised building components. The Department should also monitor very closely and have strict control over material prices. I would hope also that all architects and consulting engineers involved in projects—especially Departmental ones—would be aware of the variety of products manufactured at home. A few years ago, in the building of an Army barracks in Monaghan, we had the experience of consultants and engineers who recommended the use of imported tiles when there were tiles of equal quality being manufactured a matter of 13 miles away. It was unfortunate that such men, commissioned to undertake the erection of that building, were not aware that they could get the same product in that area.

In no sector has there been as favourable a reaction to a change of government as in the building industry. In this House for years there was a battle of figures over the number of houses built, the number of grants applied for and so on but the stark fact was that there was increasing unemployment in that industry. The numerous actions taken by the Minister since he assumed office should help to shrink the unemployment queues. While the days of picture postcards depicting crumbling mud walls and cabins in the country have disappeared and while there has been a tremendous improvement in housing it will be a long time still before any Minister can boast that he has overcome the housing problem. Mention was made earlier of city housing conditions but, bearing in mind an ever-increasing population, whether it be city or country, it will be a long time before the housing situation is rectified. Nowadays with people marrying at a younger age local authorities find that there is an ever-increasing demand for housing and indeed for the better type of accommodation to which our people are entitled.

Mention was made earlier also of neglect of the old. Many local authorities are to be commended for the attention they are giving to the building of houses for old people. In four of the five major towns of the county I represent there are schemes in progress—some of the houses being occupied already—for the provision of old people's dwellings. In a number of cases there is being provided also a community centre to serve them where they can go for attention by a district nurse, doctor or some other qualified person. Local authorities should pursue this line— the provision of a number of houses in a group of houses for old people, affording them the type of freedom they would not have in an institution. The figures at present available to us of people in such institutions is so high that local authorities must actively pursue the building of such houses for old people.

The Minister mentioned the matter of apprentices and the money he was making available for their training. Certainly he is to be commended for arranging that grants be made available to local authorities for the employment of 150 first-year construction industry apprentices, because the shortage of trade apprentices has been very evident in recent times. Local authorities could do much to train apprentices because at present there are many local authorities and health boards with a fairly extensive variety of tradesmen. Traditionally local authorities used tradesmen who had served their apprenticeship in other industries; such local authorities took these men but gave nothing in return. Therefore I feel there should be a greater input of apprentices to local authorities particularly where there is a trade involved.

Under the heading of road works I noticed that the Minister has made an allocation of a fairly substantial amount of money to the Derry/Donegal region for cross-Border development. If I might quote what the Minister said in this regard:

The grants I have made to Donegal County Council include allocations totalling £290,000 for six projects in North Donegal. These projects form part of the programme for the improvement of the national route network in that area and have been confirmed in the report of the Study of Cross-Border Communications in the Derry/Donegal region, which was commissioned and financed jointly by the Government, the United Kingdom Government and the EEC.

As one who has been involved in this cross-Border development and discussions, I welcome this allocation to these national secondary routes. It is an indication that the Government and the Minister honour the commitment they made of involvement in projects of benefit to all sectors on both sides of the Border.

The Minister should get his engineers to have another look at the classification of roads. In Monaghan we have come up against a problem where over the last number of years it was not safe to traverse certain roads with the result that other routes had to be taken and these routes were never reclassified even though they were compelled to carry an increased volume of traffic. In some areas there was no allocation made for the realignment of national secondary and primary roads because of restriction on finance. I would ask the Minister to concentrate now on national primary roads because these are the main arteries. From Derry to Dublin there is approximately 160 miles of road and the distance from the Border at Aughnacloy to Glasnevin is approximately 95 miles. About 35 miles of that road are in a most unsuitable condition for the kind of traffic using it. Last year about a mile of road was done but for quite a number of years before that nothing was done. More finance will have to be allocated for the improvement of these roads. There must be a re-examination and a reclassification of them. The Minister's inspectors should check on surfacing. There is a stretch of road north of Collon which has had a temporary surface for the last three or four years. In other parts of the county roads have been permanently surfaced.

