Deputy Quinn has been granted permission to raise the question of the breakdown in administrative arrangements between the Department of Justice and Dublin Corporation.
Adjournment Debate. - Dublin Traffic Wardens.
I apologise for holding the House and to the Minister for a further half hour. My query is prompted by the fact that Dublin City Council, for a variety of reasons, have now decided not to operate the rather inadequate system and arrangement of traffic wardens. One of the country's better cartoonists was prompted to make the observation that he hoped to have for Christmas one of those cars with winking eyes that enabled one to park anywhere. Anybody travelling around this city will see that Santa Claus has been unbelievably generous and has given these cars to everyone. We now have the spectacle of triple parked cars, all with winking lights, in Merrion Square, St. Stephen's Green and other parts of the city.
I do not think I am labouring the point when I say that the present position of traffic management in this city is so bad that people are despairing and in their despair Mike Murphy on RTE offers them consoling jokes as they sit locked in traffic jams, blocked by traffic, double parking and all the other inadequacies of the traffic management system. Ideally the person who should be in the Minister's bench tonight is the Minister responsible for transport. Earlier today the Minister for Justice had some harsh words to say about my observations which were made in the context of other legislation but the more he makes such remarks the more I believe I am beginning to score.
In fairness to the present Administration, this problem of administration is the product of a totally inadequate structure of transport policy, an inadequate structure that pre-dates the present Fianna Fáil Government and the previous Coalition Government. The fact that one can spread the blame so liberally does not in any way reduce the degree of urgency that confronts the city. In the last couple of weeks Dublin Corporation have decided to abandon the remaining part of their traffic warden system. The net effect of that has been to remove 20 odd traffic wardens who maintained some degree of order in ensuring the observance of traffic regulations on parking in the centre city area. We could go into the causes why that has come about but I would like to make some observations on the effects of that administrative breakdown. I am indebted to the Minister for his reply to a written question today in which he clearly set out the background to the present difficulty.
It would appear that there is a dispute with regard to the interpretation of the administration of the 1975 Traffic Wardens Act. The Garda Commissioner and corporation officials are not at one in their interpretation as to how best this system could be used. I am not being truculent but I would like the Minister to explain why this system has broken down. The Traffic Wardens Act, 1975, contains powers which were vested in the Garda Commissioner over the appointment of traffic wardens and those powers were sought by the Fianna Fáil Opposition—I checked this point with the then Minister for Local Government. I am open to correction on this, but I understand the Garda Commissioner has effectively sat on the application for the appointment of a further 20 odd wardens which was placed with him some time before the end of last year.
The reasons for that unsatisfactory situation relate to such matters as the Garda saying that if a traffic warden puts a ticket on a parked car the gardai have to bring the prosecutions and this means that some of their resources have to be tied up in court and they simply do not have those resources. What really throws this into clear focus is the role of the Garda Síochána in relation to traffic management. The responsibility for the management of moving and stationary traffic in our cities and towns is divided between local authorities and the gardaí, and consequently the Minister for Justice.
Traffic management is not the primary role of the Garda and no Deputy would argue such. I sympathise with the heavy administrative and legal role which the Minister and the Garda have with regard to more primary matters directly related to the role of the police force in our society. Given the difficulties that have arisen with regard to requests for overtime, extra foot patrols and all the additional police services aimed directly at providing an additional police presence, it is only natural that simultaneous requests from a local authority, in this instance the City Council, for gardaí to improve the system of traffic management must take second place in the order of priorities of the Garda Commissioner.
The city has been the victim of this. I do not think it is necessarily the fault of the Garda Commissioner or the Minister for Justice but I believe it throws into sharp and bitter relief the total chaos that now surrounds the transport policy of our cities generally and Dublin city in particular.
