asked the Minister for Education the arrangements he is making to ensure that maximum class size in national schools will be 40 pupils; and the date or dates by which such an upper limit will become operative in all national schools.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers . - Primary and Post-Primary Education .
4.
: Monitoring of the organisational arrangements in national schools is part of the normal functions of the Department's inspectorate.
The maximum class size of forty pupils will not be made mandatory in all national schools until the planned further improvements in the pupil/ teacher ratio are effected over the next few years.
: Would the Minister agree that, in the light of the manifesto commitment to reduce maximum class sizes to 40, it would be reasonable of us in this House and people outside to expect that that would become effective during the term of office of the present Government? Will he give that assurance now?
: The variables are so many that I cannot give that kind of assurance.
: They were not so many before last June.
: The variables are always there. There is no explanation for explosion of population. I have been interrupted by Deputy Keating.
: I am sorry. The Minister provoked me.
: We want to get on with Question Time.
: I am sorry about the provocation. It is my firm resolution that what is asked be so, but I give no assurances and fix no dates.
: Is the Minister aware that there are over 170,000 children at present in classes of more than 40 and that at the present rate of improvement, the class size will not be reduced to the maximum of 40 during his term of office?
: I am aware of the figures quoted by the Deputy but I am aware also that there are more than 109,000 children in classes of fewer than 30 and that there are 3,741 children in classes of fewer than 15. I have an obligation to add to the teaching force and to try to deploy teachers so that the numbers in classes will be reduced to 40. That is my first obligation and I regard it as a sacred pact with the electorate.
: May we take it now that the undertaking in the manifesto to reduce class sizes to a maximum of 40 is being reneged on?
: There will be no reneging on that part of our policy as outlined in the manifesto nor will there be reneging on any other aspect of our policy either.
: What would the Minister do during the next general election campaign in the event of his failing to reduce class sizes to a maximum of 40?
: He would resign.
: Questions that are loaded with argument are not conducive to speeding up the Question Time procedure.
5.
asked the Minister for Education if he will take steps to discriminate in favour of schools in designated deprived areas in the matter of (1) teacher/pupil ratio; (2) administrative and clerical staff; and (3) school facilities; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
: The regulations governing teacher/pupil ratios, support staff and school facilities are of general application.
The Rutland Street National School Project in Dublin was in effect a special experimental educational measure discriminating in favour of a deprived area. The curriculum developed for this project is being used in special infant classes in seven selected schools to which additional teachers have been allocated.
: Therefore, may we take it that the teacher-pupil ratio in terms of its general application will not be interfered with in relation to deprived areas? In other words, it is not now the intention to establish a policy of a more favourable teacher-pupil ratio in schools in deprived areas other than the extent to which this is permitted by existing regulations?
: I have told the Deputy already that in selected areas, and mainly for purposes of research and experimentation in order to ascertain what can be done in this regard, seven schools are now operating a Rutland Street-type project. However, the Deputy is slightly off beam in relation to the teacher-pupil ratio because many of the schools in those areas have very good teacher-pupil ratios. There are other problems to be dealt with as well as that of the teacher-pupil ratio.
: While accepting the Minister's concern in these matters, I would remind him that he is on the record of the House on a number of occasions since the election as being willing to discriminate in favour of some of these schools. Practically speaking, what has that expression of willingness meant to date?
: It has meant allotting remedial teachers in individual cases and being flexible with regard even to pupil-teacher ratios. The Deputy knows the truth of that in some instances.
: When will the experiment be finished and will the results be published or made known to the House?
: The results of the major experiment were published some time ago and a second report is being prepared.
6.
asked the Minister for Education if he is in favour of the regionalisation of the administration of primary and post-primary education; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
: There are many complex aspects of this matter including due consideration of the views of the educational interests involved and the practical problems which would have to be solved.
I do not desire to make a statement in relation to it at present.
: Is the Minister aware that the previous Government took an initiative in this regard and is it his intention to put that initiative totally on the shelf?
: The Minister is so aware, but as is the case in respect of many of their initiatives it does not grab me at the moment.
: May we take it, therefore, that the Minister is not in favour of regionalisation?
: I said it does not grab me at the moment.
: Question No. 7.
: Perhaps the Minister would define that term for us.
: The "vibes" are not correct.