Following on the closure of the railways there was an additional allocation made to counties to compensate for the loss of the railways. This allocation was of a temporary nature. The subvention given to CIE represents roughly £10 per head of the population. In 1957-58 there was a complete withdrawal of rail services from Cavan and Donegal. A bus service was made available. This service just about fills the bill and no more. Counties which no longer have rail facilities for both passengers and freight should be given more money. Remember, they are paying their contribution per head of the population to the subvention to the rail system, a system which is of no benefit of any kind to them.

When the planning committee was set up we were hopeful that there would be no more delays. Apparently now the committee has a large number of appeals, just as many as the Minister had prior to the committee being set up. These appeals have to be vetted very, very carefully. Many aspects have to be considered. Local authorities have to be consulted and so on. An application sent in in September has still not been decided. Delay like this is very serious from the point of view of industrial development or large-scale housing construction. Such developments ought not to be held up and I would appeal to the Minister to do all he can to speed up decisions.

Where the local improvement scheme is concerned I welcome the increased allocation from £1 million to £1.75 million. There are almost 6,500 applications. I would appeal to the Minister to provide all the money necessary to cope with the backlog of applications because there are people who cannot develop their farms since they are unable to bring in limestone, fertilisers, ready-mixed concrete and so on. In some cases they cannot avail of bulk milk collection which is the in-thing now.

First of all, I wish the Minister and his Department well. I am not happy about the change of name. There was strong pressure for a Department of the Environment but changing the name of the Department of Local Government was not the answer. I regard it as a rather stupid decision because by far the greater part of the activities of the Department are concerned with local government and not with the environment. There was really no point in the change except that it was the in-thing. People were talking about the environment and it was decided that this was what they would do.

I am sure the Minister is—as I was when I was in charge of the Department—very anxious to see the right thing is done in every case. He is lucky because I believe he has the finest group of public servants in his Department that it is possible to get. I found them so. Those men and women know their job and do it well. They make recommendations but carry out the instructions given by the Minister. I hope the Minister will give those instructions to his Department and not leave them in the air as some of his predecessors did. This excellent group of people will give him the best possible instructions and he will carry out the job as it should be done.

Many people seem to think that a Minister has the full right to do what he wants in his own Department, but that is not so, because he is subject to overall Cabinet decision. In many cases we found we could not do things we would like to have done. Often the Department of Finance ensured they could not be done because the money was not there. I do not want to criticise civil servants here because I have never done that. In many cases either the advice given to me from the Department of Finance was wrong or the advice given to the Government was wrong. If money could not be made available for certain things then and it can be turned up now, there is a grey area there which I would like to be able to probe. Possibly I may get the opportunity to do so later.

This debate has followed the traditional lines with Deputies dealing with their own areas, and that is only right. I believe that overall we must look at the way the Department propose to carry out their jobs in the year ahead. One of the things I am rather surprised about is the question of roadmaking. It is remarkable not so much what some Deputies know about roads but what they do not know about them. I have heard Deputies here and I have read reports of their speeches. They seem to have set ideas.

I should like to put a few facts straight. For many years now the building and maintenance of national primary roads was carried by the Department, and that continues. When I took over I found the building of national secondary roads was also carried by the Department but their maintenance was not. I thought this was wrong and, with the agreement of the Government, introduced the system that the upkeep of national secondary roads would also be carried by the Department, and that is so still. In addition, as I had been a member of a local authority for 15 years, I found complaints again and again being made that while work was done where the Department decided it should be done the local authority representatives did not carry out work they felt should be done because they did not have adequate money unless they got it from the rates. In order to meet that legitimate demand I made arrangements that there would be a block grant so that local authorities could decide where best that money could be spent.

I was interested to hear the last Deputy talking about a certain section of a road not being surfaced for a long time. If the local authority felt it was very important it could have been done under the block grant, but obviously it was not that important to them. Local authority representatives are excellent, dedicated people who carry out their job well. I believe they should be given more authority, and that was one of the things I passed on to them. I would hate to think that that system would be changed and that this would not be done in the future.