In his reply today the Minister stated that——
the Traffic Sub-Committee of Dublin Corporation have in fact decided to recommend to the City Council not to establish a traffic warden service in the city under the 1975 Act and that responsibility for the existing service should revert to the Garda Síochána. These recommendations are due to be considered by An Coiste Cuspóirí Coitean and the City Council. In the meantime, the situation is also being examined by the Garda authorities, the Department of the Environment and my Department.
During yet another review by the Government of 84 seats, what is going to happen to the traffic in Dublin city? During the interdepartmental discussions, no doubt ably augmented by representations from the 84 Fianna Fáil Deputies, what is going to be done about the movement of traffic in this city? Arising directly out of the Minister's written reply today, how long will this review take? When will it be completed? Will it make specific recommendations? Will these recommendations clearly define who is responsible for traffic management in this city, and therefore by implication within the country at large? Does the Minister have any observations or proposals with regard to the status of the 1975 Traffic Wardens Act? When will this Minister and this Government do anything about traffic and transport in this city?
I regret that I had to have the Minister for Justice here tonight. There are many more important matters that are properly the concern of the Department of Justice. I know—and this is most of the problem—that on top of everything else, to be bothered with the problems of Dublin's traffic difficulties is too much for the Department of Justice. The Garda Commissioner, for administrative reasons relating to the implementation of the scheme under the 1975 Act between the local authority and himself, sat on the request for additional traffic wardens. The traffic sub-committee, of which I was once a member, reckon that the city needs at least 100 traffic wardens to implement the existing traffic regulations in the centre city area. In order to implement the traffic regulations within the Dublin city administrative boundaries approximately 200 traffic wardens are required. If even two traffic wardens were allocated that would be a 100 per cent improvement. What proposals has the Minister got to give that 100 per cent improvement? The people who have to use urban transport every day are becoming more frustrated as time passes.
The traffic problem in Dublin city will not go away. Traffic management relates to the control of moving vehicles on our road system throughout the country. There has been a staggering increase in the number of vehicles registered in the last 18 months especially in the Dublin area. Deputy Smith might say that this is a great monument to the slogan of getting the country moving again. If he was stuck in a traffic jam in south County Dublin, as distinct from North Tipperary, he would see that there is absolutely no movement. Traffic in urban areas is moving at the rate of six miles per hour. That is a measure of Fianna Fáil progress. The problem will get worse rather than better because it is essentially a problem of traffic management.
The collapse of the traffic warden system is a symptom of a much greater problem. When we come back into office, which will be sonner than many people expect, traffic wardens will be taken away from the responsibility of the Minister for Justice. I am sure that will be a relief to a great many officials in Stephen's Green. What proposals has the Minister got to improve the traffic problem now that the traffic warden system has collapsed?
I thank Deputy Quinn for allowing me five minutes to explain the position regarding the management of the traffic problem in this city by Dublin Corporation. I am chairman of the traffic sub-committee which deals with this problem. Traffic conditions in Dublin at the moment are chaotic. During the bad weather I had to walk from Clontarf to the GPO which took me 40 minutes. I have done the same journey by car on numerous occasions since and it has taken me 45 minutes. This illustrates the traffic conditions in Dublin at present.
At the moment we have 15 traffic wardens and seven supervisors. The Minister has refused to appoint additional wardens because of a disagreement in relation to their duties. They were asked to deal with tax discs but they refused to do this. One might as well try to keep out the tide with a bucket on Dollymount Strand as to try to deal with the traffic problem in the Dublin city area with 22 wardens.
The traffic sub-committee recently sent a deputation to the Minister for Justice, which he was unable to meet. They met some officials from the Minister's Department and Mr. Doherty the Assistant Garda Commissioner. He said the divided responsibility whereby the traffic wardens are employed by Dublin Corporation but receive their instructions from the Garda authorities was unsatisfactory. While traffic wardens may fix tickets to cars which are parked in prohibited areas, parked on double yellow lines, parked on a clearway or parked too long in a parking area, they have no other powers. If somebody is causing an obstruction and holding up the traffic those wardens have absolutely no power to ask that person to move on. Those wardens are doing their duties as well as they can but 22 wardens in the city area are unable to help with the continual movement of traffic in that area. At a recent meeting with the traffic superintendent he expressed the view that it would be necessary, as Deputy Quinn has said, to have approximately 100 wardens within the city area to allow traffic to move in a normal manner, so we were faced with the responsibility that either we accepted full responsibility for the movement of traffic or we would hand back to the Gardai. In the circumstances the Minister will agree that we have no alternative but to hand back to the Gardaí.