Nobody believes as much as I do that we need a first-class national road network—national primary, national secondary and the ordinary county roads. I also believe the money must be made available from the State for this. There is no point in the Minister or any other member of the Government standing up at a function or in this House talking about it being their idea that there should be roads built to motorway standards any place, that there should be ring roads or any other type of road done in a big way if the State is not going to put its money where its mouth is. You cannot carry out work unless money is available and it is the State's responsibility to supply it.

There is a national outcry to have in Dublin and other cities a road which will bring people around the city, not through it. I think that is a necessity, but I want to make it as clear as I possibly can that as long as I am in public life I will oppose any proposal that a motorway or any type of major or minor road should be run through a city or town knocking down buildings, not alone the buildings for the area over which the road will run but making it uninhabitable for a distance of 100 yards each side of the road. This is the sort of nonsense which has been talked about as being acceptable by those who propose to use it. People living in the area where the road will be built have rights and their rights are paramount. They must decide whether they are prepared to allow this disruption to occur. I am sure the elected representatives of this city and elsewhere will not be prepared to agree that this sort of thing should be done just to oblige some people. As I said, there should be ring roads. We made great progress building roads around the city and around County Dublin and other areas but an immense amount of money was required.

It would be great to have motorways, but do not forget that they cost a very great deal of money. As I said 12 months ago, we are talking about the next century, and unless a miracle occurs that type of money will not be available here before then. It is wrong that anybody at a public function should be tempted to give the impression that planning which would cost a great deal of money should take place and that it would be done next year or the year after. It will not be done that soon and the sooner such people face up to that fact, as I faced up to it, the better for everybody concerned.

There is also the question of bridges. As I pointed out in the budget, over the years not enough bridges were built. Over the last four or five years a big number of badly needed bridges were built over main roads and around towns. I want to refer specifically to the bridge built at the back of the Custom House. This is an excellent bridge. I use it every morning. It has done a tremendous amount to relieve the bottleneck of traffic there. I was surprised at two things. First, some people claimed it would increase the volume of traffic going across that bridge. They seemed to ignore the fact that until it was opened they had to go down to Butt Bridge, cross it in one lane, turn left and go back through the same streets, therefore creating the same problem, only it took longer. Second, I was surprised to read a sermon in which the clergyman talked about the authorities putting bridges before houses. That bridge was badly needed. Dublin Corporation—I assume he was talking about Dublin Corporation—were unable to spend last year and the year before over £1 million in each year which I had allocated to them for housing the people he was talking about, and it was returned through the national Exchequer. Let us put things in their proper perspective. I am sure that man is dedicated to his own cause and I am not challenging his right to make comments, but they should be relevant and a correct statement of the facts. That is the situation.

With Deputy Keating, I would appeal to the Minister not to change the system with regard to East Wall and Dublin city centre. Having read some of the documentation produced by the whizz kids of the present Government I feel that a climate of opinion is being built up to the effect that it is too expensive to house Dublin people in Dublin. I am not prepared to agree with that. For the first time in years I persuaded Dublin Corporation to ensure that the city centre would be rebuilt and I give them all credit. All shades of opinion within the corporation, including Deputy O'Brien who is now present, were prepared to do their bit. A CPO which was turned down by a Fianna Fáil Minister in 1968 was reactivated and I signed it in order to allow houses to be built in East Wall. The money was provided and it was spent, except for the £1 million in each year to which I referred. Plans are being made and this year, next year and the following year the housing schemes will be going ahead. I appeal to the Minister not to stop them now, no matter what his colleagues may say; otherwise his name will be linked with the desecration and knocking down of Dublin city centre. It is now being rehabilitated and it would be a mistake if a decision were made to reverse that. Some say it is better to move out to virgin country on the edge of the city but they seem to forget that services which are at present provided in the city centre will have to be provided out there also. I appeal to the Minister not to fall into that trap. The job has been started; let him keep it going until it is completed.

I also appeal to the Minister not to be tempted into allowing the super office style building which many people would like to see. This is an area where people should live. While factories may be needed within these areas, he should not move from that stance. He should ensure the continuation of the job which was well started by the previous Government and by Dublin Corporation.

Turning to the question of roads, I wish to refer to the increase in grants. I can only talk about places such as my own constituency. There is an increase of 2 per cent this year and this represents a decrease in actual money over the same period last year. In addition, VAT will be charged for the first time on roads. This is a circular type of taxation. The money is collected and goes back into the Government coffers. Why did the Department not take this into account when they were allocating the money? There is no point in giving money to local authorities with one hand and taking it back with the other. As a result of the combination of the reduction in money value and the imposition of VAT, Meath County Council will find themselves over £200,000 poorer than last year in regard to money for roads. If this applies generally, as I assume it does, it is very wrong. Naturally the Department will be to blame. The Government and the Department of Finance must have known this and they should give back this money. The alternative is a lay-off of road workers all over the country.

I was listening to the previous speaker talking about planning. I will again say something which I said when I was on the other side of the House. The biggest hold-up in planning is caused by the local authorities who do not treat any application as urgent. They deal with it in their own good time. If they refuse a planning application or if someone objects, they are not in any great hurry in supplying the information for which they are asked. These are two reasons for the holding up of planning. The third reason is not that the people running An Bord Pleanála are not doing their job but that there are not enough inspectors. Something will have to be done to clear the backlog.

Local authorities now are far more lenient with regard to planning applications than they were when I took office. However, we still see reports of people who have been refused planning permission in order to build a house where they want to build it. I am thinking particularly of a person in the country. On the radio this morning someone referred to a site in Dublin costing £20,000 and in my own area a site was sold recently for £8,000. If someone buys a site at a reasonable cost, why should he not be encouraged to build a house? This encouragement is not being given. The Minister should ask local authorities to continue the liberal method of dealing with planning applications. I am quite sure that An Bord Pleanála are doing a good job but the Minister should see to it that there are enough inspectors. That is where the bottleneck occurs.

I was listening to the Deputy from Monaghan talking about the extra traffic on the roads as a result of the loss of the railways. He seems to have forgotten that it was a Fianna Fáil Government who were responsible for doing away with those railways and, secondly, that the allocation of money did not include certain areas to which he referred. They got nothing at all. He probably did not look up his notes too well because the job to which he referred would have been done then if the money had been provided.

I have very strong views on the question of water and sewerage. We talk about the necessity for a clean environment but I do not believe it is possible for any country to have a clean environment unless there are adequate water and sewerage facilities. Money must be made available by the State. From the earliest days of this State water and sewerage were not considered very important. A certain amount of money was made available but even in my time it was not entirely adequate. In view of the present situation, the money available this year is even more inadequate. Apart from developing areas, to which most of the money seems to be going, there are many towns and villages with very poor water and sewerage systems, if any. Possibly there was a water scheme of some kind and a sewerage system which may have been introduced about 100 years ago. All those people are now looking for new sewerage schemes. I set up a board to do something about clean water. Nobody can do anything as long as we have a situation where housing effluent and industrial effluent is allowed to flow freely into lakes and rivers. I did what I could in my time but I am quite sure that what I did was inadequate. The local authorities did their best with the amount of money that was available. We will have to have a tremendous breakthrough. During the four years I was in office more money was provided and more work was done than in the previous ten years but it still was not enough. The major problem was still there. I am not criticising the Minister or his Department for this. All I am saying is that they and the Government will have to make an effort to get more money for this type of work. If we are serious about a clean environment we must start with adequate water supplies and sewerage schemes.

There was an impossible situation in this city. Everybody knew about it and plans were made but that was all. Nobody wanted to touch the hot potato. Work was started and it proceeded slowly for a time and in the time I was in office a large amount of money was provided. As a matter of fact, it was said to me on a number of occasions that more money was given to Dublin Corporation than should have been given to any one area. That money was provided in an effort to clear the backlog. When work on the sewerage system is completed in about a year's time there will be considerable improvement but it is unfair that so much money should have to be given to one area to the detriment of others.