Earlier today I gave a full reply to a written question that was on the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Quinn. There is not much I can usefully add to what I said in that reply.
The arrangement with Dublin Corporation, introduced in 1970, is one in which there is divided responsibility between the Corporation and the Gardaí and it has proved unsatisfatory in practice. It was intended to be a temporary arrangement which would end when the Traffic Wardens Act became law as it did in 1975. In the event, however, Dublin Corporation did not establish and operate their own traffic warden service as envisaged in that Act. Apart from that, the traffic wardens were demanding extra payment before agreeing to put "fine on the spot" notices on cars for failure to display a tax disc or, as it now is, a registration disc. For these and for other reasons the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána is dissatisfied with the position and he was not prepared, as long as circumstances remained as they were, to authorise the appointment of new wardens or to replace those who have left the service.
The corporation were asked by my Department last October to decide whether they intended to set up and operate a service under the 1975 Act and, as Deputy Belton said, they requested a meeting with me and officials in the Department and with the Garda Síochána on 16 October last if my memory is correct. He was not able to be present, nor was I, but the meeting was at a proper level and I understand that only very recently, on 31 January, the corporation traffic sub-committee reached a decision on the matter as far as they were concerned. I gather that that decision, as was said earlier on to-day, goes to the general purposes committee. An Coiste Cuspóirí Coitean, of the corporation on 19 February and from there it goes to the City Council meeting on 5 March 1979 for final decision by the corporation. I am assured that as soon as the corporation make that decision the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána will be glad to provide the service that the corporation were not able to provide since 1975.
There were a number of questions asked by Deputy Quinn during the course of his 15-minute contribution. I think they have been answered because it will be obvious to him at this stage that he has not got all the facts. Dublin Council have not decided yet not to operate the traffic warden system. Deputy Quinn asked why the system has broken down. It cannot have been necessary for him to ask that question because the system never got off the ground.
The situation has certainly got worse.
Mr. Collins
The system did not even get off the ground to get worse. I will ignore the Deputy's political teasings about parties with 84 seats and so on. That does not help to make a case and the Deputy should know that by now. The Deputy need not have any great sympathy with me because I am the Minister responsible for this area, the innuendo being that I am too busy to deal with such a matter. This is not so. Indeed the Deputy is probably aware that only ten days or so ago, on 25 January, I had a meeting with the Dublin Chamber of Commerce at a function which they organised. I raised this matter with them and I told them that I hoped that progress was being made rather quickly in this area because I too am convinced, as any sane person must be who has to use the roads in and out of Dublin every morning and evening, that there is a very serious situation with the frustrations and everything else that people have to undergo morning and evening now. I do not know how Deputy Quinn got the idea that the whole thing collapsed in the last few weeks. Perhaps the bus strike must have something to do with that but it is no better and no worse this week than it was last week.
As Dublin Corporation take a final decision on 5 March when this meeting is held then I would like to assure both Deputies Quinn and Belton that within a very short time after the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána will be very glad to provide the service that the corporation was not able to provide for the last number of years.
Would that involve extra gardaí being made available for traffic management?
Mr. Collins
If the service is to be provided by the Garda Síochána naturally it will mean that there will be a drain on manpower from some other source. That is one of the very great pities about the fact that the corporation could not do this job as we would have liked them to do it. I would further say, since I am on my feet again, that a number of local authorities have already adopted the provision of the 1975 Act and are working it quite well.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 February 1979.