The same situation applies with regard to housing. When I was in office I allocated to Dublin Corporation in particular more than 40 per cent of the entire amount of money available for local authority housing in an effort to break the backlog. I was interested to hear Deputy Keating talk about the terrible conditions under which people are living. This is true but the conditions are nothing like what they were some years ago. One point that people seem to ignore is that while those in very bad housing conditions require housing, there is also a desire for an improvement in the standard of housing. Some 15 years ago people would have been prepared to accept a certain kind of housing accommodation but they will not be prepared to accept it now and I think they are right.

I am a little disturbed at a report that appeared in one of the Government publications that suggested that because of the extra effort that we made in the past few years—we did make that effort and there is credit due to officials in the Department, in the local authorities and the public representatives—we have now reached the stage where 70 per cent of those seeking accommodation from the local authorities are people who have only three in a family. If this is suggesting that a man with a wife and child are not entitled to a house, that they must sweat it out in whatever bad accommodation they have until they have three, four or five children, that is not acceptable in 1978. If the Minister allows this to be accepted by his Department as the norm he is making a very big mistake. Every family is entitled to a house. My view is that we should aim at a situation where young people who are getting married and who are unable to provide a house for themselves should be able to get a house 12 months after they are married. This can be done. The system we had up to now did not go that far but it was aiming at it. I hope we do not go back to the situation where people had to wait seven years before they got a house. The Taoiseach admitted to me that it was not unusual to be seven years on a local authority waiting list for housing. It would be very wrong to revert to that system.

I was glad to hear the Minister saying that the standard of housing was good. I assume he means he will keep it that way. There will be a terrific outcry if an effort is made to go back to the bad old days when houses were built that were not fit for human habitation. New houses were handed over to local authorities that were leaking and draughty and that had no heating. Anything that could be wrong with them was wrong with them. I know enough about them from my first few months as Minister when I had the unhappy experience of having officially to open some of them and when people were less than three months in the houses they had a long list of complaints. I hope that situation will not arise again. It can be prevented only by keeping up the excellent standard set by the previous administration with the assistance of the officials concerned.

I am glad that agreement has been reached with tenants' organisations regarding rents and a purchase scheme. However, I am doubtful about the purchase scheme. We tend to get an indistinct picture when something is seen in print because there are a few ways of reading what is set out. The houses built recently, although they are excellent, have repayments that are far too high for people on average earnings. The plan to increase the sum of £900 to £1,300 is not the answer. An effort should be made to ensure that these people can purchase their houses because once they do this they are no longer the responsibility of the local authority or the State. They should be able to buy out their houses at a reasonable cost. If this is not done the houses will not be purchased. Eventually they will require repair and far more money will be spent in this way than on what would have to be given by way of grant or remission of the purchase price. I would ask the Minister to have another look at that scheme.

Before I left office I gave a remission to those people who had purchased under the Fianna Fáil pre-1973 scheme. I understood from some of the statements made in this House after the election that Fianna Fáil held that somebody who paid cash for a house would not be entitled to get a refund. I raised the matter here on the budget debate—the Chair was rather doubtful that it was relevant— and I pointed out that the Minister had stated categorically that it was not the intention of the Government to do anything about it and had stated in reply to a question from a Fine Gael Deputy that the election manifesto issued in Dublin South-West which promised that this would be done was not his responsibility or that of his party. I also produced a document here which said that the Taoiseach had stated in Cork that a remission would be given and, lo and behold, a notice appeared in the newspapers the week before last that a remission was being given. The Taoiseach had got his lines clear and the fact that the statement of the Minister for the Environment was untrue and that he made rather a fool of himself does not seem to have entered anybody's head. That was all right as long as the Taoiseach's lines were kept clear. Nobody seemed to see the point that he was admitting that Fianna Fáil robbed those people. That is what we held all along and that is why I changed the purchase system. I believed that the system in operation from 1968 to 1973 meant than an extraordinary exorbitant price was being charged for the houses. I changed that system for the period for which I was responsible but I felt I could not go back any further except in respect of those people who were purchasing their houses by instalments.

I was amazed to find that Fianna Fáil decided they would do something about it and, having done it, they attempted to claim they were redressing something we had done. It was nothing of the sort. It was a reawakening of the Fianna Fáil conscience to the fact that they had robbed people. They should have another look in the cupboard and I am sure they will find many people who were charged exorbitant rents over the period. They should see whether they could refund some of the rents they charged. Before I took office I found people who were unable to pay for food or clothing for their children because of the high rent they had to pay. Fianna Fáil might have another look at this now that they have time. Perhaps they will do something about it also.

On the question of housing generally, I am of the opinion that a great start was made. We built 100,000 houses in four years with the co-operation of everybody concerned. It always riled me that successive Fianna Fáil spokesmen on local government, as it was then, challenged the figures produced by officials of the Department. As I said, I believe the officials of the Department are excellent people and honourable people. I am prepared to accept their figures. I am glad they said recently we have almost reached our target for 1977. I am sorry it was not completely reached.

From the amount of money being made available, despite a statement in the Minister's speech that he proposed to build 26,800 odd houses, I have very grave doubts about that. Nobody will be happier that I will be if the Government succeed in beating the target set, or go anywhere near it. In view of the fact that it appears obvious local authority houses will get a very low rating in departmental finance, I am under the impression that they will fall short pretty badly. I appeal to the Minister not to do what was done when the previous Coalition Government left office. It took Fianna Fáil only one year to drop from a maximum of 8,000 local authority houses to slightly over 1,000. That was a shocking situation and I am afraid something like that might happen again. Under no circumstances should it be allowed.

There was a lot of talk about £30 million being given for the purpose of building additional houses. It was said that the building industry would get an input of £30 million almost immediately. I have been looking around for that £30 million and I cannot find it. Certain figures were given. There was the question of £1,000 per house. A few months ago I asked a question about this in regard to my own constituency. I found 280 people had applied for it. One qualified and even he was not paid. Le conamh Dé I will be asking a question after Easter to find out what is happening.

The application form for this £1,000 per house is so phrased that it will be extremely difficult to qualify. Not only are you asked if you ever bought a house—I assume that means owned a house—but you are also asked did you or your wife ever own a house anywhere else. I can see officials of the Department having a grand old time travelling around Africa, Asia and America to find out whether somebody had bought a house there and had not said anything about it. If you do not give the reply to the question very definitely, and if you cannot prove what you say is true, you are in difficulty.

Before the election there was a great to-do about this £1,000. When challenged on television the present Taoiseach said he felt it would be very useful to put down as a deposit on a new house. How you pay a sum of money as a deposit on a new house which you do not get until you are living in it I have not been able to find out. I asked a few questions about it here and nobody seemed very clear as to how it could be done. I am sure there were hundreds and possibly thousands of people who thought all they had to do was to put their names down for a house, say they were building a new house, make an application, and they would get £1,000 and could get anything they liked with it. This sort of codology was fairly effective. I will be interested to know how the money will be spent. I notice the figure here of how much is being provided for it.

I am perfectly satisfied the amount of money we were given was not adequate. The money was not available in the early days because of the recession. Coming out of the recession I believed it would have been improved substantially this year. The extraordinary thing is that this £1,000 will be paid to anybody who builds a certain type of house. Whether this is the proper way to deal with these matters is something I have very grave doubts about. There are people who can well afford to build their own houses and there are people who require great assistance.

I notice the low rise mortgage scheme I introduced gets a passing reference. I hope the Department will not sit on it. This is one way in which they can help. When all the t's were crossed and all the i's dotted, it was not exactly the scheme I thought it would be. I hope a couple of changes will be made in it. I had intended to do this myself. One is that somebody who has been 12 months on the waiting list to qualify for the low rise mortgage scheme should not be required to have had a child for 12 months, a family of three. This is a mistake. My original idea was that people who were 12 months on the waiting list should be considered whether or not they had a child. I know it has been ruled that they must have had a child for 12 months. That is entirely wrong.

Secondly, people buying new local authority houses should be able to avail of this scheme. This is one way in which very expensive new houses could be included. I know it applies to many of them, but it has been ruled by a number of local authorities, and I assume by the Department, that some people who have been six or 12 months in a local authority house are ruled out. This is a mistake. It should be looked at again even if it is their first house.

Debate adjourned.
Business suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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